HCx inaccuracy after upgrade to 2.60/2.60

[lacdubois]

I received an email from Garmin in which he said it sounded like a software problem and suggested I send it in. Can't they just update the software online, rather than me going through the expense of sending the unit in?

[lacdubois]

I just received an email from Garmin as well, they also want me to send in the unit for repair suggesting it might be a software problem.

[lacdubois]

I just received an email from Garmin as well, they also want me to send in the unit for repair suggesting it might be a software problem.

[lacdubois]

Maybe I should fix me or my computer first! Sorry about the posts, it kept showing a time out.

[+twolpert]

Maybe I should fix me or my computer first! Sorry about the posts, it kept showing a time out.

Off topic: This happens frequently. No need to apologize. Just edit the duplicate, replacing the body with "Double post." I've never seen it not post when it times out, but I guess it's possible...

[+Cache Alchemy]

Glad I saw this topic. I was leaning to a HCx over the 60CSx, but now... Now I may wait to see what the reviews of the PN-40 are like, and what the official specs on the Oregon are, then probably move to the 60CSx anyhow.

I agree, it seems odd that a handheld unit is having problems keeping track when doing things when it is hand held and not mounted to a bike or car. I also found their response that it is the technology to fault when it worked before the firmware upgrade. That to me sounds like it isn't the fault of the technology, but the upgrade.

[EFIALTIS]

It seems that both the accuracy and the altimeter problems are fault software problems.

The accuracy is o.k with the 2.50/2.30 version no doubt about it .

The odometer problem was slightly (not totally) fixed with the 2.60/2.60 but accuracy was totally messed.

And the altimeter problem seems to happen because the HCX units don't measure pressure while off.

All the previous units like the Vista C measured even while off (at a low battery cost) and this is vital if you want to have continuous readings without calibrating all the time.

(this happens for example with my casio altimeter wrist watch)

So i don't understand why Garmin changed the altimeter algorithm

It seems that Garmin (the supposed Leader blah blah ....) really messed things up and they don't do anything about it

We are just the suckers who bought their precious little machines....

 

Well i start to miss my old Magellan Sportrack....

Edited July 10, 2008 by EFIALTIS

[freeday]

text deleted - EFIALTIS already corrected it

Edited July 10, 2008 by freeday

[EFIALTIS]

>>All the previous units like the 60csx measured even while off

60csx does it not

 

Sorry i meant the Vista C. (i will edit the post...)

[lacdubois]

Garmin said that perhaps because of the highly sensitive receiver, my slower walking in the woods is being considered a 'drift' by the unit. I guess this is why the unit shows me as stopped and does not record my path properly. Doesn't that make it rather useless for hiking?!! They want me to transfer the trail to my computer to see if it actually shows me as stopped.

[DonpK]

I don't quite understand the Garmin response.

 

I see the problem when I am retracing a path I have already walked. The track being recorded by my Vista Hcx accurately (withing a few feet) shows the route I was actually taking. Then suddenly, the Vista map display shows the track "drifting" (sometimes by several hundred feet) away from the actual track - the same track the GSPr accurately recorded just a few minutes earlier. Throughout the whole episode - for the accurate and inaccurate portion of the tracklog - satellite reception was good, with eight to ten satellites being received.

 

As you point out, such random, gross errors, limits the receiver's usefullness for hiking.

 

Don

[OttoLund]

I use the latest software for both 60CS and Vista HCx. Today I measured a position with both GPSrs for 20-30 minutes, stationary with good satellite reception. The measurements gave identical positions. I've tried this only once.

 

After a geocaching hike with the Vista HCx my son asked me why the track was on the lake when we had been walking beside it. Most likely the Vista HCx is inaccurate sometimes. However, it is not a practical navigation problem, we didn't get wet and he found two caches that day, right on, clever boy.

 

I used the Average function to measure a position when I placed geocache Tårnseileren I - Vassfjellet. I used the Vista HCx, with some 60 samples in the Average measurement. The first finder reported that his Colorado measured the cache position 12 ft off my logged position. I don't know which GPSr had the most accurate position measurement. I tend to believe the Colorado had the error because I have the Vista HCx. Anyway, he found the cache.

 

I am satisfied with the Vista HCx, but I think Garmin can make some adjustments in the software, if it's possible.

