The Real Secret, There Is No Secret

[+Renegade Knight]

We live in this world. We have a right to be in it. To live, work and play. Our very existence here proves it. Even if it’s banned we do it anyway. It’s fundamental to being human.

 

Everybody understands this and allows it. Couples don’t have to ask permission to talk instead of eat when they eat out. A jogger doesn’t ask for permission to jog on a trail used by all. Kids just go and get their ball off of someone’s front lawn. Adequate permission already exists for these activities. These are all part of the legacy we all bought into when we grew up in the world.

 

Caching is nothing more than an activity that we can do in the world. Any place that already allows hiking, fishing, hunting, walking and other recreational activities that encompass the simple things that comprise caching already allow caching. It’s as simple as that. Adequate permission already exists passed down from generation to generation because that’s the way it’s always been.

 

In conversation none of these people would be ashamed to say they had a good conversation over dinner, got their ball, jogged on a trail or placed cache. There is no secret, it’s merely daily life.

[+TeamGumbo]

I'm a skateboarder...tell me 'bout it.

[+palmetto]

I live in a world where one of the managers of public property wants me to pull a permit to ride my bike on that land. I can walk there without a permit, but not bike. Oh, yes, I need a permit for a geocache too.

 

I mostly concur with the notion that geocaching is a benign recreational activity and shouldn't need to be regulated on public lands opened to other recreational pursuits. That doesn't make it true though - "it" being a lack of regulation. Where it exists, there's nothing to do but deal with it.

Edited February 1, 2008 by palmetto

[+ReadyOrNot]

We live in this world. We have a right to be in it. To live, work and play. Our very existence here proves it. Even if it’s banned we do it anyway. It’s fundamental to being human.

 

Everybody understands this and allows it. Couples don’t have to ask permission to talk instead of eat when they eat out. A jogger doesn’t ask for permission to jog on a trail used by all. Kids just go and get their ball off of someone’s front lawn. Adequate permission already exists for these activities. These are all part of the legacy we all bought into when we grew up in the world.

 

Caching is nothing more than an activity that we can do in the world. Any place that already allows hiking, fishing, hunting, walking and other recreational activities that encompass the simple things that comprise caching already allow caching. It’s as simple as that. Adequate permission already exists passed down from generation to generation because that’s the way it’s always been.

 

In conversation none of these people would be ashamed to say they had a good conversation over dinner, got their ball, jogged on a trail or placed cache. There is no secret, it’s merely daily life.

 

I've never agreed more. Amen!

[+Lightning Jeff]

Caching is nothing more than an activity that we can do in the world. Any place that already allows hiking, fishing, hunting, walking and other recreational activities that encompass the simple things that comprise caching already allow caching. It’s as simple as that. Adequate permission already exists passed down from generation to generation because that’s the way it’s always been.

Plenty of logical fallacies here. Just because you can hike, fish, hunt, walk or engage in other recreational activities in a particular location certainly does not mean that you can place a cache there. It's not as simple as that. You can do all of those things in national parks (except hunt), but that doesn't mean you can blithely assume you have "permission ... passed down from generation to generation" to place a cache there. I'm sure you know that. I guess I respond (take the bait?) only to point out that I think this attitude, if acted upon, is very dangerous to the longevity of our activity.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Caching is nothing more than an activity that we can do in the world. Any place that already allows hiking, fishing, hunting, walking and other recreational activities that encompass the simple things that comprise caching already allow caching. It’s as simple as that. Adequate permission already exists passed down from generation to generation because that’s the way it’s always been.

Plenty of logical fallacies here. Just because you can hike, fish, hunt, walk or engage in other recreational activities in a particular location certainly does not mean that you can place a cache there. It's not as simple as that. You can do all of those things in national parks (except hunt), but that doesn't mean you can blithely assume you have "permission ... passed down from generation to generation" to place a cache there. I'm sure you know that. I guess I respond (take the bait?) only to point out that I think this attitude, if acted upon, is very dangerous to the longevity of our activity.

 

I agree with this!! Also, there are plenty of parks and public lands which ban an activity or another for only reasons they know...it's not a right to use these lands, it's a privelege! You can be asked not to come back, you can be booted from the property....this means it's not your land to do with as you please!

 

Hey Lightning....found one of your pathtags while in Vegas last week...cool!!

[+CYBret]

Yet I cannot fish or hunt without a license (read "permission").

