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Geocaching and the Forest Service :angry:


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We were out geocaching on public lands looking for a multi-cache near our home today called Goldielocks. We were at the first geocache site called papa bear when a forest ranger aproched us asking what we were doing thinking that we were dumping trash. I told him we were geocaching thinking that he would know what that was and would let be on our way. When he herd that we were geocaching he went off on us about how it is illegal and It litters the forest and all that and started talking about fines. When he was done talking he made me tell him where it was and so I did. He then told me to leave the area. At that point I got out of there as quick as I could because I didn't want him to not find it and make me get it for him. My fear is that if he found papa bear he will find the remaining caches related to goldielocks. We have never come across the situation before, I would have thought that the forest service was ok with geocaching being that you have to get permission to place a cache. Has anyone else come accros this situation before? Has anyone ever heard this ever happening or know for sure it this is true or not about geocaching being illegal?

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We were out geocaching on public lands looking for a multi-cache near our home today called Goldielocks. We were at the first geocache site called papa bear when a forest ranger aproched us asking what we were doing thinking that we were dumping trash. I told him we were geocaching thinking that he would know what that was and would let be on our way. When he herd that we were geocaching he went off on us about how it is illegal and It litters the forest and all that and started talking about fines. When he was done talking he made me tell him where it was and so I did. He then told me to leave the area. At that point I got out of there as quick as I could because I didn't want him to not find it and make me get it for him. My fear is that if he found papa bear he will find the remaining caches related to goldielocks. We have never come across the situation before, I would have thought that the forest was ok with geocaching being that you have to get permission to place a cache. Has anyone else come accros this situation before? Has anyone ever heard this ever happening or know for sure it this is true or not about geocaching being illegal?

 

http://forestry.about.com/od/mappinggis/p/fed_geocache.htm should have some good answers and jumping points to start from. These are NOT the guidelines however of the forestry service. Best for the owners of the cache to check with the local forest rangers office and if the answers there are not satisfactory, take it to the next level.

 

It just bothers me that people such as that ranger practice reactive ignorance rather that patient responsiveness. But thanks to the policy of fear that was bred by our government after 9/11 I guess it is par for the course and ok to be ignorant.

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The USDA empowers individual National Forests to set geocaching policy at the local level. Many National Forests have very pro-geocaching policies and cooperate closely with local geocachers. To answer your question, we need to find out whether this particular National Forest has a geocaching policy and, if so, whether the Ranger was interpreting it correctly.

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Sounds like you found yourself dealing with the southbound end of a northbound mule.

 

It just bothers me that people such as that ranger practice reactive ignorance rather that patient responsiveness. But thanks to the policy of fear that was bred by our government after 9/11 I guess it is par for the course and ok to be ignorant.

 

Ohhh, I'm thinkin' that attitude is pre-9/11. I've only encounterd that type of attitude from old school forestry dudes who saw one too many episodes of Gentle Ben.

 

Thankfully they are a dying breed, but it's fun to watch them torture a trail crew full of noobs. :o:D

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Sounds like you found yourself dealing with the southbound end of a northbound mule.

 

It just bothers me that people such as that ranger practice reactive ignorance rather that patient responsiveness. But thanks to the policy of fear that was bred by our government after 9/11 I guess it is par for the course and ok to be ignorant.

 

Ohhh, I'm thinkin' that attitude is pre-9/11. I've only encounterd that type of attitude from old school forestry dudes who saw one too many episodes of Gentle Ben.

 

Thankfully they are a dying breed, but it's fun to watch them torture a trail crew full of noobs. :o:D

 

Another thing to do is carry a sheet (in a plastic baggy sort of like the ones found in geocaches) to show rangers, police, and other authority types, etc. when they do stop and question you and give that cockeyed look as to what you are talking about, they can read the sheet.

 

And even though what we do is not illegal, trying to argue the legal point with pig headed authority types will only make them angrier and give them an excuse to scratch the itchy trigger finger (not actually shoot but possibly get aggressive in terms of force and/or issuing a ticket, arrest, etc.). No cache is worth dealing with a stupid person with a badge looking to feed a power trip. Your best bet is to be polite and ask for the officers badge number and then take it up with his/her supervisor.

 

I think for the most part, rangers in particular are quite friendly and aware of geocaching. Police on the other hand, depending on the area, may not be, but in many cases, they do understand if you are polite and provide information for them. Remeber (much as I am a distruster of authority) they are just trying to do their job. Unfortunately, part of that job is to treat every situation with suspicion.

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Unfortunately, I have run into Forest Service employees who have known about Geocaching and have had the same attitude as the Ranger the OP ran into. :o

 

I find it unbelievable that parts of our National Forest lands can be virtually destroyed by clear cutting or mining, but Forest Service employees get all upset about a few people wanting to hunt for Tupperware . . . :D

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Sounds like you found yourself dealing with the southbound end of a northbound mule.

