Help locating old TVA data.

[+bicknell]

Hello again old friends, it's been a while since I've posted here but we've been busy for quite a while now, so long time no see.

 

My parents found something quite interesting. Near their new house on the Tennessee River they found a benchmark washed over the bank, intact concrete post and all. It's just laying on it's side by the river. I'm going to try and help them haul it up over the bank prior to the next flood which might bury it again.

 

Based on his description, it's either RT GN 96 TVA or RT GN 76 TVA, and I believe it must be the latter. The former was (not there anymore) over 300 miles away and eight dams up river. If it managed to make it that far down river it would be quite a story.

 

The interesting thing is RT GN 76 TVA isn't in the database. RT GN 75 TVA is FE0177 and RT GN 77 TVA is FE0267. Looking at the map, I believe this mark would have likely originally been between the two where three way road and highway 69 intersect. However, it was found in the bank of the river, at least a mile away!

 

But, it looks like RT GN 76 TVA never made it in the NGS database; as I can't pull it up even with destroyed marks. The question I have is, how can I get any data on this mark? You'd think the TVA would have some record, but there's no useful info on their web site of even who to ask. I guess I could send e-mail to the NGS, but I suspect if they had something it would be in the database.

 

Once we get the post pulled up over the bank I'll take some better pictures and do a rubbing to make sure it is 76. Like I said, you can find 96, which is what my dad originally thought it was, but it is FB1866, which is past 8 dams up river. I'll do a rubbing, if it is that one we've got quite a mystery.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

Hi bicknell -

 

Good go see you here again!

 

I looked at the proximity listing for RT GN 75 TVA and found that, in that series between 64 and 85, the ones numbered 69, 70, 71, and 76 are missing.

 

It looks as if someone may have intended to include a whole series of TVA marks but some were not included. Maybe the agency that bluebooked them didn't like 69, 70, 71, and 76 or maybe those marks got bad scores in the adjustment process and didn't make it into the database. If the latter is true, the NGS might have the record on those marks. Otherwise, you'll have to call or write the TVA to find out where its postion originally was. The TVA would probably want to know the fate of their mark 76 anyway.

 

I imagine that about 0.0001%, or something like that, of all government documentation has been put on the internet. Therefore it's not surprising that any given agency does not have their benchmark data on the internet.

[+bicknell]

It looks as if someone may have intended to include a whole series of TVA marks but some were not included. Maybe the agency that bluebooked them didn't like 69, 70, 71, and 76 or maybe those marks got bad scores in the adjustment process and didn't make it into the database. If the latter is true, the NGS might have the record on those marks. Otherwise, you'll have to call or write the TVA to find out where its postion originally was. The TVA would probably want to know the fate of their mark 76 anyway.

 

Mapped out they make an entire line up the west side of the river, surveyed in 1935. Note that Pickwick Dam closest to the location started to fill in 1936, so this mark was likely set on the edge of the flood plane (which appears about right).

 

The NGS entered information on them in the late 40's early 50's. My guess is that a CGS team actually revisited them at that time, and so a bunch of marks were already gone. Note many of the missing marks would likely be near intersections if you make some best guesses, so I'm betting the roads were upgraded and took out a lot of the marks.

 

After much google searching I can find no useful contacts at the TVA for anything survey related. I have to wonder if the TVA even does any survey work directly these days, they probably contract it all out or use the army corps.

Edited March 5, 2008 by bicknell

[+bicknell]

Being a ding dong I forgot to check the USGS Topo maps before, and there it is....

 

On the topo map is "BM GN 77" where "RT GN 77" is located, and just west is "BM GN 76". I bet that's the RT GN 76 they found over at the river.

 

Here's a link: USGS Topo Map, Bath Springs

 

I wonder if the USGS has info on the mark; I requested info from them once before, had to get it faxed. I forget the exact procedure.

[+bicknell]

Whoa, scroll down to here: USGS Topo Link, Due South

 

Notice "BM GN 96", and it's almost exactly where they found it. Bingo, that's it.

 

So it's not the RT GN 96 in the NGS database, 300 miles away in knoxville.

 

Looks like I have a USGS quad to purchase for them and some info to request from the USGS.

[Z15]

Maybe you can't find anything on it because is was lost long ago and never was recovered by NGS back in 1947 when they seemed to have recovered the rest of them. Look at this list, there are others that are missing. The one you all found might have been buried since before 1947 and only recently showed up?

