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was i right in claiming FTF?


joeluke

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yesterday we went after 2 fairly new caches both published in the last week that had not been found yet the one in paticular was called a moose loose in the woods and was pub 3/2/08 we found it and when we opened the container there were a couple of names above mine but the dates were 11/27/07 and dec 2,07 i signed my name and when i logged it on the cache page i noted the names already there and said that since it was just published this week i was still claiming FTF. Was i right to do that?

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yesterday we went after 2 fairly new caches both published in the last week that had not been found yet the one in paticular was called a moose loose in the woods and was pub 3/2/08 we found it and when we opened the container there were a couple of names above mine but the dates were 11/27/07 and dec 2,07 i signed my name and when i logged it on the cache page i noted the names already there and said that since it was just published this week i was still claiming FTF. Was i right to do that?

 

Did the log book have the name and/or waypoint of the cache on it? The cache owner may have inadvertently used an old log book from an archived cache. I see that the two names that pre-date the publish date don't show up on the online cache logs.

 

Unless a cache owner has some kind of special swag for a FTF, claiming a FTF doesn't mean anything except as a personal statistic that only you have the ability to increment. Claim FTF on any cache you want. Only you will know whether or not it's actually true.

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There are several possibilities:

 

1. The logbook was recycled from another cache. Are you FTF? Yes

 

2. The cache was previously listed on another website. Are you FTF? No

 

3. The cache owner gave the coordinates to friends or acquaintances before the cache was published. Are you FTF? No

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3. The cache owner gave the coordinates to friends or acquaintances before the cache was published. Are you FTF? No

 

Oh?

 

I had the coords of some caches that wheren't yet published. I was the FTF, but fealt I had an unfair advantage, so purposely did NOT claim FTF. (I did log on-line with the date I found it, FWIW).

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3. The cache owner gave the coordinates to friends or acquaintances before the cache was published. Are you FTF? No

 

Oh?

 

I had the coords of some caches that wheren't yet published. I was the FTF on some, but felt I had an unfair advantage, so purposely did NOT claim FTF. (I did log on-line with the date I found it, FWIW). Same for a recent cache that I helping the owner hide. I was the first to log it, but felt that since I help hide it, claiming FTF wouldn't be right.

Edited by emb021
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think you should claim FTF-WC (First to find without cheating)... I can't stand it when the cache owner and a buddy place the cache and the person with the owner claims a FTF on the cache. I'm seen it happen quite a few times. How sporting is that?

 

It's not cheating. It's the cache owner's cache and he has a right to advertise the coordinates any way he pleases. He could list them here, list them on another site, give them to friends or have a skywriter draw them in the sky. Nowhere is it written that he must list his cache here, and if he does, nowhere is it written that he has to list it here first.

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think you should claim FTF-WC (First to find without cheating)... I can't stand it when the cache owner and a buddy place the cache and the person with the owner claims a FTF on the cache. I'm seen it happen quite a few times. How sporting is that?

 

It's not cheating. It's the cache owner's cache and he has a right to advertise the coordinates any way he pleases. He could list them here, list them on another site, give them to friends or have a skywriter draw them in the sky. Nowhere is it written that he must list his cache here, and if he does, nowhere is it written that he has to list it here first.

 

All very true... But you have to admit its a bit retarded to be the only one to receive the coordinates in advance and then claim FTF on the cache.... That would be like a world class olympian jumping up and down with joy after beating everyone at the special olympics. It's just plain silly. :anicute:

 

Edit to add: Just for the record, nowhere does it claim anyone claimed the FTF on the cache after it was listed on GC.com... Feel free to claim it.

Edited by ReadyOrNot
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All very true... But you have to admit its a bit retarded to be the only one to receive the coordinates in advance and then claim FTF on the cache.... That would be like a world class olympian jumping up and down with joy after beating everyone at the special olympics. It's just plain silly

 

It certainly would be silly to brag about the FTF in that case, but it's not cheating and he's still FTF.

