List of UK Counties

[Deceangi]

Has anyone got a completely accurate list of all counties in the UK [England, Scotland and Wales and including Northern Ireland] which can be passed over to Groundspeak, to help with the implementation of UK counties for cache placements. The reason I'm asking is that a few UK cachers have requested this in this Topic with one of the Lakeys making the following requests the only list that seems to have been made does not show the current situation [especially Wales were the 8 ceremonial counties have been listed instead of the current 22]

[+L8HNB]

Stands back as a can of worms explodes......

 

We use the "traditional" counties as they can't keep changing, on a Political whim, as they have been doing recently. Call us old fashioned but some of these new 2Unitary" areas don't mean a fat lot.

 

L comes from Lancs and I come from Worcs so we know about Counties being bu99ered about with!

 

There's lots of stuff on the web but this is a good start - http://www.abcounties.co.uk/index.htm (sorry don't know how to do the linky thing!).

 

When the UK caching community decides what is best then a definitive list, just might, be worrkable......

 

H

[+Jaz666]

This really is opening up a whole kettle of fish, lets hope it doesn't devolve to arguments over semantics.

 

A good place to start would be the wikipedia entry here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_counties

 

http://www.nearby.org.uk/counties/ had a ready made set of borders, but as some have commented before, the accuracy might not be spot on.

Edited February 14, 2008 by Jaz666

[Deceangi]

Personally I would say the counties being used today, reason being I just had a look at a OS 50,000 paper map which covers sections of 4 seperate counties. These are marked on the border of the Map. As many mapping products use OS data, when a new cache is submitted it would be easy for the owner to classify which county it is in. Any attempt to use historic counties would just cause confusion. The details of actual boundary's is not needed, as it would not be used, the owner would just be choosing which county from a drop down list.

 

And I do understand some peoples preference for historic counties since my home town was originally in Lancashire but is now in Greater Manchester. My home is in Flintshire, but was once in Clwyd [not something I'd ever use to describe my location]

[+RickyB_uk]

Personally I would say the counties being used today, reason being I just had a look at a OS 50,000 paper map which covers sections of 4 seperate counties. These are marked on the border of the Map. As many mapping products use OS data, when a new cache is submitted it would be easy for the owner to classify which county it is in. Any attempt to use historic counties would just cause confusion. The details of actual boundary's is not needed, as it would not be used, the owner would just be choosing which county from a drop down list.

 

And I do understand some peoples preference for historic counties since my home town was originally in Lancashire but is now in Greater Manchester. My home is in Flintshire, but was once in Clwyd [not something I'd ever use to describe my location]

 

You say the "counties being used today", but that's not 100% clear cut.

 

I would personally go for the "ceremonial counties". These are proper legal entities, and have a lord lieuitenant for ceremonial purposes. They should not change much in the forseeable future. I would say, particularly in England, the ceremonial counties are what most people would call their county.

 

The boundaries shown on the OS maps are "administrative counties" which are usually areas with a council. This includes all of the Unitary Authorities - so your home town was in the Greater Manchester ceremonial county - but is in one of the Metropolitan Boroughs for its administrative county - because Greater Manchester doesn't have a council anymore.

 

The situation in Wales would put your house in Clwyd if you go with ceremonial counties (called preserved counties in Wales)- Flintshire with administrative counties - but going for the admin. counties would also include, say, Conwy or Wrexham as a county.

 

There are major local government changes afoot for some areas in the next couple of years.

 

In 2009, several large counties will be split into one or more unitary authorities - e.g. Cheshire will cease to be an administrative county - instead there will be two unitary authorities in its place - West and East Cheshire. The ceremonial county of Cheshire will remain unchanged (it would include West and East Cheshire, as well as Warrington and Halton UAs)

 

I would say, in light of future local government reorganisation, we use ceremonial counties which shouldn't change their borders significantly.

 

The full list for England is here. Similar lists are available for the other parts of the UK

[+keehotee]

The full list for England is here. Similar lists are available for the other parts of the UK

As an aside - are people really trusting everything they read on Wikipedia nowadays??????

We're still being told not to trust it for research or quotes - just as an initial pointer to more trustworthy sources.......

Edited February 14, 2008 by keehotee

[+Firth of Forth]

We no longer have counties in Scotland. We now have 32 'unitary authorities' which can be found:

 

here

 

However, since these boundaries may be subject to the whim of any future Scottish government, it may be safest to use the old counties list, even though the counties were 'abolished' in 1975.

 

here

Edited February 14, 2008 by Firth of Forth

[Alan White]

Unfortunately there is no definitive answer to the original question. Many of the entities that used to be called counties no longer exist. Those that do no longer have the same boundaries. We have to accept that counties and unitary authorities are simply political areas which have been frequently changed in the last thirty years, and will no doubt continue to be changed. As such, many counties exist only in memory.

 

Berkshire is a classic example. I use it merely as a description of the rough area I live in, as most (English) people have heard of the Royal County of Berkshire. But Berkshire no longer exists. Pre-1974 Berkshire included most of what is now in Oxfordshire, even beyond Abingdon and up to the very edge of Oxford itself. The shadow of Berkshire which most people would recognise today is actually UAs of West Berkshire, Reading, Bracknell Forest, & RBWM.

