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Seedpicker,

 

Being a US Navy veteran, wife an Army veteran, and having a son that is in the Army an due to be deployed to Irag much too soon for our liking, I want to say THANK YOU for placing this cache and allowing me to read the nice posts on your cache page.

 

As long standings members of the American Legion I am tempted to place a cache near our local chapter hall along the same lines.

 

As for an agenda I just don't see it.

 

I hope this cache continues to get many visitors in the future. Let the cache stay.

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Speaking of personal issue, I believe it's totally inappropriate (and against forum guidelines, I'm rather sure) to be posting someone's email to you in the forums, as well as yours to them, not that you didn't give yourself permission to post your own here. :D
I don't think so. IF a reviewer sends an email regarding a specific cache, he/she is aware that the issue may end up being taken to the forums. At such time, the communication regarding the issue will be relevent to the thread and should be included in the thread.

 

I think that it's important to remember that an email from a reviewer about a cache is not personal correspondence, it's business correspondence (even though their pay stinks).

I think the reference was to the posted email from the Iraq Vet who found the cache and sent emails to the Cache owner. I agree, these emails should not have been posted in the forums.

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I seldom do this... I am a firm beleiver that this is groundspeaks site and what they say goes.

 

However, assuming there is not something going on that we don't know about, this seems to be something that deserves a little customer descent.

 

I suggest that caches start appearing all over the country with the exact same text! Whoops... now THATS an agenda

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I'm not seeing an agenda either. Its a quick "thanks to the troops" and three sentences that explain the history of the American Legion. Which I liked learning about.

 

It would be interesting to know what this perceived "agenda" is, exactly? Does it have to do with support for the troops or with the American Legion or with war in general or with invoking the name of a diety or with the concept of freedom or ???? I have seen references to all of these topics on various cache pages at one time or another. Perhaps a reviewer could point to the specific word or phrase that is causing the problem, and then that particular small snippet could be edited out of the description, thus allowing the cache owner to retain the overall feeling of, for lack of a better word, "thankfulness" of the cache.

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Shoot, if that description saying you're proud of your children and thanking the troops is promoting and agenda, maybe I should worry about my caches where I talk about the park they're in.

 

I have a bunch of caches in this beautiful park that the state took back from industry, and cleaned up. On the cache pages I talk about how great this is that there's no longer toxic waste there, and even go so far as to encourage CITO and promote camera use :D:D

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Speaking of personal issue, I believe it's totally inappropriate (and against forum guidelines, I'm rather sure) to be posting someone's email to you in the forums, as well as yours to them, not that you didn't give yourself permission to post your own here. :D
I don't think so. IF a reviewer sends an email regarding a specific cache, he/she is aware that the issue may end up being taken to the forums. At such time, the communication regarding the issue will be relevent to the thread and should be included in the thread.

 

I think that it's important to remember that an email from a reviewer about a cache is not personal correspondence, it's business correspondence (even though their pay stinks).

I think the reference was to the posted email from the Iraq Vet who found the cache and sent emails to the Cache owner. I agree, these emails should not have been posted in the forums.

 

Actually I don't think there are any rules specifically regarding that in my recollection of the guidelines.

 

Personally, I don't send anything to anyone in e-mail that I don't want printed or posted publicly. People shouldn't assume e-mail correspondence with anyone will remain private.

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im not supporting any agenda, or even suggesting anyone joins the legion.. Just tring to honor my two children serving. my cache is gc16hm9 sibling soldiers II.

 

Can anyone help me?

I've thought about this some more and am beginning to see the reviewer's side here.

 

Examples have been given in other threads that say you can place a tribute cache in memory of friend who died of cancer but you can't then suggest contributing to the American Cancer Society - or even mention the ACS - without risking violating the agenda clause.

 

You can cleary place a cache in honor of your children serving. You can place a cache outside an American Legion Post and include some factual statements of about the Legion. You probably can even have the agenda of supporting our troups or thanking them for serving - its a bit like saying you should do CITO when caching or avoid harming the environment. But when you put these together like you did, it comes across as asking us to promote the American Legion.

 

Perhaps we don't agree with the American Legion on certain issues. Or maybe we do and its just that they wouldn't give us permission to hide a cache in the base of their flagpole. The American Legion is clearly an organization that has an agenda and it goes beyond just being a social club for veterans or marching in patriotic parades.

 

I would work with the reviewer to find acceptable wording for your cache page. And if this cache was re-reviewed because someone was trying to get it archived then sock it to them by bringing the cache page into compliance with the guidelines.

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I seldom do this... I am a firm beleiver that this is groundspeaks site and what they say goes.

 

However, assuming there is not something going on that we don't know about, this seems to be something that deserves a little customer descent.

 

I suggest that caches start appearing all over the country with the exact same text! Whoops... now THATS an agenda

 

That's a good point, but sometimes I wonder if Groundspeak forgets who keeps them in business. Too bad there will always be a new supply of customers, that means there is no need for accountability to the existing customers.

