Taking the Fun ot of GeoCaching - Groundspeak - Geocaching

February 20, 2008

Who out there has tried to create an event, cache or other type of geocaching find that was told that it didn't fit within the rules? I know there are a lot of you out there because the logs, caches and events are filled with complaints where the administrators have a stick up their *** . Go look at this GC18TXJ for a great example. I was also trying to create a cache where fellow geocachers could come see my Christmas display between Thanksgiving and New Years do a hunt, log a find and say hello in the process. (An extended event or limited Geocache.) Do you think this is allowed no! I also know of a geocacher who finally got fed up with the rules and pulled all of her Caches in Vancouver, WA. She had something like 30 hides and she pulled them all and deactivated them because she was tired with the restrictive rules.

Why is Waymarking taking over what used to be Geocaching's domain? Why do I want to start another account and do things that used to be allowed on Geocaching? I refuse to do Waymarking after I figured out that most of the features of Waymarking used to be a part of geocaching. Virtual, webcam and Locationless caches all used to be a part of geocaching. It is now impossible to do a new Geocache in a lot of the major national parks. For example Crater Lake doesn't allow actual caches so instead the park is full off virtual caches before the rules where put in place. Now if you want to create a geocache it is not allowed and you have to create a earthcache which are very difficult to make and a lot of people don't like doing them or Waymarking. The Waymarking has 75,000 entries and I would dare say that 70,000 of them are places that a geocacher is not going to care about. Example - http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WM68H

What should Geocaching do to resolve these problems:

1. Bring back Virtual Caches and Reverse Caches.

2. Loosen up how event rules and caches are applied.

3. Allow creativity and bending of the rules or more flexible rules!!!!!

4. Geocache administrators should be NICE and allow creativity.

5. Stop trying to force Waymarking on us Geocachers.

What happens if something is not done to resolve these issues? Simple more people will stop geocaching which is a bad thing.

OTazMan

8.4k · February 20, 2008

Who out there has tried to create an event, cache or other type of geocaching find that was told that it didn't fit within the rules? I know there are a lot of you out there because the logs, caches and events are filled with complaints where the administrators have a stick up their *** . Go look at this GC18TXJ for a great example. I was also trying to create a cache where fellow geocachers could come see my Christmas display between Thanksgiving and New Years do a hunt, log a find and say hello in the process. (An extended event or limited Geocache.) Do you think this is allowed no! I also know of a geocacher who finally got fed up with the rules and pulled all of her Caches in Vancouver, WA. She had something like 30 hides and she pulled them all and deactivated them because she was tired with the restrictive rules.

Why is Waymarking taking over what used to be Geocaching's domain? Why do I want to start another account and do things that used to be allowed on Geocaching? I refuse to do Waymarking after I figured out that most of the features of Waymarking used to be a part of geocaching. Virtual, webcam and Locationless caches all used to be a part of geocaching. It is now impossible to do a new Geocache in a lot of the major national parks. For example Crater Lake doesn't allow actual caches so instead the park is full off virtual caches before the rules where put in place. Now if you want to create a geocache it is not allowed and you have to create a earthcache which are very difficult to make and a lot of people don't like doing them or Waymarking. The Waymarking has 75,000 entries and I would dare say that 70,000 of them are places that a geocacher is not going to care about. Example - http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WM68H

What should Geocaching do to resolve these problems:

1. Bring back Virtual Caches and Reverse Caches.

2. Loosen up how event rules and caches are applied.

3. Allow creativity and bending of the rules or more flexible rules!!!!!

4. Geocache administrators should be NICE and allow creativity.

5. Stop trying to force Waymarking on us Geocachers.

What happens if something is not done to resolve these issues? Simple more people will stop geocaching which is a bad thing.

OTazMan

OOOOOooOOOoo... Angsty. :unsure:

18.9k · February 20, 2008

Wow.....

You have to remember that Geocaching.com is a business and the current guidelines exist (in part) to protect that business model. Also to protect the activity as a whole.

I for one am happy that virtuals and the like are now over at Waymarking. (BTW - same account as you use here). Geocaching should be about finding something somewhere. Waymarking is just about finding the somewhere.

