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Stay On the Trail, I Mean It!


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The other day the greenway was having an open house for a project they would like to do. They had a display for the signs they would like to put on all their trailheads. “Stay On The Trail”* was one of the things on the sign.

 

Any outsider would think it means “Stay On The Trail” and it does. Naturally it’s not that simple.

 

The greenway here is like a lot of foundations. They do what they can with what they can beg steal and borrow. Sometimes what they can borrow is an easement through private property. Out of respect for the owners they ask that you stay on the trail in those places. When it comes to building a sign though you can’t say “Out of respect for our benefactors who have allowed us an easement across their private property please stay On The Trail in those areas. Please check out our map to see where all those places are and if you have any questions please call out survey department at 555-1234.” Not enough room. So it gets shortened to “Stay On The Trail”.

 

The real scoop though?

 

Stay on the Trail where we only have an easement on private property.

Exceptions. Anyplace where you are allowed to be that just happen to be 'off trail'.

 

Just add a cache to that and watch the controversy erupt.

 

*This sign did have an explanation of why but did not have room to show where the private property is located. My bet is that the sign will get shortened, but I could be wrong.

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The real scoop though?

 

Stay on the Trail where we only have an easement on private property.

Exceptions. Anyplace where you are allowed to be that just happen to be 'off trail'.

 

I would have to ask why they would put the "stay on trail" signs up at all in the areas where it is not necessary? Doesn't make much sense to me to spend money on a sign that they don't need or to put up an irrelevant sign.

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The real scoop though?

 

Stay on the Trail where we only have an easement on private property.

Exceptions. Anyplace where you are allowed to be that just happen to be 'off trail'.

 

I would have to ask why they would put the "stay on trail" signs up at all in the areas where it is not necessary? Doesn't make much sense to me to spend money on a sign that they don't need or to put up an irrelevant sign.

 

Tell me, does this mean that you give that self-serving tripe credence?

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The real scoop though?

 

Stay on the Trail where we only have an easement on private property.

Exceptions. Anyplace where you are allowed to be that just happen to be 'off trail'.

I would have to ask why they would put the "stay on trail" signs up at all in the areas where it is not necessary? Doesn't make much sense to me to spend money on a sign that they don't need or to put up an irrelevant sign.
Tell me, does this mean that you give that self-serving tripe credence?
Wow. You decided to blow right through the forum guidelines. Way to take trolling to a new level. Edited by sbell111
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The real scoop though?

 

Stay on the Trail where we only have an easement on private property.

Exceptions. Anyplace where you are allowed to be that just happen to be 'off trail'.

 

I would have to ask why they would put the "stay on trail" signs up at all in the areas where it is not necessary? Doesn't make much sense to me to spend money on a sign that they don't need or to put up an irrelevant sign.

 

I picture the trail as crossing through Private easements at several spots with a sign placed at each crossing.

Hiking the trail though it would appear as if they have just placed the signs at intervals to re-enforce the message.

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The real scoop though?

 

Stay on the Trail where we only have an easement on private property.

Exceptions. Anyplace where you are allowed to be that just happen to be 'off trail'.

 

I would have to ask why they would put the "stay on trail" signs up at all in the areas where it is not necessary? Doesn't make much sense to me to spend money on a sign that they don't need or to put up an irrelevant sign.

 

Tell me, does this mean that you give that self-serving tripe credence?

Until a few weeks ago I never looked at you as a troll. What put the bur under your saddle to trash your posting so badly?

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The real scoop though?

 

Stay on the Trail where we only have an easement on private property.

Exceptions. Anyplace where you are allowed to be that just happen to be 'off trail'.

I would have to ask why they would put the "stay on trail" signs up at all in the areas where it is not necessary? Doesn't make much sense to me to spend money on a sign that they don't need or to put up an irrelevant sign.
Tell me, does this mean that you give that self-serving tripe credence?
Wow. You decided to blow right through the forum guidelines. Way to take trolling to a new level.

Ditto

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seems that a cache shouldn't be in the "Stay on trail" area, and if one is placed in the "anyplace else you are allowed off the trail" area, a detailed description of exactly why it's there, and where you are allowed to walk should be on the cache page.

 

I'd imagine if both of those are done, there shouldn't be much controversy, and if one or both are not done, then the controversy is deserved.