 

Does it matter what "county" a cache is in? It used to be common for cache owners to put the county in the cache name. This now happens very rarely, which I think says all we need to know about the desire for counties.

 

But if we must have "counties" then the ceremonial ones are most closely aligned to what many people would think of. The least worst option, if you will.

[+minstrelcat]

The details of actual boundary's is not needed, as it would not be used, the owner would just be choosing which county from a drop down list.

 

I understand that automatically assigning the counties according to a border outline would be more difficult, but it could cause all sorts of confusion letting owners choose!

 

A couple of examples near home: Chatham is in the Medway unitary authority, Bromley in a London borough - yet both of these have Kent addresses as the Royal Mail hasn't kept up with these changes.

 

Also - I'm sure there are a lot of people who insist they live in Middlesex which doesn't exist any more!

 

Anyway - I for one would really love the opportunity to just search for Kent (and Medway if necessary) caches so my PQs don't get clogged up with London and Essex caches - areas I don't often go caching in.

 

Lisa

[markandlynn]

Hmm what about using this list

 

To quote from the

 

"The new county boundaries are solely for the purpose of defining areas of ... local government. They are administrative areas, and will not alter the traditional boundaries of Counties, nor is it intended that the loyalties of people living in them will change."

[+Moote]

Berkshire is a classic example. I use it merely as a description of the rough area I live in, as most (English) people have heard of the Royal County of Berkshire. But Berkshire no longer exists. Pre-1974 Berkshire included most of what is now in Oxfordshire, even beyond Abingdon and up to the very edge of Oxford itself. The shadow of Berkshire which most people would recognise today is actually UAs of West Berkshire, Reading, Bracknell Forest, & RBWM.

 

Local Government Act 2000 and 2003 did not remove any of the present counties of England (which were setup in the 1972 Act), all it did was to allow for the creation of Unitary Authorities within the present county structures. The local Authorities still work together as a county to provide services such as the one found here.

[+PopUpPirate]

 

Remember what happened with the Big Quest?

 

Stick with the LQ counties and it will be a WHOLE lot easier :

 

* Bedfordshire, including Luton

* Berkshire

* Bristol

* Buckinghamshire, including Milton Keynes

* Cambridgeshire, including Peterborough

* Cheshire, including Halton and Warrington

* City of London

* Cornwall, including Isles of Scilly

* Cumbria

* Derbyshire, including Derby

* Devon, including Plymouth and Torbay

* Dorset, including Bournemouth and Poole

* Durham, including Darlington, Hartlepool, and Stockton-on-Tees north of the River Tees

* East Riding of Yorkshire, including Kingston-upon-Hull

* East Sussex, including Brighton and Hove

* Essex, including Southend-on-Sea and Thurrock

* Gloucestershire, including South Gloucestershire

* Greater London, excluding the City of London

* Greater Manchester

* Hampshire, including Southampton and Portsmouth

* Herefordshire

* Hertfordshire

* Isle of Wight

* Kent, including Medway

* Lancashire, including Blackburn with Darwen, and Blackpool

* Leicestershire, including Leicester

* Lincolnshire, including North Lincolnshire, and North East Lincolnshire

* Merseyside

* Norfolk

* North Yorkshire, including York, Middlesbrough, Redcar and Cleveland, and Stockton-on-Tees south of the River Tees

* Northamptonshire

* Northumberland

* Nottinghamshire, including Nottingham

* Oxfordshire

* Rutland

* Shropshire, including Telford and Wrekin

* Somerset, including Bath and North East Somerset and North Somerset

* South Yorkshire

* Staffordshire, including Stoke-on-Trent

* Suffolk

* Surrey

* Tyne and Wear

* Warwickshire

* West Midlands

* West Sussex

* West Yorkshire

* Wiltshire, including Swindon

* Worcestershire

[+The Cache Hoppers]

As far as I am concerned I live in Reading, Berkshire. I have never used W Berks in my address and have never received correspondence with W Berks on the envelope. Anyway, I noticed this on a geocaching shop recently. Not sure if it is of any help. You may need to register/sign in to view it.

[+FollowMeChaps]

Now which would be best for us to use, traditional Counties or Administrative areas?

 

There's only one way to find out.............................

FIGHT!

:)

[+Guanajuato]

I'd put a vote in for the list at nearby.org - they seem to be sensible. Try telling someone from York that York is not in (north) Yorkshire...

 

On that one, I'd be against using the ridings whatever - think of all the muricans coming over looking for caches in the south riding... Or cachers looking for caches in the North Riding thinking Harrogate being in North Yorkshire must be in the North riding. Though I can't think why anyone would want to know where caches around arrogate are.

 

I think this is one of those situations where democracy falls over as everyone has a different opinion based on their background & age.

 

Deci - I think you just need to decide which list to use and us it! Bit of a democratic dictatorship.

