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Obituary of a Garmin 400t


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Obituary of a Colorado 400t: SN 13XX died a long and agonizing death today. Along with all of the other problems, this 400t suffered continued power loss (shut down) every time it was turned on. This issue became commonplace over the last couple of weeks. Along with another and perhaps related problem was a continued blank screen for cache descriptions. For the last few days this was a constant problem along with more frequent shut downs until the unit would not run at all. Mrs. CCC (Celtic Cacher Clan) has become really frustrated with her new gadget. So today when we went through these two problems yet again I told her I would return it for a new one. I went to REI and took advantage of their great return policy walking out with an SN 21XX unit. I found it to have the same larger memory, thank goodness. It appears to be an “M” chipset as that came up when updating to 2.60. So now we have a “G” and an “M” and will be able to compare functionality. While speaking to the REI sales person, she told me, as we already know, that the Colorado has many problems and that Garmin was not giving much information to them either. She told me about REI’s experience with the Triton that resulted in the Triton being pulled from being sold. REI has encouraged potential customers to read the reviews for the Colorado before purchasing one. I checked REI’s website and found only 20 reviews there of the Colorado. Here is the link for the REI site for reviewing the Colorado (http://www.rei.com/product/754440). I would encourage anyone who has purchased a Colorado from REI to go to their site and provide a review. I know I am going to. While Garmin may not respond to their customers with the status of Colorado they may want to respond to one of their biggest outlets for sales before the Colorado goes the way of the Triton with REI. Waiting for the next update :unsure:

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Obituary of a Colorado 400t: SN 13XX died a long and agonizing death today. Along with all of the other problems, this 400t suffered continued power loss (shut down) every time it was turned on. This issue became commonplace over the last couple of weeks. Along with another and perhaps related problem was a continued blank screen for cache descriptions. For the last few days this was a constant problem along with more frequent shut downs until the unit would not run at all. Mrs. CCC (Celtic Cacher Clan) has become really frustrated with her new gadget. So today when we went through these two problems yet again I told her I would return it for a new one. I went to REI and took advantage of their great return policy walking out with an SN 21XX unit. I found it to have the same larger memory, thank goodness. It appears to be an “M” chipset as that came up when updating to 2.60. So now we have a “G” and an “M” and will be able to compare functionality. While speaking to the REI sales person, she told me, as we already know, that the Colorado has many problems and that Garmin was not giving much information to them either. She told me about REI’s experience with the Triton that resulted in the Triton being pulled from being sold. REI has encouraged potential customers to read the reviews for the Colorado before purchasing one. I checked REI’s website and found only 20 reviews there of the Colorado. Here is the link for the REI site for reviewing the Colorado (http://www.rei.com/product/754440). I would encourage anyone who has purchased a Colorado from REI to go to their site and provide a review. I know I am going to. While Garmin may not respond to their customers with the status of Colorado they may want to respond to one of their biggest outlets for sales before the Colorado goes the way of the Triton with REI. Waiting for the next update :unsure:

 

Yes I know i messed up the title, and I can't fix it in edit :D and if anyone would ask, this was at REI, Seattle otherwise known as the mothership.

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Sounds pretty bad, and I have been without a Colorado GPS since Sunday. My 300 had the cronic shutoffs, since, just minutes after purchase, and later, when it was plugged into the USB port.

 

I am afraid that the Colorado is almost as bad as the Tritons, but at least Garmin, is working on the problems. I may get a replacement 400t sometime, as things work out.

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Yes I know i messed up the title, and I can't fix it in edit :unsure: and if anyone would ask, this was at REI, Seattle otherwise known as the mothership.

To have your topic edited, contact a moderator either by forum private message or by using the "report this post" feature. A helpful fellow geocacher reported the post for you, and I made the edit. Happy to be of service, and sorry to hear of your troubles.

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Yes I know i messed up the title, and I can't fix it in edit :unsure: and if anyone would ask, this was at REI, Seattle otherwise known as the mothership.

To have your topic edited, contact a moderator either by forum private message or by using the "report this post" feature. A helpful fellow geocacher reported the post for you, and I made the edit. Happy to be of service, and sorry to hear of your troubles.

