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Winter caching in Ontario


Fireguy106

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:lol: Well I've been set straight, given my inexperience caching please forgive me but I had assumed that the snowflake icon on a cache page attributes indicated that the listed cache was winter accessible. I interpreted that as meaning not only accessible but in fact (don't think its a word) findable.

Since I've recently been educated on this topic, I wondered how many also thought the same.

Would it not make sense that these caches be listed only if they were in fact something that could be found without digging, using metal detectors or by other means :anibad: Maybe an alternate cache page icon to indicate that these are "winter friendly" for the purpose of finding. Reading the cache description isn't always an indicator to where the cache is be it on the ground, in a tree or hanging. Any thoughts..... :laughing: anyone?

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I have been stymied at a number of "Winter Friendy" caches lately. In one, case, we encountered the owner who couldn't even find it. Her response: "Well, every other year, it was findable because we didn't get this much snow".

 

I have taken to reading the clue as well. Often that will say things that will indicate it is on the ground.

 

When I find a W/F attribute that is wrong, I ask the owner to remove it.

 

Very frustrating to snowshoe/hike a km or two only to find the cache buried in the snow.

Edited by Tequila
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Yeah, there are a few in Tiny for sure. I've done a couple in January that I doubt very much you could find today, especially after this past weekend. (Wait till this weekend, +6C and rain thurs and fri). We've had a more traditional winter this year as far a snow fall than we've had in a long time.

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Yeah, there are a few in Tiny for sure. I've done a couple in January that I doubt very much you could find today, especially after this past weekend. (Wait till this weekend, +6C and rain thurs and fri). We've had a more traditional winter this year as far a snow fall than we've had in a long time.

I agree that most winter friendly caches are not winter friendly. I found right now I stick to micro's and I watch the logs to see if there has been any recent finds. If there has been no finds for a couple of weeks or more, I tend to stay away. Recently there has been a lot of "Grab and Go" type caches and series', I've had better luck with them.

 

Hope I've been some kind of help. Just think, the clocks just sprung ahead, so spring must be right around the corner. :laughing:

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What is the snow situation in Southern Ontario? I was thinking of heading out there for a few pints (my uncle owns a pub in Burlington) and some caching but after this weekend I think everyone is up to their ear in the white stuff!

 

If you want to spend a great day in the outdoors down here, go to Clarington and do Luc & Sweety's new Whiskey Jack series. About 14 km of hiking (I recommend snowshoes). All caches are findable.

 

Look at GC182T0 for complete details.

Edited by Tequila
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Of the 22 active cache listings I have, 8 of them are findable even with all this snow. It may require some digging in the snow, but the clues are enough to tell you where to dig. Most of the rest are marginal. It's possible to find them, but you'll need some luck to dig at the right place.

At least one of my caches is simply not possible to find without heavy equipment. The last time I checked, it was buried under some three metres of snow and ice, and that was before the last two storms.This cache is currently disabled by winter, and just might have to remain disabled until some time in june!

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I think, if you hover the mouse over the snowflake icon, it clearly says "available in winter". It does not say winter friendly, or accessible without digging, or that it could or could not be covered in snow.

 

JMHO

 

That's just it, maybe there should be something like a winter friendly icon!

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I think, if you hover the mouse over the snowflake icon, it clearly says "available in winter". It does not say winter friendly, or accessible without digging, or that it could or could not be covered in snow.

 

JMHO

 

I think the AIW tag in a round about way means "easily accessible in Winter". Scouring around in 40 some odd centimeters of snow isn't my idea of easily accessible and therefore isn't all that "available". If any cache could be found during any season, there's really no point in specifying that it's available during a specific season.

 

That's my opinion on your opinion. :laughing:

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post something on the "Geocaching.com Web Site" forum

 

I find that the decision makers tend not to look at those threads unless you have a few pages of dialog on them though...

 

Ok, I'll start...

