FTF deleted--Not found during park hours!

[+Rockin Roddy]

Or a stray dog owner trying to find said animal!

 

Officer, that's my story and I'm sticking to it (said as I'm trying desperately trying trying to hide my GPSr).

 

Rod- walk away from the keyboard, get in your vehicle, and go to the Winter Social. I'll see you there.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

 

P.S. And who was it that asked who Rod is?

Was waiting on Tod, we're out the door now!! See you there Deane!!

 

I like V&S's comment below...why can't I form my comments as he?

[+Marky]

This is another good reason to never brag about breaking the law in your cache logs.

[+Rockin Roddy]

This is another good reason to never brag about breaking the law in your cache logs.

 

It would be best if no laws were broken while caching...but if you do, try to be smart enough not to state your ignorance in the logs!! (you and your used generically here)!

[+Glenn]

I have a cache with posted hours and anyone was stupid enough to log that they where in the park outside of the posted hours then I have no problem with deleting their log. If I don't delete log then other people will see it and wrongly assume that it is okay to go in the park after hours if they are geocaching. I didn't get permission for them to be there after hours so what do you think the land manager is going to think when he sees the log? He might go as far as to ask for the removal of the cache from the park and any other caches from land that he manages.

 

Now tell me who is being rude and selfish? The idiot who is more than willing to get geocaching banned in the area just because he wants to be the first to find or the cache owner?

[+tozainamboku]

If I don't delete log then other people will see it and wrongly assume that it is okay to go in the park after hours if they are geocaching.

 

Thanks for another reason for deleting the FTF log. I was stuck with the options of

1. removing the evidence - if this were a more serious crime than being in the park after dark it would be called obstruction of justice.
   
2. punishing the violator - the cache owner has appointed himself deputy park police and can punish a finder for breaking park rules. Perhaps the owner thinks that this will convince the park manager that geocaching has a way to police itself.
   

So we now have a reason of preventing copycat violations. "The FTF was in the park after dark so I guess its OK for me." I suppose that the people who are going to ignore the posted rules at a park, are probably going to check the cache logs to see if anyone else has gotten away with it. It kinda reminds me of the locationless cache that in order to log you needed to post a picture of the speeding ticket you got while geocaching.

[Clan Riffster]

Here's an odd twist to the topic, for y'all to ponder:

What of the cacher who appears to violate the park rules, but claims otherwise in their log?

For instance, a local cacher hid a series of micros which led to a regular. This was in a state park, with clearly posted rules declaring that the area is closed at sunset. I scored FTF's on all 7 of these by going in the park at about 2:00am. Something that is not posted anywhere in the park is the fact that you can obtain a camping permit which allows you entry after hours. I had one of these permits when I scored my finds. I could easily have lied about having the permit, which would mean I was violating the park rules. In this instance, the cache page doesn't mention not going in after hours, but what if it did? Would that make my finds less legitimate? I was in the park legally, and the park management, (who issued me the permit), knew I was legal, so these logs wouldn't appear to them to be a cacher breaking the rules.

 

If the cache page mentioned the park hours, should my logs be deleted?

 

Just curious.

[+Too Tall John]

Here's an odd twist to the topic, for y'all to ponder:

What of the cacher who appears to violate the park rules, but claims otherwise in their log?

For instance, a local cacher hid a series of micros which led to a regular. This was in a state park, with clearly posted rules declaring that the area is closed at sunset. I scored FTF's on all 7 of these by going in the park at about 2:00am. Something that is not posted anywhere in the park is the fact that you can obtain a camping permit which allows you entry after hours. I had one of these permits when I scored my finds. I could easily have lied about having the permit, which would mean I was violating the park rules. In this instance, the cache page doesn't mention not going in after hours, but what if it did? Would that make my finds less legitimate? I was in the park legally, and the park management, (who issued me the permit), knew I was legal, so these logs wouldn't appear to them to be a cacher breaking the rules.

 

If the cache page mentioned the park hours, should my logs be deleted?

 

Just curious.

If I were the cache owner, I'd probably be concerned with your logs and contact you about it. Once I found your methods, I'd congratulate you, and ask that you mention in the logs the circumstances.

 

Kinda for the same reason they frown on buried caches, even with permission. If someone doesn't realize you specifically have permission, they will go out and try it themselves.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Here's an odd twist to the topic, for y'all to ponder:

What of the cacher who appears to violate the park rules, but claims otherwise in their log?