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seems that a cache shouldn't be in the "Stay on trail" area, and if one is placed in the "anyplace else you are allowed off the trail" area, a detailed description of exactly why it's there, and where you are allowed to walk should be on the cache page.

 

I'd imagine if both of those are done, there shouldn't be much controversy, and if one or both are not done, then the controversy is deserved.

 

And we should keep in mind that some days some of us cache only with waypoints. Often when I don't plan on caching and don't have the PDA with me I still go after some caches using gps only. If this greenway is like some of the wooded trails I've been on then it is possible that people will be wandering off the public area following their gps.

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And we should keep in mind that some days some of us cache only with waypoints. Often when I don't plan on caching and don't have the PDA with me I still go after some caches using gps only. If this greenway is like some of the wooded trails I've been on then it is possible that people will be wandering off the public area following their gps.

 

Well in my understanding, the first part of the trail has signs that say "stay on the trail" and staying on the trail is what you should do at that point. If someone goes off the trail near a "stay on the trail" sign without being told it's ok, then they are a schmuck, and geocaching really won't change that.

 

The second part, where they are "allowed" to go off the trail would be the only part that should come into play.

 

If they read the cache description, they would know it's ok to leave the trail at this point, no controversy.

 

If they didn't read the cache description, they may not know that they can leave the trail, and may not find the cache. They would probably be annoyed with this, and come back to the cache page to log a note with their disapproval of a cache in an area that appears to be marked as "stay on the trail" but in coming to the page to log the note, they would likely have to read the cache description and see that they could have left the trail, again preventing controversy, since it wouldn't take much to realize the fault was with them for not reading the description.

 

this of course assumes a normal human, and ignores the idiot/schmuck factor... those people will always exist, and will cause problems pretty much anywhere they go regardless of what is done to prevent it.

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The real scoop though?

 

Stay on the Trail where we only have an easement on private property.

Exceptions. Anyplace where you are allowed to be that just happen to be 'off trail'.

 

Just add a cache to that and watch the controversy erupt.

 

*This sign did have an explanation of why but did not have room to show where the private property is located. My bet is that the sign will get shortened, but I could be wrong.

So just put a micro on the sign itself!

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And we should keep in mind that some days some of us cache only with waypoints. Often when I don't plan on caching and don't have the PDA with me I still go after some caches using gps only. If this greenway is like some of the wooded trails I've been on then it is possible that people will be wandering off the public area following their gps.

 

Well in my understanding, the first part of the trail has signs that say "stay on the trail" and staying on the trail is what you should do at that point. If someone goes off the trail near a "stay on the trail" sign without being told it's ok, then they are a schmuck, and geocaching really won't change that.

 

The second part, where they are "allowed" to go off the trail would be the only part that should come into play.

 

If they read the cache description, they would know it's ok to leave the trail at this point, no controversy.

 

If they didn't read the cache description, they may not know that they can leave the trail, and may not find the cache. They would probably be annoyed with this, and come back to the cache page to log a note with their disapproval of a cache in an area that appears to be marked as "stay on the trail" but in coming to the page to log the note, they would likely have to read the cache description and see that they could have left the trail, again preventing controversy, since it wouldn't take much to realize the fault was with them for not reading the description.

 

this of course assumes a normal human, and ignores the idiot/schmuck factor... those people will always exist, and will cause problems pretty much anywhere they go regardless of what is done to prevent it.

Great reply! Of course, there'll always be those who disobey the signs merely because they feel "entitled"!

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From a signmaker's perspective:

 

We're constantly urging clients to keep the message on the sign (if at all possible) to seven words or less, as a guideline for making a sign that can be read in one 'eyebite'. Naturally there's exceptions, but for wayfinding signs a short terse message is best for being read (and understood) at a glance.

 

As a signmaker, I'm half-convinced no one reads the signs we make after observing the human tendency to ignore messages on the signs which conflict with the readers' preconceived notion of what's OK to do at a particular place. Why else would folks speed in double-fine construction zones (placing highway workers at risk of injury or death), or wander off a trail specifically posted in an area as "STAY ON TRAIL" (as geocachers, placing the respect of their game at risk of injury or death)?

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If it falls into the same game as parking, and as the laws read here. 50 meters beyond the sign will be fine unless they place a sign every 100 meters, if they fail to do this then it is no legal, and they have no recourse (Canadian law) might apply in the USA.

