GPS-less Geocaching?

[+infiniteMPG]

I was just forwarded a news article about geocaching GC News that was published recently in an Arkansas newspaper. The story was nice about families geocaching together but the one line that flashed me back to some comments in here was :

It's possible to play the game without the help of a GPS unit by using online map services to locate the general area of the cache.

 

For me personally, I wouldn't even think of geocaching without my GPSr, but I do understand people have different opinions on this subject. Just figured since this was published and advertised that geocaching can be done withOUT a GPSr, someone told them this (and I'd imagine it was a geocacher).

 

Time to chime in

[+trainlove]

It's perfectly OK to go find geocaches using maps and a compass, or goat entrails or tarot cards..., but the sport of geocaching is searching for log books using a GPS (my definition), so do not ever HIDE a cache using only maps, that's against some rules somewhere that you agree to when you hide a cache.

[+infiniteMPG]

It's perfectly OK to go find geocaches using maps and a compass, or goat entrails or tarot cards..., but the sport of geocaching is searching for log books using a GPS (my definition),

Goat entrails???? Hehehehehe.... funny. Everyone knows it's sheep entrails... The definition of GPS came up before, too. Everyone has the same assumption that GPS means a GPS receiver. But stating a "Global Positioning System" can be any system that allows you to determine a global position. Stars. Maps. Google Earth. A compass. Landmarks. A GPSr. And since the GPSr often (due to heavy tree cover, clouds, rain, etc) does not do much except get you close and you have to call on your geosenses to complete the find, does it matter much what gets you close?

 

Oh yeah, Google Earth wouldn't be much help on a multi

Edited February 8, 2008 by infiniteMPG

[+rstefano52]

Just my two cents but when my son and his friend started caching the actually found SIX geocaches without a GPS! All they did was use Google maps/earth to get to the general location and then "geosense" from there. I was kind of PROUD of my son for doing that - I'm not sure that I could. In fact I tried it recently to get an FTF and I probably took longer than I should have to find a very simple cache. I didn't get the FTF but that wasn't because I didn't have my GPS. In addition, I had heard about someone who still hasn't used a GPS and I believe that they have thousands of finds! I don't know the specifics but I had heard about it somewhere. I think it's a real skill to be able to do that and "more power" to the person who can. Geocaching is what you make it - after all - it's a "game where YOU are the search engine"!

[+trainlove]

There is a person in Massachusetts who has found over 1000 caches without using a GPS (er, ah, I mean GPSr). But he does plot out the coordinates of, strictly, traditional caches and possibly solutions to puzzle caches on a topo map. I'm not sure if he uses his GPSr to get him to the parking area, I can't live without mine for that reason.

 

Then again there is another person in Massachusetts who has visited over 1000 caches and has NEVER ever logged them online. I'm not sure why!

[+infiniteMPG]

Great to hear storied like this. From one of the other treads here sounded like there was some pretty stiff opposition to GPSr-less caching but this all sounds positive (and in line with my views). I can see using any method other then GPSr would be tough to do a multi (except for 5 trips for a 5 stager). Also have a friend who's GPSr met an untimely end and he's thinking about an alternative method until he can afford a new one. To me that's more of a challenge then GPSing my way there so more power to 'em! And now that I think about it, we use Mapsource and plot out the caches so we can plot a hiking route before we head out so actually we only use out GPSr to get us closer then the maps anyway Higher res maps and the GPSr could stay in the car

[+tozainamboku]

I don't know what the people who find a geocache without a GPSr are doing - but it's not geocaching. From the FAQ

What is Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is an entertaining adventure game for gps users. Participating in a cache hunt is a good way to take advantage of the wonderful features and capability of a gps unit. The basic idea is to have individuals and organizations set up caches all over the world and share the locations of these caches on the internet. GPS users can then use the location coordinates to find the caches. Once found, a cache may provide the visitor with a wide variety of rewards. All the visitor is asked to do is if they get something they should try to leave something for the cache.

On the other hand if some non-geocacher wants to find my cache using some other method and log it online on the Geocaching.com website, I don't see any reason to delete their bogus log. The fact that they want to play an alternative game using the same game pieces I placed for geocachers to find doesn't degrade geocaching one bit. I am sometimes impressed when some orienteerer is able to use their map and compass skills to find my cache. I am less impressed by those who find urban caches by looking on Google maps to see where the cache is hidden. But it seems like it could be almost as much fun as geocaching especially if you don't own a GPS unit.

[magellan315]

I don't know what the people who find a geocache without a GPSr are doing - but it's not geocaching. From the FAQ

What is Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is an entertaining adventure game for gps users. Participating in a cache hunt is a good way to take advantage of the wonderful features and capability of a gps unit. The basic idea is to have individuals and organizations set up caches all over the world and share the locations of these caches on the internet. GPS users can then use the location coordinates to find the caches. Once found, a cache may provide the visitor with a wide variety of rewards. All the visitor is asked to do is if they get something they should try to leave something for the cache.

