You ask permission, it's denied...but there are caches there already.

[+Glenn]

There is no need to go get permission from the Park care taker.... the general public owns the park NOT the City.

 

The park caretaker is hired to take care of the park. He represents the general public in all issues involving the park. Why do you feel it is okay to undermine his authority? Do you feel that it is okay only when geocaches are the issue or do you feel that this is the case for all issues?

[+ReadyOrNot]

I think *somebody* needs a nap.

 

Its funny that you post a question in the forums and when people answer your question, you get all mad that its not the answer that you wanted to hear. Reminds me the neighbor kid who asked if you would play cowboys and indians with him and then gets upset and storms off because you shot him...

 

I'm sorry that you didn't get the answer you wanted. Perhaps *YOU* need to take a nap.

[+Team Cotati]

"My conscience would seem to tell me that I should advise them of the ones there already"

 

Where I come from, that would be called, "ratting someone out". Since doing so in this instance would not be protecting anyone from danger, you probably wouldn't want to do it.

 

They'll find out soon enough on their own and if it does violate park rules, they will exceute their responsibilities and stop it. Unfortunately I think that it is also reasonable to presume that those supervising the activities on one park are very likely to share their experience with their peers then this could ultimately spell trouble for caches and cachers in the area. This would be considered by most as an undesirable outcome.

 

Unfortunately that doesn't concern enough geocaching folk at this point in time. It does usually concern them after the fact though. Funny that.

[+ReadyOrNot]

There is no need to go get permission from the Park care taker.... the general public owns the park NOT the City.

 

The park caretaker is hired to take care of the park. He represents the general public in all issues involving the park. Why do you feel it is okay to undermine his authority? Do you feel that it is okay only when geocaches are the issue or do you feel that this is the case for all issues?

 

He's not hired to be the park God who determines what everyone can and cannot do to entertain themselves. Is that really the world you want to live in?

[+Team Cotati]

There is no need to go get permission from the Park care taker.... the general public owns the park NOT the City.

 

The park caretaker is hired to take care of the park. He represents the general public in all issues involving the park. Why do you feel it is okay to undermine his authority? Do you feel that it is okay only when geocaches are the issue or do you feel that this is the case for all issues?

 

He's not hired to be the park God who determines what everyone can and cannot do to entertain themselves. Is that really the world you want to live in?

 

I think that that pretty well sums up the attitude of the irrational self-serving corps of geocaching. Of course it is ridiculous on the face of it but trust me, that has yet to discourage those wonderful members of the geocaching community. Some day they may come to their senses, however I think that the evidence to date indicates that that is many years away.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+sbell111]

There is no need to go get permission from the Park care taker.... the general public owns the park NOT the City.

The park caretaker is hired to take care of the park. He represents the general public in all issues involving the park. Why do you feel it is okay to undermine his authority? Do you feel that it is okay only when geocaches are the issue or do you feel that this is the case for all issues?

He's not hired to be the park God who determines what everyone can and cannot do to entertain themselves. Is that really the world you want to live in?

I think that that pretty well sums up the attitude of the irrational self-serving corps of geocaching. Of course it is ridiculous on the face of it but trust me, that has yet to discourage those wonderful members of the geocaching community. Some day they may come to their senses, however I think that the evidence to date indicates that that is many years away.

Rationally, I'm not sure why a park caretaker should be asked.

 

A caretaker is hired to do only a few things. He makes sure that the facilities are kept in good repair including maintenance of equipment and buildings, grass is kept mowed, trails are in good repair. He also keeps an eye out to ensure that established policies are followed.

 

As long as policies are followed and no laws are being broken, why should he care what benign recreational activities are taking place?

Edited February 3, 2008 by sbell111

[+HopsMaltYeast]

\

Just because they turned you down, doesn't mean that the previous caches weren't placed with permission.

 

Find a different location for your cache.

 

They may have been granted permission originally, but as I stated in the OP, their stance is now "We don't allow geocaches in our park."

 

Are you a troll?

 

This early post seems to be at odds with your later posts. If they don't allow geocaches then you should follow their rules and GeoCaching rules and not place a cache on their land.

 

How hard is that to understand?

 

(Of course we now know you didn't ask permission before posting, you weren't denied permission and there weren't other caches on that park's land.) You later state that there are no previous caches on the site you want to place a cache on.