The guidelines for events are clear - follow them and you are ok - don't and you will need permission to list the event on this website. Remember it is a business.

Chill - go find some caches and you will feel better.

February 20, 2008

Nobody's forcing you to play this game. If people don't like it, they don't have to be part of it. I'm sorry you feel this way. But how about listing the positives, they probally outweight the negative (which aren't what you list)

1.3k · February 20, 2008

2.2k · February 20, 2008

Hello from Clackamas... Can you tell us exactly what happened to cause your angst? Did you have an event rejected? Tell us how you really feel

3.3k · February 20, 2008

I've been caching for almost 4 years and i'm quite happy with the current guidelines.

February 20, 2008

I'm quite happy with the current guidelines.

Ditto

February 20, 2008

If you need a Web Developer to build your new Geocaching website (the one with the lax rules), contact me.

This Geocaching site works just fine the way it is.

Ya gotta love that "I can't follow the rules, so either there are too many or they need changing" attitude.

Events seem to occur regularly all across the country with a minimum of difficulty. Maybe you should look at the root cause of the problem (which isn't "overly restrictive" rules, but something a little closer to home).

I could go for months now without hearing someone complain about not being able to create a new virtual/moving/locationless/reverse cache.

I'll end with one of my favorite sayings: "If you're not having fun, it's your own fault".

DCC

22k · February 20, 2008

OOOOOooOOOoo... Angsty.

You have to admit he did package all his issues in a nice little box.

21.9k · February 21, 2008

Hello there, otazman. With five posts, I see that you're a relatively new participant in the Groundspeak Forums. Just as geocache placements are governed by the Cache Listing Guidelines (one subject of your complaints), posts in the forums are governed by the Forum Guidelines. Please take a moment to read them. You will learn that you violated two of the Guidelines with your opening post.

The first point is

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.... Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

Remember that Groundspeak and its volunteer cache reviewers are geocachers, too. It is fine to disagree with the rules that govern how this listing site is run, but you need to refrain from making personal attacks against individuals or groups of individuals.

The second point is

Foul Language and obscene images will not be tolerated. This site is family friendly, and all posts and posters must respect the integrity of the site.

Don't be lazy and let the forum's automatic censor catch your potty language. Even implied cussing is a no-no:

Please refrain from foul language in the forums. It is unnecessary even with ** or # or whatever. There are other ways to put things that are far less offensive.

If you can calm down and have a civil discussion, you will find that there are many people with diverse views who love to debate the same subjects mentioned in your post. They do so respectfully, for the most part. You didn't. Consider this your "one free bite." I considered just closing your disrespecful thread, but it's better to keep it open to illustrate that we're not afraid of constructive criticism and discussion.

By the way, has anyone seen my stick?

Edited February 21, 2008 by Keystone

4k · February 21, 2008

Just because there are guidelines, doesnt mean that you have to follow them.

Don't get me wrong, i get very irritated when people don't follow the guidelines. I have learned that i am anal retentive and people will play however they want to play, guidelines or not.

February 21, 2008

I don't have any problems with the current "rules"...

They are there after years of experience, for Groundspeaks & our protection...

I may not agree with all of them, but that's the way the game is played...

I ave always found reviewers to be easy to work with...

It may take a few e-mails to justify something, but usually because I have been too cryptic in my original request...

if you want less restrictive rules, there is always that "other" caching game...

I wouldn't mind seeing virtuals & reverse locationless go back to the way they were though...

Edited February 21, 2008 by Peconic Bay Sailors

3k · February 21, 2008

There's too much angst and perceived wrongs lumped all together in your post for me to address all your concerns. But I would like to correct what I view are a couple of inaccuracies, and offer a couple of thoughts with regard to your Waymarking and Virtual comments and questions.

Why is Waymarking taking over what used to be Geocaching's domain?

There are many, many existing topics that discuss the history behind Groundspeak's decision to no longer allow the listing of new virtual caches on this site. If you are truly interested in how this all came about, I suggest that you take a look at a few of them.

Why do I want to start another account and do things that used to be allowed on Geocaching?

You don't need to start another account to make use of the Waymarking site - the account you use to access Geocaching.com will work on Waymarking.com.