On the other hand if some non-geocacher wants to find my cache using some other method and log it online on the Geocaching.com website, I don't see any reason to delete their bogus log. The fact that they want to play an alternative game using the same game pieces I placed for geocachers to find doesn't degrade geocaching one bit. I am sometimes impressed when some orienteerer is able to use their map and compass skills to find my cache. I am less impressed by those who find urban caches by looking on Google maps to see where the cache is hidden. But it seems like it could be almost as much fun as geocaching especially if you don't own a GPS unit.

 

If they can find a Geocache with or without a GPS you are Geocaching, as the only goal is to find the cache. I have someone my area who only uses maps and compasses and has found 1800 caches. The way he does it is just as accurate as with a GPS. I had a cache that got washed away in a flood, he found it downstream and e-mailed me the coordinates based onhis maps and compass. Hos cordinates got me with 15' of the cache. Same level of accuracy as a GPS.

 

Maps and compasses require more practice and knowledge than just pushing some buttons on a GPS.

Edited February 8, 2008 by magellan315

[+trainlove]

On the other hand if some non-geocacher wants to find my cache using some other method and log it online on the Geocaching.com website, I don't see any reason to delete their bogus log. The fact that they want to play an alternative game using the same game pieces I placed for geocachers to find doesn't degrade geocaching one bit. I am sometimes impressed when some orienteerer is able to use their map and compass skills to find my cache. I am less impressed by those who find urban caches by looking on Google maps to see where the cache is hidden. But it seems like it could be almost as much fun as geocaching especially if you don't own a GPS unit.

 

If they find your cache and sign it's log book then it's not a "bogus log". How they found your cache does not matter in the least.

 

Anyone who finds your cache using some alternate method probably has to do two or more of three things:

Use geocaching.com to see the coordinates.

Use the maps on geocaching.com or elsewhere.

Log the find on geocaching.com.

[+Firespinner]

it's not a bogus log if someone finds your cache without a GPS. A bogus log according to most is a log claiming you found the cache when you in fact did not physically go out and find it.

 

I am new and I have 8 finds to my name. I dont' have a GPS unit. At first, I could not afford one. Now I'm waiting for a specific model to make it to a local store in my area. The fact that someone can't afford to buy a GPS should not mean that they can't enjoy the fun of geocaching. As long as they're following the rules (sign log, dont' move the cache,..etc) then it should be ok.

 

Most people don't own handheld units PRIOR to needing/ wanting one. And thus, most new people to geocaching aren't in possession of a GPS unit when they first find out about the game. I would think that they probably try a few first to decide whether they'll want to play long term. Most people wouldn't run right out and buy a $100+ tool for easier clam schucking until they've shucked a few clams by hand first to see if it's something they'll enjoy doing.

 

The only thing I do differently since I don't own a GPSr yet, is that if I hunt in the suspected area and don't find the cache, I don't log a DNF since I don't have a way to make certain that I'm in the correct area. I might log something still on the cache page, but I used the note function insted of the DNF frown face, and I explain that I didn't have a GPSr with me.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Firespinner

[+infiniteMPG]

it's not a bogus log if someone finds your cache without a GPS. A bogus log according to most is a log claiming you found the cache when you in fact did not physically go out and find it.

Sounds like it's pretty impossible to physically sign a log book in a cache and have it be deemed a 'bogus' log. Bogus logs are on the website, not in the cache.

 

I can see caching without a GPSr being more of a challenge but fun none the less. The main thing I can see you missing out on is multi-caches. Kind of tough to go find a stage, get new coords, run somewhere and plot them out, run back out and get the next stage... etc. And the one bonus you have is you don't have a GPSr who LIES to you like Mr. Garmin often does to me.... "Hey, the cache is right over here 15-feet.... yeah, right there.... WAIT.... I meant 28-feet back this other way.... yeah, right there.... NO WAIT... I mean 65-feet back this different way...." GRRRRRRR........ hehehehe

[+UncleJimbo]

Great to hear storied like this. From one of the other treads here sounded like there was some pretty stiff opposition to GPSr-less caching but this all sounds positive (and in line with my views). I can see using any method other then GPSr would be tough to do a multi (except for 5 trips for a 5 stager). Also have a friend who's GPSr met an untimely end and he's thinking about an alternative method until he can afford a new one. To me that's more of a challenge then GPSing my way there so more power to 'em! And now that I think about it, we use Mapsource and plot out the caches so we can plot a hiking route before we head out so actually we only use out GPSr to get us closer then the maps anyway Higher res maps and the GPSr could stay in the car

Personally, I don't have any opposition to people searching for and finding geocaches without using a GPSr (as others have pointed out, this is actually harder to do in most cases), but what I feel is that this GPSr-less game (without a GPSr) is not "geocaching" as it was originally developed. Just like playing Squash is not Racquetball. You use different tools, it is a different game, though very similar. Call it a semantic argument.