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This should be handled via communication with TPTB. Email the contact@ address and ask if some middle ground can be found.
I can't agree with that completely. These discussions do not need to be kept in the closet. Other Cachers need to know what will and will not be accepted, and if the discussion is handled only through the Hider and the Reviewer/Groundspeak then no one else will ever know what the limits are, thus allowing Groundspeak/Reviewers/Moderators to quietly promote their OWN AGENDAS by keeping the discussions out of the public eye.
I'm not sure, but I believe that the official process is:
  1. Reviewer
  2. TPTB
  3. Forums

I'm not sure on the official process either, but all three are now involved, so I guess it's all good.

 

I feel that since the cache was already published and then seems to have become a problem, the request to change it after the fact should have come directly from Groundspeak and bypassed the Reviewer at that stage.

I don't know about that. If a cache was published and later found to be a clear violation of the rules, the local reviewer would likely be the one to archive it.

 

BTW, according to the guidelines, I was wrong. The process is:

  • reviewer
  • ask reviewer to ask other reviewers
  • forum
  • appeals

Edited by sbell111
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Speaking of personal issue, I believe it's totally inappropriate (and against forum guidelines, I'm rather sure) to be posting someone's email to you in the forums, as well as yours to them, not that you didn't give yourself permission to post your own here. :D
I don't think so. IF a reviewer sends an email regarding a specific cache, he/she is aware that the issue may end up being taken to the forums. At such time, the communication regarding the issue will be relevent to the thread and should be included in the thread.

 

I think that it's important to remember that an email from a reviewer about a cache is not personal correspondence, it's business correspondence (even though their pay stinks).

I think the reference was to the posted email from the Iraq Vet who found the cache and sent emails to the Cache owner. I agree, these emails should not have been posted in the forums.

Thanks for the clarification. I actually was going to cover that in my reply, but I thought it would only confuse the issue.

 

That being said, I don't believe that you have any expectation of confidentiality when you email someone, so as long as the person's email address wasn't given, I have no problem with the email being posted.

Edited by sbell111
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Speaking of personal issue, I believe it's totally inappropriate (and against forum guidelines, I'm rather sure) to be posting someone's email to you in the forums, as well as yours to them, not that you didn't give yourself permission to post your own here. :D
I don't think so. IF a reviewer sends an email regarding a specific cache, he/she is aware that the issue may end up being taken to the forums. At such time, the communication regarding the issue will be relevent to the thread and should be included in the thread.

 

I think that it's important to remember that an email from a reviewer about a cache is not personal correspondence, it's business correspondence (even though their pay stinks).

I think the reference was to the posted email from the Iraq Vet who found the cache and sent emails to the Cache owner. I agree, these emails should not have been posted in the forums.

 

Actually I don't think there are any rules specifically regarding that in my recollection of the guidelines.

 

Personally, I don't send anything to anyone in e-mail that I don't want printed or posted publicly. People shouldn't assume e-mail correspondence with anyone will remain private.

I agree, I would never have written things like that in an email. I wonder if that guy has suffered some injury that has hampered his social communication skills.

 

"I'm super tough, and if you don't like the way I talk to you, then you're just a retarded lamo, and I'll rip your guts out"

 

That's the kind of communication I hear all day long from uneducated truck drivers on the CB

 

Me: How about dimming those brights, driver?

 

Driver: shut up crybaby(or stupid, or whiner, etc)

 

sounds just like that guy.

Edited by WRITE SHOP ROBERT
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Speaking of personal issue, I believe it's totally inappropriate (and against forum guidelines, I'm rather sure) to be posting someone's email to you in the forums, as well as yours to them, not that you didn't give yourself permission to post your own here. :D
I don't think so. IF a reviewer sends an email regarding a specific cache, he/she is aware that the issue may end up being taken to the forums. At such time, the communication regarding the issue will be relevent to the thread and should be included in the thread.

 

I think that it's important to remember that an email from a reviewer about a cache is not personal correspondence, it's business correspondence (even though their pay stinks).

I think the reference was to the posted email from the Iraq Vet who found the cache and sent emails to the Cache owner. I agree, these emails should not have been posted in the forums.

 

Actually I don't think there are any rules specifically regarding that in my recollection of the guidelines.

 

Personally, I don't send anything to anyone in e-mail that I don't want printed or posted publicly. People shouldn't assume e-mail correspondence with anyone will remain private.

 

Also, it looks like a lot of people have found your cache since him. He isn't neccessarily the person who emailed TPTB, just b/c he was the one who complained about the cache..

 

Some people who disagree with the cache will post an SBA and some people will privately email the reviewer while logging the cache "tftc, tnln" to avoid just this kind of conflict.

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The text portion that needs to be removed is, "I would like to thank all those who served before, currently serving and those who will serve in the future. God's speed to you! Thank-you for our FREEDOM! The American Legion was chartered by Congress in 1919 as a patriotic, mutual-help, war-time veterans organization. A community-service organization which now numbers nearly 3 million members -- men and women -- in nearly 15,000 American Legion Posts worldwide. These Posts are organized into 55 Departments -- one each for the 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, France, Mexico, and the Philippines."