 

And I'm not really sure how having a conversation while dining out relates. If my conversation is too loud or contains the wrong words the owners can ask me to leave. Also, when I leave the restaurant I take my conversation with me.

 

I think I see what you're getting at...I just don't think you got there.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

Yet I cannot fish or hunt without a license (read "permission").

 

You can if you own or lease the land you're hunting or fishing on.

[+sbell111]

Caching is nothing more than an activity that we can do in the world. Any place that already allows hiking, fishing, hunting, walking and other recreational activities that encompass the simple things that comprise caching already allow caching. It’s as simple as that. Adequate permission already exists passed down from generation to generation because that’s the way it’s always been.

Plenty of logical fallacies here. Just because you can hike, fish, hunt, walk or engage in other recreational activities in a particular location certainly does not mean that you can place a cache there. It's not as simple as that. You can do all of those things in national parks (except hunt), but that doesn't mean you can blithely assume you have "permission ... passed down from generation to generation" to place a cache there. I'm sure you know that. I guess I respond (take the bait?) only to point out that I think this attitude, if acted upon, is very dangerous to the longevity of our activity.

I agree with this!! Also, there are plenty of parks and public lands which ban an activity or another for only reasons they know...it's not a right to use these lands, it's a privelege! You can be asked not to come back, you can be booted from the property....this means it's not your land to do with as you please!

 

Hey Lightning....found one of your pathtags while in Vegas last week...cool!!

As near as I can tell, there's nothing inRK's post that suggests that you wouldn't need permission if the parks have a policy that requires it (as the NPS does).

[+Team Cotati]

Just can't leave it alone, can we?

[+Prime Suspect]

We live in this world. We have a right to be in it. To live, work and play. Our very existence here proves it. Even if it’s banned we do it anyway. It’s fundamental to being human.

 

Everybody understands this and allows it. Couples don’t have to ask permission to talk instead of eat when they eat out. A jogger doesn’t ask for permission to jog on a trail used by all. Kids just go and get their ball off of someone’s front lawn. Adequate permission already exists for these activities. These are all part of the legacy we all bought into when we grew up in the world.

 

Caching is nothing more than an activity that we can do in the world. Any place that already allows hiking, fishing, hunting, walking and other recreational activities that encompass the simple things that comprise caching already allow caching. It’s as simple as that. Adequate permission already exists passed down from generation to generation because that’s the way it’s always been.

 

In conversation none of these people would be ashamed to say they had a good conversation over dinner, got their ball, jogged on a trail or placed cache. There is no secret, it’s merely daily life.

I don't recall giving you permission to post this.

[+trooperdjb]

Yet I cannot fish or hunt without a license (read "permission").

 

You can if you own or lease the land you're hunting or fishing on.

 

Not sure about Indiana but in Wisconsin you need a license to hunt or fish no matter if you own the land or not except for nuisance species like squirrels or rabbits and a farmer with a permit (another special license) white tail deer.

[+ReadyOrNot]

Yet I cannot fish or hunt without a license (read "permission").

 

And I'm not really sure how having a conversation while dining out relates. If my conversation is too loud or contains the wrong words the owners can ask me to leave. Also, when I leave the restaurant I take my conversation with me.

 

I think I see what you're getting at...I just don't think you got there.

 

A restaurant is privately owned... In "theory", we own public land, not the government. In reality, the government seems to think they own everything and can dictate everything to us..

[+Renegade Knight]

I live in a world where one of the managers of public property wants me to pull a permit to ride my bike on that land. I can walk there without a permit, but not bike. Oh, yes, I need a permit for a geocache too.

 

I mostly concur with the notion that geocaching is a benign recreational activity and shouldn't need to be regulated on public lands opened to other recreational pursuits. That doesn't make it true though - "it" being a lack of regulation. Where it exists, there's nothing to do but deal with it.

Where regulation exists, follow it. The only thing to do about it is comply and ask why the heck they have dumb regulations. Don't miss a chance to fix them when you can.

 

Locally our University is working with the towns to get a building rehabilitated. It's going to make a 10% dent in my property tax. About the time I moved here they banned concerts in it and renamed it to honor someone other than the students who paid for it. Now they want big money to to rebuild what they should have been maintaining all along. I emailed the Mayor my terms. Rename it back as an act of good will and allow concerts again. I'll vote yes. I'm only one vote. The mayor did listen though nothing will happen until after the levy goes down in flames.

 

Sooner or later someone will want some money for lands where you need a permit that you don't think you should need. The tougher fight they think they will have the better your odds.

