HCx inaccuracy after upgrade to 2.60/2.60

[MtnHermit]

I'm losing confidence in Garmin’s ability and /or willingness to resolve this. I'm also surprised ( see Garmin support e-mails in this forum) that they seem to be willing to sacrifice their customer base.

My gut feel tells me all the negative forum posts represent less than 1% of all Garmin's installed eTrex base. This falls under the 95/5 rule, where 5% of your customers produce 95% of all complaints.

[speede541]

I'm losing confidence in Garmin’s ability and /or willingness to resolve this. I'm also surprised ( see Garmin support e-mails in this forum) that they seem to be willing to sacrifice their customer base.

My gut feel tells me all the negative forum posts represent less than 1% of all Garmin's installed eTrex base. This falls under the 95/5 rule, where 5% of your customers produce 95% of all complaints.

 

Either that, or only 5% of Garmin's customers are using the unit in a manner that requires the slow speed & precision required to note the error in the first place.

 

I'm acutely aware of the reports of this error, having tracked these threads since the introduction of the Vista HCx. In my case, I use mine mounted to a handlebar to map trails, and I'd have to go out of my way to try to reproduce these errors (I haven't). I would bet that an overwhelming number of Vista HCx owners either don't use their units, use them casually (i.e. replaying hikes / rides / drives), or for non-precision map creation, etc -- many of whom may be totally unaware they're living with these errors.

[DonpK]

My gut feel tells me all the negative forum posts represent less than 1% of all Garmin's installed eTrex base.

 

What percentage of all Garmin's installed eTrex base even read this forum? A more relavant question might be: What percentage of the eTrex users who read and are inclined to post on this forum have reported the drift problem? The issue for Garmin is what percentage of all eTrex users have this problem, not just those who post on this forum.

 

Either that, or only 5% of Garmin's customers are using the unit in a manner that requires the slow speed & precision required to note the error in the first place.

 

The answer to this is not clear to me, perhaps readers with more experience than I have on how (and if) people actually use their GPSrs might have a better idea. Both the eTrex and Colorado models with the drift problem are not designed for higher speed automotive use, so slow speed use would seem to be a given. As for precision, I any many others have noted regular errors in the tens of meters and hundreds of feet. Would most users not notice this magnitude of error? If not, then why even buy a piece of equipment with so much high technology designed in to it?

 

Don

[mikser]

On today's walk I've seen a significant (300m/1000ft) drift, as well as smaller ones with the new unit. As usual power cycling restored the accuracy.

 

So it seems those were right who said that this is purely a software issue. Now back to the good ol' 2.30 firmware...

[+StanByk]

Hi,

 

I own a Vista Hcx which I bought about 3 months ago. It came with the 2.6 software, but I have never encountered any of the problems mentioned here even after several hours of use?

 

Robert

[FiveNines]

On today's walk I've seen a significant (300m/1000ft) drift, as well as smaller ones with the new unit. As usual power cycling restored the accuracy.

1000 ft drift? Post a screenshot of your track log. The maximum error I've ever encountered is a 150 ft difference between starting and ending locations.

[mikser]

1000 ft drift? Post a screenshot of your track log. The maximum error I've ever encountered is a 150 ft difference between starting and ending locations.

 

I don't just look at the difference between the starting and ending locations, but with a good (basically self made) map I can tell when it's starting to drift during the hike.

 

Others have posted much better screenshots, but here it is. Waypoint 002 was taken when the actual position was at the cross in the center. After marking the waypoint it drifted towards the actual position while I stood still for some minutes. Then I power cycled it and the new track segment (different color) continues from the center cross, and doesn't drift anymore in this part of the route.

 

It is interesting to note, that before the drift there was bad reception, as indicated by the jumping around in the tracklog. It has been observed earlier that bad reception triggers the drifting behavior, but drifting persists even after the reception becomes good.

 

[+julianh]

My gut feel tells me all the negative forum posts represent less than 1% of all Garmin's installed eTrex base. This falls under the 95/5 rule, where 5% of your customers produce 95% of all complaints.

Which is totally irrelevant - the product has a demonstrated, repeatable flaw, which affects a significant number of users. (As others have suggested, there may be many users who are unaware they have the problem, and good luck to them. There may be others who don't have the problem at all. However, there are many users who ARE affected, and who know they are affected, and want the issue to be resolved. Whether that is 5%, 15%, 50% or 95% - it doesn't actually matter.)

