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You ask permission, it's denied...but there are caches there already.


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I am getting ready to place my first few caches, and I intend to ask permission beforehand (these are local city and county parks).

 

At a couple of them there are already caches there (pretty far away from where I want to place one), so I'm guessing that they have been allowed by...somebody.

 

But what if I am told "We don't allow geocaches in our park" ?

 

My conscience would seem to tell me that I should advise them of the ones there already, but I hardly think that would endear me to the folks who hid them.

 

What would you do?

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I am getting ready to place my first few caches, and I intend to ask permission beforehand (these are local city and county parks).

 

At a couple of them there are already caches there (pretty far away from where I want to place one), so I'm guessing that they have been allowed by...somebody.

 

But what if I am told "We don't allow geocaches in our park" ?

 

My conscience would seem to tell me that I should advise them of the ones there already, but I hardly think that would endear me to the folks who hid them.

 

What would you do?

Just because they turned you down, doesn't mean that the previous caches weren't placed with permission.

 

Find a different location for your cache.

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Just because they turned you down, doesn't mean that the previous caches weren't placed with permission.

 

Find a different location for your cache.

 

They may have been granted permission originally, but as I stated in the OP, their stance is now "We don't allow geocaches in our park."

Edited by VickersDavis
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How about emailing the owner and letting them handle it as they see fit? That way they know if they didn't before, but you aren't calling them on the carpet publicly.

Then they can ignore your e-mail and in the future if the park land managers find the caches and remove then you will get blamed for their removal.

Edited by JohnnyVegas
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How about emailing the owner and letting them handle it as they see fit? That way they know if they didn't before, but you aren't calling them on the carpet publicly.

Then they can ignore your e-mail and in the future if the park land managers find the caches and remove then you will get blamed for their removal.

 

That's my luck!

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Just because they turned you down, doesn't mean that the previous caches weren't placed with permission.
They may have been granted permission originally, but as I stated in the OP, their stance is now "We don't allow geocaches in our park."

When the NPS stopped allowing caches a long time ago, most of them did not ask for the old caches to be removed. I would take that mentality and just let the owners of those caches know what you were told and fina a different place.

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Cacahe approvers are volunteers...

and each has different interpretations of the "rules"...

Personally I try not to referance other caches that have been approved by another approver...

(I have done this in the past, and it just doesn't get you anywhere, and may have the downside of another cachers successful cache being archived)...

The approvers are not there to dis-approve your cache...

They want to have them approved...

but will require you to stay within the guidelines, as they individually interpret them...

 

Basiclly, just deal with the approver you are working with...

and either justify your cache, on it's own merits, to their requirements...

or chalk it up, and say "Oh well" and find another location...

 

I have always found that the approvers will eventually approve a cache after good justification...

(we have had a couple dis-approved, and there was alwys a good reason that we had overlooked)...

Keep in mind, this may take multiple e-mails...

Also... don't get mad if you dis-agree with an approvers reasons for dis-allowing...

That will get you no where...

These volunteers don't need the grief, with all the caches they have to monitor...

Their time is valuable to themselves also...

if it is really important to you (I can't see a cache being that important though)...

You can always appeal to Groundspeak...

BUT that would have to be really good complaint...

I would never go that route... a cache dis-allowed is just not worth becoming a PITA...

Edited by Peconic Bay Sailors
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When the NPS stopped allowing caches a long time ago, most of them did not ask for the old caches to be removed. I would take that mentality and just let the owners of those caches know what you were told and fina a different place.

 

That's another funny thing...I keep seeing posts saying the NPS has banned all geocaches, but I was looking at their

policy letter from October 19,2007 and it seems that they can be approved on a case-by-case basis (they even mention www.geocaching.com).

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When the NPS stopped allowing caches a long time ago, most of them did not ask for the old caches to be removed. I would take that mentality and just let the owners of those caches know what you were told and fina a different place.

 

That's another funny thing...I keep seeing posts saying the NPS has banned all geocaches, but I was looking at their

policy letter from October 19,2007 and it seems that they can be approved on a case-by-case basis (they even mention www.geocaching.com).

Hey that's new, to me anyway...

they have always dis-allowed caches on the basis of a rule that says...

"no littering" or something to that effect...

I think when you come down to it caches were banned, because they don't want any bushwhacking...

i.e. possibility of sensitive environments being jeopardized...

