Dumb caches, or dumb cacher?

[+travisl]

(in which TravisL gets a little grumpy)

 

A big part of the reason that I almost exclusively do cache machine events is because I'm not so good at finding caches on my own. Criminal alluded to this several years ago, but it's true. I'll get to the coordinates, and sometimes the pile of rocks is obvious, and sometimes I'll see the stone out of place in the rock wall, but often, it's a 20 foot radius of trial and error (that's 1200+ square feet, for those of you who like pi to equal 3.)

 

When you're looking for a micro, or an offset cache, how do you keep from destroying the local area? Two caches from this last weekend are great examples:

 

Rock On Summit brings you to a parking lot, and the first waypoint tells you to go a certain distance "northwest". We did, which brought us to the middle of an office complex, where we proceeded to turn over rocks, paw through small trees, dig into the bushes, and mess with A/C units, siding, and my highlight of the weekend, pulling a real sprinkler head out of the ground, piping and all. In the end, it turned out that the cache was more "west" than "northwest", and was a fake rock about 40 feet on the other side of the building.

 

Another, Red Vines Reborn, was a five-leg orienteering course, and as basic geometry will show, a minor error at the start (by cacher or hider) can lead to a large search area at the end. Again, lots of flowerbed trampling, bush rustling, and messing with building infrastructure ensued. Eventually, the cache was found somewhere that I thought I'd need a screwdriver to get to. If I searched for every cache the way I'd have needed to search for this one, I'm sure that GC.com would be getting a lot more complaints.

 

These two caches are only recent examples of a larger problem. I've looked for several caches where I've found a need to open live electrical boxes, pull metal signs off of telephone poles, overturn tables, remove railroad spikes, and unscrew bolts, all to learn the cache was hidden somewhere else. Sometimes, though, that's exactly where the cache is.

 

I've easily damaged more sprinklers than I've found caches in, and I've unscrewed about as many real electrical covers as fake ones. I don't know that there's anything that can (or should) be done about this, but it's frustrating. Is it just me?

 

(Yeah, I know: don't like them? don't hunt them. That's what I've been doing. Doesn't mean I have to like it.)

 

(Oh, and if you're setting up an offset cache, at least tell us whether you mean "north" or "magnetic north," and if you don't know the difference, don't set up an offset cache.)

 

(And get off my lawn, you rotten kids.)

[+FluteFace]

Many cachers think that they know how to use a compass just because they have a GPS that (supposedly) has one. As for the damage to a cache's environs there doesn't seem to be any way to avoid it. I guess a truly good cache is one that does no damage to the surrounding area. I've seen very few of those. It seems like the very best of those are in urban settings and they are often hard to find. It's very hard to hide a cache in the woods . . . the gentlest ones on the environment are those that are further out . . . fewer visitors.

[+YeOleImposter]

There was a great cache here in the Tri-Cities that required dropping something metal down a pole to retrieve the magnetic container.

 

Problem was, it was so difficult to find that people began removing bolts on the retaining wall 'looking' for the cache that the owner finally disabled the cache to keep people from totally destroying the area.

 

I really dislike urban camo that trains folks to dismantle everything they come across on the next difficult cache. It is one thing to turn over a rock or block of wood, it is another to remove stones from a stone wall, plates from electrical panels, etc.

 

There was one cache that I thought showed well what cachers do to an area. The owner had placed a picture of the park sign as part of her cache. By the time I got to it, the large decorative rocks that were a beautiful border are now haphazardly strewn around the edge. argh!

[+Kiersolvd]

Some ways south of me in a small town that has a great bakery, a cache is a fake electrical box that requires a screwdriver to open. Even though I could tell it was the cache because we could see a baggie inside, I choose to ignore it. I've seen too many of these and have just gotten tired. There are too many great scenic areas to go to - clever urban caches no longer have much attraction for me anymore.

 

I saw an archive log on a cache recently where the owner realized that it was not in an area that he would feel proud to bring an out-of-town visitor to. This is my $.02 worth and only my opinion.