For instance, a local cacher hid a series of micros which led to a regular. This was in a state park, with clearly posted rules declaring that the area is closed at sunset. I scored FTF's on all 7 of these by going in the park at about 2:00am. Something that is not posted anywhere in the park is the fact that you can obtain a camping permit which allows you entry after hours. I had one of these permits when I scored my finds. I could easily have lied about having the permit, which would mean I was violating the park rules. In this instance, the cache page doesn't mention not going in after hours, but what if it did? Would that make my finds less legitimate? I was in the park legally, and the park management, (who issued me the permit), knew I was legal, so these logs wouldn't appear to them to be a cacher breaking the rules.

 

If the cache page mentioned the park hours, should my logs be deleted?

 

Just curious.

If I were the cache owner, I'd probably be concerned with your logs and contact you about it. Once I found your methods, I'd congratulate you, and ask that you mention in the logs the circumstances.

 

Kinda for the same reason they frown on buried caches, even with permission. If someone doesn't realize you specifically have permission, they will go out and try it themselves.

 

Yep...exactly.

 

People do watch the logs, so asking that you note your permission in the logs really would be helpful just as I'm helping by posting the hours. Now, if the CO states NO after hours caching, they are in charge and can do as they feel right...but in this case, good to go (for me at least)!

[+Adventure_Unlimited]

Well, personally, the words 'stay on the trail' just annoy me, as do park hours. Not that any parks around here have hours, really. But, as some people have said earlier, park hours are more like guidelines, anyway. They're only there so the local bi-law enforcement can kick out loitering druggies.

 

It's a debate between "rules as written" and "rules as intended." Following everything to the letter might make you a responsible citizen, but you're not going to have any adventure, either.

[+Driver Carries Cache]

Following everything to the letter might make you a responsible citizen, but you're not going to have any adventure, either.

 

Should we read that statement as "it's cool to break the law"? What you're trying to tell us is that there's no adventure to be had unless you're breaking the law?

 

If that's the case, I feel sorry for you.

 

Nice example... the living embodiment of my sig line.

 

DCC

Edited February 25, 2008 by Driver Carries Cache

[+Rockin Roddy]

Well, personally, the words 'stay on the trail' just annoy me, as do park hours. Not that any parks around here have hours, really. But, as some people have said earlier, park hours are more like guidelines, anyway. They're only there so the local bi-law enforcement can kick out loitering druggies.

 

It's a debate between "rules as written" and "rules as intended." Following everything to the letter might make you a responsible citizen, but you're not going to have any adventure, either.

 

Are you trolling or just a newb who doesn't know better?? Your first post...hmmmmm

 

It's this attitude which is the problem right here...this attitude ANNOYS ME! If you need adventure, try some 5/5 caches...but OBEY the rules of the trail and the hours. Sheesh, people like this are THE PROBLEM! How about you NOT ruin other peoples' fun while out seeking your "adventure"

 

Also, you have no idea what the laws are in place for, so don't pretend you do. I WILL delete your "adventure" should you come out my way breaking the laws (read those as LAWS...not suggestions...sheesh!)!

[+TotemLake]

Ugh. I thought this topic was put to rest already. Laws and guidelines aside; the cache owner has the right to enforce the rules of his cache. They posted the hours as part of the rules and deleted the log for violation of those rules of the cache. Where's the problem?

[+ReadyOrNot]

Ugh. I thought this topic was put to rest already. Laws and guidelines aside; the cache owner has the right to enforce the rules of his cache. They posted the hours as part of the rules and deleted the log for violation of those rules of the cache. Where's the problem?

 

I thought this was a debate as to whether the FTF should stand. Not sure if that was ever agreed upon or not. We should put aside the debate about park hours and criminal trespassing and debate the intended topic, which was:

 

FTF Deleted, not found during park hours.

 

The owner had the right, 110% to delete the log in question. But did the owner have the right to disqualify the FTF or should the FTF stand?

[+Rockin Roddy]

Ugh. I thought this topic was put to rest already. Laws and guidelines aside; the cache owner has the right to enforce the rules of his cache. They posted the hours as part of the rules and deleted the log for violation of those rules of the cache. Where's the problem?

 

I thought this was a debate as to whether the FTF should stand. Not sure if that was ever agreed upon or not. We should put aside the debate about park hours and criminal trespassing and debate the intended topic, which was:

 

FTF Deleted, not found during park hours.

 

The owner had the right, 110% to delete the log in question. But did the owner have the right to disqualify the FTF or should the FTF stand?

I thought this was covered as well...could be mistaken though.

[+Too Tall John]

The owner had the right, 110% to delete the log in question. But did the owner have the right to disqualify the FTF or should the FTF stand?

I think until the guidelines define FTF (which I suspect they never will), the definition of FTF of a cache rests entirely in the hands of the individual cache owner. There has even been a cache posted here where the cache owner wants all finders to claim FTF.