Thank you :D

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I have a Colorado 400t that is experiencing sporadic shutdowns. Sometimes it happens as I am navigating through menus, other times I'll take it out of my pocket and find that it powered off by itself. I thought it might be the batteries since I'm using rechargeable Energizer 2500mAh NIMH but the problem also occurs with regular alkaline and lithium. This Colorado has also had problems correctly reporting battery life. I'll put in a fresh set of batteries and get a warning that the batteries are low five minutes later but the unit stays powered on for hours. I haven't seen this problem in the colorado wikispace issue list so I'm not sure how common it is. This Colorado is from REI with S/N 18XXXXXXX. Is this problem likely caused by Garmin's hardware, bad batteries, or a software issue?

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Well, after exploring the clock/alarm problem with my otherwise fine working 400t with the Garmin folks for two weeks, the tech person asked me to do a "reset"... two soft keys & power on... Did that and unit did boot up, but then had lost its topo base map! Even though all the proper files were still in the memory and verified by Garmin thru a live hookup session and checked by their software folks... Does not even show up on map select menu. So, 18Z000364 is on its way back and new one being sent next day air by Garmin.

 

I am still happy with the 400t and Garmin and am looking forward to the replacement unit. I had got the original unit in mid January online for $512 and no sales tax which was better than my local REI (Seattle) of $599 + 8.x% sales tax... I knew that I would be dealing with Garmin if any issues, but the price difference was worth it.

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I had a 400t which continued to shut down or get low battery warnings just as others have stated. I was using 2700mA Sanyo rechargeables & tried alkaline with the same results. The rechargeables that got the low battery warning were then put into the 60CSX an ran for a good 14 hrs. Garmin said to return it to the distributor which I did but I decided not to replace it at this time. I had to pay a restocking charge & decided to wait to purchase another one. The serial number was 18Z004075. Hopefully these problems are all firmware related & they will be fixed through new firmware releases.

Edited by TheSurfcaster
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I'm presently on my second 400t. My first one was returned less than a week after purchase. It was so bad it would glitch almost every time I pressed one of the soft keys. The one I presently have is an 18Zxxxxxx and functions much better than the original. I'm running with v2.40. I have the occasional lock up and several times the display has gone completely white on me. The really annoying problem is every time I plug or unplug from the external power supply I have to restart. I'm anxious to see how it responds to the latest firmware update when it becomes available. I'm assuming I'm not the only one annoyed by this problem. What ever happened to Garmin's 30 sec. time out feature? :unsure::D

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I had a 400t which continued to shut down or get low battery warnings just as others have stated. I was using 2700mA Sanyo rechargeables & tried alkaline with the same results. The rechargeables that got the low battery warning were then put into the 60CSX an ran for a good 14 hrs. Garmin said to return it to the distributor which I did but I decided not to replace it at this time. I had to pay a restocking charge & decided to wait to purchase another one. The serial number was 18Z004075. Hopefully these problems are all firmware related & they will be fixed through new firmware releases.

 

I don't know where you purchased it, but they shouldn't charge a restocking fee for exchanging a faulty product. If they do, call Garmin and set up the exchange through them.

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Obituary of a Colorado 400t: SN 13XX died a long and agonizing death today. Along with all of the other problems, this 400t suffered continued power loss (shut down) every time it was turned on. This issue became commonplace over the last couple of weeks. Along with another and perhaps related problem was a continued blank screen for cache descriptions. For the last few days this was a constant problem along with more frequent shut downs until the unit would not run at all. Mrs. CCC (Celtic Cacher Clan) has become really frustrated with her new gadget. So today when we went through these two problems yet again I told her I would return it for a new one. I went to REI and took advantage of their great return policy walking out with an SN 21XX unit. I found it to have the same larger memory, thank goodness. It appears to be an “M” chipset as that came up when updating to 2.60. So now we have a “G” and an “M” and will be able to compare functionality. While speaking to the REI sales person, she told me, as we already know, that the Colorado has many problems and that Garmin was not giving much information to them either. She told me about REI’s experience with the Triton that resulted in the Triton being pulled from being sold. REI has encouraged potential customers to read the reviews for the Colorado before purchasing one. I checked REI’s website and found only 20 reviews there of the Colorado. Here is the link for the REI site for reviewing the Colorado (http://www.rei.com/product/754440). I would encourage anyone who has purchased a Colorado from REI to go to their site and provide a review. I know I am going to. While Garmin may not respond to their customers with the status of Colorado they may want to respond to one of their biggest outlets for sales before the Colorado goes the way of the Triton with REI. Waiting for the next update :unsure:

 

Yes I know i messed up the title, and I can't fix it in edit :D and if anyone would ask, this was at REI, Seattle otherwise known as the mothership.