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The easiest way to find out if you are FTF is >>>>> to ask the cache owner. Everyone is telling yes you are or no your not. The only 2 people that it matters to is you and the cache owner.

 

Why should the cache owner get to decide that? It should be the first geocacher to find the cache AFTER being published. If the owners 2 year old child happens upon the ammo box and fiddles around with it and opens it up, I don't think that should constitute a find... Maybe technically it should?

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The easiest way to find out if you are FTF is >>>>> to ask the cache owner. Everyone is telling yes you are or no your not. The only 2 people that it matters to is you and the cache owner.

 

Actually the easiest way to find out if you are the FTF is to find out if you were the first to find the cache. If you were the first then nobody else can be FTF regardless of what the owner, finder or anybody else says.

 

A FTF is not something to be awarded. It's a simple statement of fact. Either you are first, or you aren't.

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The easiest way to find out if you are FTF is >>>>> to ask the cache owner. Everyone is telling yes you are or no your not. The only 2 people that it matters to is you and the cache owner.

 

Why should the cache owner get to decide that? It should be the first geocacher to find the cache AFTER being published. If the owners 2 year old child happens upon the ammo box and fiddles around with it and opens it up, I don't think that should constitute a find... Maybe technically it should?

 

Because it's the cache owner. Maybe he could ask if the log book was recycled or not or why there were other names in the logbook. It doesn't matter if it's found before or after publishing. I say the first name in the log book is the FTF unless there are other circumstances (like a recycled log book). As others have said, this isn't the only venue for Geocaching. Maybe it was posted somewhere else before it was posted here.

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The easiest way to find out if you are FTF is >>>>> to ask the cache owner. Everyone is telling yes you are or no your not. The only 2 people that it matters to is you and the cache owner.

 

Why should the cache owner get to decide that? It should be the first geocacher to find the cache AFTER being published. If the owners 2 year old child happens upon the ammo box and fiddles around with it and opens it up, I don't think that should constitute a find... Maybe technically it should?

 

Because it's the cache owner. Maybe he could ask if the log book was recycled or not or why there were other names in the logbook. It doesn't matter if it's found before or after publishing. I say the first name in the log book is the FTF unless there are other circumstances (like a recycled log book). As others have said, this isn't the only venue for Geocaching. Maybe it was posted somewhere else before it was posted here.

 

Honestly, how often does it happen that a cache is found 1st on terracaching.com? There are like 2 terracaches within 20 miles of my home. I don't think that's going to happen very often, so I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time worrying about it.

 

Someone claiming FTF who participated in placing the cache isn't a FIND anyways, so they can't be FTF... And claiming FTF before its published, assuming its not published on some other 3rd rate site is just plain stupid and shouldn't count as a find either.

 

so in 99.9% of the cases, the FTF is the first person to find the cache after being published on GC.com

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What difference does it make who claims it? As of now the geocaching points cannot be redeemed for much. No one wants to pull a muscle patting themselves on the back.

 

Had anyone considered the possibility that this cache was hid a while back and just not published yet? Maybe two cachers stumbled upon it before it was published. There are quite a few possibilities with this.

 

Either way, i just don't see why this is even being discussed. You found the cache. Wheeee.

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Had anyone considered the possibility that this cache was hid a while back and just not published yet?

 

Yeah, that's in the .01%.. Gimme a break! :anicute: What would happen if two cachers placed a cache within 10 feet of each other on the same day at different times, went home and both published them. Both caches got approved at the same by different reviewers. Probability and possibility are very different animals.

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I find it hard to beleive that two different people "stumbled upon" the same unpublished cache within a week of each other, and then nobody else did again for 3 months and it's not in an area that experiences heavy snowfall that makes it harder to find caches in those three months.

 

That may or may not be significant but I figure it's worth pointing out, since we're discussing probability vs. possibility.

 

As to the original question: I can claim to be my friend's best friend, but unless she concurs it doesn't mean squat.

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Give me a break! :drama: Consider the possibilities before you speak.

 

I never said that the cachers weren't together. People don't cache together? People don't get together to scout places for caches that they might place together.