 

It just bothers me that people such as that ranger practice reactive ignorance rather that patient responsiveness. But thanks to the policy of fear that was bred by our government after 9/11 I guess it is par for the course and ok to be ignorant.

 

Ohhh, I'm thinkin' that attitude is pre-9/11. I've only encounterd that type of attitude from old school forestry dudes who saw one too many episodes of Gentle Ben.

 

Thankfully they are a dying breed, but it's fun to watch them torture a trail crew full of noobs. :o:D

 

Another thing to do is carry a sheet (in a plastic baggy sort of like the ones found in geocaches) to show rangers, police, and other authority types, etc. when they do stop and question you and give that cockeyed look as to what you are talking about, they can read the sheet.

 

And even though what we do is not illegal, trying to argue the legal point with pig headed authority types will only make them angrier and give them an excuse to scratch the itchy trigger finger (not actually shoot but possibly get aggressive in terms of force and/or issuing a ticket, arrest, etc.). No cache is worth dealing with a stupid person with a badge looking to feed a power trip. Your best bet is to be polite and ask for the officers badge number and then take it up with his/her supervisor.

 

I think for the most part, rangers in particular are quite friendly and aware of geocaching. Police on the other hand, depending on the area, may not be, but in many cases, they do understand if you are polite and provide information for them. Remeber (much as I am a distruster of authority) they are just trying to do their job. Unfortunately, part of that job is to treat every situation with suspicion.

 

Treating every situation with suspicion is one thing. Unnecessary rudeness, threats, and bullying are not part of the job. You are correct though, confronting them on it isn't a good idea.

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We were out geocaching on public lands looking for a multi-cache near our home today called Goldielocks. We were at the first geocache site called papa bear when a forest ranger aproched us asking what we were doing thinking that we were dumping trash. I told him we were geocaching thinking that he would know what that was and would let be on our way. When he herd that we were geocaching he went off on us about how it is illegal and It litters the forest and all that and started talking about fines. When he was done talking he made me tell him where it was and so I did. He then told me to leave the area. At that point I got out of there as quick as I could because I didn't want him to not find it and make me get it for him. My fear is that if he found papa bear he will find the remaining caches related to goldielocks. We have never come across the situation before, I would have thought that the forest service was ok with geocaching being that you have to get permission to place a cache. Has anyone else come accros this situation before? Has anyone ever heard this ever happening or know for sure it this is true or not about geocaching being illegal?

 

"...being that you have to get permission to place a cache." Now there's a really interesting observation. :o:D:D

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Sounds like you found yourself dealing with the southbound end of a northbound mule.

 

It just bothers me that people such as that ranger practice reactive ignorance rather that patient responsiveness. But thanks to the policy of fear that was bred by our government after 9/11 I guess it is par for the course and ok to be ignorant.

 

Ohhh, I'm thinkin' that attitude is pre-9/11. I've only encounterd that type of attitude from old school forestry dudes who saw one too many episodes of Gentle Ben.

 

Thankfully they are a dying breed, but it's fun to watch them torture a trail crew full of noobs. :o:D

 

Another thing to do is carry a sheet (in a plastic baggy sort of like the ones found in geocaches) to show rangers, police, and other authority types, etc. when they do stop and question you and give that cockeyed look as to what you are talking about, they can read the sheet.

 

And even though what we do is not illegal, trying to argue the legal point with pig headed authority types will only make them angrier and give them an excuse to scratch the itchy trigger finger (not actually shoot but possibly get aggressive in terms of force and/or issuing a ticket, arrest, etc.). No cache is worth dealing with a stupid person with a badge looking to feed a power trip. Your best bet is to be polite and ask for the officers badge number and then take it up with his/her supervisor.

 

I think for the most part, rangers in particular are quite friendly and aware of geocaching. Police on the other hand, depending on the area, may not be, but in many cases, they do understand if you are polite and provide information for them. Remeber (much as I am a distruster of authority) they are just trying to do their job. Unfortunately, part of that job is to treat every situation with suspicion.

 

Treating every situation with suspicion is one thing. Unnecessary rudeness, threats, and bullying are not part of the job. You are correct though, confronting them on it isn't a good idea.

Oh trust me, I agree with you. I do not even agree with the treat EVERY situation with suspicion approach, I am just saying they are trained to do that. I also do not agree with the bullying and rudeness. Like I said, it is sad that these public safety departments havre a good share of meat heads who are only in it for the power trip and use knee jerk reaction to dictate their every move.

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Your best bet is to be polite and ask for the officers badge number and then take it up with his/her supervisor.