 

The issue MUST be fixed - and the strange thing is - it CAN be fixed if Garmin actually wants to try - because the problem apparently never existed until a recent software update.

 

(Luckily, it doesn't affect me at all, as I "only" have a Summit HC, which does not exhibit the problem.)

[lacdubois]

Well, I went out blueberry picking and wanted to mark the spots. We went to several places and on the way back I noted that one spot I had marked (waypoint) had "moved" about 300-500 feet. I guess I will have to go back to marking the bottom of the pail or boat, depending on what I am up to at the time.

[+vxon_kitt]

I think that the situation with the Vista HCX is reaching to an unbearable point.

 

Please, does anyone knows if the GPSMAP 60CSX shows the same accuracy problems as the Vista HCX? I'm considering the idea of replacing the HCX with a 60CSX but I wouldn't like to suffer the same problems.

 

Anyway, I would like to mail the attached picture with an explanation to people from Garmin but I only have the email of Neil Stevens. Could anyone tell me some more email addresses?

 

This is my last hiking in Madrid (Spain). Wide non-asphalted roads in a nice forest. The forest didn't bother too much my previous Vista C. I went back to the car using the same way and the GPS showed me differences of upto 415 m in the same point.

 

Regards from Spain.

 

[+roadrage64]

I think that the situation with the Vista HCX is reaching to an unbearable point.

 

Please, does anyone knows if the GPSMAP 60CSX shows the same accuracy problems as the Vista HCX? I'm considering the idea of replacing the HCX with a 60CSX but I wouldn't like to suffer the same problems.

 

Anyway, I would like to mail the attached picture with an explanation to people from Garmin but I only have the email of Neil Stevens. Could anyone tell me some more email addresses?

 

This is my last hiking in Madrid (Spain). Wide non-asphalted roads in a nice forest. The forest didn't bother too much my previous Vista C. I went back to the car using the same way and the GPS showed me differences of upto 415 m in the same point.

 

Regards from Spain.

 

 

The 60CSx definitely does not have these problems. I have a 60CSx and bought the Legend HCx to have as a second unit for backup, letting friends use it, bicycling, etc.... After the first few times Geocaching with it I have pretty much given up on it (still checking for new firmware a couple of times a week, but still nothing). On the other hand, I've had the 60csx for 2 years and it is without question the most stable and accurate GPS I've ever used by a long shot. Give it a shot, you definitely won't be dissapointed.

[gerpo]

I think that the situation with the Vista HCX is reaching to an unbearable point.

 

Please, does anyone knows if the GPSMAP 60CSX shows the same accuracy problems as the Vista HCX? I'm considering the idea of replacing the HCX with a 60CSX but I wouldn't like to suffer the same problems.

 

Anyway, I would like to mail the attached picture with an explanation to people from Garmin but I only have the email of Neil Stevens. Could anyone tell me some more email addresses?

 

This is my last hiking in Madrid (Spain). Wide non-asphalted roads in a nice forest. The forest didn't bother too much my previous Vista C. I went back to the car using the same way and the GPS showed me differences of upto 415 m in the same point.

 

Regards from Spain.

 

 

I totally agree that the situation with the Vista HCX is reaching an unbearable point.

While I possibly could live with the situation before 2.60/2.60 (which was not ideal), I now have a unit which has so big errors in position and trip computer that it is almost of no use anymore!

The tripcomputer shows 5-10% more distance that the calculated track (hiking speeds), while it seems correct when travelling at biking speeds.

The position on the display deviates sometimes more than 200 meters from the actual position, which makes it hard to follow a route in an area with lots of small trails within a small distance from each other.

Turning the unit off and on again corrects the error for only a short time, after which it starts deviating again.

Edited August 21, 2008 by gerpo

[+vxon_kitt]

Yes, it's unbearable!!

 

This nice Vista HCX enjoys travelling fast. The faster you go, the happier it is. I tried it on several flights, and it's very nice and accurate. And in the car I have never deviations nor other kind of problems. You can drive through very very narrow streets with high buildings, and you'll have no problems with it.

 

The big issue is when hiking. And this is the 50% of the use I need with the GPS.