 

M

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...I would have to ask why they would put the "stay on trail" signs up at all in the areas where it is not necessary? Doesn't make much sense to me to spend money on a sign that they don't need or to put up an irrelevant sign.

 

Money and long trails. A 2 mile trail passes through a lot of different land owners. However as a segment is has a start and end. Two signs is cheaper than the 6 or 8 that may be needed to only place them where they are needed.

 

Plus you have the catch 22 that they really can't authorize people to be on other peoples lands regardless of public or private. Rules change, emergences happen. Areas get posted for repair and preservation.

 

That would be my guess.

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So, are you gonna put one out? :ph34r:

I'm thinking about a power trail on a ridgeline hike where the greenway has marked a trail. Of course if they give me permission and Groundspeak says it's cache saturation does that mean that the guidelines are illegal?

 

Whoops sorry, that was some bleed over from another thread...

 

Yes.

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The counties and towns around here have several trails open to the public that pass through private properties. In speaking with the folks who worked to establish these trails I discovered that the sections marked with "Stay on the Trail" signs mean exactly that -- you do not have permission to leave the trail in that section.

 

I don't see how in these cases around here that it means anything else.

Edited by Ferreter5
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From a signmaker's perspective:

 

We're constantly urging clients to keep the message on the sign (if at all possible) to seven words or less, as a guideline for making a sign that can be read in one 'eyebite'. Naturally there's exceptions, but for wayfinding signs a short terse message is best for being read (and understood) at a glance.

 

As a signmaker, I'm half-convinced no one reads the signs we make after observing the human tendency to ignore messages on the signs which conflict with the readers' preconceived notion of what's OK to do at a particular place. Why else would folks speed in double-fine construction zones (placing highway workers at risk of injury or death), or wander off a trail specifically posted in an area as "STAY ON TRAIL" (as geocachers, placing the respect of their game at risk of injury or death)?

Refreshing.

 

I have encountered SO MANY billboards cluttered with small print that no one could remotely hope to read at 70MPH (H some of them you couldn't hope to read without BINOCULARS) that I seriously thought sign makers were totally ignorant of human senses. :D

 

Oh now I get it... those signs are put up so we have something to do in the morning rush hour traffic whilst sitting there increasing the global warming!

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The counties and towns around here have several trails open to the public that pass through private properties. In speaking with the folks who worked to establish these trails I discovered that the sections marked with "Stay on the Trail" signs mean exactly that -- you do not have permission to leave the trail in that section.

 

I don't see how in these cases around here that it means anything else.

 

Stick around. You have a lot to learn.

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The counties and towns around here have several trails open to the public that pass through private properties. In speaking with the folks who worked to establish these trails I discovered that the sections marked with "Stay on the Trail" signs mean exactly that -- you do not have permission to leave the trail in that section.

 

I don't see how in these cases around here that it means anything else.

 

Stick around. You have a lot to learn.

Can you please expand on that some? I'd like to know what you mean by that.

 

I've worked with several park directors around here and their "Stay on the Trail" signs along trail sections that pass through private property mean just what I said before, "You do not have permission to leave the trail in that section."

 

They and local hiking clubs have worked darn hard to get permission to establish hiking/biking trails through private property and it would be a shame if these fine trails get closed because people can't be respectful of the property owners who graciously allow these public trails to cross their property. Many of these trails also have POSTED signs long the edges of the these trail sections for reinforcement of the "Stay on the Trail" message.

Edited by Ferreter5
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The counties and towns around here have several trails open to the public that pass through private properties. In speaking with the folks who worked to establish these trails I discovered that the sections marked with "Stay on the Trail" signs mean exactly that -- you do not have permission to leave the trail in that section.

 

I don't see how in these cases around here that it means anything else.

 

Stick around. You have a lot to learn.

Can you please expand on that some? I'd like to know what you mean by that.

 

I've worked with several park directors around here and their "Stay on the Trail" signs along trail sections that pass through private property mean just what I said before, "You do not have permission to leave the trail in that section."

 

They and local hiking clubs have worked darn hard to get permission to establish hiking/biking trails through private property and it would be a shame if these fine trails get closed because people can't be respectful of the property owners who graciously allow these public trails to cross their property. Many of these trails also have POSTED signs long the edges of the these trail sections for reinforcement of the "Stay on the Trail" message.

Not to put words in his mouth, but I think he might mean: "stick around and you'll see a zillion excuses put forth for ignoring the signs as seems to be somewhat common among geocachers, especially if certain forum posts are any indication of the lengths to which people will go to get a cache."

