Damaging Property

[+BarbVA]

I was out caching with the kids today, and happened to notice on several occasions lots of damage to property that invariably appeared that it had happened from people searching out a cache. Some of the expamples included:

 

-A sprinkler head pulled out of the ground and unscrewed (it wasn't the cache, but somebody must have gone around pulling on them until they got one loose)

 

-A metal fence that was sagging where it looked like tons of people had done the same thing we did and ended up in a location on the wrong side of very long fence (I will admit, my boys went over the fence before I knew what they were doing in the same place, but it was obvious that it had happened many times and looked like by much bigger people as well, we drove around to pick them up and then made them CITO the area to try and make up for it, plus a long talk about respecting property)

 

-At a community walking trail, somebody had lifted up or removed about 5 vinyl fence post caps and one was missing completely (again, the cache wasn't in any of those spots and we tried to hit down the ones that were sitting up).

 

-An entire row of ground cover smashed flat like people had just stomped through it looking for the cache that was 15 feet to the left.

 

-A parking lot with mulitple lamp post skirts sitting sideways like someone had just gone through and lifted all of them (but it wasn't under one)

 

All of these things were in very close proximity of a cache, and when compared to surrounding areas that were outside of say a 20-30 foot radius of the placed cache, it was pretty apparent that it was confined to the cache area and it was geocachers doing the damage.

 

It gave me a new outlook and has me wondering, as much as I am enjoying this new to us activity, what can we do besides being repectful ourselves and teaching our children to respect other's property to avoid receiving a negative reputation as geocachers?

[nonaeroterraqueous]

It gave me a new outlook and has me wondering, as much as I am enjoying this new to us activity, what can we do besides being repectful ourselves and teaching our children to respect other's property to avoid receiving a negative reputation as geocachers?

 

I think what you mean to say is that we need to be more considerate. There's nothing special about a cache, that it would cause undue harm to its environment. It's the people involved that cause the harm. The cache is just some random motivator to which the actions are attributed. Had it been any other game, these same people could have found another way to be destructive.

 

There's nothing selective about this game, that it would have better or worse people playing it. All kinds of people play it. This is not a religion, and it's not based on a creed. We can do our best to persuade our fellow cachers to behave themselves in a manner that would make us all proud, but one does not need to have those values to take an interest in this game. Hence, we're stuck with whomever wants to play.

 

I recently went looking for a cache that I'm pretty sure was one of those sprinkler types, but this one was so convincing that several people mentioned that they felt like they were committing vandalism and would have walked away from it had they not had assurances from the cache owner. I walked away from it, so I'll never really know. People need to place more importance on behaving themselves than on finding a cache. When in doubt, err in favor of being considerate of others' property, even if it means not claiming a find.

[+gof1]

It is sad but true, a number of our fellow cachers are careless around things that belong to others. As a cache hunter there isn't a lot you can do other than setting a good example and encouraging others to be respectful. As a cache hider you can do your best to ensure that your caches are not a part of the problem. Don't hide caches in places or ways that are susceptible to such damage. You can't totally foolproof anything as a fool will find a way to screw it up, but do your best.

[+va griz]

I've thought the same thing when I see an electrical cover (not the skirt) missing from a lamp post, or a pile of rocks moved from the place where they used to be controling erosion. It makes me plan to be much more careful about placing caches that could be accidentally encouraging such damage.

[+Isonzo Karst]

People need to place more importance on behaving themselves than on finding a cache

 

excellent, thank you

[+Confucius' Cat]

I think it is wrong to assume that all the damage you have seen was caused by cachers.

 

But whether that is true or not, there is nothing you can do except do YOUR best to avoid damaging property and make it a "prime directive" in caches YOU place to consider first and foremost what the lowest common denominator cacher might do to get your cache.

 

Then you have to decide if the cache is worth the potential damage and have the guts to NOT place your cache or abort the hunt if you perceive of a problem.

 

Unfortunately, as much as we would all like to improve the world, we cannot have any real effect on anyone but the person we see in the mirror. Everyone else is pretty much gonna do what they please.

 

This topic always gets good... going out for popcorn.

[+Kabuthunk]

Yep, I'll agree. With some people, no matter what they do, they're not going to care in the slightest about their surroundings. No matter what it takes to accomplish their goal, they will do it. I've seen people like that in dozens of different situations and hobbies, and they simply don't care if they damage something, or how much they damage it (and on occasion, who sees them in the process), just as long as the end goal is accomplished.

 

It's people like that which make me throw up a little inside.