[+edscott]

..... The main thing I can see you missing out on is multi-caches. Kind of tough to go find a stage, get new coords, run somewhere and plot them out, run back out and get the next stage... etc. And the one bonus you have is you don't have a GPSr who LIES to you like Mr. Garmin often does to me.... "Hey, the cache is right over here 15-feet.... yeah, right there.... WAIT.... I meant 28-feet back this other way.... yeah, right there.... NO WAIT... I mean 65-feet back this different way...." GRRRRRRR........ hehehehe

 

Yes multis are much tougher to find GPS-less than normal caches. I've done a few in a single trip. I know that .001 x .001 is about a 5 x 6 foot square and can do some mental calculations and plot it on my map, but more often than not I just go home print a new map and go back for the next stage. Yes the satellite image gives a single point, but I still deal with the uncertainty of the GPS due to the GPS margin of error when the cache was placed.

[+edscott]

Personally, I don't have any opposition to people searching for and finding geocaches without using a GPSr (as others have pointed out, this is actually harder to do in most cases), but what I feel is that this GPSr-less game (without a GPSr) is not "geocaching" as it was originally developed. Just like playing Squash is not Racquetball. You use different tools, it is a different game, though very similar. Call it a semantic argument.

 

Yes and all those Little league, High School, and College baseball players aren't playing baseball 'cause they use aluminum bats.

Edited February 9, 2008 by edscott

[+edscott]

It's perfectly OK to go find geocaches using maps and a compass, or goat entrails or tarot cards..., but the sport of geocaching is searching for log books using a GPS (my definition), so do not ever HIDE a cache using only maps, that's against some rules somewhere that you agree to when you hide a cache.

 

Yes it's in the hiding guidelines. Fact is that coordinates from a GOOD satellite image area going to be better than what a GPS will give you under most conditions. I imagine the rule exists to weed out the incompetent map readers that might try to hide with only a map.

[CoyoteRed]

We found our first few without a GPS. There's never been any issue with it.

 

But, that does bring up a point. Since a lot of folks put away the GPS when they get within 50' or so, doesn't that then mean they only use the GPS to get close and then go GPS-less? Sounds like a lot more people than we realize are finding caches without GPSs.

[Rostropovich]

If I had the skills to find Geocaches this way I probably would try and do it and only use my GPSr if I could not find the cache.

[+Rattlebars]

Sometimes I'll preview the cache with the sat photos by clicking on the Yahoo map in the listing. This determines the gear I may need or not need or if it's in the middle of a Walmart parking lot (often I won't go there).

 

But my Meridian Color GPS I find to be a very reliable helper in the end.

[+OEnavigators]

There's a geocacher in our area that has over 800 finds and rarely uses a GPS. I had the privilege of accompanying him on several cache hunts and it was a lot of fun!

 

He uses a combination of: viewing satellite photos beforehand, Delorme software on his laptop to get in the area, and then tracking skills to find the cache.

 

The tracking part is what is the most fun and sometimes a little sad. Some caches have such a clear trail right to GZ That I'm amazed they don't get muggled. We did hunt a FTF together and he was able to see where the hider had walked and even impressions in the ground where the hider had stood for awhile revealing where the cache was hidden. It was impressive.

 

As a bonus, not using a GPS is a neat way to make some of the dull urban hides a lot more challenging.

 

Geocaching without a GPS is a more unorthodox way of finding caches but I believe it fits perfectly with the spirit of this hobby.

[+tokencollector]

Ultimately, the GPSr is a tool to get you to the right neighborhood. If you can get there another way, why not. I suspect that it makes the hunt a bit more challenging.

 

On older caches in the woods, when I get to the neighborhood, I usually hunt for signs of those who have come before me. I'm nowhere near as good as the person described above. But geocaching has taught me to pay attention to my surroundings in ways I hadn't done previously. And, when hiding a cache in the woods, I've become conscious of the subltle signs I might be leaving behind.

 

My son and I have found two caches by luck. In one case, it looked like some geocachers might be hunting on a greenway. We went back later and found the cache. In the second case, he said "That looks like a good place for a cache." It turns out that it was - but, someone else had beaten us to the spot. Identifying the cache became the new challenge in both cases.

[+edscott]

Ultimately, the GPSr is a tool to get you to the right neighborhood. If you can get there another way, why not. I suspect that it makes the hunt a bit more challenging.

 

On older caches in the woods, when I get to the neighborhood, I usually hunt for signs of those who have come before me. I'm nowhere near as good as the person described above. But geocaching has taught me to pay attention to my surroundings in ways I hadn't done previously. And, when hiding a cache in the woods, I've become conscious of the subltle signs I might be leaving behind.

