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Territorial permission?


9Key

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Recently, there has been an issue about some caches I have placed and their location. I have hidden caches all over the state of Texas in the 6 years I have been caching and was very surprised to hear that I needed to ask permission to hide caches that aren't in the town I live in. The caches in question are about 20 miles from where I live. I have hidden 480+ caches and this is the first time I've ever had a cacher scold me for hiding caches in his or her territory.

 

Personally I think everywhere is fair game. I welcome caches in my town - it gives me something close to home to find! I don't think of the suburb or Allen, Texas as "my turf".

 

What do you think? If you see a really great area with no caches and the area has been open the public for a year or more, are you responsible to notify every cacher who might live in that area and make sure it is okay with them? Or do you hide it and hope that people in the area will enjoy having another cache to find?

 

Note that this is not about asking for permission from landowners, but from other cachers.

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Recently, there has been an issue about some caches I have placed and their location. I have hidden caches all over the state of Texas in the 6 years I have been caching and was very surprised to hear that I needed to ask permission to hide caches that aren't in the town I live in. The caches in question are about 20 miles from where I live. I have hidden 480+ caches and this is the first time I've ever had a cacher scold me for hiding caches in his or her territory.

 

Personally I think everywhere is fair game. I welcome caches in my town - it gives me something close to home to find! I don't think of the suburb or Allen, Texas as "my turf".

 

What do you think? If you see a really great area with no caches and the area has been open the public for a year or more, are you responsible to notify every cacher who might live in that area and make sure it is okay with them? Or do you hide it and hope that people in the area will enjoy having another cache to find?

 

Note that this is not about asking for permission from landowners, but from other cachers.

 

There is no such permission required.

 

Having said that, a reviewer may question you if it is deemed to be too far for you to adequately maintain. Aside from that, it is between you, the landowner and the reviewer.

 

I do think there might be a little more to this story.

Edited by baloo&bd
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Well, if you want to cache in MY territor, you better pay me well... in chocolate! And money!

 

Now I just have to decide where my territory is, and create an appropriate flag. Sionopolis, on the Beta server? :anicute:

 

Seriously, though, cachers don't have to ask permission from other cachers, unless you planted a cache in their front yard?

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I would welcome someone coming out my way and hiding some caches. I would love to have more caches to find out this way, instead of looking at the map and seeing that most of the caches are mine. :anicute:

 

That said, anyone with that sort of attitude might be someone to keep some distance from . . .

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I would welcome someone coming out my way and hiding some caches. I would love to have more caches to find out this way, instead of looking at the map and seeing that most of the caches are mine. :anicute:

 

That said, anyone with that sort of attitude might be someone to keep some distance from . . .

 

Second that.

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Recently, there has been an issue about some caches I have placed and their location. I have hidden caches all over the state of Texas in the 6 years I have been caching and was very surprised to hear that I needed to ask permission to hide caches that aren't in the town I live in. The caches in question are about 20 miles from where I live. I have hidden 480+ caches and this is the first time I've ever had a cacher scold me for hiding caches in his or her territory.

 

Personally I think everywhere is fair game. I welcome caches in my town - it gives me something close to home to find! I don't think of the suburb or Allen, Texas as "my turf".

 

What do you think? If you see a really great area with no caches and the area has been open the public for a year or more, are you responsible to notify every cacher who might live in that area and make sure it is okay with them? Or do you hide it and hope that people in the area will enjoy having another cache to find?

 

Note that this is not about asking for permission from landowners, but from other cachers.

If you want to hide a couple up in my area on Minnesota...I would be more than happy to find them and then watch them for you!!!

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Please come to my home area and place as many caches as you like.

 

Not only will I not scold you, I will thank you for the hide. :anicute:

 

Lately I have been looking at the Google Maps cache mashup that's on each listing to check out cache densities in various areas. I pick a cache, click on the Google Map Search map (which, unexplainably is labled "Yahoo"), then zoom out until the scale reads 2 miles then check out the number of caches (I don't actually count them, the number is displayed). For Allen, Texas, it shows 363 caches displayed.

 

This was the second response from the San Diego area asking for more caches. When I did a Google Map Search for San Diego, at the 2 mi zoom level, 480 caches were displayed.

