FTF deleted--Not found during park hours!

[+infiniteMPG]

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

Nope, but it is the cache owner's business and responsibility to protect the security of their cache. If they didn't discourage people from breaking park/county regulations that would put their cache, and caching in that area in general, at risk.

 

What if some of the people visiting your caches caused some kind of disturbance, or littered, or stuff like that and posted it in their logs and the property manager had told you if that happened you'd have to remove all your hides, how would you feel? Would you delete their logs, or just turn your head and say it's not your place to enforce the property manager's rules and prepare to remove all your hides because of what they did?

[+Rockin Roddy]

I don't want to just who's right or wrong, but where do we draw the line at enforcing the laws? What if someone mentions he ran a red light to get to a cache or made an illegal U-Turn? What if someone said he did a cache after happy hour (he might be tipsy in public) The cache should mention there are consequences for finding the cache after hours.

 

If the cache owner actually takes the time to make mention of the park's hours of operation, then common sense would say there are possible repercussions for not adhering to those hours.

 

Actually, just the fact that the park has posted hours of operation should be enough without it needing to be explicitly posted on the cache listing.

 

The real problem is common sense isn't as common as it should be.

 

I've cached after hours quite often. Some parks I do, some I don't, depending on the situation. I've NEVER had a problem. Does this mean I'm using my common sense? I guess so. I look at the hours as guidelines, not necessarily rules. Did you know you can get a ticket for going the speed limit? If everyone else around you is going 65 and you are hindering traffic by going 55, you can get a ticket....

 

Interesting...

I believe the minimum on any highway is 40, but I could be mistaken.

 

Guidelines seldom start with P.A. and a bunch of numbers. Guidelines seldom have punishments of fines and possible jail terms.

 

None of this even matters. What DOES matter is how your actions can be perceived by the landowner and other landowners. A few examples have already been given (I believe) of how not obeying simple laws or even rules has resulted in loss of caching privilege. Why some would risk their sport because they are too competitive to obey hours of operation is far beyond me.

[+thedeadpirate]

I dont want to just who's right or wrong, but where do we draw the line at enforcing the laws? What if someone mentions he ran a red light to get to a cache or made an illegal U-Turn? What if someone said he did a cache after happy hour (he might be tipsy in public) The cache should mention there are consequences for finding the cache after hours.

 

If the cache owner actually takes the time to make mention of the park's hours of operation, then common sense would say there are possible repercussions for not adhering to those hours.

 

Actually, just the fact that the park has posted hours of operation should be enough without it needing to be explicitly posted on the cache listing.

 

The real problem is common sense isn't as common as it should be.

 

I've cached after hours quite often. Some parks I do, some I don't, depending on the situation. I've NEVER had a problem. Does this mean I'm using my common sense? I guess so. I look at the hours as guidelines, not necessarily rules. Did you know you can get a ticket for going the speed limit? If everyone else around you is going 65 and you are hindering traffic by going 55, you can get a ticket....

 

Interesting...

 

Incorrect.

 

If the speed limit is 70 and you are doing 45, then yes, you can be ticketed as you may possibly be causing an unsafe condition. But if you are doing 55 in a 55 mph zone, you cannot be ticketed.

 

Like I said, the real problem is common sense is not as common as it should be.

[+ReadyOrNot]

I dont want to just who's right or wrong, but where do we draw the line at enforcing the laws? What if someone mentions he ran a red light to get to a cache or made an illegal U-Turn? What if someone said he did a cache after happy hour (he might be tipsy in public) The cache should mention there are consequences for finding the cache after hours.

 

If the cache owner actually takes the time to make mention of the park's hours of operation, then common sense would say there are possible repercussions for not adhering to those hours.

 

Actually, just the fact that the park has posted hours of operation should be enough without it needing to be explicitly posted on the cache listing.

 

The real problem is common sense isn't as common as it should be.

 

I've cached after hours quite often. Some parks I do, some I don't, depending on the situation. I've NEVER had a problem. Does this mean I'm using my common sense? I guess so. I look at the hours as guidelines, not necessarily rules. Did you know you can get a ticket for going the speed limit? If everyone else around you is going 65 and you are hindering traffic by going 55, you can get a ticket....

 

Interesting...

 

Incorrect.

 

If the speed limit is 70 and you are doing 45, then yes, you can be ticketed as you may possibly be causing an unsafe condition. But if you are doing 55 in a 55 mph zone, you cannot be ticketed.

 

Like I said, the real problem is common sense is not as common as it should be.

 

That's incorrect.

 

If you are hindering traffic and the normal flow, you can be ticketed, regardless of your speed.