I refuse to do Waymarking after I figured out that most of the features of Waymarking used to be a part of geocaching.

There are a number of what I consider to be valid reasons why someone would not want to make use of the Waymarking site. But I can't understand why someone would refuse to 'do Waymarking' simply because some of the offerings on that site are similar to what use to be available on GC.com.

Virtual, webcam and Locationless caches all used to be a part of geocaching.

Couple of thoughts:

Virtuals: many would (and have) argued that there are no Virtuals on the Waymarking site. Others would argue that the only difference between a Waymark and a Virtual is the lack of a smilie. My view falls somewhere in between those two perspectives. But as I mentioned above, the real reason they are no longer listed on GC.com can be found in many other topics. Hint: it has to do with the lack of a workable definition for "wow".

Webcams: It is true that there is a Webcam category on the Waymarking site (it is one of the nearly 700 different categories). In my opinion, webcam waymarks are quite similar to Webcams as they used to exist on GC.com.

Locationless caches: In my opinion, the Waymarking site functions extremely well as a replacement for the Locationless cache concept. You may not know this, but for several reasons, locationless caches were essentially non-functional by the time they were removed from GC.com. It was a serious issue, and the source of much angst.

It is now impossible to do a new Geocache in a lot of the major national parks. For example Crater Lake doesn't allow actual caches so instead the park is full off virtual caches before the rules where put in place. Now if you want to create a geocache it is not allowed and you have to create a earthcache which are very difficult to make and a lot of people don't like doing them or Waymarking. The Waymarking has 75,000 entries and I would dare say that 70,000 of them are places that a geocacher is not going to care about.

Both virtual caches and waymarks, at their core, are intended to bring you to a place that at least someone (and probably others with similar tastes) would find interesting. Why would the exact same place be any less interesting simply because its coordinates are listed on WM.com rather than GC.com?

What should Geocaching do to resolve these problems:

1. Bring back Virtual Caches and Reverse Caches.

This has been discussed many, many times. And Jeremy has been very clear that there are no plans to do this.

5. Stop trying to force Waymarking on us Geocachers.

Since this item is carried under your heading of "What should Geocaching do to resolve these problems" (I take it you are referring to Groundspeak when you say "Geocaching" in that heading), I assume you perceive that Groundspeak is trying to force something on you that you don't want to do. How and where are they (or anyone else for that matter) trying to "force" anything on you? I don't see that removing a feature from the site forces you to seek an alternative. You have the choice of not participating if the new offering is not appealing to you.

February 21, 2008

If you can calm down and have a civil discussion, you will find that there are many people with diverse views who love to debate the same subjects mentioned in your post. They do so respectfully, for the most part. You didn't. Consider this your "one free bite." I considered just closing your disrespecful thread, but it's better to keep it open to illustrate that we're not afraid of constructive criticism and discussion.
By the way, has anyone seen my stick?

Wow that post was me being calm and civil. :unsure: I am pretty sure you will hear the word ** on about any PG movie that I can think of and they wouldn't even bleep it.

Anyway your response confirms my point of #2. I am actually surprised that you didn't delete the post.

2. Loosen up how event rules and caches are applied.

I also love a couple of responses that pretty much say to avoid the problems post one thing in the cache or event and then do something completely different. That is lying and I try to avoid that.

OTazMan

2.4k · February 21, 2008

By the way, has anyone seen my stick?

No... and if it's been where the OP says it has, I'm not going to look for it. :unsure:

21.9k · February 21, 2008

By the way, has anyone seen my stick?

No... and if it's been where the OP says it has, I'm not going to look for it.

I can respect that. Not everyone enjoys the FTF race.

February 21, 2008

The way I see it, you join an organization knowing full well what the rules are before joining. Since the OP joined July, '07, the "rules" are the same now as when he/she enrolled. Perhaps the OP never read the fine print earlier and is now getting caught in the misconception that the masses rule the owners?

There have been changes made since I first signed up, and I got caught listing caches that were now disallowed. However it is just a matter of going with the flow and adjusting to change, or quitting. I'm not quitting, I enjoy this pastime too much.

6.1k · February 21, 2008

4. Geocache administrators should be NICE ..

as nice as you?