[+Renegade Knight]

...I don't recall giving you permission to post this.

 

I'm sorry for not asking. It's just that the other 20,000 posts you didn't say anything about made me think this one would be OK as well.

[4wheelin_fool]

The real secret is that "permission" is nothing but forced communication. There are areas which are sensitive to any foot traffic and to which cachers may be unaware of. Permission is actually communicating with the people that manage the land to know which places to stay away from.

 

If there is an issue with a cache, the proper way to deal with it is to communicate with the cacher to have it modified somehow, is it not? Permission is a two edged sword that the land managers can use also. Would you want them to just remove and throw away caches without a word or a post to the cache page, when the problem could be solved easily, such as moving the cache 100' feet or so? I think that most cache owners would want some kind of permission....

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

Yet I cannot fish or hunt without a license (read "permission").

 

You can if you own or lease the land you're hunting or fishing on.

 

Not sure about Indiana but in Wisconsin you need a license to hunt or fish no matter if you own the land or not except for nuisance species like squirrels or rabbits and a farmer with a permit (another special license) white tail deer.

 

Not here. Still have to obey season and bag limits but no license required. In the case of deer you just write the required info on a piece of paper and attach it to the deer before transporting it to a check station.

[cowcreekgeeks]

A restaurant is privately owned... In "theory", we own public land, not the government. In reality, the government seems to think they own everything and can dictate everything to us..

 

Counterpoint. In reality, the government DOES own the land and if they want, they can take ours! That darned "imminent domain" law...sheesh. I suggest we all take our elected officials geocaching. They may just join in on the fun!

[+HopsMaltYeast]

Flawed logic front to back.

 

I can poop in my bathroom. I cannot poop in the aisle of a supermarket.

 

I can hike on the Appalachian Trail, but I cannot cross switchbacks or bushwhack with impunity on sensitive lands (like the AT).

 

I can drag race on a sanctioned track. I cannot drag race on Main Street.

 

I can fish with a license where states permit fishing. I cannot fish in protected areas.

 

I can drive a motorboat. I cannot drive a motorboat across delicate salt flats and ruin the eco-system.

 

I can hike. I cannot walk over delicate and protected sand dunes and cause damage that will take decades for nature to repair.

 

I can hunt where it is not prohibited. I cannot take my M1 Garande and shoot squirrels in my backyard.

 

I can GeoCache where is it s not prohibited. I cannot place a GeoCache in ecological, environmental or archeological sensitive areas.

 

It ain’t rocket science. It is just GeoCommonSense.

[+Renegade Knight]

Yet I cannot fish or hunt without a license (read "permission").

 

And I'm not really sure how having a conversation while dining out relates. If my conversation is too loud or contains the wrong words the owners can ask me to leave. Also, when I leave the restaurant I take my conversation with me.

 

I think I see what you're getting at...I just don't think you got there.

 

Regulations exist that say you need a license to hunt and fish. So you get one. You don't yet need a license to kill noxious weeds.

 

The dining example I used because it is private land. You essentially rent the space for the duration of the meal. But there is a dynamic that can extend the permission and keep you from being herded out the door. Be a couple of drunk doofies, your check will hit the table about the same time as your meal. Be a nice looking couple you actually add to the atmosphere of the resteraunt and you will be given a lot more time. The same principal applies to a room. Have a cache event you can get a room. If enough show up and order you are welcome back. Not enough and they will be booked next time you call. There is a dynamic that plays out that modifies your rented table. In society at large there are dynamics that tell you when it's time to get permission.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Rights are fairly illusory. It's easy to think that we have the right to do certain things, but in reality, we have no such rights. It may just be that people have the responsibility to allow us our freedoms, or people have the responsibility to respect our property, which is complimentary to saying that we have rights to those things, but it's not exactly the same thing.

 

The fact is that we have no right to geocache, and property owners have no right to tell us not to. A better way to look at this is that we have the responsibility to ask for permission, and they have the responsibility to let us be ourselves (which sometimes conflicts with their responsibility to manage their resources). When people don't follow this principle, land owners get ticked-off at geocachers for trampling their plants and leaving stuff behind, and geocachers get stiffed by land managers who ban all geocaching simply because they, themselves, don't know what we see in the sport (therefore it must not be worth supporting, they think).

 

Face it; if you live your life not actively seeking to live responsibly, then I'm not likely to respect your rights. While you can only do just so much to fight for your rights, you can always do your part to live responsibly.