[+CYBret]

There will NEVER be another FTF on that cache...even if they deleted the log.

You are talking First to Actually Find Regardless as opposed to First to Legitimatly Find.

 

First After Rejected Troublemaker?

 

[+Rockin Roddy]

I dont want to just who's right or wrong, but where do we draw the line at enforcing the laws? What if someone mentions he ran a red light to get to a cache or made an illegal U-Turn? What if someone said he did a cache after happy hour (he might be tipsy in public) The cache should mention there are consequences for finding the cache after hours.

 

If the cache owner actually takes the time to make mention of the park's hours of operation, then common sense would say there are possible repercussions for not adhering to those hours.

 

Actually, just the fact that the park has posted hours of operation should be enough without it needing to be explicitly posted on the cache listing.

 

The real problem is common sense isn't as common as it should be.

 

I've cached after hours quite often. Some parks I do, some I don't, depending on the situation. I've NEVER had a problem. Does this mean I'm using my common sense? I guess so. I look at the hours as guidelines, not necessarily rules. Did you know you can get a ticket for going the speed limit? If everyone else around you is going 65 and you are hindering traffic by going 55, you can get a ticket....

 

Interesting...

 

Incorrect.

 

If the speed limit is 70 and you are doing 45, then yes, you can be ticketed as you may possibly be causing an unsafe condition. But if you are doing 55 in a 55 mph zone, you cannot be ticketed.

 

Like I said, the real problem is common sense is not as common as it should be.

 

That's incorrect.

 

If you are hindering traffic and the normal flow, you can be ticketed, regardless of your speed.

This certainly MUST be a local law and is silly IMHO. As I read this, you are saying that if everyone else is going 70 in a 55, you had better be speeding too?

 

ANYWAY...back to our regular programming...

[+thedeadpirate]

Let's assume that you have read the penal code, as I have not and it says "if you are hindering traffic and the normal flow, you can be ticketed, regardless of your speed". Regardless of the specifics of the code, common sense says do not be driving so fast or so slow as to cause dangerous conditions for other drivers.

 

Common sense also says if a park has posted hours, then enjoy the park during those hours and be respectful of the park's wishes by NOT being there at other hours.

 

Common sense says if a cacher owner posts the park's hours that you may have your smiley removed if you post a log saying you violated the park's wishes by geocaching after dusk.

 

I think someone else mentioned earlier that one possible reason for the owner to delete that first post was because some landowners actually read geocaching.com and would not be happy to find blatant violations of their rules.

 

Even if you decide to cache contrary to the wishes of the property owner, common sense says don't mention those violations in your log.

 

If only more people had common sense, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[+infiniteMPG]

So are you saying that FTF cachers disregarding park hours is leading to the degradation of geocaching? If so, do you have specific proof that a geocacher caching after a parks hours has led to the degradation of geocaching?

More specifically geocachers who violate park/preserve policies/rules have caused not only problems, but caused the banning of geocaching in certain areas :

 

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...ache051016.html

http://www.onda.org/defending-desert-wilde...ds-east-of-bend

 

And some parks have had to envoke extremely strict specific geocaching policies :

http://www.stpfriends.org/STP_Geocaches.html#SCCP-Policy

Which includes statements like :

 

Placing and searching for geocaches may only take place during normal park hours in park areas open to the public.

 

Best I could come up with in 5 minutes so I am sure deeper digging would bring up a lot more examples. If anyone violates the park/preserve/county/whatever rule/policy/regulation, geocaching would be banned. I think that about covers it as I would consider having geocaching banned anywhere due to the actions of geocachers would be considered quite degrading to the game by everyone.

[+infiniteMPG]

I believe the minimum on any highway is 40, but I could be mistaken.

It's 15mph below the posted speed limit.

[+Kit Fox]

And from the logs they seemed to of learned from it... will anyone else?

 

So are you saying that FTF cachers disregarding park hours is leading to the degradation of geocaching? If so, do you have specific proof that a geocacher caching after a parks hours has led to the degradation of geocaching?

 

Negative examples of geocaching activity was used against us during the South Carolina debacle. Anything done that violates the law, that is posted and viewable by the public, can and does hurt our game / hobby. Attitudes like your do nothing to promote a positive image for caching.

[+ReadyOrNot]

And from the logs they seemed to of learned from it... will anyone else?

 

So are you saying that FTF cachers disregarding park hours is leading to the degradation of geocaching? If so, do you have specific proof that a geocacher caching after a parks hours has led to the degradation of geocaching?

 

Negative examples of geocaching activity was used against us during the South Carolina debacle. Anything done that violates the law, that is posted and viewable by the public, can and does hurt our game / hobby. Attitudes like your do nothing to promote a positive image for caching.