1.3k · February 21, 2008

By the way, has anyone seen my stick?

No, but you may want to look where you store your thermometer.

February 21, 2008

. Example - http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WM68H

I think Art o mats are very cool. And I can't wait until I can add one to my icon grid. They have a very interesting history and are extremely rare. http://www.artomat.org/ If you really wanted to pick on Waymarking you should have used the Taco Bell category. Wait.... I have found caches in lamer places than that (magnetic on the bottom of garbage can) so maybe that won't work for you either.

38.2k · February 21, 2008

Who out there has tried to create an event, cache or other type of geocaching find that was told that it didn't fit within the rules?

Not me. When I submit a cache or event I check a box that says that I read the guidelines. I check this box because I actually did read the guidelines and because of that I've never had a cache turned down.

The rules weren't created for the sake of creating rules. They were created in response to problems. There aren't a lot and the ones that exist are quite easy to follow. There may be some grey areas and your reviewer is always happy to help you out with them, but they are not onerous at all and in the end, have the best interests of the sport in mind.

I was also trying to create a cache where fellow geocachers could come see my Christmas display between Thanksgiving and New Years do a hunt, log a find and say hello in the process. (An extended event or limited Geocache.) Do you think this is allowed no!

You sound surprised. Since you indicated that you read the guidelines by checking that box when you submitted this, you shouldn't have been.

Why is Waymarking taking over what used to be Geocaching's domain?

Actually it's not. You come to geocaching.com to find geocaches. Virtuals aren't geocaches.

Edited February 21, 2008 by briansnat

24.7k · February 21, 2008

....Why is Waymarking taking over what used to be Geocaching's domain? ...

Good question. Someone made a decision that boxes except for earth caches and behcmarks - sort of, would be listed on this site. More or less. So then they moved the non box caches to a non box site called Waymarking. Then they didn't bring back some cache types they implied (perhaps even said( they would. Of course you could actually create a waymark catagory for each type of cache in turn and get a dual listing here there and on other sites.

The end result is that Waymarking is something kinda similar to caches without actually being caches, and caches are not what they used to be. It does get hard to track.

Thanks for brining up your posts in the forum where the feedback can be used by the people who can actually do something about it.

February 21, 2008

Chill - go find some caches and you will feel better.

Oh I need one soon.

2.2k · February 21, 2008

you haven't been caching a year yet, and you're pining for 'the good ol' days'? you weren't here for 'the good ol' days'.

2.1k · February 21, 2008

2. Loosen up how event rules and caches are applied.

OTazMan

This game has been working quite smoothly for nearly eight years. You might want to take a step back and observe for a bit longer.

It is quite common for new people to get bounced by the guidelines, take it too personally and then come here to let us all know how bad things are really are. But... many of us have been around for a while and have seen this happen MANY times and we know that the game is working very well. Most of us have been bounced too. Let things cool a bit and try again.

It helps to try to see things from the reviewer's side. They are not trying to spoil your fun and they have been doing a very admiral job for many years. And... they are volunteering their efforts. Like the road construction signs say: "Give 'em a Break!"

2.2k · February 21, 2008

Go look at this GC18TXJ for a great example. I was also trying to create a cache where fellow geocachers could come see my Christmas display between Thanksgiving and New Years do a hunt, log a find and say hello in the process. (An extended event or limited Geocache.)

What you have presented are two examples of a situation where a cache is submitted which doesn't meet the guidelines and was thus rejected. I don't see a problem with that, it is how the system is supposed to work.

I also know of a geocacher who finally got fed up with the rules and pulled all of her Caches in Vancouver, WA. She had something like 30 hides and she pulled them all and deactivated them because she was tired with the restrictive rules.

I suspect there is more to the story than we are told. If these caches were already hidden and approved they were obviously compliant with the guidelines so I don't see how these "restrictive rules" impacted existing caches.

Now if you want to create a geocache it is not allowed and you have to create a earthcache which are very difficult to make and a lot of people don't like doing them or Waymarking.

Actually, Earthcaches are quite easy to create as long as you read, understand and follow the guidelines. But, that seems to be the real issue here, isn't it?