 

 

Just to add, I think this is conclusive:

FIGHT!!!!

Edited February 14, 2008 by Guanajuato

[+Moote]

 

Remember what happened with the Big Quest?

 

Stick with the LQ counties and it will be a WHOLE lot easier :

 

* Bedfordshire, including Luton

* Berkshire

* Bristol

* Buckinghamshire, including Milton Keynes

* Cambridgeshire, including Peterborough

* Cheshire, including Halton and Warrington

* City of London

* Cornwall, including Isles of Scilly

* Cumbria

* Derbyshire, including Derby

* Devon, including Plymouth and Torbay

* Dorset, including Bournemouth and Poole

* Durham, including Darlington, Hartlepool, and Stockton-on-Tees north of the River Tees

* East Riding of Yorkshire, including Kingston-upon-Hull

* East Sussex, including Brighton and Hove

* Essex, including Southend-on-Sea and Thurrock

* Gloucestershire, including South Gloucestershire

* Greater London, excluding the City of London

* Greater Manchester

* Hampshire, including Southampton and Portsmouth

* Herefordshire

* Hertfordshire

* Isle of Wight

* Kent, including Medway

* Lancashire, including Blackburn with Darwen, and Blackpool

* Leicestershire, including Leicester

* Lincolnshire, including North Lincolnshire, and North East Lincolnshire

* Merseyside

* Norfolk

* North Yorkshire, including York, Middlesbrough, Redcar and Cleveland, and Stockton-on-Tees south of the River Tees

* Northamptonshire

* Northumberland

* Nottinghamshire, including Nottingham

* Oxfordshire

* Rutland

* Shropshire, including Telford and Wrekin

* Somerset, including Bath and North East Somerset and North Somerset

* South Yorkshire

* Staffordshire, including Stoke-on-Trent

* Suffolk

* Surrey

* Tyne and Wear

* Warwickshire

* West Midlands

* West Sussex

* West Yorkshire

* Wiltshire, including Swindon

* Worcestershire

So where is Humberside, Cleveland???? Looks like you are running 2 systems for county boundaries. You really need one or the other

[Lactodorum]

Stick with the LQ counties and it will be a WHOLE lot easier :

That's my feeling as well but no doubt others will disagree. Then we need an acceptable list of Welsh and Scottish counties and we're all set. Oh no, we then need to debate whether to include six (or more!) counties in Northern Ireland. Or not .

 

I somehow feel that after several previous abortive attempts to define where we all live we'll NEVER agree. Perhaps 3 reviewers should thrash it out over a few pints at the Mega event (see I got the plug in!) - that's beer for two and Perrier for one .

 

Or maybe we could keep discussing it ad nauseum

[+Moote]

Try these as quoted by the Government

 

Greater London

Greater Manchester

Merseyside

South Yorkshire

Tyne and Wear

West Midlands

West Yorkshire

Avon

Bedfordshire

Berkshire

Buckinghamshire

Cambridgeshire

Cheshire

Cleveland

Cornwall and Isles of Scilly

Cumbria

Derbyshire

Devon

Dorset

Durham

East Sussex

Essex

Gloucestershire

Hampshire

Hereford and Worcester

Hertfordshire

Humberside

Kent

Lancashire

Leicestershire

Lincolnshire

Norfolk

Northamptonshire

Northumberland

North Yorkshire

Nottinghamshire

Oxfordshire

Shropshire

Somerset

Staffordshire

Suffolk

Surrey

Warwickshire

West Sussex

Wiltshire

Clwyd

Dyfed

Gwent

Gwynedd

Mid Glamorgan

Powys

South Glamorgan

West Glamorgan

[+Team Clova]

There was a list of Uk and Irish counties created for the Big Quest which if I recall most forum users seemed to agree on.

 

http://rutson.co.uk/uk/counties.htm

[Alan White]

Remember what happened with the Big Quest?

 

(list snipped)

No, but that looks remarkably like the list from Wikipedia that RickyB_uk linked to. Does that mean there's a consensus forming?

 

But who would think that Bristol is a county? And using Merseyside will (and long has) upset the Wirralians

[+Moote]

And for Lactodorum these are listed

 

Scotland

 

Aberdeen City

Aberdeenshire

Angus

Argyll and Bute

Clackmannanshire

Dumfries and Galloway

Dundee City

East Ayrshire

East Dunbartonshire

East Lothian

East Renfrewshire

Edinburgh, City of

Eilean Siar

Falkirk

Fife

Glasgow City

Highland

Inverclyde

Midlothian

Moray

North Ayrshire

North Lanarkshire

Orkney Islands

Perth and Kinross

Renfrewshire

Scottish Borders

Shetland Islands

South Ayrshire

South Lanarkshire

Stirling

West Dunbartonshire

West Lothian

 

NI

 

Derry City

Limavady

Coleraine

Ballymoney

Moyle

Larne

Ballymena

Magherafelt

Cookstown

Strabane

Omagh

Fermanagh

Dungannon

Craigavon

Armagh

Newry and Mourne

Banbridge

Down

Lisburn

Antrim

Newtownabbey

Carrickfergus

North Down

Ards

Castlereagh

Belfast

[markandlynn]