 

When I enter my hometown at the same zoom level I get 84 caches, and I own 25% of them. Clearly we are in greater need of caches than you guys.

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Territorial Permission? How terribly unfriendly & territorial!

IMHO - not needed... outside of the already-established reviewer process.

 

As for cache densities in our own hometown environs...

I tried the Cache Density measurement, looking at the Google Map set at the 2 miles scale...

 

nothing showed... I hit the refresh button...

 

nothing showed.... then I saw the little red box...

 

the one at the top of the map that says "Your search exceeded 500 caches".

I'm humbled by the density here in Anchorage AK... and remember, our town's a peninsula of sorts.

At the 2 mile scale, perhaps a quarter of the area seen is water surrounding the city on three sides.

 

So... if I was in a numbers race, this would be a terrific spot to visit.

If I was out to find caches hidden in lovely natural locales,

placed to highlight where the locals like to go recreate year-round,

this is definitely the place to be. C'mon up & see for yourself.

 

And 9Key... I'd be delighted to maintain any cache you'd like to place during your visit here.

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I think it's silly for anyone to complain about a cache from an "outsider". Like others in this thread I would welcome the opportunity to find it, not complain that you aren't from the area.

 

As far as territory is concerned, I think the reviewers are more than qualified to determine whether you have strayed from your territory. They'll do their best to make sure you don't place a cache that is too far away for you to maintain. If you can satisfy the reviewers you're not "out of your territory".

 

Edit to add:

I really like what Briansnat said too. He posted it while I was typing but it hits the nail on the head.

Edited by Trinity's Crew
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As for cache densities in our own hometown environs...

I tried the Cache Density measurement, looking at the Google Map set at the 2 miles scale...

 

nothing showed.... then I saw the little red box...

 

the one at the top of the map that says "Your search exceeded 500 caches".

I'm humbled by the density here in Anchorage AK... and remember, our town's a peninsula of sorts.

At the 2 mile scale, perhaps a quarter of the area seen is water surrounding the city on three sides.

That's impressive indeed! I visited Anchorage for the first time in December (nice to meetcha), and didn't realize you had such cache density! Seattle area is supposedly a hotbed of caching, but I just did the 2-mile scenario and

 

- Eastern suburbs around my house - 245 caches.

- North Seattle appears to have the highest concentration - 466 centered on Green Lake.

- Redmond, home of Microsoft and once considered the hellhole of caching - only 303 caches now. :anicute:

 

I guess we are slackers compared to other areas mentioned in this thread. Clearly, the Seattle area needs MORE caches, so 9Key, please come visit and place more caches for us to find. :drama:

Edited by hydnsek
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Recently, there has been an issue about some caches I have placed and their location. I have hidden caches all over the state of Texas in the 6 years I have been caching and was very surprised to hear that I needed to ask permission to hide caches that aren't in the town I live in. The caches in question are about 20 miles from where I live. I have hidden 480+ caches and this is the first time I've ever had a cacher scold me for hiding caches in his or her territory.

 

Personally I think everywhere is fair game. I welcome caches in my town - it gives me something close to home to find! I don't think of the suburb or Allen, Texas as "my turf".

 

What do you think? If you see a really great area with no caches and the area has been open the public for a year or more, are you responsible to notify every cacher who might live in that area and make sure it is okay with them? Or do you hide it and hope that people in the area will enjoy having another cache to find?

 

Note that this is not about asking for permission from landowners, but from other cachers.

I know exactly what you are talking about. While I have never witnessed this bizarre and aberrant (and abhorrent!) territorial attitude in my local area (i.e., MD, NoVA, nearby areas of PA and NJ, etc.), I have seen several posts and threads on the GC forums and on other regional forums initiated by posters who felt that cachers from other areas had no right to place caches in their county, and that the "outsider cachers", aka "foreign cachers", needed to "ask permission" to do so. In fact, I seem to remember that one guy (he was quite arrogant about the issue and about his own perceived god-like qualities...) who surfaced here on the GC fourms about a year ago and started a thread along the lines of "you need to ask my permission to hide caches in my county, because I am the best and I am the authority and I rule" got his bottom soundly spanked by most of the folks on the forum! I do not think that he ever returned to the forums, in fact!