I think badge numbers went out around the early 60's. Perhaps you could just read their nametag? It tickles me to no end when some squawker starts demanding my badge number. I take my badge off my shirt and hand it to them, telling them we don't have badge numbers, but if they can find a number on it, they are more than welcome to write it down. Then I offer to show them my Sheriff's Office ID, in case they think my nametag is a fake. To date, every single one of them has scrutinized my badge, searching for the number I already told them doesn't exist. I reckon they don't trust authority either. :o The most common response to this action is them stating words to the effect of, "I know you've got badge numbers. I've watched ____________ " (<--- insert lame 60's era cop show here) :D

 

Back on topic: Be polite, read their nametag, talk to their boss. Some forestry folks don't use nametags, so just ask them their name.

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Your best bet is to be polite and ask for the officers badge number and then take it up with his/her supervisor.

I think badge numbers went out around the early 60's. Perhaps you could just read their nametag? It tickles me to no end when some squawker starts demanding my badge number. I take my badge off my shirt and hand it to them, telling them we don't have badge numbers, but if they can find a number on it, they are more than welcome to write it down. Then I offer to show them my Sheriff's Office ID, in case they think my nametag is a fake. To date, every single one of them has scrutinized my badge, searching for the number I already told them doesn't exist. I reckon they don't trust authority either. :o The most common response to this action is them stating words to the effect of, "I know you've got badge numbers. I've watched ____________ " (<--- insert lame 60's era cop show here) :D

 

Back on topic: Be polite, read their nametag, talk to their boss. Some forestry folks don't use nametags, so just ask them their name.

 

I'm pretty sure a lot of police departments still use badge numbers. I've heard them chanted at protests when the cops started pepper spraying old people.

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Your best bet is to be polite and ask for the officers badge number and then take it up with his/her supervisor.

I think badge numbers went out around the early 60's. Perhaps you could just read their nametag? It tickles me to no end when some squawker starts demanding my badge number. I take my badge off my shirt and hand it to them, telling them we don't have badge numbers, but if they can find a number on it, they are more than welcome to write it down. Then I offer to show them my Sheriff's Office ID, in case they think my nametag is a fake. To date, every single one of them has scrutinized my badge, searching for the number I already told them doesn't exist. I reckon they don't trust authority either. :o The most common response to this action is them stating words to the effect of, "I know you've got badge numbers. I've watched ____________ " (<--- insert lame 60's era cop show here) :D

 

Back on topic: Be polite, read their nametag, talk to their boss. Some forestry folks don't use nametags, so just ask them their name.

 

I'm pretty sure a lot of police departments still use badge numbers. I've heard them chanted at protests when the cops started pepper spraying old people.

 

It would be nice if this site printed up Geocacher ID cards. :D

Just something official looking to show muggles, rangers, police, ect. They probably would sell pretty good..

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It would be nice if this site printed up Geocacher ID cards. :o

Just something official looking to show muggles, rangers, police, ect. They probably would sell pretty good..

When being questioned by someone in authority handing them fake "official" ID is not likely to help!

Theres nothing fake about showing a card identifying yourself as a geocacher.

 

Now if a muggle found it, they could cause mayhem.. :D

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It would be nice if this site printed up Geocacher ID cards. :o

Just something official looking to show muggles, rangers, police, ect. They probably would sell pretty good..

When being questioned by someone in authority handing them fake "official" ID is not likely to help!

Theres nothing fake about showing a card identifying yourself as a geocacher.

 

Now if a muggle found it, they could cause mayhem.. :D

A geocaching card that explains the game is a wonderful idea - my issue was with the phrase "official looking to show muggles, rangers, police, ect." which is a whole 'nother thing.

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Your best bet is to be polite and ask for the officers badge number and then take it up with his/her supervisor.

I think badge numbers went out around the early 60's. Perhaps you could just read their nametag? It tickles me to no end when some squawker starts demanding my badge number. I take my badge off my shirt and hand it to them, telling them we don't have badge numbers, but if they can find a number on it, they are more than welcome to write it down. Then I offer to show them my Sheriff's Office ID, in case they think my nametag is a fake. To date, every single one of them has scrutinized my badge, searching for the number I already told them doesn't exist. I reckon they don't trust authority either. :o The most common response to this action is them stating words to the effect of, "I know you've got badge numbers. I've watched ____________ " (<--- insert lame 60's era cop show here) :D

 

Back on topic: Be polite, read their nametag, talk to their boss. Some forestry folks don't use nametags, so just ask them their name.

 

Most law enforcement officials still use badge numbers. My comment was generalized not directed at just your department.

You also mention with a tone of arrogance that "they don't trust authority either" to which I say why should we - law enforcement does not trust civilians. Why should I trust someone who doesn't trust me. I am not dsaying all law enforcement has been impolite with me whenever I have had to intercat with them, just most. I do not underatnd why this superiority/chip on your shoulder mentallity seems to pollute our law enforcement structure in this country. In the case of this ranger, had he not been ignorant and done his job accordingly by realizing this person was of no threat, instead of being reactive, he could have done about 5 minutes of research and realized that this was nothing to get up in arms about. Again, it is unfortuante that ignorance and stupidity have to rule behind the badge.