 

I was being ironic I agree...

[+BlueDeuce]

Break 19

[+ReadyOrNot]

Break 19

Thermostat 12

[+BlueDeuce]

Break 19

Thermostat 12

 

No, that's CB talk for - Can everyone else shut up while I talk.

[+BlueDeuce]

You have to say - Go ahead Break. That way I know you are listening.

Edited February 21, 2008 by BlueDeuce

[+ReadyOrNot]

You have to say - Go ahead Break. That way I know you are listening.

 

Never been accused of listening.. But I'll give it a try...

 

Go ahead break!

[+TexasGringo]

***If you are hindering traffic and the normal flow, you can be ticketed, regardless of your speed***

 

True...

[+BlueDeuce]

.....Sorry, breaker on the bye. ReadyOrNot I'll cover this off line with you later.

Edited February 21, 2008 by BlueDeuce

[+infiniteMPG]

I was being ironic I agree...

Was that post ironic, too? Just checking to see if you were being ironic about being ironic... hehehe

[+infiniteMPG]

.....Sorry, breaker on the bye. ReadyOrNot I'll cover this off line with you later.

Breaker-breaker, down here in Cigar City we think the sock needs to keep the greasy side down 'n stick to da double nickels a'fore a city kitty yanks him off the big slab like an ankle biter in the cookie jar. We'll shake the bushes for ya so keep the hammer down and don't feed the bears. Catch ya on the flip flop.

 

Ouch... that hurt my brain.... hehehehe

[+ReadyOrNot]

.....Sorry, breaker on the bye. ReadyOrNot I'll cover this off line with you later.

 

Hey good neighbor, you got your ears on? We got a harvey wallbanger droppin' alligators in the hammer lane. Headin' to the pickle park to pick to pick up a seat cover. Over.

[+Driver Carries Cache]

And from the logs they seemed to of learned from it... will anyone else?

 

So are you saying that FTF cachers disregarding park hours is leading to the degradation of geocaching? If so, do you have specific proof that a geocacher caching after a parks hours has led to the degradation of geocaching?

 

My local Geocaching organization spends lots of time and effort forging good relations with our local City Governments, State Parks, Regional Parks etc. They attend public meetings, Regional Parks board meetings etc. and keep tabs on changes that might affect us as Geocachers. One of the main requests that land managers make to us is that they want guests visiting the parks they manage to follow all posted rules while Geocaching in these parks. Whether the rule in question is "leave all gates as you found them", "no dogs", "dogs must be on leash", "do not leave the established trails", or "follow the posted hours of operation"... they don't care. They just want the rules followed. A very reasonable request in exchange for our continued use of the parks for Geocaching.

 

The #1 way to get busted is for the neighbors to see you pull into the parking lot after the posted hours and head into the park. That neighbor then picks up the phone and calls the police. This has in fact happened to me, long before I found Geocaching. We went into a park to shoot some nighttime "time exposure" photographs, and upon exit, got greeted by the Sheriff's dept . Admittedly, we saw the hours posted, didn't think we were harming anything and... hello Sheriff! Needless to say, I don't do that anymore !

 

When the land manager gets that call that the police had to come out to the park in the middle of the night to round up some geocacher... who will the park see as responsible? That would be the person who attracted all this unwanted attention, the cache owner. To that land manager, you, the person who asked for permission to place the Geocache will be the root of the problem. If the Geocache wasn't here, the whole problem never happens. Easy solution... no more Geocaches!

 

So is the cache owner responsible for enforcing city and local laws, or park rules? No, but the park will see the cache owner as responsible for any trouble "attracted" by that Geocache. And people like our local cachers group, who court these land managers and try to make a good impression, get a big black-eye.

 

DCC

[+ReadyOrNot]

So is the cache owner responsible for enforcing city and local laws, or park rules? No, but the park will see the cache owner as responsible for any trouble "attracted" by that Geocache. And people like our local cachers group, who court these land managers and try to make a good impression, get a big black-eye.

 

DCC

 

I think this whole situation has more to do with the FTF issue than anything else. I am not condoning violating rules. I am condoning using common sense. There are some situations where hours are not posted, but it wouldn't be a good idea to cache there at night. Let's not be a bunch of mindless drones that follow every letter to a T just for the sake of following every letter to a T. Let's evaluate every situation and do whats right, not just what's required.

[+geomann1]

The person who found it first, found it first, irrespective of what the owner may think.

 

The only issue is who gets the online FTF credit, which when if you really think about it is meaningless.