 

|Dist|PID...|H V|Vert_Source|Approx.|Approx..|Stab|Designation

|----|------|- -|-----------|-------|--------|----|-----------

|....|FD1040|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352422|W0875741|C...|RT GN 1

|....|FE0282|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N350303|W0881637|C...|RT GN 163

|....|FE0283|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N350308|W0881652|C...|RT GN 164

|....|FE0286|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N350417|W0881729|C...|RT GN 165

|....|FE0288|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N350440|W0881806|C...|RT GN 166

|....|FE0291|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N350556|W0881819|C...|RT GN 167

|....|FE0237|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N351317|W0881903|C...|RT GN 180

|....|FE0234|2 1|88/ADJUSTED|N351335|W0881717|C...|RT GN 182

|....|FE0278|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N350251|W0881512|C...|RT GN 194

|....|FE0279|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N350249|W0881517|C...|RT GN 195

|....|FD1042|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352335|W0875800|C...|RT GN 3

|....|FE0230|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N351617|W0881733|D...|RT GN 39

|....|FE0223|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N351649|W0881735|C...|RT GN 40

|....|FE0220|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N351715|W0881650|C...|RT GN 42

|....|FE0219|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N351721|W0881644|C...|RT GN 43

|....|FE0218|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N351753|W0881600|C...|RT GN 44

|....|FE0217|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N351758|W0881556|C...|RT GN 45

|....|FE0216|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N351821|W0881508|C...|RT GN 46

|....|FE0215|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N351912|W0881429|C...|RT GN 47

|....|FE0213|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N351913|W0881253|C...|RT GN 49

|....|FD1050|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352314|W0875943|C...|RT GN 5

|....|FE0212|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352000|W0881254|C...|RT GN 51

|....|FE0211|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352032|W0881249|C...|RT GN 52

|....|FE0208|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352205|W0881343|C...|RT GN 55

|....|FE0190|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352341|W0881121|C...|RT GN 64

|....|FE0188|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352422|W0881055|C...|RT GN 65

|....|FE0187|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352416|W0880954|C...|RT GN 66

|....|FE0186|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352416|W0880942|C...|RT GN 67

|....|FE0184|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352353|W0880900|C...|RT GN 68

|....|FE0181|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352357|W0880727|C...|RT GN 72

|....|FE0180|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352440|W0880700|C...|RT GN 73

|....|FE0179|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352528|W0880653|C...|RT GN 74

|....|FE0177|0 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352613|W0880629|C...|RT GN 75

|....|FE0267|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352621|W0880522|C...|RT GN 77

|....|FE0268|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352620|W0880417|C...|RT GN 78

|....|FE0265|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352619|W0880403|C...|RT GN 79

|....|FE0266|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352544|W0880317|C...|RT GN 80

|....|FE0263|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352534|W0880312|C...|RT GN 81

|....|FE0264|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352514|W0880230|C...|RT GN 82

|....|FE0261|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352514|W0880223|C...|RT GN 83

|....|FE0262|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352441|W0880200|C...|RT GN 84

|....|FE0259|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352428|W0880102|C...|RT GN 85

|....|FE0260|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352422|W0880056|C...|RT GN 86

|....|FE2015|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352417|W0880002|....|RT GN 87

|....|FD1052|. 1|88/ADJUSTED|N352401|W0875936|C...|RT GN 88

|....|FB1865|. u|29/ADJ UNCH|N355733|W0835323|C...|RT GN 95

|....|FB1866|. u|29/ADJ UNCH|N355722|W0835314|C...|RT GN 96

|....|FB1867|. u|29/ADJ UNCH|N355731|W0835244|C...|RT GN 97

|....|FB1868|. u|29/ADJ UNCH|N355744|W0835243|C...|RT GN 98

 

To get this list I did a search with RT GN as name

Edited March 5, 2008 by Z15

[+bicknell]

Maybe you can't find anything on it because is was lost long ago and never was recovered by NGS back in 1947 when they seemed to have recovered the rest of them. Look at this list, there are others that are missing. The one you all found might have been buried since before 1947 and only recently showed up?

 

Unfortunately the RT GN 96 in the NGS database is not the same mark as the "RT GN 96 TVA" mark my parents found.

 

I just spoke to someone at the USGS, and will get a sheet faxed over shortly. Looks like the TVA gave the USGS a bunch of benchmarks years ago. The NGS used some of them as part of their lines in the 50's and ignored the rest. There's actually an enter line including this one that doesn't appear in any of the NGS data.

 

The Topo map links show them.

 

I'll post photos in a week or two when I get them.

[+bicknell]

Mary at the USGS just faxed me over the data from the original TVA survey. They had it, it just took her a bit to find since she had to go from a USGS topo to a TVA topo to find the right TVA info, then find that in some old dusty filing cabinet. I now have a 14 page fax describing the entire line though.

 

As soon as I get over there I'll find a few and post some photos.