[+CYBret]

 

Regulations exist that say you need a license to hunt and fish. So you get one. You don't yet need a license to kill noxious weeds.

 

 

So what are you saying? Geocaching should be afforded the same rights as hunting and fishing but without the regulations of hunting and fishing? Are you comparing geocaching with hunting and fishing or contrasting it?

 

Where did the weeds come from?

 

This is getting harder to follow. How about you leave the illustrations and just spit out your thesis statement?

[+Confucius' Cat]

Kids just go and get their ball off of someone’s front lawn.

And mean old Miss Bizzybiddy still grabs them up and puts them in her stew pot just like back in the good ol' days....YUM!

[+snowfrog]

Everybody understands this and allows it. Couples don’t have to ask permission to talk instead of eat when they eat out. A jogger doesn’t ask for permission to jog on a trail used by all. Kids just go and get their ball off of someone’s front lawn. Adequate permission already exists for these activities. These are all part of the legacy we all bought into when we grew up in the world.

 

 

Don't think I would apply this logic globally, .......we didn't buy into it, it was purchased and payments are still being made , by those who serve.

Edited February 2, 2008 by snowfrog

[+Renegade Knight]

Rights are fairly illusory. It's easy to think that we have the right to do certain things,...

 

Stop there. We have the freedom to do certain things. If we had the right it would get very complicated. Can you imagine a world where I had the right to place a cache in your front yard? I'd much rather have the freedom to cache where it's appropriate and call it good. Your front yard is safe then.

 

Freedom comes with the responsibility to allow others their freedom as well.

Edited February 2, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Rattlebars]

Yet I cannot fish or hunt without a license (read "permission").

 

You can if you own or lease the land you're hunting or fishing on.

 

NOT! Ask the Game Warden who arrests you about hunting or fishing on your own land without a "permit" or poaching durng the off-season.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

Yet I cannot fish or hunt without a license (read "permission").

 

You can if you own or lease the land you're hunting or fishing on.

 

NOT! Ask the Game Warden who arrests you about hunting or fishing on your own land without a "permit" or poaching durng the off-season.

 

You are incorrect. Read the part where it says "License Exemptions"

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/huntguide1/...generalinfo.pdf

 

License Exemptions

You must have and carry a valid license and applicable state stamp privileges to hunt any wild animal, with exceptions as follows:

Residents or non-residents participating in a field trial sanctioned by the DNR director.

 

Landowners, or lessees of farmland who farm that land and are residents of Indiana, their spouses and children living with them, while hunting, fishing, or trapping on the land they own or lease. This license exemption does not apply to land owned by a business, corporation or partnership unless the shareholders, partners, members or owners are comprised solely of the mem-bers of an immediate family and farm that land. Farmland means agricultural land that is devoted or best adaptable for the production of crops, fruits, timber, or the raising of livestock; or is assessed as agricultural

land for property tax purposes.

 

Residents of Indiana engaged in full-time military service and who are carrying their leave orders and a valid Indiana driver’s license or Indiana voter registration card.

Non-resident military personnel on active duty and stationed within Indiana may hunt or fish with a resident license.

 

A non-resident younger than 18 years old may hunt, trap or fish with a resident license if a parent, grandparent or legal guardian is a resident.

 

An individual who is less than 13 years old; does not possess a bow or firearm; and is accompanied

by an individual who is at least 18 years of age and holds a valid license.

 

Youth participating in free youth hunting weekends.

____________________________________________________-

 

So yes, I can indeed hunt on my farm without a license of any kind, and I would not be afraid to invite the game warden along as well.

I live and hunt here in Indiana, I think I know my own states hunting laws.

 

Edit to add, why bring up poaching during the off season? Didn't you read my post? I stated quite clearly that seasons and bag limits must still be followed.

Edited February 2, 2008 by Cpt.Blackbeard

[+Rattlebars]

Well, Captain.

 

This here is an INTERNATIONAL board and INTERNATIONAL sport. Not just Indiana. I've bailed out my in laws often enough to know the difference.

 

I really don't want to argue the point since there are at least 50 states and thousands of other jurisdictions. It's a big planet. Anyway, I don't recall the phrase "farm that land" being in your OP but it appears now so we're even on the "off-season" thing (which is germaine to the general discussion).

 

But, this is friendly argument if you please (especially since I figure you're heavily armed! )

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

Well, Captain.

 

This here is an INTERNATIONAL board and INTERNATIONAL sport. Not just Indiana. I've bailed out my in laws often enough to know the difference.