 

They is way too much competition among anonymous strangers, at least on these boards.

[+nikcap]

The owner of GC19GW9 deleted a first to find log because the "first to finder" made the find during a local park's "closed" hours. I think this is bull. Am I wrong here? Are cache owners police officers now?

 

Good for the CO!

I'd like buy him a beer.

 

Shame on the FTF, he/she should know better.

May their batteries die 200ft from the next cache!

 

Cache responsibly and have fun.

[+SivartM]

The next time I'm surrounded by a mob of geocachers speeding through the park after hours, I'll try to keep up so I don't hinder traffic.

[kidsquare]

I say unless it is Stated " ftf must be with in park hours" on the Cache home page. This Cache owner was just executing his right to be an a**. From my expierience i would say Most caches are on some sort of Private property in one form or another. Knowing that the Cacher is the one that is at risk of being stoped or questioned by the owner of the property or the local law inforcement. Although it Dosent make it "right" being in a park that my tax dollars pay to maintain after "dusk" is no worse then walking through a parking lot looking for an Lamp post cache after the store or business that owns the parking lot is closed.

 

Also it is not as if We the Cachers are going to the park to hang around or Loiter, we have a purpose for being there. This is just my opinion on this matter.

 

BOO to the Cache owner and Waita go On the FTF to the Cacher!!

[+Knight2000]

I've cached after hours quite often. Some parks I do, some I don't, depending on the situation. I've NEVER had a problem. Does this mean I'm using my common sense? I guess so. I look at the hours as guidelines, not necessarily rules. Did you know you can get a ticket for going the speed limit? If everyone else around you is going 65 and you are hindering traffic by going 55, you can get a ticket....

 

Interesting...

So if you commit a crime several times and never get caught or have a penalty of some sort for it, then it is ok?

 

Not all parks close at night. But just because someone has been to a few when they are closed and havent had a problem does not mean that it is ok to do so.

[+ReadyOrNot]

I've cached after hours quite often. Some parks I do, some I don't, depending on the situation. I've NEVER had a problem. Does this mean I'm using my common sense? I guess so. I look at the hours as guidelines, not necessarily rules. Did you know you can get a ticket for going the speed limit? If everyone else around you is going 65 and you are hindering traffic by going 55, you can get a ticket....

 

Interesting...

So if you commit a crime several times and never get caught or have a penalty of some sort for it, then it is ok?

 

Not all parks close at night. But just because someone has been to a few when they are closed and havent had a problem does not mean that it is ok to do so.

 

I'll say it AGAIN. Use your common sense. What happens if there isn't a sign specifying the hours? We have a lot of 4 way intersections in residential areas with no traffic control. If there isn't a stop sign, does that mean you should barrel through? What about the stop sign in the middle of the desert with visibility at 5 miles in every direction?

 

Use common sense

[+Parabola]

After the third find a FTF is up for grabs again and the next person after that gets one too. Then the next gets a STF again.

 

Good for the cache owner.

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

From the cache page:

Nice little neighborhood park. Very peaceful, and a great place to watch the sunset. Views toward the Tucson Mountains. Again, one of those areas I didn’t know existed until I stumbled on it. Cache has log and a few small items. Need to bring your own writing implement.

 

Park Hours: 7:00 AM to Dusk. Typical rules apply – no golfing, dogs need be on a leash, no alcohol.

 

Not such a great place to watch a sunset if you have to hightail it out of the park before the sun has completely set.

I just may be too literal here but...

 

Dusk, by definition, does occur after sunset...at least that is my understanding!!!

 

Civilian Dusk: The time at which the sun is 6 degrees below the horizon in the evening.

 

Nautical Dusk: The time at which the sun is 12 degrees below the horizon in the evening.

 

Astronomical Dusk: The time at which the sun is 18 degrees below the horizon in the evening.

 

Yeah, tell that to the cops as they're beating you up for being in the park after dark.

[+Trucker Lee]

Although the FTF was the first to sign the log, we must all remember that our fun does occasionally come under scrutiny of police and the community. For this reason, we need to adhere to posted hours and rules, and be sure to ask property owner permission when needed. Only this will endear us to the above named groups, and it only takes one bad apple to mess up the impression all that polishing was trying to make.

 

I did notice the classy admission and reply by the other party. "It's all good".

[+thedeadpirate]

I did notice the classy admission and reply by the other party. "It's all good".

 

That's why I think this is really a non-issued. The people actually involved came to a good resolution all on their own.

[+Confucius' Cat]

If they actually signed the log at the cache - then it's a FTF - but apparently after park hours and trespassing, so kind of shady. =/ but if someone is just posting a log for the sake of claiming FTF and didn't actually go, the CO has all the rights in the world to delete it... it takes away from the game and not fair to others.