 

Nobody reports errors for the 60CSx, as far as I know. If you have a 60CSx, treasure it, feel lucky, have a party, enjoy, bake a cake. I will not sell my old 60CS, it's too good and gives me a lot of good memories when I look at it on the wall between the kitchen and my living room. But, if the Oregon 300 shows to be better than all the other models, I'll probably buy it if the price gets less than USD 350-400.

Edited July 12, 2008 by OttoLund

[+twolpert]

After a geocaching hike with the Vista HCx my son asked me why the track was on the lake when we had been walking beside it. Most likely the Vista HCx is inaccurate sometimes. However, it is not a practical navigation problem, we didn't get wet and he found two caches that day, right on, clever boy.

 

I used the Average function to measure a position when I placed geocache Tårnseileren I - Vassfjellet. I used the Vista HCx, with some 60 samples in the Average measurement. The first finder reported that his Colorado measured the cache position 12 ft off my logged position. I don't know which GPSr had the most accurate position measurement. I tend to believe the Colorado had the error because I have the Vista HCx. Anyway, he found the cache.

12 feet does not represent a significant error. This is well within the typical 15-20 foot EPE in good conditions. I would trust your averaged position a whole lot more than a single reading, regardless of the unit. (The Colorado is incapable of averaging.)

 

Your issue with water detail might represent the drift problem, or it might just be a problem with the map.

[EFIALTIS]

Today i hiked the same trail for second time in two months.

The first was with 2.60/2.60 version and today with 2.50/2.30 after the downgrade.

The trail is under heavy wood coverage for 3 hours (can't see the sky)

First time the unit started o.k with 5-6m accuracy but after a while showed 30-40m accuracy.

I had to power cycle to fix the problem and after half an hour showed again and then power cycle again etc...

Today the unit showed all the time 5-6m accuracy no problem at all.

Both times i recorded the track when uphill and tested the track when downhill.

The first time as you can imagine the track was messed and i was always 20-30m out of it.

Today is was all the time exactly at the track.

This only one example of various test i have performed with both versions.

The results point to only one thing -> 2.60 is bugged to the bones.

 

(p.s regarding the odometer of course is not corrected with 2.60 just made it slightly better -> test yourself)

 

Well if you ask me this gps doesn't worth the 300 euro i paid....Garmin owes me i think...)

[lacdubois]

Just received an email from Garmin. They said there will be updates announced this week.

[+Crid]

I wonder if that will be a Garmin firmware update or a GPS chipset firmware update.

[EFIALTIS]

Just received an email from Garmin. They said there will be updates announced this week.

 

Well let's see....

[lacdubois]

They called them "device updates". Other updates will be coming in the near future but the exact time is not known.

[+ryank25]

Is there a way to get on a mail list to know when this announcement will come out?

 

I just traded in my venture hc for a legend hcx. I'm starting to question why I did that. The thing that upsets me the most about my legend hcx is how the compass arrow does not update very quickly when looking for a cache. My venture was always updating even at walking speeds. My Legend takes about 10 to 15 seconds before it will update.

 

I do enjoy having the 1000 waypoints (My default GSAK database pulls 600 caches into my gps) and of course the memory card. This arrow situation really ticks me off.

[+mighty_mace]

The thing that upsets me the most about my legend hcx is how the compass arrow does not update very quickly when looking for a cache.

 

Yes, I noticed this coming from a regular old legend to the legend hcx....it is sort of annoying...will take some time to get used to it.

[+MacFlash]

The thing that upsets me the most about my legend hcx is how the compass arrow does not update very quickly when looking for a cache.

 

Yes, I noticed this coming from a regular old legend to the legend hcx....it is sort of annoying...will take some time to get used to it.

Buy yourself a 10 dollar magnetic compass. It works even when you are standing still and is actually more reliable than the one in the vista. I have one attached to the lanyard of my legend HCX

[+RandyE111]

Garmin has corrected the HCx date error on their Updates and Downloads page. It's now showing as Feb 4, 2008 instead of Feb 4, 2007.