 

Bermuda Triangle - a bs contrived goofy argument with no basis in fact - and impossible to debate in scientific and factual terms. A canard.

[+Team Cotati]

There is no need to go get permission from the Park care taker.... the general public owns the park NOT the City.

The park caretaker is hired to take care of the park. He represents the general public in all issues involving the park. Why do you feel it is okay to undermine his authority? Do you feel that it is okay only when geocaches are the issue or do you feel that this is the case for all issues?

He's not hired to be the park God who determines what everyone can and cannot do to entertain themselves. Is that really the world you want to live in?

I think that that pretty well sums up the attitude of the irrational self-serving corps of geocaching. Of course it is ridiculous on the face of it but trust me, that has yet to discourage those wonderful members of the geocaching community. Some day they may come to their senses, however I think that the evidence to date indicates that that is many years away.

Rationally, I'm not sure why a park caretaker should be asked.

 

A caretaker is hired to do only a few things. He makes sure that the facilities are kept in good repair including maintenance of equipment and buildings, grass is kept mowed, trails are in good repair. He also keeps an eye out to ensure that established policies are followed.

 

As long as policies are followed and no laws are being broken, why should he care what benign recreational activities are taking place?

 

As I have said before, this "caretaker person" who keeps popping up in these threads is possibly the person who has the least authority wrt to interpreting and enforcing any park rules that might exist. Typically such a staff person is responsible for showing up to work on time and carrying out his assigned duties...period.

 

I think that you could make the argument that those who keep talking about these "caretakers" and "groundskeepers" and such, do so with the knowledge that what is really going on here is the seeking out of the person who will likely pose the least resistance, ask the fewest questions and who predictably might have the least interest in the subject. Whether or not they reasonably have the authority or knowledge to 'approve' of any activities in any park is essentially irrelevant and of no concern.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+HopsMaltYeast]

Permission to recreate where recreation already happens without problem or incident is automatic.

If there is a policy follow the policy. If not, be respectful as you should be anyway.

 

I am trying to follow geocaching.com policy (see link above).

 

That people are basically advising against that, on a forum *provided* by geocaching.com, is pretty breathtaking.

 

Your lack of rigor and attention to facts is breathtaking to me.

 

I have no idea about the emails you have received but a quick review of this threads shows absolutely zero evidence that anyone advocates breaking GeoCaching rules.

 

You say folks have advised to break the rules. I am not calling you a liar, but I have not seen any evidence to support your premise.

 

I invite you to post evidence to the contrary.

 

What I have seen is that Vickers has posted 20 times to this thread.

 

Folks saying to following the rules posted 25 times.

 

Folks saying to break the rules posted zero times.

 

Folks posting off topic posted 63 times.

 

 

Once again, I think you are trolling.

[+sbell111]

There is no need to go get permission from the Park care taker.... the general public owns the park NOT the City.

The park caretaker is hired to take care of the park. He represents the general public in all issues involving the park. Why do you feel it is okay to undermine his authority? Do you feel that it is okay only when geocaches are the issue or do you feel that this is the case for all issues?

He's not hired to be the park God who determines what everyone can and cannot do to entertain themselves. Is that really the world you want to live in?

I think that that pretty well sums up the attitude of the irrational self-serving corps of geocaching. Of course it is ridiculous on the face of it but trust me, that has yet to discourage those wonderful members of the geocaching community. Some day they may come to their senses, however I think that the evidence to date indicates that that is many years away.

Rationally, I'm not sure why a park caretaker should be asked.

 

A caretaker is hired to do only a few things. He makes sure that the facilities are kept in good repair including maintenance of equipment and buildings, grass is kept mowed, trails are in good repair. He also keeps an eye out to ensure that established policies are followed.

 

As long as policies are followed and no laws are being broken, why should he care what benign recreational activities are taking place?

 

As I have said before, this "caretaker person" who keeps popping up in these threads is possibly the person who has the least authority wrt to interpreting and enforcing any park rules that might exist. Typivally such a staff person is responsible for showing up to work on time and carrying out his assigned duties...period.