 

Please do not take offense because I really do commend your service to protect the peace. I am just not of the mindset that fear and suspicion of everything and everyone should dictate how anyone should go about their day wheter they are an officer of the law or a common citizen.

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The USDA empowers individual National Forests to set geocaching policy at the local level. Many National Forests have very pro-geocaching policies and cooperate closely with local geocachers. To answer your question, we need to find out whether this particular National Forest has a geocaching policy and, if so, whether the Ranger was interpreting it correctly.

I vaguely remember that the Tonto National Forest in Arizona did have a highly restrictive geocaching policy. If I recall it was put in place after some archaeological site was damaged. There was a nearby geocache and the forest service decided to blame geocachers. Sounds a lot like the the problems here in California at Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. I couldn't find anything in a search of these forums. Perhaps an Arizona cacher can confirm if this is the case.

Edited by tozainamboku
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It would be nice if this site printed up Geocacher ID cards. :o

Just something official looking to show muggles, rangers, police, ect. They probably would sell pretty good..

When being questioned by someone in authority handing them fake "official" ID is not likely to help!

Theres nothing fake about showing a card identifying yourself as a geocacher.

 

Now if a muggle found it, they could cause mayhem.. :D

A geocaching card that explains the game is a wonderful idea - my issue was with the phrase "official looking to show muggles, rangers, police, ect." which is a whole 'nother thing.

 

It would be a wallet size card that says "Geocacher", your nickname, real name, date joined, ect.

The back could explain the game. If stopped by the police, you could hand them your driver's license and your geocacher ID and they could run your DL# through the NCIC, while reading the back of the other card to figure out what geocaching is ..

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Please do not take offense because I really do commend your service to protect the peace. I am just not of the mindset that fear and suspicion of everything and everyone should dictate how anyone should go about their day wheter they are an officer of the law or a common citizen.

When your job involved confronting people who may be doing something illegal, and may be armed, I'd say a bit of "fear and suspicion" is a good thing to have. Those two qualities, tempered with common sense and professtionalism just might save your life.

 

That said, the ranger was being a jerk. It is a sad fact that jerks exist in all professions, including those that serve the public. My own experience with both law enforcement officials and public servants (including park rangers), albeit it limited, suggest that these people are for the most part rare.

 

You get what you give. If you have a "chip on your shoulder", you can expect the people you are dealing with to reflect that same attitude back to you. If you are polite and respectful, you will likely be treated the same.

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It would be nice if this site printed up Geocacher ID cards. :o

Just something official looking to show muggles, rangers, police, ect. They probably would sell pretty good..

When being questioned by someone in authority handing them fake "official" ID is not likely to help!

Theres nothing fake about showing a card identifying yourself as a geocacher.

 

Now if a muggle found it, they could cause mayhem.. :D

A geocaching card that explains the game is a wonderful idea - my issue was with the phrase "official looking to show muggles, rangers, police, ect." which is a whole 'nother thing.

 

It would be a wallet size card that says "Geocacher", your nickname, real name, date joined, ect.

The back could explain the game. If stopped by the police, you could hand them your driver's license and your geocacher ID and they could run your DL# through the NCIC, while reading the back of the other card to figure out what geocaching is ..

Then this should be perfect, just add your name, nick and date joined and print it out - http://www.geocacher-u.com/resources/foldingcard.pdf :D

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We were out geocaching on public lands looking for a multi-cache near our home today called Goldielocks. We were at the first geocache site called papa bear when a forest ranger aproched us asking what we were doing thinking that we were dumping trash. I told him we were geocaching thinking that he would know what that was and would let be on our way. When he herd that we were geocaching he went off on us about how it is illegal and It litters the forest and all that and started talking about fines. When he was done talking he made me tell him where it was and so I did. He then told me to leave the area. At that point I got out of there as quick as I could because I didn't want him to not find it and make me get it for him. My fear is that if he found papa bear he will find the remaining caches related to goldielocks. We have never come across the situation before, I would have thought that the forest service was ok with geocaching being that you have to get permission to place a cache. Has anyone else come accros this situation before? Has anyone ever heard this ever happening or know for sure it this is true or not about geocaching being illegal?

 

Its not illegal. I don't believe its illegal anywhere. It may be against rules or guidelines in certain places, but certainly not illegal. What is he going to fine you for as a cache seeker? I can see maybe fining the cache hider for littering or something, but as far as being a seeker, I would have told him where to put his attitude and been on my way. And I would not have shown him where the cache was

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Please do not take offense because I really do commend your service to protect the peace. I am just not of the mindset that fear and suspicion of everything and everyone should dictate how anyone should go about their day wheter they are an officer of the law or a common citizen.

When your job involved confronting people who may be doing something illegal, and may be armed, I'd say a bit of "fear and suspicion" is a good thing to have. Those two qualities, tempered with common sense and professtionalism just might save your life.