 

 

The cache owner does not ask people to support the American Legion. She does not even ask people to support or thank the troops. She states that SHE would like to thank the troops, and then wishes the troops well, and then provides some historical backgroound about the American Legion, the premisies upon which the cache is located.

 

How does this differ from me hiding a cache that gives some brief history about my church (the oldest church of that denomination in our community) if the reverend kindly allows me to hide a cache in the parking lot behind the building? I might even hide it near a memorial to a local soldier who died in a war, and might thank him and all his comrades at arms for fighting to preserve our freedom. Would this also be perceived as promoting some sort of agenda?

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... sometimes I wonder if Groundspeak forgets who keeps them in business.

 

Excellent point!

 

I don't know what motivates this "agenda" and "commercial" guideline enforcement lately. Sometimes I wonder if the head knows what the middle finger is doing ... or even cares.

 

Don't blame the reviewer. He is just enforcing the guideline "flavor of the month". He is an unpaid volunteer who often gets the short end of the stick in these situations.

 

My bet is that if you kick this upstairs for a review with TPTB that you won't get any further than you did with your reviewer.

 

Your solution will be to follow the lead of event listings lately. Put a link on the cache page to an off site webpage where you can talk about it all you like. Google will let you do this free with Google Page Creator.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

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Also, it looks like a lot of people have found your cache since him. He isn't neccessarily the person who emailed TPTB, just b/c he was the one who complained about the cache..

 

Some people who disagree with the cache will post an SBA and some people will privately email the reviewer while logging the cache "tftc, tnln" to avoid just this kind of conflict.

 

Not sure where the "your" cache comes into play.

 

My point is merely that no one should ever assume e-mail correspondence is private. And, there is far cry difference from what is e-mailed in this exchange versus what a more polite intentioned person would be trying to avoid versus logging their frustration.

 

Frankly, judging by the content of the e-mail, I don't feel sorry for someone that gets rewarded with that posted publicly. Just my opinion.

Edited by egami
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Wow,

 

For my first forum, i sure started something...

 

When i first put this cache out, I was unsuccessfull in wining the battle to keep the phrase, "Support your troops, and we Will win the war" after several emails from the moderator, he convinced me it had to go and regardless his beliefs or feelings it was simply not allowed.. that decision was without any discrunted cachers oppinion to factor in... I DID/Do also have strong feelings about our servicemen and winning the war instead of stopping the war... any soldier swears to complete his mission at all cost. That is their job.. to support your troops and stop the war is an oximoron during time of war... I tried to stand firm, but folded because my beleifs may differ from yours. I excepted that...

 

This is different... so yes, i will keep fighting for the principle of the matter , i agree Groundspeak should either better clairify "agenda" over all or eliminate 1000's of other caches..( which i could complain about) Maybe the "other moderator" should of had better judgement before reacting on an unhappy cachers word and maybe my moderator should of had better judgement??? Im not blaming him, but he does seem to be in the middle now... but im in front of the firing squad ...

 

 

you guys who responded are awsome!!... I do humbly thank you again for all the infor an help . And YES "Thank A Vet"..... Always!

 

I have a mission now........

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Now i hope we dont make this an privacy issue... none of these emails had confidencial attatched to them... not to much i know you put out on the net is private.. emails are admissable in court as evidence.. I am not tring to get the moderator in trouble, but i want to know if this issue is from Groundspeak or a cacher who doesnt care what he carlessly says to another cacher. then goes a step furthur to interfere in someone eles life without regard. I am not ashamed of anything i ever put up on the geo page or am tring to hide anything... all emails are attatched word for word... cut an pasted... i didnt edit anything to make them look bad or to make me look better. why should Groundspeak hide? . since when is this geocachers " log everything online" I think the pghlooking has a big enough ego to carry him thru. He isnt worried.. especially if he is friends with his moderator... i dont want nothing hidden ... i want to the bottom of this! lies and deception are not of my habit! my only intention with this forum was to appeal to help so i dont lose the essance of my cache... ... i mide as well scrap it then!

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...That being said, I don't believe that you have any expectation of confidentiality when you email someone, so as long as the person's email address wasn't given, I have no problem with the email being posted.

 

This isn't in responce to your post, but the email in general.

99% of emails I get read and hit the bit bucket. The ones that threaten me I publish. The ones that cross a line (my own intrepretation of the line applies) get quoted. I do not sweep things under the carpet that need exposed. If Joe Cacher is an SOB and makes threats then Joe Cacher can back up his email when it's put in a forum. If Earnie Eagle Beak wants to trash my cache, tell me I don't know cache schitt from schinola and suggest I'm screwing up my placments against the spirit of the activity, then Earnie Eagle Beak can back up his nose poking in public as well.