 

I think that you could make the argument that those who keep talking about these "caretakers" and "groundskeepers" and such, do so with the knowledge that what is really going on here is the seeking out of the person who will likely pose the least resistance, ask the fewest questions and who predictably might have the least interest in the subject. Whether or not they reasonably have the authority or knowledge to 'approve' of any activities in any park is essentially irrelevant and of no concern.

Take it on the road. I didn't bring up the caretaker.

[+TeamGumbo]

You say folks have advised to break the rules. I am not calling you a liar, but I have not seen any evidence to support your premise.

 

I invite you to post evidence to the contrary.

 

OK, just to recap, here is the the page with the following rule:

 

"If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules."

 

Now I realize that some people (OK...you) feel that I have a "lack of rigor and attention to facts" but I interpret the above to mean that I need to contact the managing agency.

 

Contact. Not play frisbee (although I do have on in my car), but actually talk with somebody.

 

Anyway, on to the evidence to the contrary:

 

"The existing caches are clearly not causing any issues or concerns if the park managers are blissfully unaware of them."

 

"If the park has no policy on caching and it's a recreational park, caching is certainly a viable casual use and I'd place the cache."

 

"A wise man once told me, "It's easier to apologize than ask for permission.""

 

"Permission is already granted in most parks. Parks are built for casual recreational activities, caching is a casual recreational activity. Permission granted unless they decide to create a policy specific to any particualr recreational activity. That includes caching."

 

"For the same reasons I think you don't need to ask in a park that has no policy on caching"

 

"I'd say people ask permission every time they feel that they should and don't ask where it's not neccessary. Same as every other activity we do."

 

"So everything was fine until you asked permission and now noone can enjoy geocaching in the park... Hmmmmm.. Exactly the reason I ASSUME permission in public locations..."

 

"I don't feel like going round and around this issue, yet again, but the guidelines do not require explicit permission for all caches."

 

"They're being good and quiet and playing nicely together and its getting to be late. They have 2 choices, ask Mom and Dad if they can stay up later or continue doing what they're doing without causing a fuss.. They understand that as long as they are getting along, not screaming and not fighting, I'm going to leave them alone and let them be. Then my youngest son decides he's going to ask me if they can stay up longer and not go to bed. Annoyed that he dared interrupt my quiet time, I tell them all that it's time to go to bed."

 

(I love that story!)

 

"There is no need to go get permission from the Park care taker.... the general public owns the park NOT the City."

 

"there are dozens upon dozens who don’t understand the concept behind the Frisbee Test"

 

etc. etc.

 

I would go on, but that would take me into the end of page 2 and on to page 3, where people were REALLY posting during naptime.

 

Anyway, it looks like there is a certain nudge-nudge-wink-wink dynamic as regards the permission thing, which is fine by me.

 

My original question was posed when I didn't realize this was de rigueur.

 

Live and learn!

[+sbell111]

You say folks have advised to break the rules. I am not calling you a liar, but I have not seen any evidence to support your premise.

 

I invite you to post evidence to the contrary.

OK, just to recap, here is the the page with the following rule:

 

"If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules." ...

Please take a look at the guidelines for placing a cache. Those are the 'rules'. What you are quoting is not a 'rule' any more than the 'rule' that states that we must trade trinkets.

[+HopsMaltYeast]

Vickers, I say again,

 

post any evidence that anyone here posted specifically that you should break the rules.

 

It did not happen.

 

Read the rules.

 

Follow the rules.

 

Move on.

 

Are you daft?

 

Read the rules. You keep quoting the rules and say you are asking for clarification.

 

Read the rules. Follow the rules. Move on and quit trolling.

 

Quit trolling.

 

Clear enough?

[+TeamGumbo]

Are you daft?

 

Dude, what part of "it looks like there is a certain nudge-nudge-wink-wink dynamic as regards the permission thing, which is fine by me" are you missing?

 

I'm cool with it!

[+StarBrand]

OK, just to recap, here is the the page with the following rule:

 

"If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules."

 

Isn't that pretty much exactly what I suggested?? (Ask about any Geocaching rules and follow them).

 

Asking for explicit permission is a whole other ball game.

[+TeamGumbo]

Isn't that pretty much exactly what I suggested?? (Ask about any Geocaching rules and follow them).

 

Asking for explicit permission is a whole other ball game.

 

 

I get it.