I also find it interesting that on one hand you argue that Virtual caches should be revived yet you say "a lot of people don't like doing them [Earthcaches]" which are essentially virtuals. If so many people don't like doing them why bring back Virts?

I get the feeling you are upset that your idea for an Event didn't meet the guidelines and felt the urge to vent. I can understand that -- I remember being ticked when one of my caches wasn't approved because it was too close to another cache I forgot about. It would have been easy to lash out at Groundspeak but I quickly realized it was my fault, not theirs.

Cheers!

February 21, 2008

:unsure:

I think I've heard a lot of this before. :lol:

1.5k · February 21, 2008

I am pretty sure if you look hard enough you might find the answers you seek other places

3 years and counting for me and have fully enjoyed the guidelines and even have learned to become a better geocacher from them and the help of local reviewers

1k · February 21, 2008

3. Allow creativity and bending of the rules or more flexible rules!!!!!

If rules get bent, then what's going to unbend them? Sometimes rules have to be rigid for a reason, otherwise chaos develops.

On a side note.

While I would like to see virtuals come back to geocaching, because I like finding virtuals in spots where geocaches aren't allowed. Like you mentioned, National Parks are a specific example of spots where virtuals work imo. Looking at a map of Crater Lake, I can see two Earthcaches and three Virtuals that are still in existence. Those would take you almost all the way around the lake to get those five.

How many more are needed in that park?

With three traditional caches sitting near roads on the border of the park, a person on a day trip could easily get 8 cache smileys on a one day trip to Crater Lake.

Enjoy the scenery - the lake is the wow factor - and if there's not that many caches there, find the ones that are and move on. I for one will stay an extra day just to hike a trail in the park and enjoy more of the scenery. I don't have to find a cache everywhere I go.

19k · February 21, 2008

Is this what they mean by "Geocide"?

BTW, what was the problem with "GC18TXJ" ? I see no problem there.

February 21, 2008

I am pretty sure if you look hard enough you might find the answers you seek other places

3 years and counting for me and have fully enjoyed the guidelines and even have learned to become a better geocacher from them and the help of local reviewers

Ummmmm....you got a little something on your nose.

I agree. The hobby has survived through lots of changes of guidelines and various other changes. You have to adapt to play this game! I am amazed at some of the stuff we are allowed to get away with without the general public realizing who we are. Not that any of it is illegal, I just love doing something that most people have no idea about.

I FULLY AND WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE WITH THE GUIDELINES! (This line was also spoken out loud as well because I think Jeremy has sent out a crack group of moderators to install bugs in my home. Please if you are reading this and I disappear, come find me.....)

Edited February 21, 2008 by DoctorWho

3.9k · February 21, 2008

By the way, has anyone seen my stick?

It's a staff...not a stick!

El Diablo

1.5k · February 21, 2008

A geocacher....on a stickkkkk

February 21, 2008

February 21, 2008

By the way, has anyone seen my stick?

LOL, I think we have a spare in our large cache. Just be wary of the guy that likes to leave live rodents in caches. I'd be scared to see what he'd leave in ours.

February 21, 2008

I think you say it "on a steeek" (like Jose Jalapeno....On a Steeek")

February 21, 2008

Jose is more laid back more than an ironing board. That puppet rocks. lol

1k · February 21, 2008

I think you say it "on a steeek" (like Jose Jalapeno....On a Steeek")

Dumb@ss..... ~Walter~

Been caching for a while now, long enough to have 236 hides. Had a few issues here and there with the local reviewer but we've always worked it out with respect for each other. I respect her because she's a volunteer and a good person who puts up with a load of cr@p from disrespectful people and all for naught.... I respect that and therefore respect her because it's people like her that make GC a sucess. A very thankless job that I wouldn't want to have. And one they would be willing to let you do if you want to see what it feels like from the other side of the cache submissions.... for no pay, no rewards and no thanks. You interested? :rolleyes:

February 21, 2008

By the way, has anyone seen my stick?

It's a staff...not a stick!

El Diablo

if you get sick from it, is it because it became a Staff infection? (Ducks any staffs thrown my way) :rolleyes:

understandable, rules need to be followed. If not to protect the game itself, to protect the players too!