They were FTF but they don't get online bragging rights. Of course, they can use it for bragging rights in the county jail when they are talking to the mother rapers and the father rapers and the litterbugs sitting on the bench beside them...

 

Punk:

Whatchu in for, dude?

Cacher:

We Bad! We Bad! Looky here we done trespassed in a closed park. We Bad!

Punk:

in a park after hours? what you some kinda sissy?

Cacher:

We got FTF!

*punk bows in awe*

 

Kudos to the cache owner.

[+Knight2000]

I'll say it AGAIN. Use your common sense. What happens if there isn't a sign specifying the hours? We have a lot of 4 way intersections in residential areas with no traffic control. If there isn't a stop sign, does that mean you should barrel through? What about the stop sign in the middle of the desert with visibility at 5 miles in every direction?

 

Use common sense

Therein lies the problem.

 

Common sense is not common at all.

[+mvigor]

I dont want to just who's right or wrong, but where do we draw the line at enforcing the laws? What if someone mentions he ran a red light to get to a cache or made an illegal U-Turn? What if someone said he did a cache after happy hour (he might be tipsy in public) The cache should mention there are consequences for finding the cache after hours.

 

If the cache owner actually takes the time to make mention of the park's hours of operation, then common sense would say there are possible repercussions for not adhering to those hours.

 

Actually, just the fact that the park has posted hours of operation should be enough without it needing to be explicitly posted on the cache listing.

 

The real problem is common sense isn't as common as it should be.

 

I've cached after hours quite often. Some parks I do, some I don't, depending on the situation. I've NEVER had a problem. Does this mean I'm using my common sense? I guess so. I look at the hours as guidelines, not necessarily rules. Did you know you can get a ticket for going the speed limit? If everyone else around you is going 65 and you are hindering traffic by going 55, you can get a ticket....

 

Interesting...

 

Incorrect.

 

If the speed limit is 70 and you are doing 45, then yes, you can be ticketed as you may possibly be causing an unsafe condition. But if you are doing 55 in a 55 mph zone, you cannot be ticketed.

 

Like I said, the real problem is common sense is not as common as it should be.

 

That's incorrect.

 

If you are hindering traffic and the normal flow, you can be ticketed, regardless of your speed.

 

I call bullsnot on this. Got a link to prove this?

[+uminski]

No trespassing without permission

[+ReadyOrNot]

I call bullsnot on this. Got a link to prove this?

 

From the Oregon Vehicle Code. I'm sure most states have similar statutes. If you don't believe driving the speed limit can be a problem, go drive 55 down in Southern California. If you survive, please come tell us all about it.

 

(Impeding Traffic)

ORS 811.130 Impeding traffic; penalty. (1)

A person commits the offense of impeding

traffic if the person drives a motor vehicle

or a combination of motor vehicles in a

manner that impedes or blocks the normal

and reasonable movement of traffic.

 

The point of all this (I think), as it relates to geocaching, is that not everything is black and white. Use your common sense to determine the best thing to do. If you don't have common sense, then it doesn't really matter anyways, does it?

Edited February 22, 2008 by ReadyOrNot

[+uminski]

Does a FTL count

First to Log?

[+Confucius' Cat]

I call bullsnot on this. Got a link to prove this?

 

From the Oregon Vehicle Code. I'm sure most states have similar statutes. If you don't believe driving the speed limit can be a problem, go drive 55 down in Southern California. If you survive, please come tell us all about it.

 

(Impeding Traffic)

ORS 811.130 Impeding traffic; penalty. (1)

A person commits the offense of impeding

traffic if the person drives a motor vehicle

or a combination of motor vehicles in a

manner that impedes or blocks the normal

and reasonable movement of traffic.

 

The point of all this (I think), as it relates to geocaching, is that not everything is black and white. Use your common sense to determine the best thing to do. If you don't have common sense, then it doesn't really matter anyways, does it?

The "normal" movement of traffic, by definition, would be obeying all traffic laws, of which the speed limit is one.

 

I've heard of people being stopped as suspected "drug couriers" because they "scrupulously obeyed the speed limit." Once upon a time this particular form of "profiling" was popular in Volusia County, FL where the sheriff's deputies would allegedly confiscate one's Disney cash... well whatever that $5000 was really for.

 

But I have never heard of anyone actually being ticketed for obeying the speed limit. I would love to see the transcript of their trial if it ever happened.

[+Parabola]

The one question I have is the owner just deleted the FTF log or did he/she delete all logs from people that claim to make the find after the park is closed.