 

That said, the ranger was being a jerk. It is a sad fact that jerks exist in all professions, including those that serve the public. My own experience with both law enforcement officials and public servants (including park rangers), albeit it limited, suggest that these people are for the most part rare.

 

You get what you give. If you have a "chip on your shoulder", you can expect the people you are dealing with to reflect that same attitude back to you. If you are polite and respectful, you will likely be treated the same.

 

I have been polite and respectful in every case I was every confronted with a law enforcement type. Sometimes they returned the behavior, many times that did not. I would say 6 out of every 10 were jerks even when I was cooperative and respectful (most of these were traffic tickets and a few "what are you doing there" )

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The USDA empowers individual National Forests to set geocaching policy at the local level. Many National Forests have very pro-geocaching policies and cooperate closely with local geocachers. To answer your question, we need to find out whether this particular National Forest has a geocaching policy and, if so, whether the Ranger was interpreting it correctly.

I vaguely remember that the Tonto National Forest in Arizona did have a highly restrictive geocaching policy. If I recall it was put in place after some archaeological site was damaged. There was a nearby geocache and the forest service decided to blame geocachers. Sounds a lot like the the problems here in California at Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. I couldn't find anything in a search of these forums. Perhaps an Arizona cacher can confirm if this is the case.

 

How about Cleveland National Forest? Anyone know about that one?

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The USDA empowers individual National Forests to set geocaching policy at the local level. Many National Forests have very pro-geocaching policies and cooperate closely with local geocachers. To answer your question, we need to find out whether this particular National Forest has a geocaching policy and, if so, whether the Ranger was interpreting it correctly.

I vaguely remember that the Tonto National Forest in Arizona did have a highly restrictive geocaching policy. If I recall it was put in place after some archaeological site was damaged. There was a nearby geocache and the forest service decided to blame geocachers. Sounds a lot like the the problems here in California at Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. I couldn't find anything in a search of these forums. Perhaps an Arizona cacher can confirm if this is the case.

 

How about Cleveland National Forest? Anyone know about that one?

 

You seem to. Tell us.

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We were out geocaching on public lands looking for a multi-cache near our home today called Goldielocks. We were at the first geocache site called papa bear when a forest ranger aproched us asking what we were doing thinking that we were dumping trash. I told him we were geocaching thinking that he would know what that was and would let be on our way. When he herd that we were geocaching he went off on us about how it is illegal and It litters the forest and all that and started talking about fines. When he was done talking he made me tell him where it was and so I did. He then told me to leave the area. At that point I got out of there as quick as I could because I didn't want him to not find it and make me get it for him. My fear is that if he found papa bear he will find the remaining caches related to goldielocks. We have never come across the situation before, I would have thought that the forest service was ok with geocaching being that you have to get permission to place a cache. Has anyone else come accros this situation before? Has anyone ever heard this ever happening or know for sure it this is true or not about geocaching being illegal?

 

Its not illegal. I don't believe its illegal anywhere. It may be against rules or guidelines in certain places, but certainly not illegal. What is he going to fine you for as a cache seeker? I can see maybe fining the cache hider for littering or something, but as far as being a seeker, I would have told him where to put his attitude and been on my way. And I would not have shown him where the cache was

 

While the ranger may not have had any good reason to be a jerk, responding in kind is just lowering yourself to his level AND potentially causing another ranger to actively work to ban geocaches from the area he is responsible for. It might feel good at the moment but it almost certainly is not the best way to deal with the situation.

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The USDA empowers individual National Forests to set geocaching policy at the local level. Many National Forests have very pro-geocaching policies and cooperate closely with local geocachers. To answer your question, we need to find out whether this particular National Forest has a geocaching policy and, if so, whether the Ranger was interpreting it correctly.

I vaguely remember that the Tonto National Forest in Arizona did have a highly restrictive geocaching policy. If I recall it was put in place after some archaeological site was damaged. There was a nearby geocache and the forest service decided to blame geocachers. Sounds a lot like the the problems here in California at Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. I couldn't find anything in a search of these forums. Perhaps an Arizona cacher can confirm if this is the case.

 

How about Cleveland National Forest? Anyone know about that one?

 

You seem to. Tell us.

 

Actually no, I don't. However, if you'd like I'll try and find out. Perhaps someone from the san diego area has good information.

 

Would you like for me to get some information for you?

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Where to begin...

Most law enforcement officials still use badge numbers.

When you say most, would that be closer to 51% or 99%? I've been a cop since '82, which means I've dealt with many different law enforcement agencies for the last 26 years or so. Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 different departments. None of them use badge numbers. That puts my ratio at 0%. Of course than means there are still gazillions of agencies out there which I haven't had personal contact with. Maybe those are the ones still using the antiquated badge number system?

(On a side note, many of the cops I know, who are exasperated at having to explain that badge numbers went out with Hawaii 5-0, will give citizens their employee ID number when asked for a badge number, rather than attempt to educate someone whose mind is already made up. Personally, I think this only exacerbates the problem, as the citizen will walk away from the encounter thinking that there really is such a thing as badge numbers)

 

law enforcement does not trust civilians.