 

Most emails are fine. Comments on threads, something off topic spun out of a thread, questions about some point or another, request for clarification on something and the like. No need to do anything but reply. There are a few though that deserve different treatment. Pretty much anything where the sender is relying on societies penchant for sweeping trouble under the rug to ply their trade.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Also, it looks like a lot of people have found your cache since him. He isn't neccessarily the person who emailed TPTB, just b/c he was the one who complained about the cache..

 

Some people who disagree with the cache will post an SBA and some people will privately email the reviewer while logging the cache "tftc, tnln" to avoid just this kind of conflict.

Not sure where the "your" cache comes into play.

 

Meaning a lot of people found it since him, any one of them could have contacted the reviewer, I don't know that his log and correspondance neccessarily have anything to do with the cache being re-reviewed.

 

Actually I believe the reviewer said that in his email "That request came from another cacher and another reviewer."

 

I'd think that someone who wouldn't be afraid to say what he thinks in his log, wouldn't be afraid to post an SBA saying why anyway.

 

My point is merely that no one should ever assume e-mail correspondence is private. And, there is far cry difference from what is e-mailed in this exchange versus what a more polite intentioned person would be trying to avoid versus logging their frustration.

 

Frankly, judging by the content of the e-mail, I don't feel sorry for someone that gets rewarded with that posted publicly. Just my opinion.

Likewise, a more polite intentioned person might try to avoid "rewarding" somebody by posting it publicly.

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Its not that the passage is offensive. It's not political correctness run amok. It's just that the reviewer felt that the cache was promoting an agenda. That isn't allowed, no matter how worthy the agenda is. Of course there is nothing wrong at all with supporting our fighting men and women in this country, but a cache listing is not the place to do it.

Not a getting started issue so moving to the general forum

 

 

I did a keyword search for "troops" and counted about 27 "Support our Troops" caches. I did another for "God bless" and found about ten "God Bless America'" caches. I found four "Breast Cancer Awareness" caches listed. In light of that, I have to wonder if this cache is being singled out because of a personal "agenda."

 

Note: I only choose those topics because they came to mind quickly...I have no political motives for singling them out! In my opinion, all of the abovementioned ideas are fine as cache themes.

 

Well if that isn't a bumper sticker/agenda there....if you can search and find 27 "support our troops" and 10 -"god Bless america" Geez the agenda is right there, you don't even have to open up the cache page.

 

Was that post ever responded too?

 

I really think your cache should stand as it was with no changes. Mentioning the American Legion isn't going to change my mind on weather or not I am going to hunt for the cache or boycott gc.com. I do understand their no agenda policy. However, they need to look at cache names as well, they offer a very subtle agenda.

 

With that being said, I was planning on hitting the AGT caches this summer, I would have really thought there would have been a significant hike along some great trails (which is what I am really looking for when I cache), this may have caused some uneasy feelings...but you do mention "cache and dash" - (not sure if that was recently updated on cache page) so I couldn't be too disappointed(I could have skipped it).

 

From the logs it sounds as though most were surprised to find it so easy or happy it was. They are getting their stamps and rolling on to the next cache AGT cache. Which is what I feel the AGT geocaches are meant for. Would I make it to those areas had there been no caches and coins to be had :D

 

CACHE ON PEOPLE, PLAY THE GAME AS YOU LIKE :D

 

I am hoping the cacher's displeasure over the cache and the re-review are coincidental in nature and not something more :)

 

Steel City Babes

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Speaking of personal issue, I believe it's totally inappropriate (and against forum guidelines, I'm rather sure) to be posting someone's email to you in the forums, as well as yours to them, not that you didn't give yourself permission to post your own here. :D
I don't think so. IF a reviewer sends an email regarding a specific cache, he/she is aware that the issue may end up being taken to the forums. At such time, the communication regarding the issue will be relevent to the thread and should be included in the thread.

 

I think that it's important to remember that an email from a reviewer about a cache is not personal correspondence, it's business correspondence (even though their pay stinks).

I think the reference was to the posted email from the Iraq Vet who found the cache and sent emails to the Cache owner. I agree, these emails should not have been posted in the forums.

Thanks for the clarification. I actually was going to cover that in my reply, but I thought it would only confuse the issue.

 

That being said, I don't believe that you have any expectation of confidentiality when you email someone, so as long as the person's email address wasn't given, I have no problem with the email being posted.

 

OK, I'm the one who started that about the email being posted (I think I was). I still don't like it :D , but you have a point, as long as their email address wasn't posted.

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First, the reviewer looks like they are caught between a rock and a hard place. Keep that in mind as this plays out.

True, it looks like he/she was given a direct order by Groundspeak. I don't think we can blame the reviewer for anything in this case.

 

Second the other cacher should not be in the business of second guessing the cache and should not have asked for it to be re-reviewed. That's bunk. If the cache is a clear and present problem then yes absolutely solve the problem ASAP. That's not the case here. It's a cacher's own interpretation of the rules not agreeing with the original reviewer and cache owners interpretation and so they called in the big guns.