 

But i am sure that cachers have never stumbled upon caches when they weren't looking for one. :anicute:

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Give me a break! :rolleyes: Consider the possibilities before you speak.

 

I never said that the cachers weren't together. People don't cache together? People don't get together to scout places for caches that they might place together.

 

But i am sure that cachers have never stumbled upon caches when they weren't looking for one. :blink:

 

They just stumbled across the unpublished cache 3 months before it was published. Okee dokee then.

B)B)B)B):D

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Had anyone considered the possibility that this cache was hid a while back and just not published yet?

 

Yeah, that's in the .01%.. Gimme a break! :rolleyes: What would happen if two cachers placed a cache within 10 feet of each other on the same day at different times, went home and both published them. Both caches got approved at the same by different reviewers. Probability and possibility are very different animals.

 

True story. A mountain in NJ had 1 cache on it for about 5 years. No other caches for nearly a mile in any direction. Last year on the same day, two cachers who didn't know each other each placed a cache on the mountain 60 feet from each other. They were there on the same day a few hours apart and chose essentially the same spot to place their caches. Of course only one was published. The other cacher had to move his cache. What are the chances of that?

 

OK back to your regularly scheduled topic.

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Give me a break! :rolleyes: Consider the possibilities before you speak.

 

I never said that the cachers weren't together. People don't cache together? People don't get together to scout places for caches that they might place together.

 

But i am sure that cachers have never stumbled upon caches when they weren't looking for one. :blink:

 

They just stumbled across the unpublished cache 3 months before it was published. Okee dokee then.

B)B)B)B):D

 

I've done it. Spurred the hider to get around to publishing.

Simple, regardless of how they came by the coordinates the first name in the book is the ftf. Arguing that someone cheated is silly, as there are no rules/guidelines to govern the concept.

Truth be told you can claim ftdasdacs (first to do a silly dance at cache site) for all I care.

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Give me a break! :rolleyes: Consider the possibilities before you speak.

 

I never said that the cachers weren't together. People don't cache together? People don't get together to scout places for caches that they might place together.

 

But i am sure that cachers have never stumbled upon caches when they weren't looking for one. :blink:

 

They just stumbled across the unpublished cache 3 months before it was published. Okee dokee then.

B)B)B)B):D

Yes some people hide caches which are there for a long time before published. Not everyone is so concerned about getting it published right away. Some people have other things they are involved with besides caching.

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A FTF is not something to be awarded. It's a simple statement of fact. Either you are first, or you aren't.

 

 

I hear (well, not physically) you say that over and over....basically on any FTF thread. But....many play the game as if FTF is an award. I'm sure you've heard of a FTF prize? Don't put your fingers in your ears and pretend that it isn't played that way. Some cache owners even proclaim in the cache description: congratulations to blah, blah for being the FTF!! I don't see any other proclamations about the 2nd-122nd finds. Coincidence?

 

So, it CAN be a prize along with being a statement of fact.

 

I suppose it's up to each cache owner to decide....but in my area (PHX, AZ) in general, it IS an award...statements of fact be damned!! Although, usually, the person who is first to find does get awarded the FTF. I mean....how else would it work? Why would the second to find get a FTF?? Craziness. So, there is something we can agree on.

 

And another thing, what about those co-FTF's?

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Quick "outsider" perspective looking at all of the above:

 

1. FTF is a category of the game that the website supports. It apparently means something to some people or it wouldn't even be listed. For all of the "YMMV" posts, obviously, there is some mileage to be gained for some people here. Might be ages before I'm a FTF, but I think it'd be pretty d**n cool if I got to be one some day. Might be just me, but who is saying they didn't get a small thrill out of their first FTF?

 

2. Is the seeker looking for FTF with regards to GC.com? If so, and it's not been published before, then why shouldn't that person get credit on GC.com? Every game has its beta testers. When the game goes live, the first guy to beat the game gets dibs when it comes to the live release of the game.

 

Is it a hollow victory? I dunno. I haven't been around enough to say yea or nay. Still, if the other logs are 3 months prior to publishing, one should assume (or not?) that it's a beta test or friends helping with the stash of the cache (SOC?) and leaving their mark.