 

I really don't want to argue the point since there are at least 50 states and thousands of other jurisdictions. It's a big planet. Anyway, I don't recall the phrase "farm that land" being in your OP but it appears now so we're even on the "off-season" thing (which is germaine to the general discussion).

 

But, this is friendly argument if you please (especially since I figure you're heavily armed! )

 

No arguement, although I left a few details out of my first post I knew Cybret would understand it, and I did specify Indiana in my second post.

We can call it even now.

[+sbell111]

Flawed logic front to back.

 

I can poop in my bathroom. I cannot poop in the aisle of a supermarket.

 

I can hike on the Appalachian Trail, but I cannot cross switchbacks or bushwhack with impunity on sensitive lands (like the AT).

 

I can drag race on a sanctioned track. I cannot drag race on Main Street.

 

I can fish with a license where states permit fishing. I cannot fish in protected areas.

 

I can drive a motorboat. I cannot drive a motorboat across delicate salt flats and ruin the eco-system.

 

I can hike. I cannot walk over delicate and protected sand dunes and cause damage that will take decades for nature to repair.

 

I can hunt where it is not prohibited. I cannot take my M1 Garande and shoot squirrels in my backyard.

 

I can GeoCache where is it s not prohibited. I cannot place a GeoCache in ecological, environmental or archeological sensitive areas.

 

It ain’t rocket science. It is just GeoCommonSense.

Your examples, with the possible exception of the supermarket pooping (ewww), would be covered by RK's statements. RK has been pretty clear that one should follow regulations.

 

<edited to add that I just noticed that in the other thread you completely agreed with RK's position regarding permission.>

Edited February 2, 2008 by sbell111

[+briansnat]

Flawed logic front to back.

 

I can poop in my bathroom. I cannot poop in the aisle of a supermarket.

 

I can hike on the Appalachian Trail, but I cannot cross switchbacks or bushwhack with impunity on sensitive lands (like the AT).

 

I can drag race on a sanctioned track. I cannot drag race on Main Street.

 

I can fish with a license where states permit fishing. I cannot fish in protected areas.

 

I can drive a motorboat. I cannot drive a motorboat across delicate salt flats and ruin the eco-system.

 

I can hike. I cannot walk over delicate and protected sand dunes and cause damage that will take decades for nature to repair.

 

I can hunt where it is not prohibited. I cannot take my M1 Garande and shoot squirrels in my backyard.

 

I can GeoCache where is it s not prohibited. I cannot place a GeoCache in ecological, environmental or archeological sensitive areas.

 

It ain’t rocket science. It is just GeoCommonSense.

 

Your argument is flawed. Your examples are examples of breaking laws, rules and regulations. I don't think RK's original post supported breaking existing rules or regulations.

 

What I took his post to mean is that in absence of existing geocaching regulations or policies, geocachers have as much a right to use parks as any other users and no more need to ask permission than

other users.

[+Renegade Knight]

I cannot poop in the aisle of a supermarket.

 

You haven't really shown anything new in your larger posts. You show extremes of Normal things you need no special permission contrasted with things you should seek permission to do if that's what floats your boat. It a lot of cases you don't even need permission if the circumstances are right.

 

Take your supermarket example. If you walk into a robbery there is a chance that you or someone else will void themselves. Nobody is going to care one whit. Most times, it's a silly thing to do.

 

You wouldn't think breaking into a ranger station would get you a thumbs up from a ranger. However I did just that and the ranger who stopped in told us we were doing exactly what we should be doing. Can you picture the circumstances? Most times it would get your butt carted off.

 

Thankfully caching falls far short of the impacts hat you used in your posts in your extreme examples. Instead BrianSnat summed it up pretty good n his post.

Edited February 2, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+The Jester]

I can poop in my bathroom. I cannot poop in the aisle of a supermarket.

Wear Depends and you can do it anywhere you want!

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Ew.

[+Renegade Knight]

Caching is nothing more than an activity that we can do in the world. Any place that already allows hiking, fishing, hunting, walking and other recreational activities that encompass the simple things that comprise caching already allow caching. It’s as simple as that. Adequate permission already exists passed down from generation to generation because that’s the way it’s always been.