 

Please, if anyone has any mail addresses from Garmin, could you be so nice to send me just to write them an email?

 

Mine is vxon_kitt@yahoo.es

 

Thanks again!

[gerpo]

On a German forum someone mentions the availability of the new (software or firmware)version 2.70 for the Etrex HCX !

 

Changes made from version 2.60 to 2.70: * Improve distance calculation in odometer. * Fix system freeze issue. * Fix shutdown issue when browse detail map. * Correct user grid. * Disable route calculation icon when GPS is off.

 

Who dares?

Edited August 21, 2008 by gerpo

[+RandyE111]

On a German forum someone mentions the availability of the new (software or firmware)version 2.70 for the Etrex HCX !

 

Changes made from version 2.60 to 2.70: * Improve distance calculation in odometer. * Fix system freeze issue. * Fix shutdown issue when browse detail map. * Correct user grid. * Disable route calculation icon when GPS is off.

 

Who dares?

 

You're right. It's there on Garmin's website. I downloaded and now have SW version 2.70/GPS SW version 2.60.

[gerpo]

On a German forum someone mentions the availability of the new (software or firmware)version 2.70 for the Etrex HCX !

 

Changes made from version 2.60 to 2.70: * Improve distance calculation in odometer. * Fix system freeze issue. * Fix shutdown issue when browse detail map. * Correct user grid. * Disable route calculation icon when GPS is off.

 

Who dares?

 

You're right. It's there on Garmin's website. I downloaded and now have SW version 2.70/GPS SW version 2.60.

 

I am VERY curious for the first impressions!

[+MacFlash]

On a German forum someone mentions the availability of the new (software or firmware)version 2.70 for the Etrex HCX !

 

Changes made from version 2.60 to 2.70: * Improve distance calculation in odometer. * Fix system freeze issue. * Fix shutdown issue when browse detail map. * Correct user grid. * Disable route calculation icon when GPS is off.

 

Who dares?

 

You're right. It's there on Garmin's website. I downloaded and now have SW version 2.70/GPS SW version 2.60.

 

I am VERY curious for the first impressions!

I have uploaded, but since it does not update the chip firmware, I have my doubts concerning fixing the accuracy problem. We shall see.

[freeday]

just heard that the vista hcx will get a firmware update within the next days

here we go:

 

Change History

 

Changes made from version 2.60 to 2.70:

 

* Improve distance calculation in odometer.

* Fix system freeze issue.

* Fix shutdown issue when browse detail map.

* Correct user grid.

* Disable route calculation icon when GPS is off.

 

http://www.garmin.com/software/eTrexVistaHCx_270.exe

[gps512]

just heard that the vista hcx will get a firmware update within the next days

here we go:

 

Change History

 

Changes made from version 2.60 to 2.70:

 

* Improve distance calculation in odometer.

* Fix system freeze issue.

* Fix shutdown issue when browse detail map.

* Correct user grid.

* Disable route calculation icon when GPS is off.

 

http://www.garmin.com/software/eTrexVistaHCx_270.exe

 

Nothing about accuracy / drift issues resolved in 2.70????

[lacdubois]

I just did the upgrade and now the unit (HCX) will not turn on unless connected to the computer!?? Any ideas?

[ryleyinstl]

Install 2.6 again: http://www.gpsinformation.org/perry/etrex/...istaHCx_260.exe

[freeday]

did you already plug off usb and remove batteries?

[+Tarot]

I just did the upgrade and now the unit (HCX) will not turn on unless connected to the computer!?? Any ideas?

 

While connected to USB power :

 

Main Menu

Setup

System

External Power Loss (Stay On)

 

Hope this helps

 

Regards Tarot

[lacdubois]

did you already plug off usb and remove batteries?

I tried removing one of the batteries and that did not work. I took both out and that DID work. Thanks! Now to try it in the field.

[+MacFlash]

did you already plug off usb and remove batteries?

I tried removing one of the batteries and that did not work. I took both out and that DID work. Thanks! Now to try it in the field.

 

That is a real mystery, since the batteries are in series, and the unit cannot tell the difference between 1 and 0 inserted.

[lacdubois]

did you already plug off usb and remove batteries?

I tried removing one of the batteries and that did not work. I took both out and that DID work. Thanks! Now to try it in the field.

 

That is a real mystery, since the batteries are in series, and the unit cannot tell the difference between 1 and 0 inserted.