 

Well I just have a few things to say because I know that Garmin reads these threads. I have not been vocal at all regarding the 400T because Mr. CC has kept the info out there for us both. So what I will say is I am deeply disappointed in this product. You do not pay this amount of money out for something that works half the time. When CC asked if I wanted him to take this back and my words, be done with it, I was completely ready to say yep, bag the whole thing and get me a tried and true reliable one (60CSx). CC convinced me to give it another try and that it may just be the specific unit. I will try this out but I am so thankful that we purchased these at REI where they have an outstanding return policy. This product was released way too early. This product, regardless of what anyone tries to tell me, clearly has not been tested by true geocachers, not a tech person who happens to cache once in a while. There are a lot of people I can personally think of that would have been more than willing to beta test this and give you an honest opinion of its functionality for geocaching. The ticker for me is that really, how long will the shelf life be for this unit. Garmin, you're way too good of a company to release such a shotty product. IMHO

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I suppose I had better knock on wood! My 400t (from GPSNow) is working flawlessly and I love it. No issues on boot up or start up and it doesn't even suck batteries as bad as I thought I would. I suppose I should check the serial number, but I haven't bothered yet. My 400t has a long life to go before it gets an obit.

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Obituary of a Colorado 400t: SN 13XX died a long and agonizing death today. Along with all of the other problems, this 400t suffered continued power loss (shut down) every time it was turned on. This issue became commonplace over the last couple of weeks. Along with another and perhaps related problem was a continued blank screen for cache descriptions. For the last few days this was a constant problem along with more frequent shut downs until the unit would not run at all. Mrs. CCC (Celtic Cacher Clan) has become really frustrated with her new gadget. So today when we went through these two problems yet again I told her I would return it for a new one. I went to REI and took advantage of their great return policy walking out with an SN 21XX unit. I found it to have the same larger memory, thank goodness. It appears to be an “M” chipset as that came up when updating to 2.60. So now we have a “G” and an “M” and will be able to compare functionality. While speaking to the REI sales person, she told me, as we already know, that the Colorado has many problems and that Garmin was not giving much information to them either. She told me about REI’s experience with the Triton that resulted in the Triton being pulled from being sold. REI has encouraged potential customers to read the reviews for the Colorado before purchasing one. I checked REI’s website and found only 20 reviews there of the Colorado. Here is the link for the REI site for reviewing the Colorado (http://www.rei.com/product/754440). I would encourage anyone who has purchased a Colorado from REI to go to their site and provide a review. I know I am going to. While Garmin may not respond to their customers with the status of Colorado they may want to respond to one of their biggest outlets for sales before the Colorado goes the way of the Triton with REI. Waiting for the next update :unsure:

 

Yes I know i messed up the title, and I can't fix it in edit :D and if anyone would ask, this was at REI, Seattle otherwise known as the mothership.

 

Where did you find v2.60?

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Obituary of a Colorado 400t: SN 13XX died a long and agonizing death today. Along with all of the other problems, this 400t suffered continued power loss (shut down) every time it was turned on. This issue became commonplace over the last couple of weeks. Along with another and perhaps related problem was a continued blank screen for cache descriptions. For the last few days this was a constant problem along with more frequent shut downs until the unit would not run at all. Mrs. CCC (Celtic Cacher Clan) has become really frustrated with her new gadget. So today when we went through these two problems yet again I told her I would return it for a new one. I went to REI and took advantage of their great return policy walking out with an SN 21XX unit. I found it to have the same larger memory, thank goodness. It appears to be an “M” chipset as that came up when updating to 2.60. So now we have a “G” and an “M” and will be able to compare functionality. While speaking to the REI sales person, she told me, as we already know, that the Colorado has many problems and that Garmin was not giving much information to them either. She told me about REI’s experience with the Triton that resulted in the Triton being pulled from being sold. REI has encouraged potential customers to read the reviews for the Colorado before purchasing one. I checked REI’s website and found only 20 reviews there of the Colorado. Here is the link for the REI site for reviewing the Colorado (http://www.rei.com/product/754440). I would encourage anyone who has purchased a Colorado from REI to go to their site and provide a review. I know I am going to. While Garmin may not respond to their customers with the status of Colorado they may want to respond to one of their biggest outlets for sales before the Colorado goes the way of the Triton with REI. Waiting for the next update :)

Thanks for the link. I submitted a positive review as I have been nothing but happy with the unit since the 2.4 firmware upgrade. Even before the upgrade I was OK with the workarounds.