[TransFXB]

still showing Feb 4, 2007 for Vista HCx

but Feb 4, 2008 for Legend HCx

Edited July 16, 2008 by TransFXB

[+RandyE111]

still showing Feb 4, 2007 for Vista HCx

but Feb 4, 2008 for Legend HCx

 

I stand corrected. Were both dates wrong or just the Vista? (Not that it matters)

[+RainerSurfer]

In Feb 07 there were no eTrex HCX. They appeared in June/July 07

[+vxon_kitt]

Amazing... If noone bought new Garmin products until the old models worked properly, I am sure these problems won't exist.

 

Hope they fix soon all the issues concerning HCX receivers.

 

Best regards from Spain!

[+_Shaddow_]

Hello, this is my first post here

 

Wow, I just got done reading all the posts and I'm relieved to learn that I'm not expecting too much or somehow an incapable GPS user; I have the same issue with my tracked paths off, yesterday by about 200ft on an out-and-back trail, and I thought either that I had somehow done something wrong with the settings or I was expecting too much for the paths to be within 10-20 feet of each other.

 

I've had my Vista HCx for about 10 months and I think I upgraded to 2.6 but maybe it came with it.

 

With the expected firmware upgrade release expected soon, do you think it would be best to wait for it or go through the trouble of downgrading? For me, the whole idea of GPS is real time accuracy... that is far more important to me then knowing exactly how far I've gone or how fast. That leads me to another question about the odometer bug, which I'm not at all clear about in the first place: does the bug only occur in the unit as your using it? It seems that when downloading the track it would have to show the correct distance since the data points are accurate.

[TransFXB]

Is there a way to get on a mail list to know when this announcement will come out?

just paste this address in your news reader (RSS) software:

http://www8.garmin.com/rss/software.jsp

[TopherAC]

The problem with the odometer is that it will show different mileage from what you would get from looking at the track data or comparing it to a known distance. I downgraded to 2.30 to resolve the accuracy issue and on my last hike the odometer showed 6 miles while the track log indicated 7.5 (I hiked the same trail with another GPS and the 7.5 miles is more reasonable). The gap between the odometer and the track log was greatly reduced with 2.60, but like you I care more about accuracy (where am I) versus how far have I gone. It just seems that I shouldn't have to sacrifice positional accuracy for odometer accuracy. In my opinion, the GPS chip in the Vista HCX is a piece of $%^# and makes the unit unreliable. The chip is so sensitive, the GPS isn't able to determine if you are moving or if it is normal drift while standing still. It appears that Garmin is using algorithms to try to differentiate between actual movement and normal "drift" (quite poorly I might add) which is why the unit typically will not register speeds below 3 MPH. That's a wonderfully engineered product for geocaching and hiking isn't it?

 

I can't wait to see what Delorme plans to do with the accelerometer in the PN-40. Logic would seem to point to that GPS being able to tell when you are actually moving versus having to come up with some flawed algorithm to factor in normal drift while standing still. I would expect that the PN-40 odometer and track log should be very consistent, but those are just my thoughts.

[+_Shaddow_]

The problem with the odometer is that it will show different mileage from what you would get from looking at the track data or comparing it to a known distance. I downgraded to 2.30 to resolve the accuracy issue and on my last hike the odometer showed 6 miles while the track log indicated 7.5 (I hiked the same trail with another GPS and the 7.5 miles is more reasonable). The gap between the odometer and the track log was greatly reduced with 2.60, but like you I care more about accuracy (where am I) versus how far have I gone. It just seems that I shouldn't have to sacrifice positional accuracy for odometer accuracy. In my opinion, the GPS chip in the Vista HCX is a piece of $%^# and makes the unit unreliable. The chip is so sensitive, the GPS isn't able to determine if you are moving or if it is normal drift while standing still. It appears that Garmin is using algorithms to try to differentiate between actual movement and normal "drift" (quite poorly I might add) which is why the unit typically will not register speeds below 3 MPH. That's a wonderfully engineered product for geocaching and hiking isn't it?

 

I can't wait to see what Delorme plans to do with the accelerometer in the PN-40. Logic would seem to point to that GPS being able to tell when you are actually moving versus having to come up with some flawed algorithm to factor in normal drift while standing still. I would expect that the PN-40 odometer and track log should be very consistent, but those are just my thoughts.