Really? I trust civilians. Every single cop I know, (and that is a number somewhere in the thousands), trust civilians. Could this be just a wee bit of paranoia popping up?

 

Why should I trust someone who doesn't trust me.

Who doesn't trust you? Certainly not me, or any other cop I've ever known. Paranoia again? Just wondering. Allow me to offer a suggestion that might help you. Graduate from your local law enforcement academy. That'll get you some basic information on how cops are trained in dealing with people. Contrary to your belief, we are not trained to distrust anybody. We are trained to evaluate, and act accordingly on our observations. Then get a job in law enforcement. Actually working the job will reinforce what you were trained, and you'll soon come to the realization that only a slight percentage of the population warrants distrust. The vast majority of folks on this little blue marble are pretty decent folks, just doing what they think is right, trying to get along with their fellow humans, making the occasional mistake along the way.

 

Of course, as with any job, you get out of it what you put into it. If all you bring to the job is paranoia, then fear and distrust is all you'll get out of it.

it is unfortuante that ignorance and stupidity have to rule behind the badge.

In this case, could it be that the aforementioned ignorance and stupidity is located several feet in front of the badge? That happens sometimes in my line of work. :(

 

I am just not of the mindset that fear and suspicion of everything and everyone should dictate how anyone should go about their day wheter they are an officer of the law or a common citizen.

Then why approach a situation filled with fear and suspicion? Judging by what you've mentioned here, your average, (I believe you said "most"), encounter with law enforcement is fraught with distrust, which you admittedly bring to the scenario. If you approach someone, and you are brimming with distrust, (as you claim), any student of Kinesics is going to pick up on that, and often mirror it. Perhaps that was why the ranger was being such a "jerk"? Maybe?

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..geocaching being illegal?

 

Everthing not prohibited is legal. Geocaching is legal. So is breathing. People* in positions of some power who are annoyed like to put the fear in the people they are dealing with. Threatening arrest, finds, charges and the like is the normal tool used. Unfortanatly there are enough laws on the book to where I have no doubt that these folks bend on harrasment can in fact charge you with something even if it's tracking in noxious weed seeds on the sole of your shoes.

 

The closes law that tends to match caches is abandoned property laws. Caches are not abandoned property but because the law is written to be broad so government agencies can deal with actual abandoned property it tends to pick up caches as a side effect. That's caches. Being a cacher and participating in caching ok at all times...unless you happen to be breaking another law like tresspassing on posted land.

 

*Not all people. Just some. But enough to where this is well known behavior.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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I have encountered law enforcement or park rangers maybe two dozen times while geocaching in everal different states. In EVERY case they have been polite and reasonable. Guess I've been lucky. Even when I have been doing something "slightly" illegal (parked in prohibited area, railroad right of way). In those cases, maybe three times, they just wanted to be sure I wasn't hunting.

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It would be a wallet size card that says "Geocacher", your nickname, real name, date joined, ect.

The back could explain the game.

 

In Mississippi, many of us have name tags we wear when caching in unfamiliar territory.

 

Some of us have larger, more vivid name tags we wear, made by a member of the Starkville Mafia.

 

The name tags have clips on one end. I keep mine above my truck sunvisor.

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While the ranger may not have had any good reason to be a jerk, responding in kind is just lowering yourself to his level AND potentially causing another ranger to actively work to ban geocaches from the area he is responsible for. It might feel good at the moment but it almost certainly is not the best way to deal with the situation.

 

If I am legally in a park, minding my own business and a ranger decides to harass me and threaten to fine me for doing something I have every right to be there doing, I don't care if I'm playing frisbee, geocaching, or picking my nose, he will not be intimidating me.

 

The situation has nothing to do with geocaching, it has to do with being treated improperly by another human being. I stick to my original resolution -- Tell him to go put out a fire or even better, tell him to go keep those rascally, hat-wearing bears away from my picnic baskets :unsure:

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I was out some local cachers in a Cal. state park a few years ago and a ranger asked us what we were doing, we told him and he told us the Geocache was illegal in Ca. state parks, of course he was wrong, but he was the idiot with the gun and badge, so we left. There must be 100 caches in the park we were in.

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The vast majority of folks on this little blue marble are pretty decent folks, just doing what they think is right, trying to get along with their fellow humans, making the occasional mistake along the way.

VERY well stated. Excellent post altogether.

 

I think this one statement is the key to understanding all the "different" viewpoints one encounters in the world. "Different" is in quotes to convey the meaning that the viewpoints are not really all that "different" once you understand where they originate and the background behind them.

 

Basically we all want to simply live together in peace and harmony, even though we can never agree on what that means or how to accomplish it.