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Obituary of a Colorado 400t: SN 13XX died a long and agonizing death today. Along with all of the other problems, this 400t suffered continued power loss (shut down) every time it was turned on. This issue became commonplace over the last couple of weeks. Along with another and perhaps related problem was a continued blank screen for cache descriptions. For the last few days this was a constant problem along with more frequent shut downs until the unit would not run at all. Mrs. CCC (Celtic Cacher Clan) has become really frustrated with her new gadget. So today when we went through these two problems yet again I told her I would return it for a new one. I went to REI and took advantage of their great return policy walking out with an SN 21XX unit. I found it to have the same larger memory, thank goodness. It appears to be an “M” chipset as that came up when updating to 2.60. So now we have a “G” and an “M” and will be able to compare functionality. While speaking to the REI sales person, she told me, as we already know, that the Colorado has many problems and that Garmin was not giving much information to them either. She told me about REI’s experience with the Triton that resulted in the Triton being pulled from being sold. REI has encouraged potential customers to read the reviews for the Colorado before purchasing one. I checked REI’s website and found only 20 reviews there of the Colorado. Here is the link for the REI site for reviewing the Colorado (http://www.rei.com/product/754440). I would encourage anyone who has purchased a Colorado from REI to go to their site and provide a review. I know I am going to. While Garmin may not respond to their customers with the status of Colorado they may want to respond to one of their biggest outlets for sales before the Colorado goes the way of the Triton with REI. Waiting for the next update :)

 

Yes I know i messed up the title, and I can't fix it in edit :) and if anyone would ask, this was at REI, Seattle otherwise known as the mothership.

 

Where did you find v2.60?

2.6 is for the GPS software, not the firmware ( which is 2.4 for the latest and greatest ).

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I suppose I had better knock on wood! My 400t (from GPSNow) is working flawlessly and I love it. No issues on boot up or start up and it doesn't even suck batteries as bad as I thought I would. I suppose I should check the serial number, but I haven't bothered yet. My 400t has a long life to go before it gets an obit.

 

Same here so far.

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I have a Colorado 400t that is experiencing sporadic shutdowns. Sometimes it happens as I am navigating through menus, other times I'll take it out of my pocket and find that it powered off by itself. I thought it might be the batteries since I'm using rechargeable Energizer 2500mAh NIMH but the problem also occurs with regular alkaline and lithium. This Colorado has also had problems correctly reporting battery life. I'll put in a fresh set of batteries and get a warning that the batteries are low five minutes later but the unit stays powered on for hours. I haven't seen this problem in the colorado wikispace issue list so I'm not sure how common it is. This Colorado is from REI with S/N 18XXXXXXX. Is this problem likely caused by Garmin's hardware, bad batteries, or a software issue?

I had a 400t which continued to shut down or get low battery warnings just as others have stated. I was using 2700mA Sanyo rechargeables & tried alkaline with the same results. The rechargeables that got the low battery warning were then put into the 60CSX an ran for a good 14 hrs. Garmin said to return it to the distributor which I did but I decided not to replace it at this time. I had to pay a restocking charge & decided to wait to purchase another one. The serial number was 18Z004075. Hopefully these problems are all firmware related & they will be fixed through new firmware releases.

I have the same problems with my Colorado 300 (bought 1.5 months ago).

 

I am getting sporadic low battery warning, for example 2x today during some 2 hour long bike trip, it shows up and disappears on its own so and if it was not for the sound signal, I would not have noticed.

 

I have also experienced rare problems when pressing manipulating the unit, it either:

- shuts down (I have seen one case when unit shut down on its own)

- freezes (had to pull out batteries)

- stops responding to input for a second or two

 

On one occasion, I have seen rock-n-roller stop working while other buttons still worked. I could not adjust backlight level or zoom in or out. Restarting the unit fixed the problem.

 

I am sure it is not because of batteries; I use year old Duracells 2650mAh I used without any problem with 76CSx before.