 

and if they now do allow it with approval, it will cost $$$ out of the budget...

and manpower they just don't have...

Edited by Peconic Bay Sailors
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right is right and wrong is wrong, if it is not supposed to be there then it should be removed preferably by the cache owner not by who owns or controls the area. Would rather find out from another cacher than the owners, and yes that cacher will not be very popular person, but again right is right and wrong is wrong

 

Have to archive an old one of mine the other day from 2002 that I placed without permission after a cacher contacted the owner of the area. It happens

 

Just because there are other caches placed there means squat about was permission granted

 

Just as your mom once said if they jump off a bridge are you going to ?

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I don't care what anyone else has done...I ask permission. At the end of the day you don't want it to be your cache that was the one that caused a problem.

 

As stated in the original post, I will ask permission.

 

Well, you said "intend" to, so I was just clarifying...that can sometimes insinuate "I intend to, but if I can convince myself otherwise...". :D

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When the NPS stopped allowing caches a long time ago, most of them did not ask for the old caches to be removed. I would take that mentality and just let the owners of those caches know what you were told and fina a different place.

 

That's another funny thing...I keep seeing posts saying the NPS has banned all geocaches, but I was looking at their

policy letter from October 19,2007 and it seems that they can be approved on a case-by-case basis (they even mention www.geocaching.com).

 

Yeah, I believe that used to be true and many people aren't aware that NPS had been working on formalizing a policy. I don't think they had a pro-geocaching policy prior to 2007.

 

Here is the post we had in our Iowa forums from a state DNR source last October...

 

Just got this from my cousin, so I thought I would pass it along:

 

FYI

 

 

 

I received some information today stating that the National Park Service (NPS) is softening their position on geocaches in the parks. They are now starting to allow individual park superintendents to make the decisions as to whether or not their park is suitable for geocaches. Iowa really has only two NPS sites; Herbert Hoover at West Branch and Effigy Mounds at Marquette . Herbert Hoover is very small and is more like a groomed city park. Effigy Mounds is a nice sized area that is timbered but I called the park superintendent to find out if they were considering allowing geocaching. She said the park would not be allowing it because of its concern for the natural and cultural resource. They don’t allow people to get off the trail and they don’t provide for typical park activities like camping, picnicking, etc. Effigy Mounds is considered burial grounds and is managed under very tight restrictions.

 

 

 

The following, is an excerpt of what was sent to me. By linking to the website provided you can learn more about the NPS policy review that is going on.

 

New NPS Geocaching Policy Provides Opportunities for Outdoor Adventure

 

Geocaching, Virtual Caching and Letterboxing are GPS activities that offer significant recreational and educational value to visitors, including opportunities for a growing number of families to experience outdoor adventure in parks. The National Park Service recently released a policy review on GPS-based recreational activities in park areas addressing public outreach and education challenges, as well as monitoring and management policies.

 

 

The recreation community can aid the National Park Service in promoting appropriate GPS activities.

 

 

To read more on geocaching and for the full NPS Policy Review, go to www.funoutdoors.com

 

 

Caroline Mica

Director of Communications

American Recreation Coalition

1225 New York Avenue, N.W., Suite 450

Washington, D.C. 20005

202.682.9530 Fax: 202.682.9529

cmica@funoutdoors.com

 

 

 

Anyway, just thought I’d share this bit of information about geocaching in the NPS system.

 

 

Jerry Reisinger

State Parks Bureau

Northeast District Supervisor

Edited by egami
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Been there, Done that. Authorities didn't know about geocaching and so caches went unnoticed, but thanks to me, now they know about geocaching. Will that cause them to look for unauthorized caches?- I don't know- It hasn't seemed to so far. I basically worry about my own caches and getting permission for them.

Yes I suppose if asking for permission causes trouble for other caches already there you probably won't be very popular with those geocachers. I never mention other peoples caches to the authorities, but that doesn't mean the authorities can't check and find out. So far so good.

 

P.S. Took me two years to get permission from local parks commission- any wonder why people don't want to ask.

Edited by Luckless
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But what if .....

 

My Mother once told me, "never play "what if" "...............excellent advice.

 

Just ask, and go forward from there.

My mother told me not to play with matches and to stay away from women that hang out in bars.