I disagree with this point because a cache owner has the ability to edit the cache description after approval. All cachers have a responsibility to help by reporting rules violations. I AGREE with the opinion that this is not an obvious case of rules violations

 

If we caching public were good at interpeting the rules we would not argue about them in the forums. The forums would be happy happy joy joy.

Now where's the fun in that?

 

I did a keyword search for "troops" and counted about 27 "Support our Troops" caches. I did another for "God bless" and found about ten "God Bless America'" caches. I found four "Breast Cancer Awareness" caches listed. In light of that, I have to wonder if this cache is being singled out because of a personal "agenda."

If the cache that started this thread is forcibly archived, then I suggest posting all the the waypoints you found here, or better yet, reporting all of them as promoting an agenda. Technically, from what you said, they all blatantly violate the Guidelines. The only way to get Groundspeak to change anything is with loud and repeated demands with 95% or better agreement. Anything else is ignored as whinyness. If 41 (or more) popular caches are archived for "Agenda Promotion" then maybe the outcry will result in a change in the "Guidelines".
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I suppose I am reading all this and seeing both sides of the fence. I doubt the original cacher complaining about the type of cache is the complainer... it is all coincidental. It sounds like that individual was just angry it was "an ammo can hidden under the stairs" .... and my guess is that person doesn't do a lot of caches cuz for me, I've grabbed a lot of "ammo boxes hidden in tree stumps" or "under logs" - 95% of the caches I've found are not "creative."

 

Now, as for the agenda. Ok, I can see how a reviewer would see something this slight as an agenda. Thanking troops and God.... But, its her thanking them, not her telling us we have to thank them or show our support for the troops or for God. It is HER tribute to her children. The reviewer has something very specific and I am curious if reviewers are not allowing personal opinion leak into what they choose to publish and not to publish. No, I'm not saying all reviewers - but perhaps some allow their opinion to sway their thoughts on a cache.

 

I think if the reviewer is going to bring this to the table as an agenda and archive it, then ALL of Groundspeak must start searching and archiving because as mentioned, there are a TON of cache pages out there that have an EXPLICIT agenda and aren't shy of sharing it. These include troop support, God, diseases and research. And yes, I agree that CITO is an explicit agenda as well so all those cache pages with links or images for CITO need archived as well. If something as simple as a thank you is an agenda,.... well, you get the point. According to the guidelines, all of these need removed regardless of if we agree or disagree with the agenda.

 

Heck - if you really want to think about if... if a cache simply mentions wanting to take you somewhere you probably have never been before - that's an agenda. But, isn't that what caching is pretty much built on?

 

We have a virtual cache here in Springfield called the Oak Ridge Tour and the purpose is to get people to walk around a large cemetary and visit the memorial's to the soldiers (Vietnam War, WWII, Korean War) and Lincoln's Tomb. Would this need to be taken down as well because not only does it promote visiting a local cemetary with monuments but the questions asked promote education? What a terrible agenda, huh? *rolls eyes*

 

I personally have NO problem with this cache listing. As a mother, I feel I should be able to place a cache in honor of my children for whatever makes me proud of them be it sports, academia, or military service. By the appeal process, one of the listed means was to post on the forums and get feedback from your fellow cachers.... my feedback is "Let this cache stand as is... a cache where the woman thanks her children and gives information about the American Legion.

Edited by Carbon_n_kids
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It seems to me that pghlooking was not originally objecting to the cache wording other than not "promoting" the Allegheny National Forest (is that an agenda?). pghlooking objected to the quality of the hide and the cache. I would guess that if the organizers of the AGT didn't object to the cache, then it should be allowed to stand as an AGT cache. It appears that this is one cacher's opinion out of a total of 153 cachers who have logged a find. I'm sure that every cacher has come across caches that he/she found boring or uninspired. That's no reason for ripping into the hider or going further to challenge the cache with the reviewer and Groundspeak. When I find an uninspired cache I don't criticize the hider in the log or by e-mail. I certainly will thank the hider of an interesting cache and the ones that I find that are most unique I will place on my bookmark list of favorite caches.

 

I wouldn't criticize the reviewer. The reviewer did his job and consulted with Groundspeak and according to the reviewer the directive came directly from Groundspeak. Like it or not this is Groundspeak's site and if they rule that the text should be changed or the cache archived, you have to abide by their decision to change the text or have the cache archived.

 

I hope Groundspeak reconsiders their ruling. Personally, I did not find anything offensive or promoting an agenda in the wording of the cache. It seems that pghlooking's primary objection was that he thought that the cache was lame and his secondary objection was that a cache that honored the troops shouldn't be, in his opinion, a lame cache.

 

The reviewers have a difficult time especially when it seems that the target (i.e. what is acceptable) is always moving. Certainly, this sport is growing and evolving day by day and the guidelines must change with it, but it sure makes it frustrating for those of us who hide caches to keep up with all the rulings from TPTB.

 

Personally, I like caches that tell a story or have some of the hider's personality in them. Otherwise, I think that the descriptions would evolve into so much pablum.