Okay, Okay...Actually, I put different ones in. The others were working fine though when I was upgrading. I wish Garmin techs were as quick to the mark as all of you!

[+NOV8TR]

An interesting point about changing batteries was noted here!

I have been following this thread for a while (that is why I'm still running 2.3/2.3 on my Vista HCx). Lately I've noticed that if the batteries are even 1 bar from full I get random inacuracys. Maybe I am just over sensitive to the problem, and now notice every little "hick up" or track that does not overlay. The batteries do make a difference though! I've tried power cycling and battery removal (using the same batteries), and nothing solves the problem more reliably than a fresh set of batteries. I use the backlight constantly and always leave the compas on, so my battery consumption is greater than normal, but still I would expect not to have to worry about changing batteries until I was down to the last battery power bar. However, I'm glad I have a problem I can generally predict and resolve, rather than the issues that are driving this thread in the forums!

[TNhunterKMC]

So did this "fix" the drifting issue for anyone?

[MtnHermit]

An interesting point about changing batteries was noted here!

I have been following this thread for a while (that is why I'm still running 2.3/2.3 on my Vista HCx). Lately I've noticed that if the batteries are even 1 bar from full I get random inacuracys. Maybe I am just over sensitive to the problem, and now notice every little "hick up" or track that does not overlay. The batteries do make a difference though! I've tried power cycling and battery removal (using the same batteries), and nothing solves the problem more reliably than a fresh set of batteries. I use the backlight constantly and always leave the compas on, so my battery consumption is greater than normal, but still I would expect not to have to worry about changing batteries until I was down to the last battery power bar. However, I'm glad I have a problem I can generally predict and resolve, rather than the issues that are driving this thread in the forums!

On my Venture Cx, I've noticed the same thing. Fresh/fully charged batteries DO make a difference. I'll get random track points 100's-1000's of feet off track with weak batteries, rarely have a problem with fully charged batteries. I most often use Powerex 2700's.

 

FWIW

[gerpo]

I also thought of the possible influence of less charged batteries, but could not see much difference between half and fully charged.

Rechargeable batteries hardly drop in output voltage until they are almost completely empty. Therefore I did not expect much of the test.

If it is of influence, then the performance should be much better with standard batteries , that provide 1.5volt output voltage, compared to the 1.2V of the chargeable ones.

[+NOV8TR]

In the begining (5 months ago for me) I did not see any difference until the darn thing got so low it switched itself off! But since then I have added home brewed topos and city navigator (sometimes running both at the same time!). I have noticed the refresh rate has dropped off significantly (no doubt due to heaver loads on the processor), and therefore suspect that the unit must be drawing more power than it was before. I also suspect that there may be an issue with the power meter not being reliable (repeatable?). What ever the cause,, 2 fresh duracell alkiline non rechargable AA's cure the problem for me!

Edited August 21, 2008 by 1XL-on-XR650L

[+vxon_kitt]

Yesterday I downgraded the chipset software from 2.60 to 2.30 using this link:

 

http://www.garmin.com/software/GPSChipsetT...onFile__230.rgn

 

Just for going back to odometer problems instead of drift problems.

 

Still I continued with firmware 2.60.

 

But today a new firmware version has been released (2.70), so I upgraded my receiver to 2.70, but chipset version still continues being 2.30.

 

My internet conection doesn't allow me to use webupdater to update the GPS software/firmware, due to firewall or proxys reasons, so I would like to know if it is a good idea to have the GPS with 2.70/2.30 versions or should I ask a friend to update to 2.70/2.60.

 

Anyone knows how would it be possible to update chipset software to 2.60 without using webupdater? I have been looking for a similar link to the one I used to go to 2.30 chipset, but couldn't find anything. I'm sure there has to be a similar link...

 

Regards.

[gerpo]

So, now that we have SW2.70 available with better odometer accuracy and the possibility to downgrade the firmware, what is the best combi for hiking? SW2.70 with FW2.30 ?

 

Can we get the combi of high position accuracy (from FW 2.30) with high odometer accuracy (from SW 2.70) ????????????????????????????

 

I sure would like to put my energy in hiking in stead of using it up with this Hcx struggle

Edited August 22, 2008 by gerpo

[mikser]

The batteries do make a difference though!