 

So, if I were in your shoes, I would ignore the people who are claiming that you need their permission to hide caches in their territory, and, if they keep it up, I strongly suggest that you report them to the Animal Control authorities in their county; it may be that they are overdue for their rabies shots or distemper shots, or it may be that they need to be neutered or put to sleep.

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I might complain if a non-local hider suddenly came into my area and placed 100 really lame caches...but then, that's a risk of local hiders too.

 

If I wanted THAT spot you used, I should've already placed my cache there.

 

As long as you can maintain it, I don't see any reason to label a "territory".

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In some areas here in Socal we have a "Cache Tax". The tax is imposed when a cacher finds 50+ caches in a day. They must pay tax (place a cache in the area) to give back for all their finds. Its more of a courtesy then a rule guideline :anicute: , but its nice to honor those that went through the effort of hiding all those caches. Complementary logs are certainly a given.

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Recently, there has been an issue about some caches I have placed and their location. I have hidden caches all over the state of Texas in the 6 years I have been caching and was very surprised to hear that I needed to ask permission to hide caches that aren't in the town I live in. The caches in question are about 20 miles from where I live. I have hidden 480+ caches and this is the first time I've ever had a cacher scold me for hiding caches in his or her territory.

 

Personally I think everywhere is fair game. I welcome caches in my town - it gives me something close to home to find! I don't think of the suburb or Allen, Texas as "my turf".

 

What do you think? If you see a really great area with no caches and the area has been open the public for a year or more, are you responsible to notify every cacher who might live in that area and make sure it is okay with them? Or do you hide it and hope that people in the area will enjoy having another cache to find?

 

Note that this is not about asking for permission from landowners, but from other cachers.

I do think there might be a little more to this story.

Yes, definitely, but names and cache ID's are withheld for now. Just getting a feeling for which way people fall on this subject.

 

My territory is anywhere on the planet. Pay me royalties for each cache you place on earth! ;)

 

Personally, I would find their home coords and see how close I could get with the hardest puzzle I could imagine. :drama:

 

Seriously, I wouldn't worry about "territories", I would worry about the guidlines.

 

This includes being able to maintain it as the guidelines state. "As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache." How often do you archive a cache without trying to do maintenance first?

 

Also the guidelines talk about permanence. "Please do your best to research fully, hide wisely, and maintain properly for a long cache life."

 

I wonder how you can actually maintain your 482 caches. Well, 468 since 14 are events. A quick scan tells me about 200 of those are archived. Dozens lasted less than 3 months and at least a dozen less than 30 days. The shortest seemed to be 4 days. (From when it was published to when it was last found.)

 

4 days

4 days

6 days

13 days

I stopped counting.

 

Maybe the other cacher is not looking forward to a cache dropped by the roadside, posted and then archived before they can find it. :huh:

 

I have not placed a single cache that did not last a year except for my first. And even that one I "Reloaded" 100 feet away. Never have I archived after a cache after 4 days because "No one seems to like this park - oh well." :anicute:

 

Loch Cache

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odd complaint :drama: I have a couple of locations that are about 40-70 miles from home that I'd love to put a couple of caches but I have hesitated about planting them because of maint. concerns NOT about the locals. If it's a good spot and not already taken it's fair game.

 

I have peppered a local State Game Land with caches (my most favorite play ground) A local asked me if they could put a cache out there but they did not want to put one out because they thought I would get upset. I told them - me get upset???? over a cache that I did not hide, for me to find in my favorite area, I'd be honored :anicute:

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If I wanted THAT spot you used, I should've already placed my cache there.

 

I have numerous places that I have mentally targeted for caches, but haven't gotten around to placing one. Once in a while someone beats me to the spot. I'd be lying if said I didn't get a "Hey, he took my spot" feeling when I see a new cache pop up in one of my targeted spots, but it's not "my spot". If I really wanted it to be "my spot" I should have put the cache there first. And in the end, it's just more for me to find, so all is good.

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It can be annoying when you work on a cache location, container and cache page for a year (had to redo it once because of a cacher dropping out for a time) and then someone beats you to it with a plain simple box with nothing but a logbook in it.