 

Best of luck on your appeal and if your appeal fails, I hope you stay in the game and know that there are many in the geocaching community who support you, support your children, and support the troops.

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I would work with the reviewer to find acceptable wording for your cache page. And if this cache was re-reviewed because someone was trying to get it archived then sock it to them by bringing the cache page into compliance with the guidelines.

 

I wouldn't. We've been shown several caches that have similar tributes and are apparently without agenda. If there is no agenda there or here, then what has to be changed?

 

If this one is changed, I'd expect the rest of those easily found tribute caches to be changed as well. All of them.

 

After all: "The thing is that if you allow one worthy agenda, the next person comes along with his worthy agenda. Then you get into a debate as to what is worthy. "

 

Please let us know how this turns out.

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It's a cache, change some text and move on. :D

Continue that mindset when you're hunting caches as well. If it's a cache you don't like for any reason, ignore it...

dfc0l.jpg

...and move on.

 

Speaking of moving on...

 

I like all caches, that's why I enjoy this hobby so much... thanks for the tip though. My point was that nobody has to use geocaching.com for their caches, but the ones who choose to do so need to go by their rules... however they see fit to enforce them. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't pay the bills here either.

 

PS, I brought up the email issue a while back but nobody commented on it until it was mentioned again... I get no credit!

 

:rolleyes:

 

:laughing:

Edited by XopherN71
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It's a cache, change some text and move on. :laughing:

 

She's a mom, they're her kids. I don't know if she (or I, in her place) would be able to do that!

No one asked her to remove the sentence that the cache is placed in honor of her kids. She was specifically asked to change the following wording:

 

"I would like to thank all those who served before, currently serving and those who will serve in the future. God's speed to you! Thank-you for our FREEDOM! The American Legion was chartered by Congress in 1919 as a patriotic, mutual-help, war-time veterans organization. A community-service organization which now numbers nearly 3 million members -- men and women -- in nearly 15,000 American Legion Posts worldwide. These Posts are organized into 55 Departments -- one each for the 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, France, Mexico, and the Philippines."

 

It's not clear that thanking the troops or wishing Godspeed is the problem or even providing some facts about the American Legion. I believe the problem is putting these together in one paragraph which makes it appear to be a solicitation to support the activities of the American Legions - even though it does specifically call this out.

 

Cf.

This cache is in honor of my friend who is a cancer survivor.

 

Medical researchers have made great progress in recent years in developing new techniques for fighting cancer and increasing the survival rates of cancer patients and I want to thank the doctors and others for their effort. The American Cancer Society is a nationwide community-based voluntary health organization dedicated to eliminating cancer as a major health problem by preventing cancer, saving lives, and diminishing suffering from cancer, through research, education, advocacy and service.

Is this soliciting contributions to the American Cancer Society? Does it push an agenda to support the work of the American Cancer Society? The guidelines purposely doesn't specify whether an agenda is good or bad. Caches can't be used to promote any agenda unless Groundspeak makes an exception. I believe that the OP could work with the reviewer to find wording that is acceptable that doesn't give the appearance of pushing an agenda.

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Is there any reason you can't list this cache with one of the other cache listing sites? Could you edit the cache description to appear the way the reviewer's wish it to be, but provide a link to the other sites it's listed on and then on the other sites describe it anyway you want, provided it's allowed.

Just curious if that's OK or if it breaks some rule here?

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Hmmmm rewording you say....

 

---

This cache is placed in honor of my children who are serving in the US Armed Forces. I am proud of what they are doing and want to thank all who have served or are serving.

 

The American Legion was chartered by Congress in 1919 as a patriotic, mutual-help, war-time veterans organization. A community-service organization which now numbers nearly 3 million members -- men and women -- in nearly 15,000 American Legion Posts worldwide. These Posts are organized into 55 Departments -- one each for the 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, France, Mexico, and the Philippines.

 

God speed to you all!

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Hmmmm rewording you say....

 

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This cache is placed in honor of my children who are serving in the US Armed Forces. I am proud of what they are doing and want to thank all who have served or are serving.

 

The American Legion was chartered by Congress in 1919 as a patriotic, mutual-help, war-time veterans organization. A community-service organization which now numbers nearly 3 million members -- men and women -- in nearly 15,000 American Legion Posts worldwide. These Posts are organized into 55 Departments -- one each for the 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, France, Mexico, and the Philippines.

 

God speed to you all!

Possibly. More likely

 

This is a easy dash and cache located at the Meadville post of an organization chartered by Congress in 1919 as a patriotic, mutual-help, war-time veterans organization. A community-service organization which now numbers nearly 3 million members -- men and women -- in nearly 15,000 Posts worldwide. These Posts are organized into 55 Departments -- one each for the 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, France, Mexico, and the Philippines.

 

This cache is placed in honor of my children who are serving in the US Armed Forces and this is a tribute to them, their bravery and sevice to our country. I would like to thank all those who served before, currently serving and those who will serve in the future. God's speed to you! Thank-you for our FREEDOM!