Plenty of logical fallacies here. Just because you can hike, fish, hunt, walk or engage in other recreational activities in a particular location certainly does not mean that you can place a cache there. It's not as simple as that. You can do all of those things in national parks (except hunt), but that doesn't mean you can blithely assume you have "permission ... passed down from generation to generation" to place a cache there. I'm sure you know that. I guess I respond (take the bait?) only to point out that I think this attitude, if acted upon, is very dangerous to the longevity of our activity.

 

In your example of a National Park they have a policy on caching. Since they have a policy you follow it. They also have a policy on Hunting and Fishing. You follow it. You have to get a permit for back country hiking. That's a policy, you follow it. Tribal members may have different rights because of treaties. If they didn't have a policy specific to caching you still have to follow all the other policies when caching.

 

Here is a good read on a Hike Across Craters of the Moon that involved Caches. (Not geocaches but caches allowing the recreational use of NPS lands none the less).

[+Lightning Jeff]

Caching is nothing more than an activity that we can do in the world. Any place that already allows hiking, fishing, hunting, walking and other recreational activities that encompass the simple things that comprise caching already allow caching. It’s as simple as that. Adequate permission already exists passed down from generation to generation because that’s the way it’s always been.

Plenty of logical fallacies here. Just because you can hike, fish, hunt, walk or engage in other recreational activities in a particular location certainly does not mean that you can place a cache there. It's not as simple as that. You can do all of those things in national parks (except hunt), but that doesn't mean you can blithely assume you have "permission ... passed down from generation to generation" to place a cache there. I'm sure you know that. I guess I respond (take the bait?) only to point out that I think this attitude, if acted upon, is very dangerous to the longevity of our activity.

 

In your example of a National Park they have a policy on caching. Since they have a policy you follow it. They also have a policy on Hunting and Fishing. You follow it. You have to get a permit for back country hiking. That's a policy, you follow it. Tribal members may have different rights because of treaties. If they didn't have a policy specific to caching you still have to follow all the other policies when caching.

Yeah. But nothing in your original post says anything about following policies that say exactly the opposite of your assertions about "permission." Rather, your post equates permission to do X with permission to do Y.

Any place that already allows hiking, fishing, hunting, walking and other recreational activities that encompass the simple things that comprise caching already allow caching.

That is demonstrably not true, as has already been pointed out.

[+Renegade Knight]

....Yeah. But nothing in your original post says anything about following policies that say exactly the opposite of your assertions about "permission." Rather, your post equates permission to do X with permission to do Y....

 

There is only so much space to write things in the forums. In writing about when you can cache because of all the other things allowed, it clutters the post o point out what should be obvious about following policies and laws.

 

I know some are going to think I just condoned speeding in a school zone to be FTF because I didn't say they shouldn't. So let me say it here. Follow all policies and laws. Pay attention so you don't cause your finders to do stupid things. (another topic in itself). Do your part to ensure that geocacing is a casual use of publicly accessible lands and nothing more.

[+sbell111]

You forgot to mention CITO. Someone is about to call you a litterbug.

[+proimion]

Basically, Renegade Knight, it seems that you are arguing that we don't need permission to place a cache on public property where no regulation expressly forbids or restricts a cache, as long as we don't violate a regulation in the course of placing a cache. With your analogy of a couple eating in a restaurant, you also seem to extend this concept to any place of public accommodation, even if privately owned.

 

Let's flip to the other side of that coin. Where there isn't a regulation against taking or destroying a geocache on public property, I can destroy or take any geocache I don't like. Would you really like such a free-for-all?

 

My fear is that geocachers are getting lazy and not communicating with land managers like they should, and that this will result one day in geocaching being banned from the best places.

[+Stargazer22]

I believe that it is not very useful to compare geocaching with other activities, and say that because some other activity is allowed somewhere that geocaching is, too.

Caching is a fairly unique activity in that something is left behind to reside over a longer course of time and a variety of unknown folks are invited to go there and look for it.

I can't think of another activity that closely parallels geocaching enough to make that kind of a comparison.

It will always be apples to oranges, or oranges to grapefruits, or peaches to pears.

For some reason, I feel like having a fruit salad for lunch now.

 

I think we need to treat geocaching like geocaching. My personal preference is to ask my local reviewer for advice on seeking permission. He has been very helpful to me and is well versed on his area that he reviews. He already knows most of the places that require explicit permission or a permit, and gives good advice for other areas. Since he's going to be the one that eventually either approves the cache listing or not, he already knows about my permission activities before I even submit a cache for review.

I figure he's been at this a lot longer than my 1 year of caching and he already has some good relationships with the land managers in our area.