 

To whom it may concern,

 

I'm a Canadian geocacher who sometimes goes out in the Winter and attempts to find a few caches. In the past few weeks the snow has piled up in a significant manor to the point where I can't find a cache. Why can't I find it? It's buried in 30 centimeters of snow, that's why. However, I'm pretty sure that the cache page said it was "Available in Winter".

 

Judging on a "poll" taken by a few of my fellow Canadian cachers, we feel that this tag is misleading. To us, "Available in Winter" means that one shouldn't have to equip themselves with a shovel, blow torch or other tools to excavate and chisel the cache from it's hiding spot. Do you have any idea how annoying it is to trek two kilometers to a cache and not be able to find it due to it being submerged in what feels like an extension of the polar ice cap? And then there's the whole ordeal of grumbling all the way back to the car, going home, and posting a DNF.

 

It's not fair and it makes me want to whine, kick and scream until something gets done.

 

I pay $30 per year to this site... Fix this problem... Fix it now.

 

We, the Geocachers of the Great White North would like to see the tag "Available in Winter" changed to "Accessible in Winter" and by that we mean by not needing special tools or digging.

 

Thank you!

 

:anicute:

 

P.S. - Did I do good?

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Apparently, temporarily disabling a cache due to snow load is not acceptable. I had one of my winter friendly caches disabled due to its falling from its perch above the snow line and getting buried in the snow. I just got a note from a reviewer that it had been disabled too long, and that I should reactivate, or archive. Unfortunately, the 30 day timeline given by the reviewer will not allow the snow around the cache to recede to a level where I can actually find the ground, but so it is here in the great white "near north". :anicute:

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Apparently, temporarily disabling a cache due to snow load is not acceptable.

 

Really now? I'm sure I've come across quite a few "seasonal" caches that allow the cache to be disabled from whenever the snow flies until March 20. Oh well, I don't make the rules... I just break them. :anicute: (kidding - I'm a good boy)

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I think winter available has to be interpreted carefully. This year is NOT a normal snow year. I have a few caches (yes some in Tiny) that in most years ARE winter available. But not this year. In the 5 years I've cached, this is the first in which those caches of mine are a problem but then snow depths are way deeper than before. I would disable them temporarily, but that isn't considered appropriate now so I don't.

 

So, in my estimation, winter avavilable has to be interpreted in terms of a typical winter, not a year of record snow. Also, just because something is winter available should not be interpreted as meaning that you won't have to move some snow. I mean, snow can collect anywhere and be blown in anywhere depending on the winds.

 

So, I don't interpret it as meaning I can get at a cache without some difficulty. I interpret it as meaning that I have a better chance to find it than one marked Not Winter Available but it still may be hard to find depending on the conditions. Its also no disgrace to not find one in winter. A greater number of DNF's is one of the expectations of winter caching.

 

Go out, enjoy the day, and accept a miss or two as part of the game.

 

JD

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In my opinion, on the ground, should never be considered winter friendly. Even in years of light snow, you might be able to find the cache but often it is frozen in ice etc. I have seen several caches this winter that you risked destroying the container trying to remove it.

 

IMHO, it is in everyone's best interest to only use the W/F icon, if the cache is elevated.

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I do agree that most of these caches were accessible in previous winters however, weather trends are changing and based on the information I receive through the work I do is that these varying weather trends are what we are to look forward to in the future. We have been experiencing warmer winters over the last decade which may continue but will will see more and more freezing rain and probably dumpings of snow like this year. That said, the environment experts may been mistaken eh! :rolleyes:

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I do agree that most of these caches were accessible in previous winters however, weather trends are changing and based on the information I receive through the work I do is that these varying weather trends are what we are to look forward to in the future. We have been experiencing warmer winters over the last decade which may continue but will will see more and more freezing rain and probably dumpings of snow like this year. That said, the environment experts may been mistaken eh! :rolleyes:

 

Not to change the topic or anything... Just a quick comment on what you just said...

 

I was saying to my wife the other day that since all this snow has started to fly, I haven't heard of anyone crying about global warming or any other of the whining rigamorol that goes on during the Summer months.