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This is RIDICULOUS!!! :laughing::rolleyes::D

 

First of all, I am not a veteran, and do not have any agenda to promote. My opinion of this cache is NOT swayed by my emotions, or opinions regarding the war, the troops, religion, etc. I am looking at this objectively.

 

To pghlooking - you are not a good person. Yes, some caches are what you would call 'Lame', but some are not. That is what allows Geocaching to be a great FAMILY activity - my 5 year old doesn't do too well at finding micros with a difficulty of 5. But loves the fun of finding a nice cache by himself, and I like that he can be exposed to different organizations, activities, sights, landmarks, etc. It seems to me that this is supposed to be a fun activity for ALL to enjoy, and if you think the cache is 'lame', then don't find any more of this person's caches. YES you are entitled to your opinion, but there is a thing called discretion and common courtesy. phglooking, I believe you are just a mean spirited person. (I am being honest like you prefer!!!)

 

To Groundspeak - if any of the TPTB's read this - my family is new to Geocaching (160 finds/1 hide), and have really enjoyed it. Personally one of the main reasons we enjoy it is that we can learn about things in the area we are caching in. A cache called 'Geocache' with a description of 'This is a hidden container with a log to sign, and other items' wouldn't be much fun. I too have seen many caches that would fall under the same guidlines as this one, and feel that you will lose MANY caches if you archive any that 'COULD' have an agenda. (by the way, you may need to archive my hide - The Intimidator, as it has a Dale Earnhardt theme, and probably promotes the agenda of introducing people to NASCAR, and even asks people to name their favorite driver in their log!)

 

I feel that the issue here is one of the biggest problems with our country (USA) today - if one person MIGHT be offended by something, it must change!!! This is wrong. Differences in our opinions, beliefs, likes and dislikes is what makes our world great - why are we trying to rid the world of those differences?

 

By the way, the wording is NOT promoting an agenda - I would agree with the original title (maybe), but the text quoted is NOT a problem. Just a mother thanking troops, and stating facts about an organization. I, for one, like that caches are owned by individuals, and not TPTB. It is what makes this interesting.

 

Please do not archive this - one thing about freedom is that we all have the freedom to not geocache if it offends us!!!

 

I could go on forever, and already have....

 

Leave this and other caches alone!!!!!!

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This is a easy dash and cache located at the Meadville post of an organization chartered by Congress in 1919 as a patriotic, mutual-help, war-time veterans organization. A community-service organization which now numbers nearly 3 million members -- men and women -- in nearly 15,000 Posts worldwide. These Posts are organized into 55 Departments -- one each for the 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, France, Mexico, and the Philippines.

 

This cache is placed in honor of my children who are serving in the US Armed Forces and this is a tribute to them, their bravery and sevice to our country. I would like to thank all those who served before, currently serving and those who will serve in the future. God's speed to you! Thank-you for our FREEDOM!

 

:rolleyes: THAT'S AN AGENDA!! :D OOOOOOOOOO...I'M TELLING!! :laughing:

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Hmmmm rewording you say....

 

---

This cache is placed in honor of my children who are serving in the US Armed Forces. I am proud of what they are doing and want to thank all who have served or are serving.

 

The American Legion was chartered by Congress in 1919 as a patriotic, mutual-help, war-time veterans organization. A community-service organization which now numbers nearly 3 million members -- men and women -- in nearly 15,000 American Legion Posts worldwide. These Posts are organized into 55 Departments -- one each for the 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, France, Mexico, and the Philippines.

 

God speed to you all!

 

That reads better. By separating the 2 sentences, the history of the legion does not imply endorsement of the first sentence.

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It's a cache, change some text and move on. :rolleyes:

 

She's a mom, they're her kids. I don't know if she (or I, in her place) would be able to do that!

No one asked her to remove the sentence that the cache is placed in honor of her kids. She was specifically asked to change the following wording:

 

"I would like to thank all those who served before, currently serving and those who will serve in the future. God's speed to you! Thank-you for our FREEDOM! The American Legion was chartered by Congress in 1919 as a patriotic, mutual-help, war-time veterans organization. A community-service organization which now numbers nearly 3 million members -- men and women -- in nearly 15,000 American Legion Posts worldwide. These Posts are organized into 55 Departments -- one each for the 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, France, Mexico, and the Philippines."

 

It's not clear that thanking the troops or wishing Godspeed is the problem or even providing some facts about the American Legion. I believe the problem is putting these together in one paragraph which makes it appear to be a solicitation to support the activities of the American Legions - even though it does specifically call this out.

 

Cf.

This cache is in honor of my friend who is a cancer survivor.

 

Medical researchers have made great progress in recent years in developing new techniques for fighting cancer and increasing the survival rates of cancer patients and I want to thank the doctors and others for their effort. The American Cancer Society is a nationwide community-based voluntary health organization dedicated to eliminating cancer as a major health problem by preventing cancer, saving lives, and diminishing suffering from cancer, through research, education, advocacy and service.