I did not play with matches but I got a fireworks license

as far as the women in bars thing goes.

Well, I got it half right. :D

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But what if .....

 

My Mother once told me, "never play "what if" "...............excellent advice.

 

Just ask, and go forward from there.

 

I think the problem is that not enough people ask themselves "What if...". Not thinking things through is

what gets a lot of people in trouble. This is particularly true with geocachers.

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The existing caches are clearly not causing any issues or concerns if the park managers are blissfully unaware of them.

 

If there are exisiting rules - follow them closely. Don't ask to create new ones. A better question other than asking permission is to ask about any rules for Geocaching. Follow them.

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I am getting ready to place my first few caches, and I intend to ask permission beforehand (these are local city and county parks).

 

At a couple of them there are already caches there (pretty far away from where I want to place one), so I'm guessing that they have been allowed by...somebody.

 

But what if I am told "We don't allow geocaches in our park" ?

 

My conscience would seem to tell me that I should advise them of the ones there already, but I hardly think that would endear me to the folks who hid them.

 

What would you do?

You know, why don't you contact the owners of the other caches and let them know that you are interested in placing a cache in the park. Ask them who they spoke to and for any advice they can give you to get permission.

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I am getting ready to place my first few caches, and I intend to ask permission beforehand (these are local city and county parks).

 

At a couple of them there are already caches there (pretty far away from where I want to place one), so I'm guessing that they have been allowed by...somebody.

 

But what if I am told "We don't allow geocaches in our park" ?

 

My conscience would seem to tell me that I should advise them of the ones there already, but I hardly think that would endear me to the folks who hid them.

 

What would you do?

 

If the park has a policy on caching I'd follow it.

If the park has no policy on caching and it's a recreational park, caching is certainly a viable casual use and I'd place the cache.

If I get a no answer I'd notify the other cache owners as an FYI.

 

If you do get a, "No we don't allow any caches anywhere" keep in mind that that may just be the person you are talking to and the other caches may have permission. I've asked in a park where the policy was "yes" on caches with no special permits, and been told things that did not fit the policy. Right hand Left hand. Anything you do beyond notifying the other owners is speculation on your part. You may learn that they all talked to the superintendant of parks and got a yes, but you got a no from the recreation director who answers to the super.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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The existing caches are clearly not causing any issues or concerns if the park managers are blissfully unaware of them.

 

If there are exisiting rules - follow them closely. Don't ask to create new ones. A better question other than asking permission is to ask about any rules for Geocaching. Follow them.

Once again I agree with Star Brand. If there are existing caches why rock the boat and possibly cause the removal of all caches from your town's parks? You are making the assumption that the exisitng caches *do not* have permission and that the parks department does not know about them. You would be surprised - many parks folks are pretty sharp and actually know what goes on in their properties.

Please consult with your local cachers before proceeding! Becoming the local pariah is probably not your goal but you should consider the consequences carefully.

Edited by 9Key
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That's another funny thing...I keep seeing posts saying the NPS has banned all geocaches, but I was looking at their

policy letter from October 19,2007 and it seems that they can be approved on a case-by-case basis (they even mention www.geocaching.com).

I know what the current NPS guidance says. I'm just saying that when placement of new caches was banned, the old ones weren't out right removed or even requested to be removed. In other words, you've asked for permission and didn't get it. Tell the others in that park, maybe even mention it to your reviewer that they don't appear to be allowing new caches in there and move on to a new spot.

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Here's an idea. How about asking the folks that own/manage the property first. I really couldn't give two hoots as to what the "local cachers" say because based on my personal experience most never ask permission before hiding a cache. If you are told "no" about placing a cache, then I see nothing wrong with doing one of two things.

 

You could inform the park's folks of the current caches in their park and let them take care of them or you could find and retrieve the "unauthorized" caches and place them at a location (with permission) and then inform the owners of where they can find their displaced caches. Either way, you're doing the right thing!!!!!

 

Yes, yes, I know I didn't mention emailing the owner option!!!!!! Why didn't I?????? Because in most cases it doesn't work!!!!!!

 

If doing the right thing makes you the local caching pariah, who cares!!!!!!! You can't please all the folks, all the time. You may be surprised that folks with your similar qualities may actually seek you out. There are alot of folks out there who want to do the right thing but who don't have the guts to do it. Too many folks go through life worried about what other folks think of them and they don't do what's right. Don't be one of them.