[+quadsinthemudd]

I hate to say but sometime the dumb caches by DUMB CACHERS are some of the funniest things about caching. don't get me wrong I get red hot mad and complain alot but then I realize how new or dumb the cacher who placed it must be. it is very sad and I am a little man for doing it but it's the only way I can keep my cool when someone puts an electrical box on a telephone pole or anything else that sets a precident for us to look in dangerous spots in the future. I think that magnetic key holders should be banned. Out of all the key holder finds I have found 90% are not in any spot worthwhile they are just another hide and the logs are wet even on the dry side of the state! Just my little thoughts on the subject that has made me mad and made me sad(for the stupid people out there). well i'll still find the but I wont like them.

[+GrnXnham]

travisl, your basic problem is that you are hunting for too many urban caches.

 

Head out of town and enjoy a nice hike in the woods. No sprinklers or electrical boxes to mess with and many rural caches usually don't get visited enough to worry about trampling vegetation, destroying the landscape, and creating geo-trails.

[+travisl]

travisl, your basic problem is that you are hunting for too many urban caches.

 

Head out of town and enjoy a nice hike in the woods. No sprinklers or electrical boxes to mess with and many rural caches usually don't get visited enough to worry about trampling vegetation, destroying the landscape, and creating geo-trails.

 

Excellent point. I'm just geezerish, I suppose, because I used to be able to go hunt caches on my lunch break, but your implication is correct: most of the urban locations for traditional caches have already been taken, and I've probably already visited most of those locations within my lunch break radius.

 

(Yes, some caches have been archived and replaced with new ones, but to me the game's about finding new places more than getting another )

[+ZSandmann]

I hate to point fingers because I don't know you or the area, but from reading the opening post, I would put the blame on you, not the hider. I'm sorry but what you describe is vandalism. If the cache is in that spot and requires you to do some of the things you mentioned, I would log a SBA without thinking twice about it. A cache can be hidden about anywhere, but no one is making you look for it or dismantle others property.

[+Renegade Knight]

(in which TravisL gets a little grumpy) ... (And get off my lawn, you rotten kids.)

 

There are two main issues.

The first is owners. There is an art or skill in knowing how finders will go about your hide. If you factor that in, you will hide the hard caches in an area that can easily support a hard cache.

 

The second is finders. People like you (and me) who encounter a hide that tempts us to use scorched earth tactics need to realize that "at this point this cache stopped being fun and I'd rather go get an ice cream or go to the next cache". Then go get the ice cream or go to the next cache. Then stick that in your log so the owner has a chance to catch a clue.

 

The first time I took apart a sprinkler (who would have thought it was so easy) and it was a real sprinkler I came to hate sprinkler hides. They are like sand in my shorts. Now if the sprinkler doesn't just 'pop' out of the ground with about zero effort I don't even bother. I'll take the DNF and a beer.

[+MtnGoat50]

My answer to the OP's original question is, dumb caches. I've seen a lot of them. On the other hand, I've met a lot of geocachers and I can't think of any I'd call stupid. I also realize that smart people often do dumb things. I know I do, I just try to learn from them.

 

I like fake electrical box hides (fake sprinklers and magnetic key holders too). They work well in places where nothing else will. I would hate to see them banned. What I don't like are fake sprinkler heads hidden near the real thing and I really don't like caches that require the finder to bring a tool in order to take anything apart. If the guidelines where updated with something like. "Caches that require the finder to bring a tool (such as screwdriver to open an electrical box, or a wrench to remove a bolt or nut), are not allowed". I would be fine with that.

 

I also think it's unfair to accuse searchers of vandalism when an area is damaged from excessive searching due to poor coordinates or a poorly thought out cache. From my experience most people search carefully but when you have enough people searching an area, it's going to show some wear. A competent hider will take this into consideration.

Edited April 4, 2008 by MtnGoat50

[+Prying Pandora]

There are definitely two sides to this issue, and it's a little of both.

 

The seeker's side: Think about what you're doing and watch your step. You can search through foliage without stepping on it if you pay attention to what you're doing. You don't need to pull up rocks that have obviously been embedded in their place for years. Once you pull them up, they're loose and everyone after you will have to pick them up to look underneath. Think about how much force you need to search something. If it feels like it may break, don't persist and end up breaking it. If something feels wrong, don't do it unless you know for sure that's what you need to do. I have found quite a few hides that felt wrong to me, but I did it only after phoning a previous finder and making sure I wouldn't be damaging anything.