 

I'll wait for next firmware update and if these problems persist, I'll try to get the unit replaced. I would like to believe it is software problem only but if it was, everyone would see it. Best we can hope for is that it is something which software can fix.

 

Might be interesting to do a survey to find out what is percentage of people who have low battery warning or shutdown issues.

 

Does anyone know whether backlight goes down when low battery warning shows up?

Edited by Tomas4x4
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I suppose I had better knock on wood! My 400t (from GPSNow) is working flawlessly and I love it. No issues on boot up or start up and it doesn't even suck batteries as bad as I thought I would. I suppose I should check the serial number, but I haven't bothered yet. My 400t has a long life to go before it gets an obit.

If you have a "flawlessly" working 400t you should send it back to Garmin so they can clone it for the rest of us :unsure::blink: Waiting for the next update :huh:

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Might be interesting to do a survey to find out what is percentage of people who have low battery warning or shutdown issues.

 

Does anyone know whether backlight goes down when low battery warning shows up?

 

I am having similar issues with occasional low battery warnings which disappear in seconds and do not otherwise seem to affect the operation of the unit. I also get odd battery meter readings and poor battery life (5-6 hours) on alkaline non-rechargeables. Have a 2-week old open call with Garmin which is getting me nowhere fast.

 

2.40 allows you to turn off the backlight limiting. This appears to work up to a point. However, if the battery gets low enough the unit will still shut off the backlight (or turn it way down -- I can't tell for sure).

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I'm in the same boat. I'm getting about 5-6 hours on alkalines and have had my unit stop responding twice so far, that required me to pull the batteries. I like the gps unit a lot, but the poor battery life and lock ups are starting to irritate me. I seriously think the battery meter needs a lot more work!

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We were out this weekend and at some point got a low battery warning. I checked the battery meter and it was down to one red bar. We finished caching (another 30-45 minutes) and shut the unit off. I popped the batteries into the charger and they only took about 1600-1700 mAh charge -- I think they are 2400-1500 mAh batteries. Not sure if the batteries are sick (they are older) or if the unit just couldn't use the full capacity. Plan B is to purchase a new set of super-high capacity batteries and give them a shot.

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I think the way the power meter is interpreting battery capacity still needs tweaking. After 5-6 hours when my Colorado says the batteries are dead and will no longer power up, I can stick those same batteries in an eTrex and it will power up showing about 75% full capacity and work just fine.

 

I know that the Colorado is more power hungry, but to say these batteries are dead at that level just means the battery meter is broken period and needs further investigation into why this is happening. I talked to Garmin this morning and all they said was use better batteries and stop using alkalines and go to niMh rechargeable's. They know there is an issue and are looking into it.

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I think the way the power meter is interpreting battery capacity still needs tweaking. After 5-6 hours when my Colorado says the batteries are dead and will no longer power up, I can stick those same batteries in an eTrex and it will power up showing about 75% full capacity and work just fine.

 

I know that the Colorado is more power hungry, but to say these batteries are dead at that level just means the battery meter is broken period and needs further investigation into why this is happening. I talked to Garmin this morning and all they said was use better batteries and stop using alkalines and go to niMh rechargeable's. They know there is an issue and are looking into it.

I've had all the same problems and when I called Garmin they told me to stop using Lithium and start using Alkalines. Sounds like the "shotgun" approach to me.

So far I've not enjoyed the Colorado at all. I alway take my 60Csx to get the job done.

DrPerp

Edited by drperp
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I really don't see the purpose behind thread after thread and post after post of Colorado bashing.

 

YOU EITHER HAVE A DEFECTIVE UNIT WHICH NEEDS TO BE RETURNED,

 

fail to understand some basic things about a complex GPS unit and its performance,

 

OR there are other issues like not having the latest firmware, defective batteries, contacts, etc., or are flying off emotionally due to what I believe is a poor purchase on your part.

 

I think a lot of geocachers simply can't afford a $600 GPS unit and when it burps or farts they are claiming projectile vomiting or bloody diarrhea.

 

I wish you guys would stop with the drama and take back your units and then take your old GPSmap 60 units out for an evening of dining, dancing, and a romantic, riverside hotel that you've been wanting to whisk her off to. <smooch!>

Edited by LifeOnEdge!
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I wish you guys would stop with the drama and take back your units and then take your old GPSmap 60 units out for an evening of dining, dancing, and a romantic, riverside hotel that you've been wanting to whisk her off to. <smooch!>

 

Amen!!!