........

 

Yes Tracking skills are very useful... now if you GPS users would go right to it instead of wandering all over the place it would make my life easier.

[+Team Cotati]

We found our first few without a GPS. There's never been any issue with it.

 

But, that does bring up a point. Since a lot of folks put away the GPS when they get within 50' or so, doesn't that then mean they only use the GPS to get close and then go GPS-less? Sounds like a lot more people than we realize are finding caches without GPSs.

 

You're right on that one. The Team has found 785 in that manner.

[+Firespinner]

it's not a bogus log if someone finds your cache without a GPS. A bogus log according to most is a log claiming you found the cache when you in fact did not physically go out and find it.

Sounds like it's pretty impossible to physically sign a log book in a cache and have it be deemed a 'bogus' log. Bogus logs are on the website, not in the cache.

 

I can see caching without a GPSr being more of a challenge but fun none the less. The main thing I can see you missing out on is multi-caches. Kind of tough to go find a stage, get new coords, run somewhere and plot them out, run back out and get the next stage... etc. And the one bonus you have is you don't have a GPSr who LIES to you like Mr. Garmin often does to me.... "Hey, the cache is right over here 15-feet.... yeah, right there.... WAIT.... I meant 28-feet back this other way.... yeah, right there.... NO WAIT... I mean 65-feet back this different way...." GRRRRRRR........ hehehehe

 

I guess I worded it wrong or ambiguous because you misunderstood what I was saying. I should worded it "A bogus log according to most is a log on the website claiming you found the cache when you in fact did not physically go out and find it and sign the paper log.

 

It is more of a challenge without a GPSr, but is definately still TONS of fun. I do miss out on the mulit-caches and caches which are in the woods and don't have lots of hints on the online comments/ log page.

[+infiniteMPG]

Yes and all those Little league, High School, and College baseball players aren't playing baseball 'cause they use aluminum bats.

LOL... much in the same way using a marine navigational GPS isn't valid to use to find a land based cache with....

[+infiniteMPG]

But, that does bring up a point. Since a lot of folks put away the GPS when they get within 50' or so, doesn't that then mean they only use the GPS to get close and then go GPS-less? Sounds like a lot more people than we realize are finding caches without GPSs.

For all practical purposed NO geocache was ever found WITH a GPSr, they are found by the geocachers! And yes, the GPSr (or map or stars or tarot cards or etc) only gets you close. That's why a cache will have 10 finds then a DNF and then 2 finds and then a DNF and then 5 finds and a DNF when everyone is using a GPSr.... because the GPS only got them close. The geocachers are what found the find "Where you are the search engine"....

[+infiniteMPG]

It is more of a challenge without a GPSr, but is definately still TONS of fun.

I think it's pretty much of a challenge signing the log when you forgot your pen a dozen miles away in the car....

 

I do miss out on the mulit-caches and caches which are in the woods and don't have lots of hints on the online comments/ log page.

Hmmm, a multi cache that can be done without a GPSr.... I see a new cache on the horizon.... hehehee

[+trainlove]

It is more of a challenge without a GPSr, but is definately still TONS of fun.

I think it's pretty much of a challenge signing the log when you forgot your pen a dozen miles away in the car....

 

I do miss out on the mulit-caches and caches which are in the woods and don't have lots of hints on the online comments/ log page.

Hmmm, a multi cache that can be done without a GPSr.... I see a new cache on the horizon.... hehehee

 

I'm planning on placing a 7 part multi. It will use a GPSr to get you to part 1. From there you can use a GPSr as I'll have coordinates in each micro, but you can also follow a hint if you want. i'll say something like 600 paces west along trail, right turn, 100 more paces on that trail, pine, or rock, or stump or felled tree...

I'll also say that my pace is almost exactly 20% short of a yard so people can calibrate themselves.

Each micro will not be deviously hidden so if you are n the ballpark you can find it even without your GPSr.

The multi will not necessarily be a simple loop, and will not have backtracking, and definately will not use any simple pattern of distances or directions. I.E. I would like people to find all the micros before the final.

[+edscott]

I'm planning on placing a 7 part multi. It will use a GPSr to get you to part 1. From there you can use a GPSr as I'll have coordinates in each micro, but you can also follow a hint if you want. i'll say something like 600 paces west along trail, right turn, 100 more paces on that trail, pine, or rock, or stump or felled tree...

I'll also say that my pace is almost exactly 20% short of a yard so people can calibrate themselves.

Each micro will not be deviously hidden so if you are n the ballpark you can find it even without your GPSr.

The multi will not necessarily be a simple loop, and will not have backtracking, and definately will not use any simple pattern of distances or directions. I.E. I would like people to find all the micros before the final.

 

I have one out that is similar except my hint is a map marking the spot of the next stage. Rocks and Hills Multi