 

Back in the day, when I did the cop thing, I always assumed everyone I met was honest and basically good (though in many cases squirrelly), but I was at the same time always alert for signs of BS. When the BS issued forth from someone's mouth, the trust vanished. The character, nature, and intensity of the BS determined how quickly and to what extent the trust vanished- and how difficult it would be to get it back again. Even though no longer a cop, I still evaluate every interpersonal encounter this way.

 

I did not associate with nearly as many people or agencies or cops as Clan Riftster stated, but I DID know a few cops who DID treat everybody basically like a criminal. To say they are not "out there" would be patently untrue.

 

But still the number of bad cops is VERY VERY SMALL and when a cop comes off as an (symbol of the democratic party), it is USUALLY because he or she smelled the BS "about 2 feet in front of the badge."

 

I would venture that a LOT of cacher's bad experiences with LEO are the result of spreading the fertilizer instead of politely explaining the game.

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Sounds like you found yourself dealing with the southbound end of a northbound mule.

 

Don't be goofin on my mule now!

Seriously, what a tool. Now that I've complained, how about raising the guy's consciousness by organizing a trash pick up in the area. As a group geocachers probably haul more trash out of more places than any of us can imagine. I know I am always lugging crap out and I know others do too.

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Of course than means there are still gazillions of agencies out there which I haven't had personal contact with. Maybe those are the ones still using the antiquated badge number system?

North Charleston PD still uses badge numbers. The numbers aren't actually on the badge, though, as badge numbers change every so often. Why? Don't ask me. I've only gotten shrugs when I ask.

 

Still use ten-codes, priority codes, and signals, too.

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Of course than means there are still gazillions of agencies out there which I haven't had personal contact with. Maybe those are the ones still using the antiquated badge number system?

North Charleston PD still uses badge numbers. The numbers aren't actually on the badge, though, as badge numbers change every so often. Why? Don't ask me. I've only gotten shrugs when I ask.

 

Still use ten-codes, priority codes, and signals, too.

 

Badge numbers that aren't on badges. Now there's a novel idea. :huh::huh:B)

 

Probably a good way to trick out the local citizenry though. 10-4...........good buddy. ;-)

Edited by Team Cotati
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Sounds like you found yourself dealing with the southbound end of a northbound mule.

 

Don't be goofin on my mule now!

Seriously, what a tool. Now that I've complained, how about raising the guy's consciousness by organizing a trash pick up in the area. As a group geocachers probably haul more trash out of more places than any of us can imagine. I know I am always lugging crap out and I know others do too.

 

When coordinating with the park ask that the officious person in question be assigned to represent the NFS. They are going to want to monitor the progress right? As he is so diligent in his duties I am sure he would want to be there.

Edited by gof1
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I have encountered law enforcement or park rangers maybe two dozen times while geocaching in everal different states. In EVERY case they have been polite and reasonable. Guess I've been lucky. Even when I have been doing something "slightly" illegal (parked in prohibited area, railroad right of way). In those cases, maybe three times, they just wanted to be sure I wasn't hunting.

We have a local law enforcement department that has 7 officers that geocache. Due to its proximity to a military installation, they've requested all containers hidden either be small to micros or see-through. This prevents bomb-squad from being alerted.

 

The second encounter my wife and I had with one of the local officers was right after a new cache had been published. We had gone to lunch, got the notification, and since it was less than half a mile away, we went for it. Well, after finding the container, signing log sheet, and rehiding, the officer pulled up being us and asked what we were doing. I told him and next we know he radioing dispatch and two of the other officers on duty about a recently published cache. Confirmation was received that there had been, so he asked if we had found it. We told him "Yes and we've already put it back". Next thing you know his buddies are showing up to converse over the new hide. End result, they let us go. This local department does have a policy against geocaching on duty, so these guys had to wait until their shift was over.

 

We also carry a brochure that our local geocaching association created to give anyone who has questions. So far we haven't had any further hassles or problems. Lots of "good lucks" have been given though.

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When you say most, would that be closer to 51% or 99%? I've been a cop since '82, which means I've dealt with many different law enforcement agencies for the last 26 years or so. Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 different departments. None of them use badge numbers. That puts my ratio at 0%. Of course than means there are still gazillions of agencies out there which I haven't had personal contact with. Maybe those are the ones still using the antiquated badge number system?

(On a side note, many of the cops I know, who are exasperated at having to explain that badge numbers went out with Hawaii 5-0, will give citizens their employee ID number when asked for a badge number, rather than attempt to educate someone whose mind is already made up. Personally, I think this only exacerbates the problem, as the citizen will walk away from the encounter thinking that there really is such a thing as badge numbers)

 

I rarely get involved in these types of discussions. I usually just shake my head and move on... But this just seems like such an odd issue to have caused people to have become "exasperated." The patrol officers where I work have badge numbers. So do all the surrounding cities and counties. My badge had a number too, until I promoted. Now my badge has my rank insignia.