 

The problem with online forums is that it ATTRACTS people that LOVE to complain. Ignore them. They like the attention....

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I wish you guys would stop with the drama and take back your units and then take your old GPSmap 60 units out for an evening of dining, dancing, and a romantic, riverside hotel that you've been wanting to whisk her off to. <smooch!>

 

Amen!!!

 

The problem with online forums is that it ATTRACTS people that LOVE to complain. Ignore them. They like the attention....

What they said!

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For those of you who call holding Garmin accountable for their product "bashing" could you point me in the right direction to get any information from Garmin besides"we'll report that to the engineers" "No we don't know when the next firmware update is" and "We have never seen one do that before". And please spare me the response that they are a company and are not going to talk about shortcomings of their product. Garmin like any other company is responsible to its customers. REI's return policy, and others I am sure, are the only thing making this tolerable in being able to return the Colorados when they crap out. My wife and I use the Colorado every day and see the problems every day. I think all of us using the Colorado have the right to vent our frustration with how they work and what needs to be fixed. After all, we appear to be the true beta testers for geocaching funcionality of the Colorado. I like many of the features of the Colorado, but is it the end all GPS for geocaching? No, this is the first model to act as a stand alone. There will be many more that are even better. And yes, returning our two Colorados for 60csx models is something we are thinking about. We are trying to give Garmin the chance to fix the problems that most of us who own them are reporting. After three months that is getting somewhat tiresome. IMHO, waiting for the next update :)

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I really don't see the purpose behind thread after thread and post after post of Colorado bashing.

 

YOU EITHER HAVE A DEFECTIVE UNIT WHICH NEEDS TO BE RETURNED,

 

fail to understand some basic things about a complex GPS unit and its performance,

 

OR there are other issues like not having the latest firmware, defective batteries, contacts, etc., or are flying off emotionally due to what I believe is a poor purchase on your part.

 

I think a lot of geocachers simply can't afford a $600 GPS unit and when it burps or farts they are claiming projectile vomiting or bloody diarrhea.

 

I wish you guys would stop with the drama and take back your units and then take your old GPSmap 60 units out for an evening of dining, dancing, and a romantic, riverside hotel that you've been wanting to whisk her off to. <smooch!>

 

So what your saying is that either the unit is broken and should be returned, or the user does not know what they are doing, or the user is emotionally unbalanced, or the user is too poor to spend $600 in the first place, or the user should perform illegal acts on a piece of electronic equipment?

 

Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, the people posting their experiences and expectations are doing so honestly and without any ulterior motive? The OP simply reported his/her experiences and explained why the unit was being returned. The OP did not attack anyone. The OP did not insult anyone. The OP's report only expresses his/her experiences and does not attempt to sway readers one way or another.

 

Consumer reports and evaluations are valuable pieces of information and should be reported. If someone has unmet expectations, why shouldn't they express their opinion? If someone has a faulty unit, why shouldn't they advise? Would it be better if only positive feedback was provided? To what end would that serve?

 

The OP and those expressing their experiences and expectations are not the ones grandstanding. The grandstanders are the ones who relish the opportunity to throw around insults in a quite transparent, and self defeating, attempt to appear superior.

 

How in the heck do you know who can or can't afford to spend $600.00 on a GPSr? I've seen you throw this assertion, and others like it, out there half a dozen times and every time they sounds just as smug. Who put you in a position to judge when and if someone's purchase of a Colorado is a poor purchase on their part?

 

Once again, there is no requirement for a post reader to respond to every post to which he or she is in disagreement and insults and unbiased assertions have no place in these forums.

 

Then again, I'm sure you and the rest of the “A-men” gang already knew this since you seem to know everything about anything.

Edited by 3 Hawks
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I wish you guys would stop with the drama and take back your units and then take your old GPSmap 60 units out for an evening of dining, dancing, and a romantic, riverside hotel that you've been wanting to whisk her off to. <smooch!>

 

Ah, maybe that's how you do things in Texas, but up here in Michigan we prefer to spend our nights with someone that can keep us warm and has something much more "inviting" than a USB port to plug our "data cable" into. ;)

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

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