Edited by eagletrek
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Here's an idea. How about asking the folks that own/manage the property first. I really couldn't give two hoots as to what the "local cachers" say because based on my personal experience most never ask permission before hiding a cache. If you are told "no" about placing a cache, then I see nothing wrong with doing one of two things.

 

You could inform the park's folks of the current caches in their park and let them take care of them or you could find and retrieve the "unauthorized" caches and place them at a location (with permission) and then inform the owners of where they can find their displaced caches. Either way, you're doing the right thing!!!!!

 

Yes, yes, I know I didn't mention emailing the owner option!!!!!! Why didn't I?????? Because in most caches it doesn't work!!!!!!

 

If doing the right thing makes you the local caching pariah, who cares!!!!!!! You can't please all the folks, all the time. You may be surprised that folks with your similar qualities may actually seek you out. There are alot of folks out there who want to do the right thing but who don't have the guts to do it. Too many folks go through life worried about what other folks think of them and they don't do what's right. Don't be one of them.

I think that this is two bad pieces of advice.

 

First, if the other cachers did ask for permission, they may be able to give you good advice on how to get yours approved.

 

Second, if you get turned down, it would be better to simply notify the other cache owners of what happened. A) It gives them a chance to fix the problem (perhaps they have permission), B ) It doesn't peave a land manager and poison future caching at that location, and C) It doesn't get everyone mad at you because overstepped.

Edited by sbell111
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Here's an idea. How about asking the folks that own/manage the property first. I really couldn't give two hoots as to what the "local cachers" say because based on my personal experience most never ask permission before hiding a cache. If you are told "no" about placing a cache, then I see nothing wrong with doing one of two things.

 

You could inform the park's folks of the current caches in their park and let them take care of them or you could find and retrieve the "unauthorized" caches and place them at a location (with permission) and then inform the owners of where they can find their displaced caches. Either way, you're doing the right thing!!!!!

 

Yes, yes, I know I didn't mention emailing the owner option!!!!!! Why didn't I?????? Because in most caches it doesn't work!!!!!!

 

If doing the right thing makes you the local caching pariah, who cares!!!!!!! You can't please all the folks, all the time. You may be surprised that folks with your similar qualities may actually seek you out. There are alot of folks out there who want to do the right thing but who don't have the guts to do it. Too many folks go through life worried about what other folks think of them and they don't do what's right. Don't be one of them.

I think that this is two bad pieces of advice.

 

First, if the other cachers did ask for permission, they may be able to give you good advice on how to get yours approved.

 

Second, if you get turned down, it would be better to simply notify the other cache owners of what happened. A) It gives them a chance to fix the problem (perhaps they have permission), B ) It doesn't peave a land manager and poison future caching at that location, and C) It doesn't get everyone mad at you because overstepped.

 

I'm not surprised!!!!!

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Here's an idea. How about asking the folks that own/manage the property first. I really couldn't give two hoots as to what the "local cachers" say because based on my personal experience most never ask permission before hiding a cache. If you are told "no" about placing a cache, then I see nothing wrong with doing one of two things.

 

You could inform the park's folks of the current caches in their park and let them take care of them or you could find and retrieve the "unauthorized" caches and place them at a location (with permission) and then inform the owners of where they can find their displaced caches. Either way, you're doing the right thing!!!!!

 

Yes, yes, I know I didn't mention emailing the owner option!!!!!! Why didn't I?????? Because in most caches it doesn't work!!!!!!

 

If doing the right thing makes you the local caching pariah, who cares!!!!!!! You can't please all the folks, all the time. You may be surprised that folks with your similar qualities may actually seek you out. There are alot of folks out there who want to do the right thing but who don't have the guts to do it. Too many folks go through life worried about what other folks think of them and they don't do what's right. Don't be one of them.

I think that this is two bad pieces of advice.

 

First, if the other cachers did ask for permission, they may be able to give you good advice on how to get yours approved.

 

Second, if you get turned down, it would be better to simply notify the other cache owners of what happened. A) It gives them a chance to fix the problem (perhaps they have permission), B ) It doesn't peave a land manager and poison future caching at that location, and C) It doesn't get everyone mad at you because overstepped.