[+Renegade Knight]

....Let's flip to the other side of that coin. Where there isn't a regulation against taking or destroying a geocache on public property, I can destroy or take any geocache I don't like. Would you really like such a free-for-all?...

 

A fair question and one debated often and with a lot of passion.

 

Geocaches are personal propety subject to all the laws that already govern personal property. In other words it's against the law to steal them, destroy them, etc. just like other personal property. Also just like other personal property the police have to weigh the bigger picture when enforcing the law. Someone steals a cache and you report it, not much is going to happen. It would take your own legwork to find the person and then your own money to hire an attorney to force the system to punish this person.

 

I live with the free for all sitation that you mention. We have a local who would be a power cacher in their own right. However instead of regular caching they do exactly what you have mentioned.

 

In spite of this, I don't think we need any special "geocache protection" laws.

 

When you really think about it. The "nothing special" that caches are in the official world when stolen, is fuel for the case that they are nothing special when placing them either. You have given me a new angle to think about.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Caching is a fairly unique activity in that something is left behind to reside over a longer course of time and a variety of unknown folks are invited to go there and look for it....

 

The sole difference between geocaching and a heck of a lot of other activities is the box. All finders are doing exactly what all the other activties mentioned are doing. All debates over the issue always end up covering the box.

 

The other activities are useful as a guage of the general public uses allowed at any one location. As you say, caching is caching. There is always judgment involved. That's true of all the other activities mentioned as well.

 

Yesterday I met the Parks and Recreation Director for a nearby town. I'm helping him on a project. When I know them better I'll talk to them about caching in his parks. Why? Like I said, there is no secret. However my first job is to help them on their project and geocaching doesn't come up when you are worried about getting the most project for your money and meeting the myriad of federal rules and regs that can cost them a lot of money.

Edited February 6, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+_hobbit]

Yet I cannot fish or hunt without a license (read "permission").

 

You can if you own or lease the land you're hunting or fishing on.

 

Um -- no you can't, even if you own the property -- at least in Oklahoma. You STILL must have a fishing or hunting license.

[+Stargazer22]

 

Yesterday I met the Parks and Recreation Director for a nearby town. I'm helping him on a project. When I know them better I'll talk to them about caching in his parks. Why? Like I said, there is no secret. However my first job is to help them on their project and geocaching doesn't come up when you are worried about getting the most project for your money and meeting the myriad of federal rules and regs that can cost them a lot of money.

 

Kudos to you for working with your Parks and Recreation Director for local projects. I always think it's great for folks to be involved in their communities. And I see that you understand the concept of making friends and earning respect, then asking them for permission to place geocaches. Once they consider you helpful and friendly, it's more likely that you will be given permission.

Sometimes it's harder to say no to someone you think of as a friend.

 

You have taken the pebble from the hand, Grasshopper!

[+Rockin Roddy]

...Caching is a fairly unique activity in that something is left behind to reside over a longer course of time and a variety of unknown folks are invited to go there and look for it....

 

The sole difference between geocaching and a heck of a lot of other activities is the box. All finders are doing exactly what all the other activties mentioned are doing. All debates over the issue always end up covering the box.

 

The other activities are useful as a guage of the general public uses allowed at any one location. As you say, caching is caching. There is always judgment involved. That's true of all the other activities mentioned as well.

 

Yesterday I met the Parks and Recreation Director for a nearby town. I'm helping him on a project. When I know them better I'll talk to them about caching in his parks. Why? Like I said, there is no secret. However my first job is to help them on their project and geocaching doesn't come up when you are worried about getting the most project for your money and meeting the myriad of federal rules and regs that can cost them a lot of money.

 

Or is it to become friends with this person to better the chances of getting a favorable policy (if that's your goal for talking about caching w/this person)? Making friends with land owners or management really helps in MOST situations. In fact, since we've had our policy in place with our state parks, I've seen a few parks actually buy units to loan out to visitors (they see the potential for more revenues doing this). Had we just decided to "place as we see fit" (since frisbee and other popular activities are already allowed here). we'd not have the friendship (IMHO) or the cooperation between both parties...and I TRULY doubt we'd have OUR parks promoting geocaching! (we'd likely not have caching AT ALL) Our policy didn't happen overnight, it took much work by some great people...but in the end, it's well worth it! I know since I'm hosting our 2nd annual event AT our local S.P., with their approval and help...even donations of use of the shelters and prizes for the contests! Working with these people has been great, fighting with them surely wouldn't have been!