[+HopsMaltYeast]

Are you daft?

 

Dude, what part of "it looks like there is a certain nudge-nudge-wink-wink dynamic as regards the permission thing, which is fine by me" are you missing?

 

I'm cool with it!

Are you daft? Where does wink nudge come into this?

 

No one said break the rules.

 

No one said nudge wink

 

Are you daft?

 

Follow the rules.

 

You quoted them. Follow them.

 

Quit trolling.

[+TeamGumbo]

Are you daft?

 

Dude, what part of "it looks like there is a certain nudge-nudge-wink-wink dynamic as regards the permission thing, which is fine by me" are you missing?

 

I'm cool with it!

Are you daft? Where does wink nudge come into this?

 

 

Dude, the first rule of nudge-nudge-wink-wink...

 

 

Look, if everybody is placing caches without permission, either implied or explicit, THAT IS FINE BY ME. After the phone calls I've had over the last few days, you've convinced me.

[+ironman114]

Let me see if I can help clear the muddy waters here a bit.

 

 

VickersDavis is quoting the guidelines in the " Tips on hiding your first cache

Hiding Your First Geocache " page found here.

 

They do say "Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. "

 

On the other hand many posters have been referring to the "Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines for placing a cache that you have to agree to when placing a cache found here.

 

These guidelines "HAVE" to be agreed to to get a listing. They say "These are listing guidelines only."

 

Also It says " By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location. "

 

Adequate is not the same as explicit. So some may assume that if hiking, hunting, fishing, picnicking, Frisbee or others games are allowed without asking each time geocaching should be also.

 

Many timber companies in the West own thousand and thousands of acres of land. They are open to the public to use for all of the things I mentioned. They do not post tis on their lands. ( actually one does have small signs on some that allow or not allow motorized vehicles but do allow hiking bikes and horses) Do I need to ask permission to place a geocache there?

Edited February 3, 2008 by ironman114

[+HopsMaltYeast]

Are you daft?

 

Dude, what part of "it looks like there is a certain nudge-nudge-wink-wink dynamic as regards the permission thing, which is fine by me" are you missing?

 

I'm cool with it!

Are you daft? Where does wink nudge come into this?

 

 

Dude, the first rule of nudge-nudge-wink-wink...

 

 

Look, if everybody is placing caches without permission, either implied or explicit, THAT IS FINE BY ME. After the phone calls I've had over the last few days, you've convinced me.

 

I think we just crossed the line between daft and delusional.

 

Everybody is not placing caches without permission.

 

I for one have not phoned you nor would I want to.

 

I am out of this one.

[+TeamGumbo]

Let me see if I can help clear the muddy waters here a bit.

 

 

Actually, that clears the water quite a bit.

 

I saw a few posts ago someone mentioned a difference between the page I was citing and the page you cite, but a link was not given. This explains a lot about the differences of opinion/interpretation as regards the "rules" (or "guidelines" I suppose is a better word).

 

Thank you.

[+TeamGumbo]

I for one have not phoned you nor would I want to.

 

I was referring to the phone calls I've made to various local park managers, facilities managers, regional directors, etc.

[+Radnord]

Been there, Done that. Authorities didn't know about geocaching and so caches went unnoticed, but thanks to me, now they know about geocaching. Will that cause them to look for unauthorized caches?- I don't know- It hasn't seemed to so far. I basically worry about my own caches and getting permission for them.

Yes I suppose if asking for permission causes trouble for other caches already there you probably won't be very popular with those geocachers. I never mention other peoples caches to the authorities, but that doesn't mean the authorities can't check and find out. So far so good.

 

P.S. Took me two years to get permission from local parks commission- any wonder why people don't want to ask.

 

Here's an idea. How about asking the folks that own/manage the property first. I really couldn't give two hoots as to what the "local cachers" say because based on my personal experience most never ask permission before hiding a cache. If you are told "no" about placing a cache, then I see nothing wrong with doing one of two things.

 

You could inform the park's folks of the current caches in their park and let them take care of them or you could find and retrieve the "unauthorized" caches and place them at a location (with permission) and then inform the owners of where they can find their displaced caches. Either way, you're doing the right thing!!!!!