I'm not surprised!!!!!
I wasn't trying to surprise you. I was trying to explain that your suggestion wasn't really the best way to go; for the OP, his cache, and future caching in that park. Edited by sbell111
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I think that this is two bad pieces of advice.

 

First, if the other cachers did ask for permission, they may be able to give you good advice on how to get yours approved.

 

Second, if you get turned down, it would be better to simply notify the other cache owners of what happened. A) It gives them a chance to fix the problem (perhaps they have permission), B ) It doesn't peave a land manager and poison future caching at that location, and C) It doesn't get everyone mad at you because overstepped.

 

I'm not surprised!!!!!

 

You shouldn't be. It's the right answer.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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But what if I am told "We don't allow geocaches in our park" ?

 

One point that nobody has made yet:

 

I assume that you were told that, and that this is not really a "what if. In that case, have you seen the "policy" for yourself, or are you taking the word of one employee that may be expressing their own opinion as "policy"? It could be that the other caches asked a different "policy" setter.

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Acadia is working with GeoCachers and Geological Society of America and permits a series of virtual caches in areas they feel will support the activity without undue damage to the environment. They even allow a letterbox in the Park Office as the final cache - with a log and a special stamp for recording your completion if you demonstrate you visited each virtual cache

 

However, they do remove physical caches.

 

http://www.nature.nps.gov/YearinReview/YIR2006/01_l.html

 

“...most units of the National Park System, including Acadia, do not permit geocaching.

 

Despite the prohibition against geocaching in Acadia, unauthorized geocaches are often located within national park boundaries. Since 2000, park rangers have found and removed at least 17 physical geocaches from Acadia National Park lands.

 

It is clear that the Park Service is aware of the this website and GeoCaching.com and fully capable of locating and removing illegal caches.

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I think that this is two bad pieces of advice.

 

First, if the other cachers did ask for permission, they may be able to give you good advice on how to get yours approved.

 

Second, if you get turned down, it would be better to simply notify the other cache owners of what happened. A) It gives them a chance to fix the problem (perhaps they have permission), B ) It doesn't peave a land manager and poison future caching at that location, and C) It doesn't get everyone mad at you because overstepped.

 

I'm not surprised!!!!!

 

You shouldn't be. It's the right answer.

 

Ohhhhhh, so now we've found a caching "absolute!!!!!" I thought it was all about "Shades of Gray." :D:lol::huh:

 

That said, I disagree with you, but then again that's my perogative!!!!!! ;):P:)

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I think that this is two bad pieces of advice.

 

First, if the other cachers did ask for permission, they may be able to give you good advice on how to get yours approved.

 

Second, if you get turned down, it would be better to simply notify the other cache owners of what happened. A) It gives them a chance to fix the problem (perhaps they have permission), B ) It doesn't peave a land manager and poison future caching at that location, and C) It doesn't get everyone mad at you because overstepped.

I'm not surprised!!!!!
You shouldn't be. It's the right answer.
Ohhhhhh, so now we've found a caching "absolute!!!!!" I thought it was all about "Shades of Gray." :D:lol::huh:

 

That said, I disagree with you, but then again that's my perogative!!!!!! ;):P:)

It's also your perogative to explain why you disagree, or not.
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I reckon I ought to clear up a few things:

 

- my intention is not to get caches removed that may or may not have permission to be in the park. I suppose my OP was poorly worded ("I intend to" for instance).

 

I guess the main thing I want to avoid is during the asking permission phase, I don't want to be put on the spot by the park manager asking if there are caches already in the park (I'm not much of a liar).

 

- when I posted this, I had NOT asked permission yet, so this was in fact theoretical. I asked about my first one 25 minutes ago, the 1st guy said yeah (he was familiar with geocaching), the second lady (his boss?) said let me talk to *her* boss, but the boss was out and I'll call him tomorrow.

 

I'm just trying to follow the rules (both ours and theirs) and I'm coming here for clarification and guidance.

 

Some of the subsequent responses regarding my motives are...provocative.

 

Regards to all,

 

Vickers

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Adding to my previous post and also referencing the other link provided in this thread – a few facts and observations:

 

Unclear what park the or authority the OP is involved with, but concerning the NPS which S/He referenced and linked

 

There is no current blanket NPS policy that explicitly allows or permits GeoCaching in all Parks. Each Park Administrator is left to make decisions on GC based on existing rules for protecting the resources and visitors.