 

Regardless, the cache owner hasn't done anything wrong. They didn't overstep there power as a cache owner IMHO. I wouldn't be calling them a cache cop. To me they are just taking a stand against someone who has chosen to ignore local laws, and are making the sport look bad.

 

Exspecally, if he/she let the person find it during normal parks hours and relog it.

 

It just seems to me someone is more upset about the FTF part of things than anything.

[+ChiefWings]

My take on this:

1) The original finder is still the FTF regardless of whether or not he/she violated the park rules. I personally wouldn't do it since the FTF doesn't mean that much to me.

2) I think deleting the log was a bit over the top. If it were my cache and the log specifically mentioned that the finder violated the rules to find it I would ask that they edit it so it doesn't unintentionally encourage others to do the same, but I wouldn't delete it. They did find the cache after all.

3) I'm pretty sure around here the police don't sweep through the parks at closing time and kick everyone out. These park hours of operations are usually there so the cops have a reason to shut down late-night parties or remove the homeless. An otherwise law-abiding Geocacher likely wouldn't even mak the radar of the local LEOs. Naturally, this could vary from region to region.

Since I am clearly in the minority on this one I'll just don the flame-retardant suit and sit back now.

I’m a noob here and have found this thread interesting.

 

DanOCan, I agree with you. And would add to your point #2 that as CO, I’d edit my cache page to state that “Park hours MUST BE OBEYED to get credit for this cache.” Maybe in the COs area, park hours are a hot target for LEO or park management and this should be respected.

 

Your point #3 is pretty much the way it is here. This is a 24hr city and some folks walk their dog in their neighborhood park at 3am … with signs saying “closed at sundown.” But this is also a dangerous city and at times, the LEO will target certain areas and crack down on every “letter of-the-law.” But for the most part, they don’t have time to go after someone walking in a public park after posted hours. I’d bet they don’t even know the posted hours unless the park is one of their target areas that shift.

 

On the other hand, I grew up in a very small town and if someone was in one of the two city parks a minute after posted hours … Officer “Barney” would have been all over them. Or someone riding by would stop and yelled “citizen’s arrest.” So, yes, it varies region to region, city to city. When writing a cache page, one must remember that this is a world wide game.

 

The following is just to let COs know why parking coors. (or specific rules) are sometimes a good idea (a bit off topic of the OP):

A couple of weeks ago, I was on my way home and was feeling a bit down. Turned the GPSr on to see if a cache was near by … a hunt would take my mind off my troubles. There was that little gold box calling me. I hit “follow road” and I was on my way. It took me to a dead end in a neighborhood pointing across someone’s yard. I backtracked to another road GPSr took me to a private sports club with lots of “No Trespassing” signs. I stopped and pulled out my PDA to read the cache page again and the last 5 logs which were basically TFTC. No help. I aborted the hunt and went home. I checked the cache page to read all the logs and way, way back and finally found a log that mentioned how to legally get to the trailhead. It was behind a store in the back of a very large shopping center; a very nice paved path down to a greenway. Many of the past logs I read stated that they approached from the private sports club.

 

My point is: sometimes when cachers trespass, brake laws, damage property, or are a general nuisance; it can partly be the cache owners fault.

 

MHO

 

Happy Trails

[+Rockin Roddy]

My take on this:

1) The original finder is still the FTF regardless of whether or not he/she violated the park rules. I personally wouldn't do it since the FTF doesn't mean that much to me.

2) I think deleting the log was a bit over the top. If it were my cache and the log specifically mentioned that the finder violated the rules to find it I would ask that they edit it so it doesn't unintentionally encourage others to do the same, but I wouldn't delete it. They did find the cache after all.

3) I'm pretty sure around here the police don't sweep through the parks at closing time and kick everyone out. These park hours of operations are usually there so the cops have a reason to shut down late-night parties or remove the homeless. An otherwise law-abiding Geocacher likely wouldn't even mak the radar of the local LEOs. Naturally, this could vary from region to region.

Since I am clearly in the minority on this one I'll just don the flame-retardant suit and sit back now.

I’m a noob here and have found this thread interesting.

 

DanOCan, I agree with you. And would add to your point #2 that as CO, I’d edit my cache page to state that “Park hours MUST BE OBEYED to get credit for this cache.” Maybe in the COs area, park hours are a hot target for LEO or park management and this should be respected.

 

Your point #3 is pretty much the way it is here. This is a 24hr city and some folks walk their dog in their neighborhood park at 3am … with signs saying “closed at sundown.” But this is also a dangerous city and at times, the LEO will target certain areas and crack down on every “letter of-the-law.” But for the most part, they don’t have time to go after someone walking in a public park after posted hours. I’d bet they don’t even know the posted hours unless the park is one of their target areas that shift.