 

Yes, yes, I know I didn't mention emailing the owner option!!!!!! Why didn't I?????? Because in most caches it doesn't work!!!!!!

 

If doing the right thing makes you the local caching pariah, who cares!!!!!!! You can't please all the folks, all the time. You may be surprised that folks with your similar qualities may actually seek you out. There are alot of folks out there who want to do the right thing but who don't have the guts to do it. Too many folks go through life worried about what other folks think of them and they don't do what's right. Don't be one of them.

I think that this is two bad pieces of advice.

 

First, if the other cachers did ask for permission, they may be able to give you good advice on how to get yours approved.

 

Second, if you get turned down, it would be better to simply notify the other cache owners of what happened. A) It gives them a chance to fix the problem (perhaps they have permission), B ) It doesn't peave a land manager and poison future caching at that location, and C) It doesn't get everyone mad at you because overstepped.

 

One can't assume that simply because the present parks administration doesn't know about a geocache placed within its boundaries, that that cache owner did not receive permission from someone else. People in these jobs come and go and how much a parks administrator cares about geocaches within the context of their busy days varies wildly. Before I placed any caches I tried to contact several of my local parks administrators via e-mail and phone, to "do the right thing" and seek prior permission. Not one of those folks ever got back to me or even delegated the matter to a subordinate to follow up on the matter with me. This thundering silence suggested to me that this matter was not much of a concern to them.

 

Moving another owner's cache is just wrong; if that person is required to move it, it is up to him/her to choose a new location or just remove it all together. It is not any of our places to make that decision for them.

 

I guess it is like the old addage: It is 10 times easier to receive forgiveness than to receive permission.

[CoyoteRed]

Look, if everybody is placing caches without permission, either implied or explicit, THAT IS FINE BY ME. After the phone calls I've had over the last few days, you've convinced me.

I was referring to the phone calls I've made to various local park managers, facilities managers, regional directors, etc.

What was the nature of the phone calls you're been making? I'm curious.

 

Edited to add: Let me go ahead and go with where I was going with this as I might not be able to further respond until next weekend.

 

The reason I ask is the way you ask about permission, or any question as a matter of fact, is important. You can approach it various ways, but from the tone I reading in your posts it seems to me that it may have been hostile.

 

There are vast differences in "Do you have a policy on geocaching" and "Does those geocaches in your park have permission to be there?" Tone and attitude even come into play over the phone with the very same words. It could be the difference in a congenial conversation and getting hung up on.

 

Further, I refuse to believe "everybody" is placing caches without permission. Remember, the standard is "adequate" not "implied" or "explicit." As someone who has explored the issue of permission a bit I know "adequate" can run the gamut. I didn't have to explore the issue with land managers very long before I ran into the "don't ask, don't tell" type of permission. "Implied?" Nope. "Explicit?" Certainly not. The answer I received was, as accurately paraphrased here as I can remember, "Look, I talked to our lawyers. They said we can't give permission for something like that. Now, I'm not saying no, but the lawyers say I can't say yes either. You understand? We do maintain that area for recreation. Sounds like you're recreating." This is a perfect example of no permission actually meeting the standard of "adequate permission." In other words, knowing that geocaching exists and refusing to have a policy of allowing or prohibiting geocaching is adequate permission. "Expressly unofficially not prohibited" is tacit permission and, therefor, adequate permission.

 

Don't try to misconstrue the above to mean that every cache without implied or better permission has tacit permission. It's hard for a land steward to have any opinion if he is clueless. I'm sure there are those that are like that. The problem for us comes in distinguishing between the two. You really can't. Nor would you want to. Remember the tacit permission? You can't indicate tacit permission, can you? If you try to force express permission from a land steward that tacit permission could very well turn into a "no."

 

So, be careful how you ask if those geocaches have permission to be there. It could be they don't have permission, per se, but they are okay to be there. Also, being too pushy on the issue could very well turn that tacit permission into a prohibition.

 

One other thing I should point out. Geocaching only exists by the good graces of other. The only security our caches have is obscurity. Any one of us could fall victim of someone with a vendetta. How difficult would it be for one to own caches if someone made it a hobby to go around and simply pick up each of that person's caches? Pretty hard, right? I'd be pretty careful. It may seem we all cache in a vacuum, but we don't. This may sound like a threat, it's not. It's a pointer on something you may not have thought of. Take it for what it's worth.