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In my opinion, on the ground, should never be considered winter friendly. Even in years of light snow, you might be able to find the cache but often it is frozen in ice etc. I have seen several caches this winter that you risked destroying the container trying to remove it.

 

IMHO, it is in everyone's best interest to only use the W/F icon, if the cache is elevated.

I generally agree with you but sometimes you get surprised. I just received 2 find notices and 1 dnf on three of my caches that I would have said were impossible for the reasons you said. However, for whatever reasons the two that were found turned out to be in spots that for some reason didn't get all that badly covered. Yes I checked because I was surprised. I've also found a couple of caches that others couldn't in deep snow. It was a real sense of accomplishment.

 

So even there, its difficult to lay down a hard and fast rule about this issue or any other for that matter. It really comes down to the fact that the placer makes their best subjective judgement when making decisions about difficulty/terrain ratings and what attributes to assign to a cache. Sometimes they will be right and sometimes they will be wrong.

 

I think the best we can hope for is that we will find some in the winter and will have some dnf's. Now that I'm mostly through my fifth year of winter caching its clear to me that dnf's in winter are part of the game and not all winter available caches will be.

 

JD

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In my opinion, on the ground, should never be considered winter friendly. Even in years of light snow, you might be able to find the cache but often it is frozen in ice etc. I have seen several caches this winter that you risked destroying the container trying to remove it.

 

IMHO, it is in everyone's best interest to only use the W/F icon, if the cache is elevated.

I generally agree with you but sometimes you get surprised. I just received 2 find notices and 1 dnf on three of my caches that I would have said were impossible for the reasons you said. However, for whatever reasons the two that were found turned out to be in spots that for some reason didn't get all that badly covered. Yes I checked because I was surprised. I've also found a couple of caches that others couldn't in deep snow. It was a real sense of accomplishment.

 

So even there, its difficult to lay down a hard and fast rule about this issue or any other for that matter. It really comes down to the fact that the placer makes their best subjective judgement when making decisions about difficulty/terrain ratings and what attributes to assign to a cache. Sometimes they will be right and sometimes they will be wrong.

 

I think the best we can hope for is that we will find some in the winter and will have some dnf's. Now that I'm mostly through my fifth year of winter caching its clear to me that dnf's in winter are part of the game and not all winter available caches will be.

 

JD

 

I disagree. I just tried to find one of your Winter Friendly caches. And after 700 meter snowshoe, we got to ground zero and dug into four feet of snow. Never did find the cache. I don't think that qualifies for the W/F attribute.

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JD you are right in saying that we should expect DNFs at this time of the year and I accept that. I guess the whole point I was trying to get at is that there may be some need for a different icon or some more detail about the cache location just so that someone driving half a day or more to do some caching can't find it because it's ground based. Everyone interpretation of the winter available icon is different and I think that is where the problem lies. The winter available definition needs to be nailed down!

I have done several of your caches here (you must be the Don of caches in Huronia and surrounding area) which I really enjoy cause you pick really nice spots to put them in and have found most of them but not all and I can honestly say there was only one that I could not find due to snow loading. (That one on the Rotary trail is killing me!!!! I don't know if that one is due to snow or if it was muggled.)

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Again, there seems to be varying opinions on this matter and I believe it is something that needs clarification for both sides not that one is right and the other is wrong. I think there just needs to be something in place to define the icon "available in winter".

 

I've made a "request for description review" on the Geocaching.com Web Site Group so if you have any suggestions, please add them to the post. The only way to get clarification is to get GC to lay down some parameters or to simply define the icon so that it is clear for everyone.

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"So, in my estimation, winter avavilable has to be interpreted in terms of a typical winter, not a year of record snow. Also, just because something is winter available should not be interpreted as meaning that you won't have to move some snow. I mean, snow can collect anywhere and be blown in anywhere depending on the winds."