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In short, while ignoring the tacky-as-hell Special Olympics reference, any time you see a timed sporting event, you'll see the course record, the national record, the event record and the world record. Who's to say there's not some value at least in getting the event record and who's to say that's not valid to claim the event record?

Edited by KermieD
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I'm sure you've heard of a FTF prize?

This is why i like STF and TTF prizes.

 

What if someone found a cache first and didn't sign the log. (For whatever reason, no pen, not a cacher, no arms, apathetic, illiterate, etc.)

 

In reality it would be unlikely for someone to be positive that they were FTF. (For the fact part, not the prize part.)

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I'm sure you've heard of a FTF prize?

This is why i like STF and TTF prizes.

 

What if someone found a cache first and didn't sign the log. (For whatever reason, no pen, not a cacher, no arms, apathetic, illiterate, etc.)

 

In reality it would be unlikely for someone to be positive that they were FTF. (For the fact part, not the prize part.)

 

I put a STF prize in the first cache that I ever placed.

 

FTF prize was a $5 bill

 

STF prize was a Canadian $5 bill.

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Honestly, how often does it happen that a cache is found 1st on terracaching.com? There are like 2 terracaches within 20 miles of my home. I don't think that's going to happen very often, so I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time worrying about it.

 

Actually that happens often here with a different listing site.

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Had anyone considered the possibility that this cache was hid a while back and just not published yet?

 

Yeah, that's in the .01%.. Gimme a break! :rolleyes: What would happen if two cachers placed a cache within 10 feet of each other on the same day at different times, went home and both published them. Both caches got approved at the same by different reviewers. Probability and possibility are very different animals.

 

It happened here too.

 

And here too for the same exact web cam (a few days apart.)

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If you were the first then nobody else can be FTF regardless of what the owner, finder or anybody else says.

 

A FTF is not something to be awarded. It's a simple statement of fact. Either you are first, or you aren't.

I'm kinda surprised that you're being so rigid about this. In many areas "FTF" *is* in fact an award bestowed by the cache owner, and might not necessarily be given to the literal "first" to find the cache. ("KFC" has nothing to do with Kentucky anymore.) Are you saying they can't play that way? Slippery slope...

Around here, folks who are hiking with the cache hider sign the log and claim the find, but not the FTF. (Usually... there was one exception a year or so ago that I still don't understand.)

I had this wild thought to start writing "FTF" in every cache I find, no matter how old, and see if anyone notices or comments...

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1. FTF is a category of the game that the website supports. It apparently means something to some people or it wouldn't even be listed.

 

That is not true. The website takes no position on FTFs and there is no facility for recording them. It's a game within a game played by a small subset of geocachers and totally unsanctioned by this website. You will not see the term FTF anywhere in this site's guidelines.

 

So, it CAN be a prize along with being a statement of fact.

 

I'm not referring to physical prizes. I'm talking about owners who treat FTFs as some sort of commodity that they can award or take away. e.g. "GeoJim gets the FTF because even though JeffGPS found it first, he did it before the park officially opened". Sorry, JeffGPS found it first so GeoJim can't be first to find no matter what JoeOwner or anybody says.

Edited by briansnat
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just to say something the other names that were there are local cachers and 1 have met and all them have exchanged emails with and i have email one of them to see if they know anything about it but i believe i was right in claiming FTF espically after reading all this. The other names defintly use this site and this site only to do their cacheing so more than likely i believe it is a recycled log. And as for the who cares attitude from some ppl it may not "count" for anything but personal feelings and some like myself are not FTFs very often and i get a thrill and we have a lil competition between fellow cachers here in the area (friendly competition here i know of other areas that its pretty harsh) we had one go for 3 weeks before FTF because its a pretty good hike and then 4 ppl including myself found it the same day which is why i even asked the question in the first place because in that case noticing 2 names before mine even though i logged them first i noted the other names were there first and congrats the actual FTFer

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If you were the first then nobody else can be FTF regardless of what the owner, finder or anybody else says.