 

I hope you don't throw your hands up in frustration before you fully explore the fuzzy world of permission. It is hard to sometimes get your mind wrapped around some of the concepts or understand the mindsets of some land stewards. Permission is important. Remember, our hobby only exists by the good graces of the land stewards whose wards on which we pursue our hobby. We need to keep them happy--however that may be.

 

Good luck.

Edited February 3, 2008 by CoyoteRed

[+Team Cotati]

Let me see if I can help clear the muddy waters here a bit.

 

 

VickersDavis is quoting the guidelines in the " Tips on hiding your first cache

Hiding Your First Geocache " page found here.

 

They do say "Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. "

 

On the other hand many posters have been referring to the "Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines for placing a cache that you have to agree to when placing a cache found here.

 

These guidelines "HAVE" to be agreed to to get a listing. They say "These are listing guidelines only."

 

Also It says " By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location. "

 

Adequate is not the same as explicit. So some may assume that if hiking, hunting, fishing, picnicking, Frisbee or others games are allowed without asking each time geocaching should be also.

 

Many timber companies in the West own thousand and thousands of acres of land. They are open to the public to use for all of the things I mentioned. They do not post tis on their lands. ( actually one does have small signs on some that allow or not allow motorized vehicles but do allow hiking bikes and horses) Do I need to ask permission to place a geocache there?

 

"Many timber companies in the West own thousand and thousands of acres of land. They are open to the public to use for all of the things I mentioned."

 

How is it exactly, that you acquired that knowledge?

[+TeamGumbo]

What was the nature of the phone calls you're been making? I'm curious.

 

Basically I called up a park and told them my name, that I would like to place a geocache in the park, and explained geocaching (containers, CITO policy, told them the website, etc.),

 

This particular park does not have a prior cache (unless it is the ultimate location of a mystery cache).

 

When I posed my original question, I honestly had no idea that folks weren't getting explicit permission for caches. I chalk it up to naiveté and plain old newbieness on my part, but I'm much better now.

[+ironman114]

Let me see if I can help clear the muddy waters here a bit.

 

 

VickersDavis is quoting the guidelines in the " Tips on hiding your first cache

Hiding Your First Geocache " page found here.

 

They do say "Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. "

 

On the other hand many posters have been referring to the "Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines for placing a cache that you have to agree to when placing a cache found here.

 

These guidelines "HAVE" to be agreed to to get a listing. They say "These are listing guidelines only."

 

Also It says " By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location. "

 

Adequate is not the same as explicit. So some may assume that if hiking, hunting, fishing, picnicking, Frisbee or others games are allowed without asking each time geocaching should be also.

 

Many timber companies in the West own thousand and thousands of acres of land. They are open to the public to use for all of the things I mentioned. They do not post tis on their lands. ( actually one does have small signs on some that allow or not allow motorized vehicles but do allow hiking bikes and horses) Do I need to ask permission to place a geocache there?

 

"Many timber companies in the West own thousand and thousands of acres of land. They are open to the public to use for all of the things I mentioned."

 

How is it exactly, that you acquired that knowledge?

 

Many years ago one of the major timber companies printed maps of their land they held around the state I live in. They showed all the small roads that no other mapmaker shows and where there was heavy seedling damage by deer or elk. They had one side that said, (this is a direct quote from the map in front of me):

 

"WELCOME.......Our forests also support a wide variety of wildlife, fisheries and recreational opportunities" They continue on to talk about using firearms in the forests in a safe manner.

 

Edit to add to my previous post:

 

One of those timber companies owns 1.5 million acres of land in my state and 7 million in the U.S. They also own the rights to 35 million acres of timber in Canada.

Edited February 3, 2008 by ironman114

[Luckless]

Many years ago one of the major timber companies printed maps of their land they held around the state I live in. They showed all the small roads that no other mapmaker shows and where there was heavy seedling damage by deer or elk. They had one side that said, (this is a direct quote from the map in front of me):

 

"WELCOME.......Our forests also support a wide variety of wildlife, fisheries and recreational opportunities" They continue on to talk about using firearms in the forests in a safe manner.

 

Some people would probably feel that "welcome" and "our forests support ...recreational opportunities" as adequate permission. Sure sounds like it could be.