Or these

 

1. Bedfordshire (Bedford, Luton, Dunstable, Leighton Buzzard, Biggleswade, Sandy)

2. Berkshire (Reading, Bracknell, Maidenhead, Newbury, Windsor, Wokingham, Abingdon)

3. Buckinghamshire (Aylesbury, Milton Keynes, Slough, Buckingham, High Wycombe)

4. Cambridgeshire (Cambridge, Wisbech, Ely, March, Whittlesey, Chatteris, Linton)

5. Cheshire (Chester, Stockport, Birkenhead, Wallasey, Runcorn, Macclesfield, Crewe)

6. Cornwall (Bodmin, Truro, Camborne, Redruth, St. Austell, Falmouth, Penzance, Newquay)

7. Cumberland (Carlisle, Whitehaven, Workington, Penrith, Keswick, Brampton)

8. Derbyshire (Derby, Chesterfield, Ilkeston, Swadlincote, Buxton, Matlock, Ashbourne)

9. Devon (Exeter, Plymouth, Torquay, Paignton, Barnstaple, Tiverton, Newton Abbot, Tavistock)

10. Dorset (Dorchester, Poole, Weymouth, Sherborne, Wimborne Minster, Shaftesbury)

11. Durham (Durham, Sunderland, Stockton-on-Tees, Darlington, Hartlepool, Gateshead, Washington)

12. Essex (Chelmsford, Basildon, Romford, Southend, Colcheter, Harlow, Brentwood, West Ham)

13. Gloucestershire (Gloucester, Bristol, Cheltenham, Stroud, Cirencester, Tewkesbury)

14. Hampshire (Winchester, Southampton, Portsmouth, Bournemouth, Basingstoke, Newport)

15. Herefordshire (Hereford, Ross-on-Wye, Leominster, Ledbury, Bromyard, Kington)

16. Hertfordshire (Hertford, Watford, St. Albans, Hemel Hempstead, Stevenage, Hatfield)

17. Huntingdonshire (Huntingdon, St. Ives, St. Neots, Ramsey, Yaxley)

18. Kent (Maidstone, Canterbury, Bromley, Rochester, Margate, Folkestone, Dover, Greenwich)

19. Lancashire (Lancaster, Liverpool, Manchester, Preston, Bolton, Warrington, Barrow-in-Furness)

20. Leicestershire (Leicester, Loughborough, Hinckley, Melton Mowbray, Coalville, Lutterworth)

21. Lincolnshire (Lincoln, Grimsby, Scunthorpe, Boston, Grantham, Stamford, Skegness, Louth)

22. Middlesex (City of London, Harrow, Enfield, Staines, Ealing, Potters Bar, Westminster )

23. Norfolk (Norwich, Great Yarmouth, King's Lynn, Dereham, Cromer, Hunstanton)

24. Northamptonshire (Northampton, Peterborough, Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough)

25. Northumberland (Alnwick, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Morpeth, Hexham, Berwick-upon-Tweed)

26. Nottinghamshire (Nottingham, Mansfield, Worksop, Newark, Retford, Southwell)

27. Oxfordshire (Oxford, Banbury, Witney, Bicester, Henley-on-Thames, Carterton, Thame)

28. Rutland (Oakham, Uppingham. Cottesmore)

29. Shropshire (Shrewsbury, Telford, Oswestry, Bridgnorth, Whitchurch, Market Drayton, Ludlow)

30. Somerset (Taunton, Bath, Weston-super-Mare, Yeovil, Bridgwater, Wells, Glastonbury)

31. Staffordshire (Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Wolverhampton, Walsall, Cannock, Lichfield)

32. Suffolk (Ipswich, Bury St. Edmunds, Lowestoft, Felixstowe, Sudbury, Haverhill, Bungay)

33. Surrey (Guildford, Croydon, Woking, Sutton, Kingston-on-Thames, Wandsworth, Wimbledon, Brixton)

34. Sussex (Chichester, Brighton, Worthing, Crawley, Hastings, Eastbourne, Bognor Regis, Horsham)

35. Warwickshire (Warwick, Birmingham, Coventry, Nuneaton, Rugby, Solihull, Stratford-upon-Avon)

36. Westmorland (Appleby, Kendal, Windermere, Ambleside, Kirkby Lonsdale)

37. Wiltshire (Trowbridge, Salisbury, Swindon, Chippenham, Devizes, Marlborough, Warminster)

38. Worcestershire (Worcester, Dudley, Kidderminster, Stourbridge, Halesowen, Malvern, Evesham)

39. Yorkshire

North Riding (Northallerton, Middlesbrough, Scarborough, Whitby)

East Riding (Beverley, Hull, Bridlington, Driffield, Hornsea, Filey)

West Riding (Wakefield, Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford, Halifax, Harrogate)

York (within the Walls)

 

 

WALES (including Monmouthshire)