 

I also happen to know that Los Angeles PD, the California Highway Patrol, and the New York PD all have numbers on their badges (I have seen them). Maybe they are just backward and antiquated departments though.

 

But to get back to the OP’s topic, Rangers, just like police and sheriffs deputies, are people. We all have baggage, and sometimes it spills over into our work lives. That being said, it does not excuse poor behavior.

 

I like to assume the best of people. In law enforcement we tend to see people at their worst. Let’s face it, no body calls the police when the love of their life proposes marriage, or their first child is born. Then call us when their drunk husband is breaking down the door, or their kid is wrecking the living room.

 

I’ll be the first to admit, it gets to you, and every so often you can’t help but unload on some poor person who has gotten them selves into a mess and wants me to get them out. Again, that does not make it right. But we are all people.

 

In the case of the casual cachers? Who knows. While this may be the first time you have run into this particular ranger, it may be the 200th time the ranger has had to explain that park rules prohibit caching. Again, unloading on someone who has nothing to do with the previous 199 cachers is not productive, but it happens, because rangers are people too.

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I was out some local cachers in a Cal. state park a few years ago and a ranger asked us what we were doing, we told him and he told us the Geocache was illegal in Ca. state parks, of course he was wrong, but he was the idiot with the gun and badge, so we left. There must be 100 caches in the park we were in.

 

Are you making a distinction between legal/illegal and prohibited/permitted?

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But to get back to the OP’s topic, Rangers, just like police and sheriffs deputies, are people. We all have baggage, and sometimes it spills over into our work lives. That being said, it does not excuse poor behavior.

In spite of my post where I indicated that officers sometimes respond differently when their BS detector goes off, I too recognise that this is NOT acceptable behaviour and I was not trying to excuse it bout only trying to give a possible explanation therefor.

 

LEOs are taught to be respectful and professional at all times and that is what IS expected of them. But human nature cannot be conveniently "turned off" when one puts on a uniform and cops DO sometimes go overboard.

 

Also many times it is only the citizen's perspective that the officer was rude, when in fact even if there was indeed rudeness, it was unintended. Kinda like forum posts- sometimes they don't come across right.

 

LEO is a tough job. I like to give them a BIG benefit of a doubt.

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This is a very interesting thread. It's unfortunate that the OP had a negative experience. We've met Conservation Officers in the woods and always had pleasant conversations. We even showed one where a container was, how to log it, etc. We explained the benefits of CITO and he actually thanked us.

 

My advice is to research the rules in your area and even have printed copies with you in case you get questioned again. Don't let one bad experience keep you from enjoying your public lands.

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In public life it "takes all kinds." A case in point would be in my area where a land manager got a "stone in his Etnies" for some reason and banned all caches in "his" woods. Most of the banned caches BELONGED to the local Conservation Officer and were EXCELLENT caches. No reason given, just basically "Git off'n MY land!"

 

In very FEW cases are caches on public land in violation of actual LAW. Usually when they are banned it is just the judgment of the local manager; often resulting from a misunderstanding of the nature of the game, bad behaviour by a cacher, or misinterpretation of laws, rules, and regulations of the land in question.

 

There are actually quite a LOT of LEOs who are cachers. In the OP case, I would not be surprised if one of the local LEO cachers doesn't discuss caching with the "offensive" ranger over lunch sometime and they come to an understanding better suited to our hobby.

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While the ranger may not have had any good reason to be a jerk, responding in kind is just lowering yourself to his level AND potentially causing another ranger to actively work to ban geocaches from the area he is responsible for. It might feel good at the moment but it almost certainly is not the best way to deal with the situation.

 

If I am legally in a park, minding my own business and a ranger decides to harass me and threaten to fine me for doing something I have every right to be there doing, I don't care if I'm playing frisbee, geocaching, or picking my nose, he will not be intimidating me.

 

The situation has nothing to do with geocaching, it has to do with being treated improperly by another human being. I stick to my original resolution -- Tell him to go put out a fire or even better, tell him to go keep those rascally, hat-wearing bears away from my picnic baskets :laughing:

 

Who said anything about being intimidated? I choose my battles and I simply don't see why anyone in a rational state of mind would choose to get into a hassle with an overbearing jerk when hunting a cache. If you want to make an issue of it take it up with the land manager.

 

I stand by my point. Lowering yourself to his level by responding in kind does not help the sport. That is on topic. Your little rant really has nothing to do with the topic, rather it is all about you and how you can't be intimidated or have your rights and freedoms infringed by someone who you percieve to be overstepping their authority. Why is it that you can demand to be treated properly by other human beings but you are at the ready to treat those same human beings with contempt and scorn?

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Who said anything about being intimidated?

Good point. I have never been intimidated by "authority" figures, although there have been many times when we did not see eye to eye. Often I ended up being in the right. Sometimes I was wrong. In all cases I tipped my hat, bid them "Adieu" and resolved the issue later, without conflict. It has nothing to do with intimidation.

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