 

I disagree with this statement as winter available should mean exactley that it is available in winter without all the extra digging whether it be light or heavy snow. There is not a cache out there to my knowledge that is ablolutely not to, use Fireguy's word, "findable" if you have the right equipment and time but the icon should point us to those that we at least have a good chance at finding.

I have found a cache in winter, last winter to be exact that was buried in thigh deep snow with a clue that said hidden under a juniper bush and even the bush was out of sight due to snow. It didn't have the winter available icon so I would accept a DNF on it, but if using the winter available icon then I agree with Fireguy and Tequilla that you should at least have a better than not chance of finding it in winter.

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...is it safe to go caching now in Ontario without the need of pick axes, chisels and shovels? :laughing:

 

Here in London, England the tulips are in bloom and the willows are sprouting, :rolleyes: will it be the same at the end of the month in southern Ontario when we come over to do a spot of caching?

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...is it safe to go caching now in Ontario without the need of pick axes, chisels and shovels? :laughing:

 

Here in London, England the tulips are in bloom and the willows are sprouting, :rolleyes: will it be the same at the end of the month in southern Ontario when we come over to do a spot of caching?

 

It snowed yesterday in Barrie... But on the plus side the other 7 feet of snow have practically melted away

 

But I am in the N44 area.. there is still another 46 degrees of Canada north of here that are probably getting it worse off .. Suppose here is downright tropical :D

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...is it safe to go caching now in Ontario without the need of pick axes, chisels and shovels? :rolleyes:

 

Here in London, England the tulips are in bloom and the willows are sprouting, :D will it be the same at the end of the month in southern Ontario when we come over to do a spot of caching?

 

It snowed yesterday in Barrie... But on the plus side the other 7 feet of snow have practically melted away

 

But I am in the N44 area.. there is still another 46 degrees of Canada north of here that are probably getting it worse off .. Suppose here is downright tropical :D

 

I'm in N45, nearing the N46th parallel. There is only about 3 feet of the white stuff in the bush, and there is almost 3% of the farmers fields showing the tops of last years grass. :laughing:

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...is it safe to go caching now in Ontario without the need of pick axes, chisels and shovels? :laughing:

 

Here in London, England the tulips are in bloom and the willows are sprouting, :D will it be the same at the end of the month in southern Ontario when we come over to do a spot of caching?

 

It snowed yesterday in Barrie... But on the plus side the other 7 feet of snow have practically melted away

 

But I am in the N44 area.. there is still another 46 degrees of Canada north of here that are probably getting it worse off .. Suppose here is downright tropical :rolleyes:

 

I spent most of today in a Simcoe County Forest and off the trail there is still close to 3 feet of snow on the ground. We tried to find a couple of caches and it is still impossible to find things on the ground.

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...is it safe to go caching now in Ontario without the need of pick axes, chisels and shovels? :o

 

Here in London, England the tulips are in bloom and the willows are sprouting, :D will it be the same at the end of the month in southern Ontario when we come over to do a spot of caching?

 

It snowed yesterday in Barrie... But on the plus side the other 7 feet of snow have practically melted away

 

But I am in the N44 area.. there is still another 46 degrees of Canada north of here that are probably getting it worse off .. Suppose here is downright tropical :D

 

I'm in N45, nearing the N46th parallel. There is only about 3 feet of the white stuff in the bush, and there is almost 3% of the farmers fields showing the tops of last years grass. :o

 

Blimey, we're at N51st parallel, we would be lucky to get an inch of snow in a given year :D

 

So, basically we will have to bring the pick axes, chisels and shovels...and how about the mosquito repellent? We hear if the snow isn’t causing hindrance to caching these little blighters will be! :D

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...is it safe to go caching now in Ontario without the need of pick axes, chisels and shovels? :D

 

Here in London, England the tulips are in bloom and the willows are sprouting, :o will it be the same at the end of the month in southern Ontario when we come over to do a spot of caching?