40. Anglesey/Sir Fon (Beaumaris, Holyhead, Llangefni, Amlwch, Menai Bridge)

41. Brecknockshire/Sir Frycheiniog (Brecon, Builth Wells, Hay-on-Wye, Talgarth, Llanwrtwd Wells)

42. Caernarfonshire/Sir Gaernarfon (Caernarfon, Bangor, Llandudno, Conwy, Pwllheli, Porthmadog)

43. Carmarthenshire/Sir Gaerfyrddin (Carmarthen, Llanelli, Ammanford, Llandovery, Kidwelly, St. Clears)

44. Cardiganshire/Ceredigion (Cardigan, Aberystwyth, Lampeter, New Quay, Tregaron)

45. Denbighshire/Sir Ddinbych (Denbigh, Wrexham, Ruthin, Abergele, Llangollen)

46. Flintshire/Sir Fflint (Mold, Flint, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Connah's Quay, Holywell, Buckley, St. Asaph)

47. Glamorgan/Morgannwg (Cardiff, Swansea, Merthyr Tydfil, Barry, Caerphilly, Bridgend, Neath, Pontypridd)

48. Merioneth/Meirionnydd (Dolgellau, Bala, Tywyn, Blaenau Ffestiniog, Barmouth, Harlech)

49. Monmouthshire/Sir Fynwy (Monmouth, Newport, Blackwood, Cwmbran, Abergavenny, Chepstow, Tredegar)

50. Montgomeryshire/Sir Drefaldwyn (Montgomery, Newtown, Welshpool, Machynlleth, Llanidloes)

51. Pembrokeshire/Sir Benfro (Pembroke, Milford Haven, Haverfordwest, Fishguard, Tenby, St. David's)

52. Radnorshire/Sir Faesyfed (Presteigne, Llandrindod Wells, Knighton, Rhayader, New Radnor)

 

 

SCOTLAND

53. Aberdeenshire (Aberdeen, Peterhead, Fraserburgh, Inverurie, Huntley, Ellon, Turriff)

54. Angus/Forfarshire (Forfar, Dundee, Arbroath, Brechin, Montrose, Carnoustie, Kirriemuir)

55. Argyllshire (Inveraray, Oban, Dunoon, Campbeltown, Lochgilphead, Tobermory)

56. Ayrshire (Ayr, Kilmarnock, Irvine, Saltcoats, Kilwinning, Largs, Troon, Cumnock)

57. Banffshire (Banff, Buckie, Keith, Macduff, Portsoy, Dufftown)

58. Berwickshire (Greenlaw, Duns, Eyemouth, Lauder, Coldstream)

59. Buteshire (Rothesay, Millport, Brodick, Lochranza)

60. Cromartyshire (Cromarty, Ullapool)

61. Caithness (Wick, Thurso, Halkirk, Castletown)

62. Clackmannanshire (Clackmannan, Alloa, Tillicoultry, Tullibody)

63. Dumfriesshire (Dumfries, Annan, Lockerbie, Moffat, Sanquhar, Langholm, Gretna)

64. Dunbartonshire/Dumbartonshire (Dumbarton, Clydebank, Cumbernauld, Helensburgh, Alexandria, Kirkintilloch)

65. East Lothian/Haddingtonshire (Haddington, North Berwick, Dunbar, Tranent, East Linton)

66. Fife (Cupar, Dunfermline, Glenrothes, Kirkcaldy, St. Andrews, Cowdenbeath, Burntisland)

67. Inverness-shire (Inverness, Fort William, Kingussie, Newtonmore, Portree)

68. Kincardineshire (Stonehaven, Banchory, Laurencekirk, Inverbervie)

69. Kinross-shire (Kinross, Milnathort)

70. Kirkcudbrightshire (Kircudbright, Castle Douglas, Dalbeattie, New Galloway)

71. Lanarkshire (Lanark, Glasgow, East Kilbride, Hamilton, Motherwell, Coatbridge, Carluke)

72. Midlothian/Edinburghshire (Edinburgh, Musselburgh, Penicuik, Dalkeith, Bonnyrigg)

73. Morayshire (Elgin, Forres, Rothes, Lossiemouth, Fochabers)

74. Nairnshire (Nairn, Auldearn, Cawdor, Ferness)

75. Orkney (Kirkwall, Sromness, Balfour)

76. Peeblesshire (Peebles, Innerleithen, West Linton)

77. Perthshire (Perth, Crieff, Pitlochry, Callander, Blairgowrie, Rattray, Coupar Angus, Kincardine)

78. Renfrewshire (Renfrew, Paisley, Greenock, Johnstone, Port Glasgow, Barrhead, Kilmalcolm)

79. Ross-shire (Dingwall, Stornaway, Tain, Alness, Invergorden)

80. Roxburghshire (Jedburgh, Hawick, Kelso, Melrose, Roxburgh)

81. Selkirkshire (Selkirk, Clovenfords, Galashiels)

82. Shetland (Lerwick, Scalloway, Baltasound)

83. Stirlingshire (Stirling, Falkirk, Grangemouth, Kilsyth, Bridge of Allan, Denny, Alva)

84. Sutherland (Dornoch, Helmsdale, Brora, Golspie, Lairg, Durness, Tongue)

85. West Lothian/Linlithgowshire (Linlithgow, Livingston, Bo'ness, Broxburn, Whitburn, Armadale, Bathgate)

86. Wigtownshire (Wigtown, Stranraer, Newton Stewart, Whithorn)

 

 

I think weve give GC enough for them to choose for us, whatever they give us will be better than nothing after all.