[+JohnnyVegas]

I was out caching with the kids today, and happened to notice on several occasions lots of damage to property that invariably appeared that it had happened from people searching out a cache. Some of the expamples included:

 

-A sprinkler head pulled out of the ground and unscrewed (it wasn't the cache, but somebody must have gone around pulling on them until they got one loose)

And people wonder why hides burried sprinkler head caches are not a good idea (when it is stuck in the ground it becomes an illegal cache)[/qoute]

 

-A metal fence that was sagging where it looked like tons of people had done the same thing we did and ended up in a location on the wrong side of very long fence (I will admit, my boys went over the fence before I knew what they were doing in the same place, but it was obvious that it had happened many times and looked like by much bigger people as well, we drove around to pick them up and then made them CITO the area to try and make up for it, plus a long talk about respecting property)[/qoute]

Well it may not have just been cachers lokoing for the cache

 

-At a community walking trail, somebody had lifted up or removed about 5 vinyl fence post caps and one was missing completely (again, the cache wasn't in any of those spots and we tried to hit down the ones that were sitting up).

Well if the cache was in one of the post-the hider could include a hint that could tip off which post to look into

 

-An entire row of ground cover smashed flat like people had just stomped through it looking for the cache that was 15 feet to the left.

This sounds like a geo trail. There is not a lot that can be done to prevent this from happening, unless the cache owner wants to relocate the cache or include a hint if there is not one included now

 

-A parking lot with mulitple lamp post skirts sitting sideways like someone had just gone through and lifted all of them (but it wasn't under one)

Multiple lamp post sitting side ways, this could have been done by a muggle that had seen a cacher lit one skirt up to look for a cache, those skirts are not that close together.

 

All of these things were in very close proximity of a cache, and when compared to surrounding areas that were outside of say a 20-30 foot radius of the placed cache, it was pretty apparent that it was confined to the cache area and it was geocachers doing the damage.

 

It gave me a new outlook and has me wondering, as much as I am enjoying this new to us activity, what can we do besides being repectful ourselves and teaching our children to respect other's property to avoid receiving a negative reputation as geocachers?

I have seen holes drilled into private property in order to hide a cache, I have seen cache containers screwed into private property, I have seen caches placed in flower beds if parks that were fenced off in order to keep people out of flower beds, I have seen lots of burried caches.

 

I would a lot of the blame on the person hidding the cache, some cachers just do not think when they hide a cache, or they just do not care.

[+Knight2000]

I think it is wrong to assume that all the damage you have seen was caused by cachers.

 

Seeing what i have seen, i dont think that is unreasonable at all. It seems very reasonable. Too many people just don't care.

 

When i started caching i thought that a cacher would have a special respect for the environment and nature and all that. Someone here on the boards corrected me. Cachers are people just like everyone else. ie. Some of them just dont care.

 

Its a shame.

[+CSpenceFLY]

I found this to be true after someone used a machette to go after a cache I have in a National Forest. I could not believe someone could be so ignorant.

[+BarbVA]

Thanks for the responses, they are all so true. So I guess in essence all we can do is be mindful of our own impact on not only the enviroment but on others property as well. We will continue when possible to undo the damage we come across but know it won't always be possible (we can put cap posts and lampskirts back in place, but can't do much about sagging fences and broken sprinklers). The thing is, my boys who are 13 & 14 often joke that when we are caching we look suspicious and they don't want to encounter a police officer. I've always told them not to worry about it, we're not doing anything wrong, but then I see this destruction and it got me thinking, what if we did have a run in with the police and they tried to blame us for existing damage simply because it was in the same area where we were searching? Hopefully we won't ever have that problem, but it got me thinking. Maybe I should survey the area first and just pass on those that I notice something that I don't want to be held responsible for. Thanks all!

[+geomann1]

I think it is wrong to assume that all the damage you have seen was caused by cachers.

 

Seeing what i have seen, i dont think that is unreasonable at all. It seems very reasonable. Too many people just don't care.

 

When i started caching i thought that a cacher would have a special respect for the environment and nature and all that. Someone here on the boards corrected me. Cachers are people just like everyone else. ie. Some of them just dont care.

 

Its a shame.

 

I have come across very obvious damage done by irresponsible cachers. Clearly everyone is responsible for their own behavior, but that does not give cache owners a free pass.

 

When one places a cache, it is important to anticipate the potential for people to do damage. Assume the worse, but hope for the best.

 

I have stated in the cache descriptions for example that the cache is not associated with irrigation/sprinkler system or anything electrical, so leave them alone. As has been discussed in other threads, it also irresponsible to place a cache that will encourage future bad behavior, such as placing a fake sprinkler head cache.

[+briansnat]

Oddly enough, I've seen very little of this kind of damage. Maybe a couple overturned stones and a few bent blades of grass here and there, but the kind of damage I see listed in this thread, never.

 

I have my suspicions why other people's experiences are so different.

[Mag Magician]

Unfortunately, there is no legislation governing stupidity.