 

There's some analog processing performed on the incoming signal, and the battery voltage could make a difference there. But in the digital part voltage cannot make any difference: it either works or not, there's no middle ground.

[+vxon_kitt]

A little hike in Madrid (Spain), through normal streets (not too narrow, not too wide).

 

Combination: 2.70 / 2.30.

 

While I was walking, I turned on the receiver. It took 3.5 min just to catch the satellites signal and to fix its position with an error of 150 m. After 1.5 min, the position was right.

 

I went to a certain point which I could identify in aerial orthophotos, and wait till the signal was good enough (<10 m).

 

I started walking without stopping and switch off the GPS in destination, after a 6 minute walk.

 

The GPS results are these:

 

- Distance: 448 m

- Moving time: 4.33 min

- Stopped time: 1.19 min

 

The real data (as obtained with aerial orthophotos) are these:

 

- Distance: 525 m

- Moving time: 5.52 min (@ 5.37 kph)

- Stopped time: 0.00 min (I didn't stop any moment)

 

Well, if the odomoter issues have been fixed, it's unlikely that the combination 2.70 + 2.30 is the one that fixes the problems.

 

Regards from Spain.

[gerpo]

I can "downgrade" to GPS SW2.30 and again "upgrade" with Webupdater to 2.60.

 

I recall that GPS SW versions 2.40 or 2.50 were better than 2.30, and did not have the position acuuracy issues of 2.60.

 

Are these versions still available for download somewhere?

Edited August 22, 2008 by gerpo

[Kyle_freemason]

I currently have a legend hcx, it still has 2.40/2.30 on it. I want to buy another for my father for his birthday. If I buy one of the units that has 2.50/2.40 or 2.40/2.30 should I still be on on avoiding the problem of horrendous drifting? It seems to me from what I have read that the problem started with units coming out with 2.60 on them and that the units like mine made before that were just fine (I have never had a complaint ever about my units accuracy). Any ideas?

[+RaF MUC]

yes I think you should be fine with those old GPS-FW versions...I still very much rue havin done the update from 2.50 then.

Luckily thx to this forum I at least am back to 2.30 now...not the best FW I had had but def. better then 2.60.

And sadly Garmin only deemed a new device-SW necessary with 2.70

 

I currently have a legend hcx, it still has 2.40/2.30 on it. I want to buy another for my father for his birthday. If I buy one of the units that has 2.50/2.40 or 2.40/2.30 should I still be on on avoiding the problem of horrendous drifting? It seems to me from what I have read that the problem started with units coming out with 2.60 on them and that the units like mine made before that were just fine (I have never had a complaint ever about my units accuracy). Any ideas?

[+intolerable]

Just a quick post before I hop in the shower and then crash. Was out on a 22+ mile adventure today with 2.7/2.6. I was amazed that we made it through some heavy brush/tree cover, along cliff faces, in large basins filled with rocks, etc and to the top of the mountain without drift issues! A decent track log!

 

Unfortunately, on the way back (same route) I experienced the drift just before the halfway mark and eventually had to power on/off to correct it. I believe we'd been out for more than 10 hours at that point.

 

Not sure what it means, if anything, but I was blown away that I did not experience the drift all the way to the summit. I've not used my receiver for more than an hour or two while hiking without experiencing the drift for months.

[gerpo]

As the discussion now mainly focuses on SW 2.70, please post your specific SW2.70 findings on:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...p;#entry3610540

[+GeoAtti]

Yesterday I downgraded the chipset software from 2.60 to 2.30 using this link:

 

http://www.garmin.com/software/GPSChipsetT...onFile__230.rgn

 

 

Can you explain how do you downgrade? - What did you do with the *.rgn File?

 

Atti

[alazovic]

Read previous posts of thread (3rd page):

 

Hi,

 

I succeeded to downgrade my Vista HCX to GPS firmware version 2.30 (factory default) as follows:

 

1. Download the file from: http://www.garmin.com/software/GPSChipsetT...onFile__230.rgn and save it somewhere;

2. Connect your Vista/Legend HCX to the PC with the USB cable;

2. Make a shortcut of WebUpdater on the desktop and drag&drop the file you saved onto the shortcut;

3. WebUpdater will launch and it will install the GPS firmware to version 2.30. Ignore the WebUpdater proposal to update to a newer version (2.60).