[+OldNickCov]

Has anyone got a completely accurate list of all counties in the UK [England, Scotland and Wales and including Northern Ireland] which can be passed over to Groundspeak, to help with the implementation of UK counties for cache placements. The reason I'm asking is that a few UK cachers have requested this in this Topic with one of the Lakeys making the following requests the only list that seems to have been made does not show the current situation [especially Wales were the 8 ceremonial counties have been listed instead of the current 22]

 

Since the proliferation of unitary authorities, there is no such thing as a completely accurate list, as large parts of the country, and massively larger parts of the population, no longer have a county.

 

Can I urge the adoption of the 'Ceremonial Counties' list as being the best, generally-recognizable list of counties. Unitary authorities are too localised and meaningless except to people that live and work in each one, and earlier county lists than the Ceremonial list have been modified so many times as to be over-confusing.

[Alan White]

(snipped)

That map is a pre-1974 version of the counties, and clearly shows the problem with Berkshire which I referred to. No-one today would recognise a Berkshire of that shape, as the whole NW of it is now in Oxfordshire .

[+HazelS]

Remember what happened with the Big Quest?

 

(list snipped)

But who would think that Bristol is a county? And using Merseyside will (and long has) upset the Wirralians

 

LOL

 

Alan is right... we hate being part of Merseyside, and don't see ourselves as being so, but administratively, we are!

 

If they are to use the Counties in Wiki, can someone please tell them that there is a county called Merseyside!! We use the list for the NW TB race stats, and Merseyside doen't exist according to Wiki!!

 

Personally I thnk Wirral "sits" better in Cheshire, but they don't want us!! hee hee

[+Moote]

Since the proliferation of unitary authorities, there is no such thing as a completely accurate list, as large parts of the country, and massively larger parts of the population, no longer have a county.

 

Can I urge the adoption of the 'Ceremonial Counties' list as being the best, generally-recognizable list of counties. Unitary authorities are too localised and meaningless except to people that live and work in each one, and earlier county lists than the Ceremonial list have been modified so many times as to be over-confusing.

 

Sorry this is not correct as per my post below

 

Berkshire is a classic example. I use it merely as a description of the rough area I live in, as most (English) people have heard of the Royal County of Berkshire. But Berkshire no longer exists. Pre-1974 Berkshire included most of what is now in Oxfordshire, even beyond Abingdon and up to the very edge of Oxford itself. The shadow of Berkshire which most people would recognise today is actually UAs of West Berkshire, Reading, Bracknell Forest, & RBWM.

 

Local Government Act 2000 and 2003 did not remove any of the present counties of England (which were setup in the 1972 Act), all it did was to allow for the creation of Unitary Authorities within the present county structures. The local Authorities still work together as a county to provide services such as the one found here.

 

The post 1972 counties still exist for administration of facilities like Police and Fire as well as waste management

 

Example:

 

Warrington Borough Council is a Unitary Authority, it still uses Cheshire Fire and Rescue, Cheshire Police and several other services, they still have seats on the County to administer these services; but they have their own control on many other services. People who live in Warrington still pay a precept to the County.

[+HazelS]

(snipped)

That map is a pre-1974 version of the counties, and clearly shows the problem with Berkshire which I referred to. No-one today would recognise a Berkshire of that shape, as the whole NW of it is now in Oxfordshire .

 

Again, Alan is right here too.... Manchester AND Liverpool seem to be in Lancs... not been that way since pre 1974, and these days, Mancunians REALLY dont' see themselves as beng lancastrians!!

[Alan White]

Personally I thnk Wirral "sits" better in Cheshire, but they don't want us!! hee hee

Historically (in this context, pre-1974) that's of course exactly where it was. And I see that you've finally persuaded Royal Mail to change the L postcodes to CH

[Alan White]

Again, Alan is right here too.... Manchester AND Liverpool seem to be in Lancs... not been that way since pre 1974, and these days, Mancunians REALLY dont' see themselves as beng lancastrians!!

Indeed. I was born and bred in Liverpool and, except for genealogical purposes (the other hobby ), neither I nor anyone else would think of Liverpool as being in Lancashire.

[+HazelS]

 

Remember what happened with the Big Quest?

 

Stick with the LQ counties and it will be a WHOLE lot easier :

 

 

One of the best things said on this subject - these boundaries have seemed to be accepted by th amajority in terms of the LQ series.

[+Alibags]

John Speed did a nice map showing the counties, published in 1620...

[+OldNickCov]

John Speed did a nice map showing the counties, published in 1620...

 

So he did - maybe a series of caches is called for, featuring only locations as shown on Speed's maps.