Is this soliciting contributions to the American Cancer Society? Does it push an agenda to support the work of the American Cancer Society? The guidelines purposely doesn't specify whether an agenda is good or bad. Caches can't be used to promote any agenda unless Groundspeak makes an exception. I believe that the OP could work with the reviewer to find wording that is acceptable that doesn't give the appearance of pushing an agenda.

 

Could you explain the difference between cache pages, both to me are creating an awareness/educating oneself for/about each organization? And to my eye, appear to be presented in the same nature. :laughing: Both give history/background on each organization and there respective purpose while honoring someone near and dear to them?

 

So my conclusion is that by creating "Awareness" there is an Agenda for both caches, therefore according to gc.com "NO" Agenda guidelines, both caches need updated or archived.

 

Which I think is unnecessary would be a grave injustice to all those involved....

 

Steel City Babes

 

Please keep us posted on the outcome, I find this interesting.

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Hmmmm rewording you say....

 

---

This cache is placed in honor of my children who are serving in the US Armed Forces. I am proud of what they are doing and want to thank all who have served or are serving.

 

The American Legion was chartered by Congress in 1919 as a patriotic, mutual-help, war-time veterans organization. A community-service organization which now numbers nearly 3 million members -- men and women -- in nearly 15,000 American Legion Posts worldwide. These Posts are organized into 55 Departments -- one each for the 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, France, Mexico, and the Philippines.

 

God speed to you all!

 

That reads better. By separating the 2 sentences, the history of the legion does not imply endorsement of the first sentence.

 

That was sarcasm or something right? Are we really going to start into splitting hairs on perceptions of wording like that?

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snip...

 

Could you explain the difference between cache pages, both to me are creating an awareness/educating oneself for/about each organization? And to my eye, appear to be presented in the same nature. :laughing: Both give history/background on each organization and there respective purpose while honoring someone near and dear to them?

 

So my conclusion is that by creating "Awareness" there is an Agenda for both caches, therefore according to gc.com "NO" Agenda guidelines, both caches need updated or archived.

 

Which I think is unnecessary would be a grave injustice to all those involved....

 

Steel City Babes

 

Please keep us posted on the outcome, I find this interesting.

That is correct both caches should be reworded to avoid the appearance of promoting an agenda. They are both in violation of the guidelines. Changes can be made to the wording in each case to bring them into compliance.

 

Maybe it would be easier if I gave another example:

 

This cache is placed in honor of my girlfriend. On August 8, 2007 my girlfriend was raped on her way to find a cache.

 

This cache is placed at the Los Angeles branch of Planned Parenthood. After my girlfriend was raped, the police took her here for treatement. The doctor and nurses treated her with respect while collecting evidence that the police were able to use to catch the rapist. They also offered her Levonorgestrel (PlanB) to prevent an unwanted pregnacy. My girlfriend is doing much better but she doesn't cache solo any more.

 

This cache doesn't solicit money for Planned Parenthood. It doesn't take a position on whether PlanB is a legitimate treatment for rape victims or is an abortion pill. Yet I bet many people supporting the OP cache would insist that this cache be archived for promoting an agenda.

Edited by tozainamboku
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The steps for escalation, as I've seen them posted in this thread seem to indicate that the final review is posting it to the forums for the community to speak on.

 

How many of us have said to leave it stand without changing it, and how many of us does it take to preserve the cache?

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snip...

 

Could you explain the difference between cache pages, both to me are creating an awareness/educating oneself for/about each organization? And to my eye, appear to be presented in the same nature. :laughing: Both give history/background on each organization and there respective purpose while honoring someone near and dear to them?

 

So my conclusion is that by creating "Awareness" there is an Agenda for both caches, therefore according to gc.com "NO" Agenda guidelines, both caches need updated or archived.

 

Which I think is unnecessary would be a grave injustice to all those involved....

 

Steel City Babes

 

Please keep us posted on the outcome, I find this interesting.

That is correct both caches should be reworded to avoid the appearance of promoting an agenda. They are both in violation of the guidelines. Changes can be made to the wording in each case to bring them into compliance.

 

Maybe it would be easier if I gave another example:

 

This cache is placed in honor of my girlfriend. On August 8, 2007 my girlfriend was raped on her way to find a cache.

 

This cache is placed at the Los Angeles branch of Planned Parenthood. After my girlfriend was raped, the police took her here for treatement. The doctor and nurses treated her with respect while collecting evidence that the police were able to use to catch the rapist. They also offered her Levonorgestrel (PlanB) to prevent an unwanted pregnacy. My girlfriend is doing much better but she doesn't cache solo any more.

 

This cache doesn't solicit money for Planned Parenthood. It doesn't take a position on whether PlanB is a legitimate treatment for rape victims or is an abortion pill. Yet I bet many people supporting the OP cache would insist that this cache be archived for promoting an agenda.

 

I support the OP, and I also have no problem with that cache you listed.

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