I was just reading in another thread, where someone posted a cache in a park, and clearly posted the park

hours being open to the public. However, the FTF posted their find, 5 minutes before the opening time of the

park, on the day before the cache was officially posted. there's still dispute over whether they accessed the park to find the cache, or the surrounding property which itself could be private. (looks like in the middle of a huge sand lot.) result, the cache owner disqualified the FTF.

I also had to justify one of my caches, being close to a dam. I'm also a firefighter, and back when the attacks in New York happened, we did a study of the area dams. (Including the dam near my cache.) by same token, I may've been the one to get a cache disqualified because it is right on the very edge of a public water supply. (within 4 feet of a seldomly used control gate. But if that gate were damaged (maliciously) it could cause flooding, or prevent relief of the reservoir it is on.)

Also, understand, in many cases, we're ignoring the #1 rule of many parks, or nature preserves..

If You carry it in, Carry it out! we are, essentially leaving something behind, that despite

it's size, or content, will have an environmental impact.

where some forest animal may've had shelter, we just left a small plastic or metal object. What are the long-term effects of that object? (steel rusts. Plastic breaks when cold., try as we may, Paints contain chemicals or lead. )

Mind you, I'm not a hyper environmentalist. so don't start slamming with terms like tree hugger.

but think of this.. that little Altoids box that looked great for a cache, will eventually rust, and break down. Would you want to be the cacher who reaches in, and get cut with the rusty sharp edge? Hope your tetanus shots are up to date! and I've run across a few like this already

Edited February 21, 2008 by gelfling6

9.4k · February 21, 2008

I was also trying to create a cache where fellow geocachers could come see my Christmas display between Thanksgiving and New Years do a hunt, log a find and say hello in the process. (An extended event or limited Geocache.) Do you think this is allowed no!

When Christmas rolls around again, feel free to submit your waymark to my

Holiday Displays category. Waymarks aren't geocaches, so they shouldn't be listed on geocaching.com.

9.5k · February 21, 2008

Why does my post say ringbone?

2.3k · February 21, 2008

We've clicked on those two boxes that read we've read and understood the guidelines hundreds of times and are happy to do it... :rolleyes:

38.2k · February 21, 2008

We've clicked on those two boxes that read we've read and understood the guidelines hundreds of times and are happy to do it...

We all check the boxes if we hide a cache, but it's obvious that many people don't actually read them. The OP is a prime example. He complains that his caches were turned down because they violated rules that he claimed he understood and agreed to when he submitted the caches.

February 21, 2008

Briansnat feels so strongly about this, he took time out from his presidential campaign to post. :rolleyes:

February 21, 2008

As Brian stated, there are rules the approvers have to follow to approve a cache...

They are always willing to work with you...

If you have not violated the rules, and can explain that you have not...

Then your cache will be approved...

If your cache is really in violation, then it should not be approved...

The approvers are not there to bust your chops...

They want more caches to get out there...

If there were no rules, then Geocaching would certainly go away...

for liability reasons, alone...

We have only had one cache that was not approved, as it was placed on a dam...

shortly after 9/11... it was a clear violation then...

The approver was right and we were wrong...

and the approver explained the reason why it was not approved, politely and clearly...

We hold no animosity...

Edited February 21, 2008 by Peconic Bay Sailors

February 21, 2008

I've been caching for almost 4 years and i'm quite happy with the current guidelines.

Ditto, except it's been 7 years.

February 21, 2008

The guidelines are there for the protection of Groundspeak & the individual cache owners ...

February 21, 2008

I had a Multi-Cache not approved because it was 15' feet closer to RailRoad tracks than what was allowed.

It took some time to move that stage to a new location and then change the hints in the previous stage to match the new coordinates...etc.

For 15' feet I was pissed to...but at who? I guess myself for not placing that stage far enough away and double checking the distance. The reviewers were only doing their job...and caught me.

1k · February 21, 2008

It's a staff...not a stick! - El Diablo

What do you call a boomerang that doesn't come back to you?

Huh? We're not playing Jeopardy???? Dang... I knew that one!

Taking the Fun ot of GeoCaching - Groundspeak - Geocaching

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