 

He did pick a great location (else I wouldn't have been working on putting one there), but his execution needed some work. This was his first cache and my first one could have been better too.

 

He found 4 caches hid one and found one more in July of 07 and hasn't done anything since.

 

I was annoyed but just redid mine again a little further away and I think it is even better now and his will attract more people to the spot. Even if they decide not to do mine.

 

I don't own the area and he was the second person to put one there but only the first to get one published. The first one should have motivated me to be faster. :rolleyes:

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It can be annoying when you work on a cache location, container and cache page for a year (had to redo it once because of a cacher dropping out for a time) and then someone beats you to it with a plain simple box with nothing but a logbook in it.

 

He did pick a great location (else I wouldn't have been working on putting one there), but his execution needed some work. This was his first cache and my first one could have been better too.

 

He found 4 caches hid one and found one more in July of 07 and hasn't done anything since.

 

I was annoyed but just redid mine again a little further away and I think it is even better now and his will attract more people to the spot. Even if they decide not to do mine.

 

I don't own the area and he was the second person to put one there but only the first to get one published. The first one should have motivated me to be faster. :rolleyes:

Yep, been there. I spent a couple months scouting locations for a historical multicache in a park near me; each WP highlighted a particular bit of the mining history. Before I could close the deal, another cacher dropped in a mountain-biking multi, and amazingly, his WPs nearly all coincided with my historical locations (even though he had no idea of the history and chose the spots at random). Grrr. But I shoulda been faster in putting mine together.

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If I wanted THAT spot you used, I should've already placed my cache there.

 

I have numerous places that I have mentally targeted for caches, but haven't gotten around to placing one. Once in a while someone beats me to the spot. I'd be lying if said I didn't get a "Hey, he took my spot" feeling when I see a new cache pop up in one of my targeted spots, but it's not "my spot". If I really wanted it to be "my spot" I should have put the cache there first. And in the end, it's just more for me to find, so all is good.

 

Oh yeah, more than once I've had my eye on a certain location only to see another cache pop-up. Sure I felt that twinge of "dang", but I'd never complain about someone else using the same good spot I wanted and giving me a cache to seek out.

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I would be a little territorial about my area only to the point that caches are:

 

1. Hidden well.

 

2. Worth the effort.

 

3. Are within the guidelines.

Other than that it's fair game.

 

:D:rolleyes::blink::DB)B)

 

Now THAT's a knee slapper. Does everyone around Lancaster check in for you

stamp of approval? B)B)B) Edited by Snoogans
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Recently, there has been an issue about some caches I have placed and their location. I have hidden caches all over the state of Texas in the 6 years I have been caching and was very surprised to hear that I needed to ask permission to hide caches that aren't in the town I live in. The caches in question are about 20 miles from where I live. I have hidden 480+ caches and this is the first time I've ever had a cacher scold me for hiding caches in his or her territory.

 

Personally I think everywhere is fair game. I welcome caches in my town - it gives me something close to home to find! I don't think of the suburb or Allen, Texas as "my turf".

 

What do you think? If you see a really great area with no caches and the area has been open the public for a year or more, are you responsible to notify every cacher who might live in that area and make sure it is okay with them? Or do you hide it and hope that people in the area will enjoy having another cache to find?

 

Note that this is not about asking for permission from landowners, but from other cachers.

I know exactly what you are talking about. While I have never witnessed this bizarre and aberrant (and abhorrent!) territorial attitude in my local area (i.e., MD, NoVA, nearby areas of PA and NJ, etc.), I have seen several posts and threads on the GC forums and on other regional forums initiated by posters who felt that cachers from other areas had no right to place caches in their county, and that the "outsider cachers", aka "foreign cachers", needed to "ask permission" to do so. In fact, I seem to remember that one guy (he was quite arrogant about the issue and about his own perceived god-like qualities...) who surfaced here on the GC fourms about a year ago and started a thread along the lines of "you need to ask my permission to hide caches in my county, because I am the best and I am the authority and I rule" got his bottom soundly spanked by most of the folks on the forum! I do not think that he ever returned to the forums, in fact!