4. After GPS reboot you can check you have 2.30 GPS firmware version and please patient to gain a fix as ephemerids data will be lost.

 

This solved the inaccuracy problem for me but reverted to the odometer bug.

 

Cheers

[Kyle_freemason]

This is what I did to my unit that came with 2.40/2.40 on it. I upgraded to 2.70 and downgraded to 2.30. Now I have two units with 2.70/2.30 and both work great. I have no odometer issues and they never seem to drift after having tested them both many hours now.

[gerpo]

This is what I did to my unit that came with 2.40/2.40 on it. I upgraded to 2.70 and downgraded to 2.30. Now I have two units with 2.70/2.30 and both work great. I have no odometer issues and they never seem to drift after having tested them both many hours now.

I tried this as well, but my first impression was not so good...so I upgraded to 2.70/2.60 again.

Perhaps I should give it another try?

[Kyle_freemason]

I hope it works for you Gerpo. I have continued to test my units with 2.70/2.30 and have had wonderful results. Hopefully though, sometime soon Garmin will release software that will allow for me to upgrade from 2.30 without facing new problems.

[DonpK]

I've been running 2.70/2.60 for about 10 days. As I reported here (about half way down the page), the Trip Computer was much improved and it seemed like the drift was better. Nevertheless, I have continued to see track errors up to 60ft and yesterday, in a four mile hike, there were a couple of deviations (dare I call them "drifts"?) of around 140ft.

 

So, I've downgraded to 2.70/2.30 to see what difference that makes. If Handa allows, I'll do a test run today.

 

Don

[gerpo]

I hope it works for you Gerpo. I have continued to test my units with 2.70/2.30 and have had wonderful results. Hopefully though, sometime soon Garmin will release software that will allow for me to upgrade from 2.30 without facing new problems.

 

Kyle, I am back on 2.70/2.30 I tried this set up today:

 

on my bike:

No drifting. (Etrex was in my backpocket) A very accurate track in Mapsource!

tripcomputer 52.5km and in Mapsource 52.1 km ( I think this is acceptable)

no problems with moved/ stopped time (only a couple of seconds stopped time over 1hour30min)

 

hiking:

No drifting (Etrex was in my breast pocket) A very accurate track in Mapsource!

tripcomputer 2.0km and in Mapsource also 2.0km (perfect)

moved time/ stopped time 21min40sec / 0min51 sec (this is not correct, I did not stop!)

 

So, I agree with you that this setup gives better results than 2.70/2.60 firmware.

moved time/ stopped time calculation is better in 2.70/2.60 but this is of minor importance for me.

Edited September 6, 2008 by gerpo

[Kyle_freemason]

Hi Gerpo,

 

I am glad it works for you! I have had the best results from this. I have tried 2.40/2.40, 2.60/2.40, 2.70/2.40, 2.70/2.30, 2.60/2.30 and 2.40/2.30 and out of them all the best by far was 2.70/2.30.

[gerpo]

Hi Gerpo,

 

I am glad it works for you! I have had the best results from this. I have tried 2.40/2.40, 2.60/2.40, 2.70/2.40, 2.70/2.30, 2.60/2.30 and 2.40/2.30 and out of them all the best by far was 2.70/2.30.

 

Wow, that took a lot of testing. I assume that you started with the GPS firmware 2.40?

Good that your conclusion was not that that was the best version, as I think you can not revert to 2.40 again?

[DonpK]

I've done an initial four mile walk with 2.70/2.30.

 

The odometer was right on. The stopped time for this test was worse than with 2.70-/2.60.

 

Based on this test, it's not clear to me whether the "drift" problem is any better with 2.70/2.30 than with 2.70/2.60. With 2.70/2.60 I was getting regular deviations from the actual track of +/- 30ft. and yesterday I had to deviations of 140ft. which is getting close to what I was seeing periodically with 2.60/2.60.

 

I've included an image of a portion of my test today with 2.70/2.30. The image also illustrates how I am measuring "deviation" or "drift". It is the distance between the two tracks on the same trail which are furthest apart from each other. The dotted white line is the actual trail, so the tracklog error is less than the 75ft. spread between to two outer tracks.

 

 

How do other people measure drift? The distance between the two tracks with the largest spread, or the furthest track distance from the actual trail?

 

Don