 

The hider's side: Every cacher would appreciate it if you would hold off hiding your first cache until you find a decent amount of caches first. Whatever good idea you have isn't going anywhere, and with experience you may decide it wasn't such a good idea after all. With the experience of finding caches, you will be more savvy about what is nice to find, what is unpleasant, what is at high risk for being muggled and what might risk damage to its area. You may think your hide is easy, but everything seems easy to find if you're the one who put it there. Not everybody thinks the way you do, and what if your cache has been muggled? How will the people trying to find it know that if you don't provide a hint? If it's missing and they don't know where it's supposed to be, they'll keep searching and some will get a little too aggressive before they give up. We'd like to think that doesn't happen, but the reality is that it does so you need to plan for that and head it off. Know that whatever people need to do to access your cache is something they'll remember and likely try again. You may have made an very well disguised cache attached to fake electrical wires that need to be pulled out, but do you want people to be pulling real wires out later when they are searching for another cache and possibly damage something or hurt themselves? Please do your best to provide accurate coordinates. Inaccurate coordinates don't make a cache more fun and challenging - it drives cachers nuts and sometimes leads to overaggressive searching in the wrong place. If your coordinates are off, finders will often mark some new ones for you. Take advantage of that and edit your coordinates accordingly. Also, the geocaching website has a very nice guide to placing geocaches that includes tips for getting accurate coordinates. Take the time to do it right.

 

I'm sure there's more useful insight into this issue to be had, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.

[+Wander Lost]

PP- Some EXCELLENT points there!

 

My .02 worth.

 

Caches are generally placed with the idea of bringing someone to the spot to FIND it. There is a big difference between a well placed cache with good cammo that fits naturally into the environment and a cache that's designed to frustrate the hiders and elicit DNF logs. I've hunted for both types and quite honestly the caches that fall into the latter category are rarely enjoyable, even after I've found them. On the other hand I've found many of the first type that I'd gladly recommend to visiting cachers.

 

The key for me is the thought process that goes into the first type of cache. In order to create a cache that fits naturally into the environment in such a way that muggles will never notice it but a cacher will be able to find it with a reasonable amount of searching, you have to do a little planning. That may mean making more than one trip to the cache location, looking at all of the possible hide locations and then selecting the right size and type of container for the location. It may also involve some form of camouflage that is custom created to fit the location. In my book all of this adds up to a more pleasant caching experience.

 

As a side benefit, for the cache hider, I would think that a cache hidden like this would be less likely to be muggled. Why you might ask? Simple, the harder the cache is to find the more likely it is that a cacher will have to resort to the 'scorched earth' searching method. I've rarely seen anyone in that mode be very careful about who's watching them in their search. I know when I've gotten to that point on a few of those DNF inspiring caches I didn't care who saw me searching for it, heck a few times I had people ask me what I was searching for. If I thought it would have helped me find the cache I'd have gotten them to help. I'm not suggesting that the cache needs to stand out like a sore thumb. But it can be challenging with out being frustrating.

 

Finally, to echo one of PP's statements: Give a useful hint. I really love it when I see a cache that has a proper hint. By that I mean a hint that I can decrypt in the field either manually or by pushing a button on my pda that will quite literally point me in the right direction. (i.e. Behind a stump next to a large fern) or (i.e. Right side of bench, reach under) If I've resorted to decrypting the hint that means I've already read the cache page and searched the areas my GPS is zeroing out. I've checked all the places I can think to look and now I just want you to tell me where you hid it so I can sign the log and move on to the next cache. Nothing irritates me more than getting to that point only to decrypt the hint and have some 'clever' message telling me I'm not going to get any help.

[+CACHE KRAWLER]

I feel that this sums up alot of what's going on. A quote from a local cacher that we all just lost.

 

"There is no room for fun or creative caches anymore. Hide your lame-assed pointless caches to your heart's content. Someone will find them and make you feel important. The game has been taken over by those that don’t know the purpose, and managed by those who have forgotten it. As for me, I am moving on to another plane. Goodbye."

[+EraSeek]

I feel that this sums up alot of what's going on. A quote from a local cacher that we all just lost.