 

So, if I were in your shoes, I would ignore the people who are claiming that you need their permission to hide caches in their territory, and, if they keep it up, I strongly suggest that you report them to the Animal Control authorities in their county; it may be that they are overdue for their rabies shots or distemper shots, or it may be that they need to be neutered or put to sleep.

 

Yep, some folks just don't play well with others and can't leave well enough alone.

 

My take: Ya snooze, ya lose. :rolleyes:

 

Some folks just hafta look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

328897.jpg

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I had the same thing happen to me here in Kentucky. A local cacher became very upset, even to a point that they contacted Groundspeak and told them I took thier ideas and made them into a cache. It got them no where other than showing they was wasting their time making a big fuss.

 

Anyway, to make a long story short, nobody can claim a territory or area unless its their own private property.

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Recently, there has been an issue about some caches I have placed and their location. I have hidden caches all over the state of Texas in the 6 years I have been caching and was very surprised to hear that I needed to ask permission to hide caches that aren't in the town I live in. The caches in question are about 20 miles from where I live. I have hidden 480+ caches and this is the first time I've ever had a cacher scold me for hiding caches in his or her territory.

 

Personally I think everywhere is fair game. I welcome caches in my town - it gives me something close to home to find! I don't think of the suburb or Allen, Texas as "my turf".

 

What do you think? If you see a really great area with no caches and the area has been open the public for a year or more, are you responsible to notify every cacher who might live in that area and make sure it is okay with them? Or do you hide it and hope that people in the area will enjoy having another cache to find?

 

Note that this is not about asking for permission from landowners, but from other cachers.

 

I can see how you can be "disappointed" if someone placed a cache in a area that you were trying place caches, especially if it is small. Kind of like, it was my idea to put caches here. For someone to think that they "own" an area is ridiculous. If you take a long time between adding caches in "your area" you should expect someone to do the same if there is room.

 

I still can't understand why people wouldn't want more local caches to find.

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it could be that they do not want to have a bunch of caches in the area that are not going to be maintained

 

Dozens lasted less than 3 months and at least a dozen less than 30 days. The shortest seemed to be 4 days.

All of those would be a violation of the cache guidelines.

Texas is a big state, it could be that the OP is hidding caches that he cannot maintain

Edited by JohnnyVegas
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I live a couple of hours distance from 9Key, the OP. He has a number of caches hidden near where I live, and has been good at maintaining his caches around here. Not long ago, I notififed him of one that was missing and he immediately disabled it and replaced it soon thereafter. From my experience, it would seem to be a territorial issue, not a maintenance issue.

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With large numbers of caches that have been short lived, it sure look to be a problem placing caches that are not maintained

From the guidelines

 

Cache Permanence

 

When you report a cache on the Geocaching.com web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (“traveling caches”), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for events) most likely will not be published. If you wish to hide caches for an event, bring printouts to the event and hand them out there.

 

We realize that it is possible that a planned long-term cache occasionally becomes finite because of concerns with the environment, missing or plundered caches, or the owner’s decision to remove the cache for other valid reasons. Please do your best to research fully, hide wisely, and maintain properly for a long cache life.

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I do think there might be a little more to this story.

Yes, definitely, but names and cache ID's are withheld for now. Just getting a feeling for which way people fall on this subject.

 

Well, by the time I'm posting most people fall on the side of, "it's silly, and come hide some caches in my area". But personally, I've observed several territorial disputes and hard feelings caused by perceived territorial infringement throughout my general caching area (Northeastern U.S. and Ontario). This angst defnitely exists, it's just not the kind of thing anyone is going to step into this thread and admit to. :rolleyes:

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I think it's silly to assume that the area you are primarily setting caches in is "your territory", and that you have the right to scold outsiders who want to place a cache there.

 

Heck, if I ever got hassled by an overly-dominant area Cache hider, I'd shoot their rudeness right back at them, because you have every right to defend your hide.

But that's just me. :rolleyes:

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I love how there's a tendancy to look for "something deeper" or ways to discredit an OP when a valid question like this is posted. If you a)hide a cache and b)it meets the guidelines and then c)the reviewer approves it then what is the issue?