 

In fact, it would be a crying shame to see all that work go down in flames.

 

If forum posts are any indication of the true mores of geocachers, (even if only a VERY SMALL minority), the placing of a geocache along your trail will probably eventually result in closure of the trail.

Edited by Confucius' Cat
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Not to put words in his mouth, but I think he might mean: "stick around and you'll see a zillion excuses put forth for ignoring the signs as seems to be somewhat common among geocachers, especially if certain forum posts are any indication of the lengths to which people will go to get a cache."

Thanks for the insight, Confucius' Cat. Rather disappointing to hear, but thanks!

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The counties and towns around here have several trails open to the public that pass through private properties. In speaking with the folks who worked to establish these trails I discovered that the sections marked with "Stay on the Trail" signs mean exactly that -- you do not have permission to leave the trail in that section.

 

I don't see how in these cases around here that it means anything else.

 

The trail can't give you permission to leave the trail as it's not theirs to give. However can those property owners give you permission to be on that property? If they can, and do. The trail property/easement line is just like all the other property lines you cross daily without thinking about and which you have permission to do so.

 

In a strange town, I'm not going to know anything more than Stay on the Trail Fine. In my town, I do know where you can fish, and be, even if the Trail Signs say "Stay on the Trail". I also know the limitations of the Rule and why it's coming about.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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we came through to find a cache that was on an easement. the homeowner knew that folks would come down the stairs and poke around but never got out in time to ask why. finally, she "caught" us, and we explained geocaching to her. she may have made a name for herself and tried a little from the excitement on her face.

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we came through to find a cache that was on an easement. the homeowner knew that folks would come down the stairs and poke around but never got out in time to ask why. finally, she "caught" us, and we explained geocaching to her. she may have made a name for herself and tried a little from the excitement on her face.

 

Did I miss something? Or is it normal to start a point in the middle of a thought that no one knows about?

 

We? Came through...............what where why?

 

Tried a little?

 

Wow!!

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For the benefit of others who have trouble working out what this thread is about (perhaps I'm the only one, but I doubt it!): the Dictionary Of Difficult Words helps out on "easement";

 

easement

n. Law, right over another's land.

 

Greenway

A Greenway is a network of largely off-highway routes connecting people to facilities and open spaces in and around towns, cities and the countryside. They are for shared use by people of all abilities on foot, bike or horseback, for commuting, play or leisure. Greenways link to other networks for non-motorised users - such as the National Cycle Network, towpaths beside inland waterways, National Trails and other rights of way.

 

You may now continue... :lol:

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The trail can't give you permission to leave the trail as it's not theirs to give.

I don't understand this at all. I've never had a conversation with a trail. Maybe if I was an excellent tracker or something the dirt might talk to me ... And thus spake Lord Bowler, "I can't help it. Dirt talks to me, Brisco," from the television show Brisco County Jr.

 

However can those property owners give you permission to be on that property?

Yes it's their property.

 

In my town, I do know where you can fish, and be, even if the Trail Signs say "Stay on the Trail".

I'm wondering why there are "Stay on the Trail" signs in those sections of the trail.

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clarification:A friend and I were caching and one was on an easement.... we explained geocaching to the homeowner who may take up caching from our explanation.

That's what I understood from your other post. I suspect that everyone else 'got it', also.
Yep... everyone except Team Cotati. ; )
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...I'm wondering why there are "Stay on the Trail" signs in those sections of the trail.

 

Sorry if that wasn't clear in the OP. There are no Stay on the Trail Signs. They are proposed. The larger explanation on the signs that may be pared off for the sake of simplicity is to cover where they have easmetns on private property for their trail. Not the parts of the trail that are adjoining property that allows recreational activities.

 

However they are also proposing a sign at the trail ends. Not at the property boundaries. At least that's the case at the meeting where I saw the proposed signs.

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Sorry if that wasn't clear in the OP. There are no Stay on the Trail Signs. They are proposed. The larger explanation on the signs that may be pared off for the sake of simplicity is to cover where they have easmetns on private property for their trail. Not the parts of the trail that are adjoining property that allows recreational activities.

 

However they are also proposing a sign at the trail ends. Not at the property boundaries. At least that's the case at the meeting where I saw the proposed signs.

Ahhh, okay. Thanks for clarifying that! :)

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