 

Your post above this is mighty confusing, you say laws will protect our caches, then you say they won't (or are so weak they would need us to do most of the work). All this while trying to say we have a right to place the caches "wherever we can play other activities". I'll tell you this...someone walks up and steals my frisbee while I'm playing and we'll have a good go before the law is brought in. Someone steals your cache...what will you do? You see, I'll be right there with my frisbee, the cache is left for anyone to find and do with as they please...including calling the cops or bomb squad. I think this is the big difference between caching and any other activity.

 

And I know, some will harp about a "lost frisbee" or whatever...please! When a FRISBEE is confused as a bomb, I'll worry about such nonsense

[+infiniteMPG]

The sole difference between geocaching and a heck of a lot of other activities is the box. All finders are doing exactly what all the other activties mentioned are doing. All debates over the issue always end up covering the box.

I think if given a choice on any public land, they'd prefer a camo'ed box tucked neatly under a fallen tree to to the billion tons of empty cans, plastic water bottles, chip bags, cigarette butts, shopping bags, and other debris that is regulated by litter laws but somehow still gets left behind in all those places. If they understood the concept of CITO then they'd probably encourage it to clean up after the people who's activities are not supposed to leave anything behind but still do.

[+infiniteMPG]

Um -- no you can't, even if you own the property -- at least in Oklahoma. You STILL must have a fishing or hunting license.

In Florida you can fish on water on your own property without a license and you can also fish in salt water as long as you are fishing from land (or a pier or something attached to the land). Just like different properties and different states and different counties have different regulations, you have to work with what you've got.

[+Renegade Knight]

...please! When a FRISBEE is confused as a bomb, I'll worry about such nonsense

 

Star Wars Toys, Laptops, Whoopie Cushions, Personal Effects, Flashlights, Exotic Foods. I haven't yet read about a frisbee, but I can't say one wasn't in that box of personal effects, Easter Egg Styple Hunt Prizes, Chilli, Recording Equipment, Honey & An Oyster Shell, Golf Ball Speed Checker. In other words most of the things we use in daily life can be on the receiving end of a situation.

 

Just like caches, none of these things are a problem. The problem is that there are people who do make bombs. That in turn results in the need for professionals to deal with those bombs. In turn those pro's can't see everthing and be everywhere so they ask the public to watch and call leaving the decision making to the pros. The public does this resulting in false alarms. False alarms are a side effect of bombs. Not the items we use in daily life.

[+Rockin Roddy]

The sole difference between geocaching and a heck of a lot of other activities is the box. All finders are doing exactly what all the other activties mentioned are doing. All debates over the issue always end up covering the box.

I think if given a choice on any public land, they'd prefer a camo'ed box tucked neatly under a fallen tree to to the billion tons of empty cans, plastic water bottles, chip bags, cigarette butts, shopping bags, and other debris that is regulated by litter laws but somehow still gets left behind in all those places. If they understood the concept of CITO then they'd probably encourage it to clean up after the people who's activities are not supposed to leave anything behind but still do.

 

I agree...IF given a choice. Here's where we cachers can get a foot in the door at most locations. I tout CITO as part of my presentation when asking for permission (which, in most cases, takes all of a few minutes and ends favorably). I also boast of the potential for increased visitation which means more revenues in parks and lands which charge...and more funds for those who depend on visitation for their cut of tax money.

 

I DID have one park say no. It took me another visit about a month later to get the OK. This was after I brought them info from other parks which allowed caching...this info pointed to the increased visitation I had boasted about...and of course, the LM was VERY receptive! It sometimes DOES take a few trips and some convincing, but (IMHO) it's well worth the peace of mind knowing I have made a new friend and will have someone working with me to assure caches stay in place (workers finding them etc). Of the 2 caches I've since lost in that park, 1 was taken to the manager's desk...and he quickly called me and had the cache replaced!! Gotta love that!!

 

In fact, the REAL secret...there SHOULDN'T be a secret between us and the landowners!

Edited February 6, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+Renegade Knight]

.......someone walks up and steals my frisbee while I'm playing and we'll have a good go before the law is brought in. Someone steals your cache...what will you do? You see, I'll be right there with my frisbee, the cache is left for anyone to find and do with as they please......

 

The Frisbee Test is a rule of thumb for placing caches. Not defending them from all comers. I think you are talking about the "Pry it from my cold dead fingers" test which works well for things you are directly watching over. Unlike say, your car in a high school parking lot, or like you point out, a cache.