[+tozainamboku]

The owner had the right, 110% to delete the log in question. But did the owner have the right to disqualify the FTF or should the FTF stand?

I think until the guidelines define FTF (which I suspect they never will), the definition of FTF of a cache rests entirely in the hands of the individual cache owner. There has even been a cache posted here where the cache owner wants all finders to claim FTF.

Sure just like the virtual caches where the owner wants you to claim a find if you find the answers on the internet

[+ShadowAce]

According to the guidelines of Groundspeak:

 

By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location. However, if we see a cache description that mentions ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing may be immediately archived. We also assume that your cache placement complies with all applicable laws. If an obvious legal issue is present, or is brought to our attention, your listing may be immediately archived.

 

I would say yes. Cache owners are cache police in the respect of they obviously received permission to place a cache at the location and in making such arrangements they likely made good on there word that they would help look after the location and make sure people are not damaging it. As such then rewarding those who break the law/rules, no matter how much you may disagree with the rule, is a violation of trust on the part of the land manager and the geocachers.

Edited February 26, 2008 by ShadowAce

[+Glenn]

If I don't delete log then other people will see it and wrongly assume that it is okay to go in the park after hours if they are geocaching.

 

Thanks for another reason for deleting the FTF log. I was stuck with the options of

1. removing the evidence - if this were a more serious crime than being in the park after dark it would be called obstruction of justice.
   
2. punishing the violator - the cache owner has appointed himself deputy park police and can punish a finder for breaking park rules. Perhaps the owner thinks that this will convince the park manager that geocaching has a way to police itself.
   

So we now have a reason of preventing copycat violations. "The FTF was in the park after dark so I guess its OK for me." I suppose that the people who are going to ignore the posted rules at a park, are probably going to check the cache logs to see if anyone else has gotten away with it. It kinda reminds me of the locationless cache that in order to log you needed to post a picture of the speeding ticket you got while geocaching.

 

Removing evidence is a non-issue because the log still exists. From what I understand deleted logs aren't really deleted they are just removed from public view.

 

Punishment is a non-issues because as ShadowAce pointed out "However, if we see a cache description that mentions ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing may be immediately archived.". A cache owner is expected to properly maintain his caches.

[+Too Tall John]

The owner had the right, 110% to delete the log in question. But did the owner have the right to disqualify the FTF or should the FTF stand?

I think until the guidelines define FTF (which I suspect they never will), the definition of FTF of a cache rests entirely in the hands of the individual cache owner. There has even been a cache posted here where the cache owner wants all finders to claim FTF.

Sure just like the virtual caches where the owner wants you to claim a find if you find the answers on the internet

Good point.

 

The difference between the two is that the guidelines specifically address one, while specifically not addressing the other.

 

[+tozainamboku]

Punishment is a non-issues because as ShadowAce pointed out "However, if we see a cache description that mentions ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing may be immediately archived.". A cache owner is expected to properly maintain his caches.

ShadowAce's comment does make it sound like punishment is the issue or at least denying the reward

As such then rewarding those who break the law/rules, no matter how much you may disagree with the rule, is a violation of trust on the part of the land manager and the geocachers.

This assumes that allowing the FTF log to stand is reward and deleting it must be a punishment. I don't see the relevance of the section from the guidelines re: "No Trespassing" signs. This section basically allows reviewers and Grounspeak to archive caches first and ask questions later. I've had some friend that have had caches archived and they have to jump through hoops to prove that their cache does have permission or that the cache can be retrieved legally, in order get their cache unarchived. Unlike No Trespassing, a cache in a park that is only open certain hours may be presumed to be placed legally. If a finder chooses to break the laws it isn't the cache or the cache owners fault. Certainly a park managers may see the violation as being caused by the cache and ask that it be removed. I'm not sure that the owner deleting the log as a way to punish the violator will convince a park manager that geocaching can police issues like this. If I were a park manager, I'd ask exactly how deleting the log punishes the finder who violated the rules; just how much is one of these smiley faces worth? Seems to me that once whats done is done your only hope is that you can convince the park management that such a blatant disregard of park rules is rare and that once the cache has been initially found isn't as likely to occur. I can sort of understand deleting the log in order to remove a reason for a copycat to decide its OK to ignore the park rules - if one cacher did it, it must be OK.

[+thedeadpirate]

If I were a park manager, I'd ask exactly how deleting the log punishes the finder who violated the rules; just how much is one of these smiley faces worth?

 

Judging by how upset some people get when a smiley is deleted (even when it's not even their smiley), I'd say smiley faces were worth quite a bit.

[+BurbankKarl]

There obviously needs to be a 2TF designation added after this cache!