 

A FTF is not something to be awarded. It's a simple statement of fact. Either you are first, or you aren't.

I'm kinda surprised that you're being so rigid about this. In many areas "FTF" *is* in fact an award bestowed by the cache owner, and might not necessarily be given to the literal "first" to find the cache. ("KFC" has nothing to do with Kentucky anymore.) Are you saying they can't play that way? Slippery slope...

It is more slippery when you start redefining the word "first". FTF means "First To Find (after the cache was published)". Just because an owner says that you should only find it during certain hours does not change the fact that someone Found It First.

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I put a STF prize in the first cache that I ever placed.

 

FTF prize was a $5 bill

 

STF prize was a Canadian $5 bill.

 

Looks like coming in second pays off sometimes :blink: .

 

Anyway, I think that the original poster should claim a first to find. As much as I understand the moderator's strict adherence to the letter of the laws of the game (is that not what moderators are for, after all) , there's a sense that the people who logged prior to publishing had an unfair advantage. Mind you, they hadn't logged as FTF's themselves, from what I've read.

FTF may not be an official award, but it is a widely recognized achievement that needs a bit of control. I think that FTF after publishing should be the normally accepted practice. I think if he posts as "FTF after publishing", he's okay. Just my two cents. (actually, my 2.01 cents, since I'm Canadian) :rolleyes:

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I put a STF prize in the first cache that I ever placed.

 

FTF prize was a $5 bill

 

STF prize was a Canadian $5 bill.

 

Looks like coming in second pays off sometimes :blink: .

 

Anyway, I think that the original poster should claim a first to find. As much as I understand the moderator's strict adherence to the letter of the laws of the game (is that not what moderators are for, after all) , there's a sense that the people who logged prior to publishing had an unfair advantage. Mind you, they hadn't logged as FTF's themselves, from what I've read.

FTF may not be an official award, but it is a widely recognized achievement that needs a bit of control. I think that FTF after publishing should be the normally accepted practice. I think if he posts as "FTF after publishing", he's okay. Just my two cents. (actually, my 2.01 cents, since I'm Canadian) :rolleyes:

 

Luckily, I think most people understand the meaning and generally agree on that meaning. Most people understand you can't find something if you already knew where it was to begin with. Most people understand a race starts for everyone at the same time (at publish time).. Some may say there is no race, but anyone who has been involved in a FTF race understands there absolutely is a race.

 

People getting FTF on caches aren't just stumbling upon it (although I don't doubt that occassionally happens)

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I agree.

 

I think that everyone who strives to be FTF understands that they are, therefore, trying to beat someone else to the cache. Therefore, it must be a competition. If it is a competition with a prize (the ability to say that you were FTF), then it is understood that there must be only one start of the race. That would logically be the point at which the cache is listed. It follows that finds made prior to listing would not be be FTFs.

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It follows that finds made prior to listing would not be be FTFs.

 

So instead if re-defining what the word "first" means, how about changing the name of the race.

 

Perhaps we can call it the First to Sign Log Post Published

 

Maybe the rules need to be clarified for the first to find race. There was a recent topic discussing if a FTF should stand if park rules were violated in the process. I think you posted in that topic, forgot what your stand was though. Mine was that first means first, regardless of any other factors (because I thought the owner didn't have the right to make that determination)... But I think you've taken the literal meaning just a little bit too far in this instance.

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It follows that finds made prior to listing would not be be FTFs.

 

So instead if re-defining what the word "first" means, how about changing the name of the race.

 

Perhaps we can call it the First to Sign Log Post Published

I thought FTF was shorthand for that.

 

I thought it was shorthand for first to find the cache.

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It follows that finds made prior to listing would not be be FTFs.

 

So instead if re-defining what the word "first" means, how about changing the name of the race.

 

Perhaps we can call it the First to Sign Log Post Published

I thought FTF was shorthand for that.

I think it goes without saying that FTF means after published. Otherwise, what is the point? And of course it requires signing the log to prove the find.

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