[+The Cache Hoppers]

 

Remember what happened with the Big Quest?

 

Stick with the LQ counties and it will be a WHOLE lot easier :

 

 

One of the best things said on this subject - these boundaries have seemed to be accepted by th amajority in terms of the LQ series.

 

And since Deci wants it for geocaching purposes anyway, and there is a LQ cache in each county to use as a marker, I reckon thats a darned good idea

[+BCNorwich]

'Ceremonial Counties' Please, I think most people at present know these and would be comfortable with them even given a few irregularities. There's talk afoot that the Norfolk, Suffolk border may well change sometime.

 

Regards

Bernard

[barryhunter]

just to add my tuppenth worth...

 

Hmm, yes given a choice would opt for Ceremonial

(as mentioned here are here: http://www.nearby.org.uk/counties/

but there might be a better list somewhere. It should and accurate list for GB, just the borders themselves are inaccurate)

 

You could go for the modern admistrative geography, but the list is unwieldy, probably unfamiliar, and gerrymandered,

http://www.geograph.org.uk/statistics/coverage_by_county.php

(if it not clear that list is hte offical list as used by OS maps for GB - sadly missing NI, I dont beleive there are any licencing issues with using that list)

See also

http://www.nearby.org.uk/geonames/GB-Ontology.php

(click the open top 2 levels button)

 

But the least contentious (if such a think is possible) I would say historic counties, as mentioned these are available on www.abcounties.org.uk

 

But the list posted on

http://rutson.co.uk/uk/counties.htm

seems a good 'usable' list to me.

 

(edited to clarify a few points)

Edited February 14, 2008 by barryhunter

[+L8HNB]

I suppose a ballot could be arranged for those attending the Mega Event, with representation by email for those that can't get to it.

 

This should get input from those active on the forum and those 500+ who will be there, surely this would cover the majority of active cachers.

 

It would be good to bottom it out one way or the other.

 

Perhaps make a grand announcement then as well.......

[Deceangi]

Couple of points to remember.

 

No physical boundary's will be used by GC, the list is to provide subdivision of the UK to allow extra filtering in PQ's and cache searches. which would come in extremly handy for those near a large natural barrier [for instance I live on the North Wales coast, if I do a search from home within 10 miles I get caches on the Wirral. I can stand on the beach and wave to people at some of the cache sites, but to get to them means a 30+mile journey one way]

 

Including counties for caches in NI which are listed in the UK would help to remove them from searches for caches by those in Scotland. NI is unique in that caches there may be listed as being either in the UK or Ireland. Ideally the same counties would be added to the Ireland Counties list as well. Until such time as GC renames the area Ireland-RoI & NI or similar, to take into account the uniqueness of the area.

 

Also please remember GC will only implement the counties list if we provide them with one, they will not pick a single list from a multiple choice.

 

As a general consensus does not seem reachable I thought that I'd put the following 2 lists forward and ask every one to indicate a preference [please remember you considering Administration areas only for filtering purposes, and not physical boundaries]

 

Option One: Administration Geography of the UK click on Open Top 2 Levels

 

Option Two: Rutsons list

 

And then come to a final decision with Eckington and Lactodorum, which will then be passed on to GC as the definitive counties list. And yes I'm aware we're not going to please everyone, but as stated the aim is to provide more filtering in PQ's and cache searches.

 

And if I seem to be rushing the issue, it's because GC have recently implemented counties for several other European country's, and I'd like to see this happen for the UK. The Mega is 6 months away, by the time we'd tallied up all votes we'd be looking at least 8 months from now before we could present the results to GC. By which time we could be looking at a code freeze as GC prepares to role out V2 (Phoenix) of the site [if it hasn't already been done]. Meaning we'd have no idea what sort of wait we would be looking at for implementation.

[+Moote]

The problem here is everyone has their own view of what is and is not a County, you have to use the present day legislated list, this is and always will be the only way.

[+Guanajuato]

The problem here is everyone has their own view of what is and is not a County, you have to use the present day legislated list, this is and always will be the only way.

 

To me that comes over as a little patronising and arrogant - It comes across as 'I'm right and anyone who holds a different opinion is an [insert any term you like here]'. But that's a moot(e) point

 

Why do we have to use the 'current legilsated' list? The police don't have to be bound by that list, the NHS doesn't have to. Just because some faceless bureaucrats in Whitehall (or Cardiff or Edinburgh) have decided to change the names every few years to justify their employment or to satisfy political desires doesn't mean we all have to go along with it.

 

I'd go with Rutson's list as it contains counties that mean something to most people. My earlier example of York not being in Yorkshire is clearly just silly.

 

This is and always will be the only way.

[+Mad H@ter]

The problem here is everyone has their own view of what is and is not a County, you have to use the present day legislated list, this is and always will be the only way.

But I'm sure that Groundspeak will not be keen on updating there lists each time the UK government decides to change this. Surely it would be better to agree on a historic list of some sort which is fixed.

[+Happy Humphrey]

But the list posted on

http://rutson.co.uk/uk/counties.htm

seems a good 'usable' list to me.

...and me.