 

On the other hand, I grew up in a very small town and if someone was in one of the two city parks a minute after posted hours … Officer “Barney” would have been all over them. Or someone riding by would stop and yelled “citizen’s arrest.” So, yes, it varies region to region, city to city. When writing a cache page, one must remember that this is a world wide game.

 

The following is just to let COs know why parking coors. (or specific rules) are sometimes a good idea (a bit off topic of the OP):

A couple of weeks ago, I was on my way home and was feeling a bit down. Turned the GPSr on to see if a cache was near by … a hunt would take my mind off my troubles. There was that little gold box calling me. I hit “follow road” and I was on my way. It took me to a dead end in a neighborhood pointing across someone’s yard. I backtracked to another road GPSr took me to a private sports club with lots of “No Trespassing” signs. I stopped and pulled out my PDA to read the cache page again and the last 5 logs which were basically TFTC. No help. I aborted the hunt and went home. I checked the cache page to read all the logs and way, way back and finally found a log that mentioned how to legally get to the trailhead. It was behind a store in the back of a very large shopping center; a very nice paved path down to a greenway. Many of the past logs I read stated that they approached from the private sports club.

 

My point is: sometimes when cachers trespass, brake laws, damage property, or are a general nuisance; it can partly be the cache owners fault.

 

MHO

 

Happy Trails

 

Your approach of "please change your log to not mention that you couldn't obey park hours and broke the law, please make it sound like you are law abiding". Is why we have much of the troubles we do have in caching. Allowing the actions is adding to the problems. Seems people are too "afraid to hurt someone's feelings" or "afraid to be called the cache police (ohhh BOO HOO)"...maybe you guys should be worried if you'll be allowed to cache in your city or state parks!

 

Although a cache page COULD be written to better give parking details and such, NEVER is the cache owner responsible for holding the finder's hand and making sure they have enough brains to legally find a cache. I would HOPE that most cachers are smart enough to KNOW not to trespass simply to get a cache (do you really think the cache owner had to trespass to place the hide??)...those that don't...well leaving the house must be a chore for them! And damaging property then blaming the cache owner...WOW! Please don't come near MY hides until you can understand that YOU are responsible for YOUR actions!

 

Blaming the cache owner for another's ignorance...WOW!

 

Hey RoN....did you forget that speed laws also apply?? I believe it's illegal to also break posted speed laws. Your "driving the speed limit" argument isn't swaying me a bit (and I can run it past my LEO friend just to be sure I'm not missing something...I'll post my findings after I have coffee with her later). In fact, I DEFY an LEO to give me a ticket for obeying the law! Common sense people!

 

GeoBain...apparently not a non-issue when sooo many have the attitude that any laws are breakable for a find! I agree, those in this case handled it well...but if someone can learn from this topic, it's helping!

[CacheZombies]

I say unless it is Stated " ftf must be with in park hours" on the Cache home page. This Cache owner was just executing his right to be an a**. From my expierience i would say Most caches are on some sort of Private property in one form or another. Knowing that the Cacher is the one that is at risk of being stoped or questioned by the owner of the property or the local law inforcement. Although it Dosent make it "right" being in a park that my tax dollars pay to maintain after "dusk" is no worse then walking through a parking lot looking for an Lamp post cache after the store or business that owns the parking lot is closed.

 

Also it is not as if We the Cachers are going to the park to hang around or Loiter, we have a purpose for being there. This is just my opinion on this matter.

 

BOO to the Cache owner and Waita go On the FTF to the Cacher!!

 

Im with Kidsquare on this one, What is the deal with all the private property caches then? How many of us have turned down a lamp post cache or something of that nature souly on the reasoning that it is in a parknig lot on private property? not many im sure. I feel that "Cache at your own risk" is a fair way of thinking when leaving to find a FTF or any other Cache for that matter. Unless the Cache owner specefied as in "FTF will only count when found during park hours" which i read the origional posting and he/she didnt, FTF means FTF. If you start a game of any kind there is no rule changing after it has allready started right? the Cache owner should be more specific if he is worried about what goes on during A hunt for his cache, Or maybe he himself should of learned a lesson from this instead of trying to teach them?

 

Just wanted to put my $0.02 on the matter and as always Happy caching cachers!!