Me, trouble maker that I am, I would probably go to them and tell them about geocaching and would it be okay if I placed a cache there, since they say they allow recreational access. This could possibly cause them to have concerns about geocaches where maybe there wasn't any, but so far I haven't been turned down or run into that much concern. And what I choose to do wouldn't make the others wrong who feel the statements on the map gives them implied permission.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Luckless

[+Renegade Knight]

....OK, just to recap, here is the the page with the following rule:

 

"If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules."...

 

Just to recap and bring you into reality.

 

I don't have to call the police to ask about the speeds I should travel on their roads every time I change roads. They conveniently post speed signs to make it easy for me. They tell me where to stop, to go, when to yield and such. They even put out a guidebook that tells me their expectations for how long to use my turn signal and all kinds of other information.

 

Similar with a park. They post their rules, they post their cares and concerns. For more detailed information you can read the website. You don't need to call them for each park and ask "are the rules for this park the same as for the other?" They are, but if they aren't it will be posted because it is different.

 

The Groundspeak guidelines nor is any advice you have been given in this thread a substitute for common sense.

 

CR's excellent post illustrates some of the issues.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Team Cotati]

Let me see if I can help clear the muddy waters here a bit.

 

 

VickersDavis is quoting the guidelines in the " Tips on hiding your first cache

Hiding Your First Geocache " page found here.

 

They do say "Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. "

 

On the other hand many posters have been referring to the "Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines for placing a cache that you have to agree to when placing a cache found here.

 

These guidelines "HAVE" to be agreed to to get a listing. They say "These are listing guidelines only."

 

Also It says " By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location. "

 

Adequate is not the same as explicit. So some may assume that if hiking, hunting, fishing, picnicking, Frisbee or others games are allowed without asking each time geocaching should be also.

 

Many timber companies in the West own thousand and thousands of acres of land. They are open to the public to use for all of the things I mentioned. They do not post tis on their lands. ( actually one does have small signs on some that allow or not allow motorized vehicles but do allow hiking bikes and horses) Do I need to ask permission to place a geocache there?

 

"Many timber companies in the West own thousand and thousands of acres of land. They are open to the public to use for all of the things I mentioned."

 

How is it exactly, that you acquired that knowledge?

 

Many years ago one of the major timber companies printed maps of their land they held around the state I live in. They showed all the small roads that no other mapmaker shows and where there was heavy seedling damage by deer or elk. They had one side that said, (this is a direct quote from the map in front of me):

 

"WELCOME.......Our forests also support a wide variety of wildlife, fisheries and recreational opportunities" They continue on to talk about using firearms in the forests in a safe manner.

 

Edit to add to my previous post:

 

One of those timber companies owns 1.5 million acres of land in my state and 7 million in the U.S. They also own the rights to 35 million acres of timber in Canada.

 

Does that timber company happen to have a name associated with their U.S.A. operations?....in your state?

[+Renegade Knight]

...Many timber companies in the West own thousand and thousands of acres of land. They are open to the public to use for all of the things I mentioned. They do not post tis on their lands. ( actually one does have small signs on some that allow or not allow motorized vehicles but do allow hiking bikes and horses) Do I need to ask permission to place a geocache there?

 

One of ours is feeling the urge to start charging for access. That just opens them up to liability since now they are going to have to warrant their lands are now safe for the recreational opportunity they wish to charge for.

[+Team Cotati]

...Many timber companies in the West own thousand and thousands of acres of land. They are open to the public to use for all of the things I mentioned. They do not post tis on their lands. ( actually one does have small signs on some that allow or not allow motorized vehicles but do allow hiking bikes and horses) Do I need to ask permission to place a geocache there?

 

One of ours is feeling the urge to start charging for access. That just opens them up to liability since now they are going to have to warrant their lands are now safe for the recreational opportunity they wish to charge for.

 

Bet that they didn't see that one coming.

[+ironman114]

Does that timber company happen to have a name associated with their U.S.A. operations?....in your state?

 

Weyerhaeuser

 

In some states they lease their land to the state or hunting organizations for hunting access. Not most of mine.

Edited February 4, 2008 by ironman114

[+TeamGumbo]

Just to recap and bring you into reality.

 

Nice.