I'd go with Rutson's list as it contains counties that mean something to most people.

Looks a good compromise to me. You really need a list that takes into account all the local preferences (e.g. Manchester and Liverpool, which is where the "Ceremonial Counties" proposal falls down) without getting too much into the latest administrative divisions (which don't matter much for geocaching purposes). Alan White's point isn't relevant as we're not talking about mapping boundaries: so a cacher would (or should) know that his new cache is in Berkshire even if I wouldn't be certain.

[markandlynn]

I think Rutson's list was drawn up in response to all the "where such and such county in the list" objections last time.

 

So another vote for Rutson's list.

 

Of note is that in an older thread on the other forum someone stated that if no list is available we will get England, NI, Wales, Cornwall and Scotland.

[+OldNickCov]

 

As a general consensus does not seem reachable I thought that I'd put the following 2 lists forward and ask every one to indicate a preference [please remember you considering Administration areas only for filtering purposes, and not physical boundaries]

 

Option One: Administration Geography of the UK click on Open Top 2 Levels

 

Option Two: Rutsons list

 

 

Of those two, Rutson's list, every time. The alternative has far too many unitary authorities, which in most cases, to most people, are not counties. Many of them aren't even cities.

[+Dark_Faerie]

 

I'd go with Rutson's list as it contains counties that mean something to most people. My earlier example of York not being in Yorkshire is clearly just silly.

 

 

Me too. Rutsons list has South Yorkshire and doesn't wipe Doncaster, Barnsley and Rotherham off the map (putting Sheffield in the correct county helps too ). It MAY stop foreign visitors getting lost too.

Any list is better than none, it's a long way between the Scottish Highlands and Cornwall!

[+PopUpPirate]

This thread is painful.

 

Rutsons list. No-brainer given the 2 choices.

[+Moote]

The problem here is everyone has their own view of what is and is not a County, you have to use the present day legislated list, this is and always will be the only way.

 

To me that comes over as a little patronising and arrogant - It comes across as 'I'm right and anyone who holds a different opinion is an [insert any term you like here]'. But that's a moot(e) point

 

Why do we have to use the 'current legilsated' list? The police don't have to be bound by that list, the NHS doesn't have to. Just because some faceless bureaucrats in Whitehall (or Cardiff or Edinburgh) have decided to change the names every few years to justify their employment or to satisfy political desires doesn't mean we all have to go along with it.

 

I'd go with Rutson's list as it contains counties that mean something to most people. My earlier example of York not being in Yorkshire is clearly just silly.

 

This is and always will be the only way.

Most people under 50 knew nothing of the ceremonial counties or any of the other combinations which have appeared.

 

The NHS is nationally funded, no monies come through CTax for that. Police, Fire are funded both nationally and locally.

 

So

 

Cheshire police service mainly the Cheshire area, and the Authorities in Cheshire manage them

Greater Manchester police service mainly the Greater Manchester area, and the Authorities in Greater Manchester manage them

Cleveland police service mainly the Cleveland area, and the Authorities in Cleveland manage them

West Midlands police service mainly the West Midlands area, and the Authorities in West Midlands manage them

Warwickshire police service mainly the Warwickshire area, and the Authorities in Warwickshire manage them

West Yorkshire police service mainly the West Yorkshire area, and the Authorities in West Yorkshire manage them

 

I could carry on and list them all but I will not.

 

My point was that there is a list, it is provided in the 1972 Act which created the present Counties, these boundaries were not removed or altered by the 2000 0r 2003 acts, so the boundaries are as 1973.

 

As for York not being in North Yorkshire, it is a clear misunderstanding of Unitary Status, York is in North Yorkshire' it is North Yorks Fire and Police who service York, but they do have autonomy in areas such as Education and Social Services.

[+JeremyR]

I vote for Rutson's list too.

 

Using Unitary Authorities might be technically accurate but the list would be too unwieldy and in all likelihood, we'd be back here again in a few years, petitioning Groundspeak to update the list because half of them have changed.

[+forcesofnature]

Rutson's list for me.... We have to settle on something and that seems like a sensible list with counties that should be meaningful for most people in most situations.

 

Al.

[+Guanajuato]

... wipe Doncaster, Barnsley and Rotherham off the map ...

Isn't selective quotation great!

Having grown up in Sheffield, I know lots of people would be quite happy for that to happen.

 

Me? Bored? Never!

[+PopUpPirate]

 

So

 

Cheshire police service mainly the Cheshire area, and the Authorities in Cheshire manage them

Greater Manchester police service mainly the Greater Manchester area, and the Authorities in Greater Manchester manage them

Cleveland police service mainly the Cleveland area, and the Authorities in Cleveland manage them

West Midlands police service mainly the West Midlands area, and the Authorities in West Midlands manage them

Warwickshire police service mainly the Warwickshire area, and the Authorities in Warwickshire manage them

West Yorkshire police service mainly the West Yorkshire area, and the Authorities in West Yorkshire manage them

 

I could carry on and list them all but I will not.

 

 

Awwww! What about Lancashire police? Which authority manages them?