[+gof1]

I once had a log posted to a cache that talked about the seeker "disassembling something the phone company would rather wasn't" I was horrified! Why in Gods name would you take apart phone company equipment? It forced me to change the cache, eventually archiving it as it was never quite "right" after that.

 

I have my suspicions why other people's experiences are so different.

 

I have my suspicions about your suspicions.

[+carleenp]

Oddly enough, I've seen very little of this kind of damage. Maybe a couple overturned stones and a few bent blades of grass here and there, but the kind of damage I see listed in this thread, never.

 

I have my suspicions why other people's experiences are so different.

 

My experience has generally been the same in the rural and hiking areas. I have at times seen signs of issues in some of the highly cached urban areas.

 

Perhaps that is in line with your suspicions?

[+boda]

Oddly enough, I've seen very little of this kind of damage. Maybe a couple overturned stones and a few bent blades of grass here and there, but the kind of damage I see listed in this thread, never.

 

I have my suspicions why other people's experiences are so different.

 

My experience has generally been the same in the rural and hiking areas. I have at times seen signs of issues in some of the highly cached urban areas.

 

Perhaps that is in line with your suspicions?

That's been my experience in both the urban and rural areas. A few geotrails, maybe, but no wholesale damage as described. I'm not making light of the situation, and I agree with many of the comments about the types of people who cause the damage. I just haven't seen it.

[+Confucius' Cat]

The thing is, my boys who are 13 & 14 often joke that when we are caching we look suspicious and they don't want to encounter a police officer. I've always told them not to worry about it, we're not doing anything wrong, but then I see this destruction and it got me thinking, what if we did have a run in with the police and they tried to blame us for existing damage simply because it was in the same area where we were searching? Hopefully we won't ever have that problem, but it got me thinking. Maybe I should survey the area first and just pass on those that I notice something that I don't want to be held responsible for. Thanks all!

I have often thought about that possibility myself. I heard the police called to suspicious activity on a bridge in my area. I thought there might be a new cache there. The bridge had a long history of graffiti. So the suspicious people were queried about paint, which happened to appear fresh. Turns out they were only taking pictures of the bridge.

 

I do not believe it is very far-fetched at all to be hassled and possibly even arrested for damage you did not do. Conviction is another matter though. That requires evidence or witnesses.

 

But what if someone SAW you cross the fence and lo and behold, now the fence is damaged? Could even be an "insurance job" where the property owner gets his old dilapidated fence replaced by the first unsuspecting victim that he catches crossing it.

 

But most of this is paranoia and could happen with or without geocaching. Staying home and watching TV will prevent MOST such risks.

 

In police encounters, attitude is everything. Be respectful, tell the truth, and explain the game. If asked to leave, do so immediately without argument. Nine-out-of-ten times everything will work out OK- perhaps even if you were on private property and DID do some damage.

 

Unfortunately, there is no legislation governing stupidity.

True, and furthermore no legislation ever prevented a proscribed behaviour.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

Lots of covered bridges around here have geocaches on, in or around them. Acouple of years ago one of the bridges was torched, and the police immediately sent troopers to all the surrounding bridges in case the arsonist decided one wasn't enough. THey caught and convicted someone at a nearby bridge for the arson but I wondered at the time if a cacher would be caught instead, right place at the wrong time.

[+cataclysmcow]

There was a recent string of caches in our area along a highway that traveled through a scenic and more or less pristine part of Colorado (compared to the development elsewhere). One of these caches ((GC184GC) was rated as a dif 3 at first. My first day at GZ was the day after it was published and the entire hillside was destroyed. Trees were knocked down, trails were demolished any vegetation to control erosion was poked, plucked and prodded. This is only on the first day and no one logs a DNF. Days go by with no finds and this hillside gets repeatedly raped again and again. The third time I went up there I not only found that people had completely torn apart the hillside, but that they were now using it to dump trash.

 

Many cachers in our area refuse to find this cache now due to it's effect on the environment and it's reputation.

 

It would have helped if the owner posted correct coords (they were 70ft off) or if previous cachers would have logged a DNF. Rip apart a 1/4 acre for 3 hours and don't log a DNF? come on...

[+briansnat]

Oddly enough, I've seen very little of this kind of damage. Maybe a couple overturned stones and a few bent blades of grass here and there, but the kind of damage I see listed in this thread, never.

 

I have my suspicions why other people's experiences are so different.

 

My experience has generally been the same in the rural and hiking areas. I have at times seen signs of issues in some of the highly cached urban areas.

 

Perhaps that is in line with your suspicions?

 

It is indeed. I suppose I should stop being so cryptic. It's my guess that many of these caches are of the type that are targeted by the numbers hounds. I'm not saying all numbers hounds are careless, but when someone's goal is to bag as many caches as possible in a day, he might be more inclined to take shortcuts and less apt to put things back the way they belong.