 

I'm no expert on such items but it seems it is only necessary for the GPS to sum the distances between the track points to get the distance traveled. That is something I could manually in my head, no need for sophisticated algorithms. I understand that does not give an accurate real-time velocity but at least an average speed would be almost as easy (distance/time doh!). For speed (or velocity) it could us a simple weighted average - oh wait, I guess that's an algorithm - well at least I've made my point, I think

[MtnHermit]

I can't wait to see what Delorme plans to do with the accelerometer in the PN-40. Logic would seem to point to that GPS being able to tell when you are actually moving versus having to come up with some flawed algorithm to factor in normal drift while standing still. I would expect that the PN-40 odometer and track log should be very consistent, but those are just my thoughts.

Don't get your hopes up too high. My initial test indicate theirs a problem.

 

Here's a screenshot of a hike I took yesterday, under a canopy of 30-foot tall spruce in Colorado.

 

 

I learned from this test that the odometer is off substantially. That lake is 1.7-miles from the TH, straight line. When I arrived, the odometer reported 1.3-miles, with a lot of curves in my path.

 

So why do you care? The PN-40 and the Nuvi 205W, above, use the same STM Cartesio chipset. So unless the Delorme algorithms are better than Garmin's, look for this whole issue to repeat.

 

BTW, did a side-by-side test of a Vista HCx and the Nuvi 205W in a poor signal area, the Nuvi was slightly faster at getting a lock and saw more satellites.

[TopherAC]

That's where the accelerometer comes in! If Delorme uses this to detect motion, then the unit should be able to determine motion (say...below 3MPH) without the use of algorithms. It would seem that this could close the gap between the odemter and the track log (as it appears the odometer won't accumulate mileage if the GPS doesn't think you are moving).

[freeday]

Just received an email from Garmin. They said there will be updates announced this week.

Why did you get this information?

[MtnHermit]

That's where the accelerometer comes in! If Delorme uses this to detect motion, then the unit should be able to determine motion (say...below 3MPH) without the use of algorithms. It would seem that this could close the gap between the odemter and the track log (as it appears the odometer won't accumulate mileage if the GPS doesn't think you are moving).

Is their an accelerometer on these GPS chips? If not, then the GPS makers would have to add an accelerometer chip like on the Wii controller. I find that to be unlikely added expense.

 

More likely, speed is derived from time and distance. But, as you've suggested, these high sensitivity chips carry their own baggage, especially at low speeds. My one test suggests as much.

 

Keep in mind that it's the automotive market driving these chips, not handheld. Garmin likely sells 10 automotive for each handheld. So while the handheld market benefits from sensitive, low-cost chips, their are likely compromises.

[+Tarot]

Just received an email from Garmin. They said there will be updates announced this week.

 

I have just telephoned Garmin (UK), and they are not aware of any imminent updates for the Vista HCX. I guess we will just have to wait and see !!

 

Regards Tarot

[freeday]

Just received an email from Garmin. They said there will be updates announced this week.

 

I have just telephoned Garmin (UK), and they are not aware of any imminent updates for the Vista HCX. I guess we will just have to wait and see !!

 

Regards Tarot

Did Garmin know about the problem and is Garmin planning to solve this bug?

[lacdubois]

Just received an email from Garmin. They said there will be updates announced this week.

 

I have just telephoned Garmin (UK), and they are not aware of any imminent updates for the Vista HCX. I guess we will just have to wait and see !!

 

Regards Tarot

Did Garmin know about the problem and is Garmin planning to solve this bug?

I have been in email conversation with Garmin for the last few weeks regarding my problems with the HCx. These problems include not recording the track properly when I am moving too slowly and odometer problems. The last email was the one where they indicated that a 'device' fix was on the way this week but he did not know if it would resolve my problems. The updates were "in the future, but not known when". BLa...bla...bla... Who knows? I am hoping

[roybassist]

Is their an accelerometer on these GPS chips? If not, then the GPS makers would have to add an accelerometer chip like on the Wii controller. I find that to be unlikely added expense.

Well it is one of the announced features:

* NEW! 3-axis electronic compass with included accelerometer performs when held in any position—while in motion or standing still

But since they mention it in connection with the compass, it could be that it is only for the purpose of improving the compass operation. Time will tell.