 

It snowed yesterday in Barrie... But on the plus side the other 7 feet of snow have practically melted away

 

But I am in the N44 area.. there is still another 46 degrees of Canada north of here that are probably getting it worse off .. Suppose here is downright tropical :o

 

I'm in N45, nearing the N46th parallel. There is only about 3 feet of the white stuff in the bush, and there is almost 3% of the farmers fields showing the tops of last years grass. :D

 

Blimey, we're at N51st parallel, we would be lucky to get an inch of snow in a given year :D

 

So, basically we will have to bring the pick axes, chisels and shovels...and how about the mosquito repellent? We hear if the snow isn’t causing hindrance to caching these little blighters will be! :D

 

By the end of April most of the snow will be gone from the bush. There will be some exceptions where the canopy keeps the sun from reaching the ground. This was an exception winter for the area.

 

Where are you going?

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It snowed yesterday in Barrie... But on the plus side the other 7 feet of snow have practically melted away

 

But I am in the N44 area.. there is still another 46 degrees of Canada north of here that are probably getting it worse off .. Suppose here is downright tropical :o

The majority of the lamp posts here in Toronto have had enough snow melt that you'll be able to grab plenty of those urban micros that everyone over in the main forum loves so much.

 

dave

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Where are you going?

 

...a whole list of places; Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto, Niagara Falls, Windsor, Detorit, London then onto Brandon where we will dip into North Dakota and Saskatchewan...I think that's it. :)

Edited by goldpot
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It snowed yesterday in Barrie... But on the plus side the other 7 feet of snow have practically melted away

 

But I am in the N44 area.. there is still another 46 degrees of Canada north of here that are probably getting it worse off .. Suppose here is downright tropical :D

The majority of the lamp posts here in Toronto have had enough snow melt that you'll be able to grab plenty of those urban micros that everyone over in the main forum loves so much.

 

dave

 

...I can't wait :)

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...and how about the mosquito repellent? We hear if the snow isn’t causing hindrance to caching these little blighters will be! :)

 

Don't count on it. The mosquitoes are out here when there's still more than a foot of snow in the bush. :D

 

Of course you know that we're just yanking your chain a little, don't you? :D

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...and how about the mosquito repellent? We hear if the snow isn’t causing hindrance to caching these little blighters will be! :)

 

Don't count on it. The mosquitoes are out here when there's still more than a foot of snow in the bush. :laughing:

 

Of course you know that we're just yanking your chain a little, don't you? :D

 

No... :D

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Yesterday many geocaches had reviewer notes placed on them because they have been disabled for an extended period of time. It nearly every case it was because the cache owner has indicated that the reason for disabling the cache is that it is under snow or that because of the snow the cache cannot be replaced or returned.

 

Definitely there has been more snow this year than in previous years. The amount of snow has made it challenging for people to find caches. It has also made is hard to repair caches that need some attention.

 

But at the same time there are many caches out there that are disabled for the wrong reasons. Disabling a cache is for caches that will be repaired in a few weeks like when logbooks are soaked, containers are cracked or when the whole cache goes missing. The reasons for disabling a cache are the same in every season.

 

Disabling is not for "I've removed the cache for the winter", "There's alot of snow" and "I can't get out there for four months cause I don't cache in the snow". Many of these disabled caches are also still being found and logged during this period which shows they should not be disabled at all.

 

During the winter time there should be an expectation that snow may be a factor. Adding the "Available in Winter" / "Not Available in Winter" icon may help and adding text to your cache page about weather conditions is a good idea.

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After taking some very valid concerns to a discussion with other reviewers and some Groundspeak staff there will be an update on some of the notes for disabled caches around Ontario. In general, it is considered acceptable to disabled a cache for winter or snow related reasons but they will be evaluated on a case by case basis to make sure. This should take place over the course of the weekend. The old notes will be removed and new ones posted if changes apply.

 

It is still important that every effort should be made to get disabled caches back to an active status as quickly as possible and posting notes by owners on a monthly basis to keep people informed of the situation is still a necessity for all disabled caches.

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