 

A cache hide is between reviewer, hider and, if necessary, property owner. Anal retentives need not get involved.

 

I'm pretty sure you could find some opinionated/bored cache somewhere that could find an issue with pretty much every cache owner and hider. Find the caches you like, hide what is allowed by the guidelines and play your own game. Yeesh.

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My territory is anywhere on the planet. Pay me royalties for each cache you place on earth! :D

 

Personally, I would find their home coords and see how close I could get with the hardest puzzle I could imagine. B)

 

Seriously, I wouldn't worry about "territories", I would worry about the guidlines.

 

This includes being able to maintain it as the guidelines state. "As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache." How often do you archive a cache without trying to do maintenance first?

 

Also the guidelines talk about permanence. "Please do your best to research fully, hide wisely, and maintain properly for a long cache life."

 

I wonder how you can actually maintain your 482 caches. Well, 468 since 14 are events. A quick scan tells me about 200 of those are archived. Dozens lasted less than 3 months and at least a dozen less than 30 days. The shortest seemed to be 4 days. (From when it was published to when it was last found.)

 

4 days

4 days

6 days

13 days

I stopped counting.

 

Maybe the other cacher is not looking forward to a cache dropped by the roadside, posted and then archived before they can find it. :blink:

 

I have not placed a single cache that did not last a year except for my first. And even that one I "Reloaded" 100 feet away. Never have I archived after a cache after 4 days because "No one seems to like this park - oh well." :rolleyes:

 

Loch Cache

The caches in question were placed in a park that opened a little over a year ago. This park is in an area of Dallas - oops, I mean "territory" - that is very sparsely populated with caches. Our local mountain biking group of which I am a member has built 8 miles of trails in the park and I placed 8 caches of various sizes over 3 miles of trails leaving about 4 miles untouched.

 

In another park in the same "territory" I placed two large ammo cans with high terrain ratings - one still hasn't been found. There has never been any caches in this part of the park to my knowledge.

 

Edit - wonky spelling

Edited by 9Key
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A better way to handle it is to extort money from people who place caches in your turf. If I see a new cache pop up on my terf, I have a little talk with the owner. "Nice little cache ya got there. Bet you'd hate to see something happen to it. You know this is a rough neighborhood, lots of mugglers out there. You give me 10 bucks a week, and I'll make sure your cache stays safe."

 

Just in case it's not painfully obvious, none of the above is in any way true.

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With large numbers of caches that have been short lived, it sure look to be a problem placing caches that are not maintained

From the guidelines

 

Cache Permanence

 

When you report a cache on the Geocaching.com web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (“traveling caches”), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for events) most likely will not be published. If you wish to hide caches for an event, bring printouts to the event and hand them out there.

 

We realize that it is possible that a planned long-term cache occasionally becomes finite because of concerns with the environment, missing or plundered caches, or the owner’s decision to remove the cache for other valid reasons. Please do your best to research fully, hide wisely, and maintain properly for a long cache life.

 

I wanted to comment on this because I've found a lot of 9key's caches. 9key has been hiding caches for a very long time. He is not one to be satisfied with a film canister under the lamp post. He tends to experiment with containers and locations. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. He keeps a very close eye on his caches and can tell when something doesn't work. He tends to pull these. What this has gained us in the Dallas area is some very imaginative caches!

 

So, yes, sometimes the hide doesn't work out. But he is very pro-active in correcting the problems, and sometimes that means an early retirement for a cache. But what fun we have finding the ones that do work

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Yep. My territory is anywhere I want to hide, and can maintain a cache! In the last few weeks I've gone 35 miles east and 25 miles west to replace wet logs. (I do wish that people would learn to reseal Ziplocks!!!) I also have caches 20 miles north. (And 4 miles south!) Two of the five caches hidden in town are mine. If someone (and you know who you are) puts a Downtown / Mainstreet (My town) cache out in my town, I will probably get a smidge miffed, and then run out for the FTF. If (you know who you are) gets there before I do, Go For It! (And I will hide one in your hometown!!! You can bet on it.)

Someone beats me to it. Oh, well. Go for it.

But my second sentence states my opinion: My territory is anywhere I want to hide, and can maintain a cache!

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