[+Rockin Roddy]

I say unless it is Stated " ftf must be with in park hours" on the Cache home page. This Cache owner was just executing his right to be an a**. From my expierience i would say Most caches are on some sort of Private property in one form or another. Knowing that the Cacher is the one that is at risk of being stoped or questioned by the owner of the property or the local law inforcement. Although it Dosent make it "right" being in a park that my tax dollars pay to maintain after "dusk" is no worse then walking through a parking lot looking for an Lamp post cache after the store or business that owns the parking lot is closed.

 

Also it is not as if We the Cachers are going to the park to hang around or Loiter, we have a purpose for being there. This is just my opinion on this matter.

 

BOO to the Cache owner and Waita go On the FTF to the Cacher!!

 

Im with Kidsquare on this one, What is the deal with all the private property caches then? How many of us have turned down a lamp post cache or something of that nature souly on the reasoning that it is in a parknig lot on private property? not many im sure. I feel that "Cache at your own risk" is a fair way of thinking when leaving to find a FTF or any other Cache for that matter. Unless the Cache owner specefied as in "FTF will only count when found during park hours" which i read the origional posting and he/she didnt, FTF means FTF. If you start a game of any kind there is no rule changing after it has allready started right? the Cache owner should be more specific if he is worried about what goes on during A hunt for his cache, Or maybe he himself should of learned a lesson from this instead of trying to teach them?

 

Just wanted to put my $0.02 on the matter and as always Happy caching cachers!!

 

For the umpteenth time...it's NOT just YOU who you are potentially hurting when BREAKING A LAW to get a cache!!! How is it that so many miss the fact that caching could be endangered just because of some silly FTF! I AM amazed at how some HAVE to be told to obey all laws while searching for a cache...give me a break!

 

The FTF stands as far as I'm concerned...you can't change the fact that the cache was signed. You CAN expect people to have a brain and to USE it instead of losing it when a cache is published. Reminds me of the teen behind the wheel alone for the first time...sure, he/she likely KNOWS going 80 is illegal, but their brains flew out the window when the key was turned...just because the cache was published at night or w/o every letter of the law listed doesn't mean it's fair game to break those unlisted laws!

[+keehotee]

It wouldn't happen over here....

 

In England trespass is a civil wrong - not a criminal offence.

The only option for a landowner would be to sue for any loss or damage as a result of the trespass.

If all you are doing is walking across a park to get to a cache there can't have been much damage caused if any.

Parks and other municipal areas here are covered by byelaws - but again, these are mostly civil rules, not criminal laws (although there are a couple that apply to National Parks that can be prosecuted in the criminal courts)

[CacheZombies]

"For the umpteenth time...it's NOT just YOU who you are potentially hurting when BREAKING A LAW to get a cache!!! How is it that so many miss the fact that caching could be endangered just because of some silly FTF! I AM amazed at how some HAVE to be told to obey all laws while searching for a cache...give me a break!"

 

Spoken like someone who never trespassed on private property such as a Wallmart? A Mall? fast Food? or any other local business parking lot after the business has closed to grab a cache.. is that true Roddy? I think not.

 

On the same princable that no one should "HAVE" to tell someone not to break laws, the person breakin them is doing so under there own power! Regardless of ANYTHING that ANYBODY has ever said to them about "law breaking". The Moral of the story is Cache responsibly! Use your head and there is no denieing at this point that the cache owner over reacted! afterall it wasnt his decision to decide who gets FTF. It was simply his decision to place a cache in that park or somewhere else or nowhere at all...

[saopaulo1@hotmail.com]

Slightly off topic. I've seen some cache placed in stupid and illegal caches. Once a nice ranger told me that a cache place in the banks of a ravine was illegal. It was illegal to go off the trail. I emailed the owner and posted a warning. Nothing was ever done about it.

[CacheZombies]

Thats not off topic at all thats exactly what I was refuring to, I suppose nobody here would step off the trail to grab that Cache? Most trails around rivers and wildlife areas say "stay on the trail" So if i put a cache out and it could be reached without leaving the trail (if your tall enough) but The FTF or anybody for that matter logs a find by going off the trail cause lets say it was easier for them to reach? I have the right to Erase any or all logs because i didnt feel they had good enough Moral's? Thats ridiculous!

[saopaulo1@hotmail.com]

Thats not off topic at all thats exactly what I was refuring to, I suppose nobody here would step off the trail to grab that Cache? Most trails around rivers and wildlife areas say "stay on the trail" So if i put a cache out and it could be reached without leaving the trail (if your tall enough) but The FTF or anybody for that matter logs a find by going off the trail cause lets say it was easier for them to reach? I have the right to Erase any or all logs because i didnt feel they had good enough Moral's? Thats ridiculous!

 

I think people just didnt know the law. It wasnt the first cache placed on the banks.