 

"There is no room for fun or creative caches anymore. Hide your lame-assed pointless caches to your heart's content. Someone will find them and make you feel important. The game has been taken over by those that don’t know the purpose, and managed by those who have forgotten it. As for me, I am moving on to another plane. Goodbye."

I truely do umderstand the sentiment, and agree that you have to weed through more to get to the good ones, BUT I can prove you wrong! First you just need to be MORE creative (that's a good thing), second here is the proof.. a recently placed cache-> http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...c4-f7c7c26867c3

[square_peg]

There are a lot of great caches out there. I guess I'm fortunate to be relatively new to this game and for having lots of great experiences to look forward to. I can see that the pickings will become slimmer as the cache count goes up.

 

Caching should always be fun. If it's frequently not fun then you're probably doing it too much. If that has happened to you then here's a suggestion. Put your GPS unit down. Go back to the areas that you most enjoyed caching and explore them more thoroughly. I'll bet you'll have just as much fun as you did the first time you cached the area.

[+EraSeek]

Agreed. You know, I do that alot. I revisit the ones I enjoyed often. Here's one I definately plan on going back too. What an awesome place! http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...7a-3ecedaf10fd4

[+hydnsek]

Agreed. You know, I do that alot. I revisit the ones I enjoyed often. Here's one I definately plan on going back too. What an awesome place! http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...7a-3ecedaf10fd4

Great cache! But then, all of Bruce Bjornstad's caches are wonderful.

[+CACHE KRAWLER]

Thanks for introducing me to those great Geocaches. I just added them all to my Bucket List Bookmark. As far as the quote goes, the person that made that quote only has roughly 300 cache finds and for the most part only went after and placed the ones with hikes and views involoved. I'm just saddened that they were so upset that they gave it all up and left.

[+The Jester]

Agreed. You know, I do that alot. I revisit the ones I enjoyed often. Here's one I definately plan on going back too. What an awesome place! http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...7a-3ecedaf10fd4

I haven't been over there climbing in a few years, I'll have to go back and grab a cache between climbs...

[+Jaded]

Some ways south of me in a small town that has a great bakery, a cache is a fake electrical box that requires a screwdriver to open. Even though I could tell it was the cache because we could see a baggie inside, I choose to ignore it. I've seen too many of these and have just gotten tired. There are too many great scenic areas to go to - clever urban caches no longer have much attraction for me anymore.

 

I saw an archive log on a cache recently where the owner realized that it was not in an area that he would feel proud to bring an out-of-town visitor to. This is my $.02 worth and only my opinion.

 

I'll add my$ .02 to Kiersolvd's- urban caches should at least be in places that you'd be proud to take a visitor to!

 

We are so lucky here in the northwest - we have some of the most beautiful parks, green spaces, beaches and forests. We have public art, wonderful old architecture, quaint local history, and ample quirky places to share! The place should mean something - if its not obvious, I enjoy those who include in the description why the spot has meaning to them.

 

Guess we are up to $.04 now,....

[+hydnsek]

Some ways south of me in a small town that has a great bakery, a cache is a fake electrical box that requires a screwdriver to open. Even though I could tell it was the cache because we could see a baggie inside, I choose to ignore it. I've seen too many of these and have just gotten tired. There are too many great scenic areas to go to - clever urban caches no longer have much attraction for me anymore.

 

I saw an archive log on a cache recently where the owner realized that it was not in an area that he would feel proud to bring an out-of-town visitor to. This is my $.02 worth and only my opinion.

 

I'll add my$ .02 to Kiersolvd's- urban caches should at least be in places that you'd be proud to take a visitor to!

 

We are so lucky here in the northwest - we have some of the most beautiful parks, green spaces, beaches and forests. We have public art, wonderful old architecture, quaint local history, and ample quirky places to share! The place should mean something - if its not obvious, I enjoy those who include in the description why the spot has meaning to them.

 

Guess we are up to $.04 now,....

Add another $.02 from me. Total agreement with Jaded and others. I went on a fantastic hike yesterday near Lake Lenore, in a huge 'hidden' coulee system created by the Missoula Floods. Navigatorz and Mr. Gadget #2 have placed four caches there that highlight unique caves, cliffs and gaps, lakes, coulee mazes, and petroglyphs. Wowee!!