[Kyle_freemason]

Hi Guys,

 

Here is a basic question...so please bear with me...where on my gps can I find the chipset version? I bought my legend hcx about a month ago and would like to know which version they sent it out with. Also, I think I will wait to upgrade to 2.60 as it seems there are many problems regarding it.

 

Thanks!

 

Kyle

[ryleyinstl]

Main Menu - Setup - System Setup

Then click the find/menu key and select SW Ver.

[Kyle_freemason]

Thank you for answering my very basic question...I really appreciate it! I have 2.40/2.30. So far I have had no trouble with it. After reading what trouble everyone has had, I worry about upgrading to 2.60. Hopefully, Garmin fixes the problems relating to 2.60.

 

Kyle

Edited July 17, 2008 by Kyle_freemason

[freeday]

Thank you for answering my very basic question...I really appreciate it! I have 2.40/2.30. So far I have had no trouble with it. After reading what trouble everyone has had, I worry about upgrading to 2.60. Hopefully, Garmin fixes the problems relating to 2.60.

 

Kyle

you will have not this bug, but you will have a different bug - that is the reason why people are upgrading.

[Kyle_freemason]

Hi Freeday,

 

I would upgrade to 2.60 so long as the accuracy was not affected. I guess we will have to wait and see how Garmin handles this.

 

Kyle

[+vierhalbe]

I friend of mine just received his brand new Vista HCx - and it shows version 2.70 (for both, software and GPS). So far he didn't experience the inaccuracy problem - so there is hope!

 

Unfortunately that version is not yet available for download, but maybe Garmin wants to give it a slow start to avoid a similar disaster as with 2.60...

 

My own unit notoriously and persistently kicks me off the track after extended caching walks. First I believed it was related to WAAS/EGNOS, but switching that feature off didn't help.

 

The worst experience I had was the position being off about 200 meters after a walk through a woody valley in the shadow of a steep hill.

 

I think it's acceptable that position isn't that accurate under such conditions. What really makes it bad is that the unit doesn't recover from this situation, even if left alone under perfect reception conditions for a while...

 

I developed the habit to power cycle the unit multiple times when approaching a cache location, just in case...

Edited July 21, 2008 by vierhalbe

[TopherAC]

That makes no sense to me. Garmin is willing to put a more up-to-date software version on the new units before it is released to the masses? If it's not good enough for us or it hasn't been tested, it has no business being loaded at the factory on new units. Wouldn't it make more sense to release the update as a beta so that more people would be able to test it? Sounds to me like Garmin has lost it's confidence in its ability to deliver a bug free product.

 

If it is true that there is a version 2.70 on the way, I can't wait to read the list of improvements to see if Garmin will own up to the serious "drifting" flaw. I would expect to see something like "Improved upon already outstanding positional accuracy" while in reality it should read something like "After a short five month period we decided to spend some engineering resources on an existing product in an attempt to satisfy a select groups desire to have their GPS unit actually indicate their actual location within +/- 200 meters"

 

Based upon the reviews I have read about the Oregon, I think Garmin is going to have a rocky road ahead of them. You guessed it, the issue of accuracy has been raised again with what is thought to be a different chip from a different manufacturer. I read a review that mentioned the odometer on the Oregon was off by as much as 15% and that the unit was recording more stopped time than actual. This sounds all too familiar (Vista HCX version 2.30)....shouldn't Garmin have learned from their past failures? Do they not test products anymore? There are many of us that would be more than willing to test their products for free!

 

Garmin....get your act together....this is embarrassing!

[dualcore]

As of today, Etrex Vista C's latest version is v2.70

 

Are you sure your friend's one is Vista HCX?

[AlunS]

As of today, Etrex Vista C's latest version is v2.70

 

Are you sure your friend's one is Vista HCX?

I don't think you can even buy a "brand new" Vista C any more though, can you?

[fujitsu]

Hi there!

 

Does anyone try to make an update with the Webupdater?

 

I don't have the USB cable in the office.

 

regards

[+MacFlash]

Hi there!

 

Does anyone try to make an update with the Webupdater?

 

I don't have the USB cable in the office.

 

regards

Just did- no updates found for Legend HCx

[+kaseym]

I have an etrex legend hcx and I can find the software version (system, setup, menu, software version) but cannot find the gps software version. I shoulld know this but can't find after searching. Thanks for the help.