 

The NPS is interested and likes the “idea” of GeoCaching. This is great news.

 

They are developing a policy on GC.

 

They are reading at Groundspeak and GeoCaching to help determine that policy.

 

Information at these two sites gives them concern that safety to individuals and poor behavior by GeoCachers on the hunt may be a significant issue when caches are placed within their Parks. So we should take care in what we say here and how we behave in the field – it makes a difference.

 

So, I think it behooves us to seek permission before placing caches on Park Lands. It seems that permission may be granted if you work with the decision makers to place them in locations that do not wreck valuable environmental or archeological sites. And, with guidance from the land managers you can include specific instructions in the Cache page to discourage bushwhacking or approaches that damage the site.

 

If you are aware of caches in the park that may not have approval I would email the owner and advise them of your concern – and as someone else said, they might have approval and be able to assist you in obtaining approval for your cache.

 

If you know of a cache that is poorly placed and causing damage to the park I would first advise the owner of the cache and if no relief comes I would advise the Park Service.

 

 

I am an avid backpacker and camper – every trip I make on the Appalachian Trail I see the damage even concerned and knowledgeable hikers do to the environment - the damage done by idiots is even worse – we all have seen the erosion caused by hikers short-cutting across switchbacks to save a few lousy steps.

 

We all quickly learn that following a “Geo Trail” can be a fast track to finding a GeoCache – so obviously our sport does impact the environment when the cache is off the beaten path – the objective is to minimize that impact or assure that it is not happening to a sensitive location.

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We all quickly learn that following a “Geo Trail” can be a fast track to finding a GeoCache – so obviously our sport does impact the environment when the cache is off the beaten path – the objective is to minimize that impact or assure that it is not happening to a sensitive location.

 

Since I've been geocaching I've been hearing about this "geotrail" problem, yet I've never encountered it in the kinds of areas where it would be a concern.

 

I've seen a handful of them and every one was when the cache was a short distance from parking (LT 50 feet) or in heavily used urban parks. They put a parking lot or a swing set there so how sensitive can the area really be?

 

From what I've observed the backcountry caches where geotrails could be a concern are visited so infrequently that the geotrails (social trails, herd paths or whatever you call them) rarely form.

 

Sorry to go too far OT, but this geotrail nonsense is constantly promoted as a fact and I've had enough discussions with anti-geocachers about the subject.

Edited by briansnat
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...I think it behooves us to seek permission before placing caches on Park Lands....

 

Permission is already granted in most parks. Parks are built for casual recreational activities, caching is a casual recreational activity. Permission granted unless they decide to create a policy specific to any particualr recreational activity. That includes caching.

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Sorry to go too far OT, but this geotrail nonsense is constantly promoted as a fact and I've had enough discussions with anti-geocachers about the subject.

 

There are no OT restrictions on my threads.

 

:unsure:

 

Ironically, in my brief geocaching experience there has been only one time where I noticed a (faint) geo-trail, and it was simultaneously (1) so far out in the woods that it probably wouldn't make a difference to the ecosystem, and (2) so close to a 4-lane toll road that any environmental degradation discussion vis-a-vis the proximity the toll road would be laughable.

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I think that this is two bad pieces of advice.

 

First, if the other cachers did ask for permission, they may be able to give you good advice on how to get yours approved.

 

Second, if you get turned down, it would be better to simply notify the other cache owners of what happened. A) It gives them a chance to fix the problem (perhaps they have permission), B ) It doesn't peave a land manager and poison future caching at that location, and C) It doesn't get everyone mad at you because overstepped.

 

I'm not surprised!!!!!

 

You shouldn't be. It's the right answer.

 

Ohhhhhh, so now we've found a caching "absolute!!!!!" I thought it was all about "Shades of Gray." :unsure::D:D

 

That said, I disagree with you, but then again that's my perogative!!!!!! :D:D:D

Maybe I should have said "It's the right answer in this case". You would still disagree, but what the heck. :unsure:

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That's another question.

 

If they ask tell them. Caching is a viable activity and there is nothing secret about it.

 

To clarify: I'm presupposing this question would be posed AFTER I was denied permission for my cache.

 

In that case, just give 'em name, rank (number of finds), and geocaching userid.

 

(regarding geotrails... deer leave trails in the parks. I say get rid of the deer!)

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