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Are we allowing the degradation of geocaching?


Cedar Grove Seekers
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I can assure you that your numbers, even if all of them are false, would ever degrade the hobby for me.

 

Who is talking about numbers? Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers. It has nothing whatsoever to do with numbers. It's a practical issue.

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The actions of others degrade the hobby for me only if I allow it to. I don't waste my time worrying about the legitimacy of someone else's entries. If I was aware of someone using substandard components while they were building aircraft, then my panties would be in the requisite bunch.

 

Put it in perspective people. Go ahead, run to Mommy and cry because Billy isn't playing fair.

Cheating at caching, cheating on aircraft. The thought process is similar. There may be some irony in that the FAA relies on logs and records to help ensure the integrity of the aircraft.

 

People can die if you fake aircraft designs. Subtle difference from GeoCaching fake logs.

 

DUH.

 

Forgive me while I LMAO.

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I can assure you that your numbers, even if all of them are false, would ever degrade the hobby for me.

 

Who is talking about numbers? Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers. It has nothing whatsoever to do with numbers. It's a practical issue.

 

Who is the pro phony brigade?

 

partial list will be OK.

 

Answering the other posted question will be better.

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I can assure you that your numbers, even if all of them are false, would ever degrade the hobby for me.

 

Who is talking about numbers? Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers. It has nothing whatsoever to do with numbers. It's a practical issue.

 

I already posted a post of yours from many years ago where you condemned the numbers chasers, so take care. This is the Internet. You were talking about numbers way back.

 

Does that make you a pro phony log brigade member?

 

I think not.

 

I am certainly not a pro phony log brigade member and I trust that you do not place me there, sir!

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....People can die if you fake aircraft designs. Subtle difference from GeoCaching fake logs.

 

DUH.

 

Forgive me while I LMAO.

 

A&P Mechanics maintain aircraft. They help keep the plane's log. Truth in logging is not a hard concept to comprehend. The principal is the same be it a trucker, mechanic, or cacher.

 

It's good to know where you stand.

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If some knucklehead wants to cheat on his/her count. Why is it any of my buisness. I have 22 caches. I don't check every online entry against the logbook. Who are they cheating? Me, you, No they are cheating themselves. It must get them aroused in some way. Yes, I suppose it bothers me a little too but why don't we focus our attention to something we can make a difference in, like eliminating cheating at chess,checkers, or hopskotch.

 

When a person logs a "Found it" he is essentially telling the geocaching community that the cache is there. That can entice people into wasting their time searching for a cache that is missing. I know of one geocacher who was lured into a fruitless 100 mile round trip because someone logged a false find on a cache. I wasted my gas and nearly an hour of my time searching for a cache that was gone. Had I seen recent DNFs I would have chosen to hunt a different cache, but the cache had recent "found its" that turned out to be bogus.

 

It also affects cache owners. If the cache is missing, a bogus find can delay needed maintenance. A cache of mine had several DNFs and I was about to head out there and check on it when a "found it" log appeared. Great! No problem, so I don't have to worry about it. Well something about the log was fishy to me, so I checked into it and it turned out to be a phony find. There actually was a problem with the cache that I nearly ignored thanks to some liar who gets his jollies by logging fake finds.

 

So by logging phony finds uou are screwing with your fellow geocachers. This game isn't solitaire. Our actions do not occur in a vacuum. What we do can and does affect other geocachers.

 

What did you do about the fishy phony logger?

 

What happened to the 2 false loggers as a result of their false logs?

 

(If the cache and logs were gone, how do you know the logs were false?)

 

By the bye, I am new and I have found at least one cache that had several DNF's as the last logs. Two of the DNF's stated that the cache was MIA and had been muggled. They were wrong. If I had believed them and failed to give it a look I would have been denied the opportunity to find a cache.

 

What happened to the fishy phony logger?

 

Did I miss the post?

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....People can die if you fake aircraft designs. Subtle difference from GeoCaching fake logs.

 

DUH.

 

Forgive me while I LMAO.

 

A&P Mechanics maintain aircraft. They help keep the plane's log. Truth in logging is not a hard concept to comprehend. The principal is the same be it a trucker, mechanic, or cacher.

 

It's good to know where you stand.

 

What?

 

From the "Princess Bride" "You have a dizzying intellect".

 

Where do I stand?

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...Where do I stand?

 

Laughing your a** off that a cacher being honest with their log is the same concept as keeping an honest air craft log. It means you have a limit below which 'you don't mind' dishonestly in logs. It means that there is a point at which the right thing doesn't matter to you.

 

Even if you don't stand for that, It's what you are saying. That's close enough for me. I believe you and your dizzying intellect.

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....People can die if you fake aircraft designs. Subtle difference from GeoCaching fake logs.

 

DUH.

 

Forgive me while I LMAO.

 

A&P Mechanics maintain aircraft. They help keep the plane's log. Truth in logging is not a hard concept to comprehend. The principal is the same be it a trucker, mechanic, or cacher.

 

It's good to know where you stand.

 

We were not limited to A&P mechanics, but that is OK

 

A&P mechanics - sign on to specific laws and regulations - deviations can cost lives.

 

Truckers - sign on to specific laws and regulations - deviations can cost lives.

 

Cachers - just a hobby, no laws rules or regulations - deviations can cause someone to go to a spot and not find a worthless box of trinkets.

 

DUH

 

You think the first 2 are even remotely connected to the third?

 

Are you DAFT?

 

Do you think ...

 

Oh never mind.

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...Where do I stand?

 

Laughing your a** off that a cacher being honest with their log is the same concept as keeping an honest air craft log. It means you have a limit below which 'you don't mind' dishonestly in logs. It means that there is a point at which the right thing doesn't matter to you.

 

Even if you don't stand for that, It's what you are saying. That's close enough for me. I believe you and your dizzying intellect.

Well, you are wrong.

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Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers?

Wait ... you’re saying there are people here who actually endorse and promote bogus find logs? Who are these people to whom you refer who are "pro phony logs?"

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...Where do I stand?

 

Laughing your a** off that a cacher being honest with their log is the same concept as keeping an honest air craft log. It means you have a limit below which 'you don't mind' dishonestly in logs. It means that there is a point at which the right thing doesn't matter to you.

 

Even if you don't stand for that, It's what you are saying. That's close enough for me. I believe you and your dizzying intellect.

Well, you are wrong.

 

Not according to what you have said in this thread.

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...Where do I stand?
Laughing your a** off that a cacher being honest with their log is the same concept as keeping an honest air craft log. It means you have a limit below which 'you don't mind' dishonestly in logs. It means that there is a point at which the right thing doesn't matter to you.

 

Even if you don't stand for that, It's what you are saying. That's close enough for me. I believe you and your dizzying intellect.

Well, you are wrong.
Well, there's a post that shows a great deal of thought an intelligence. A post to be proud of, for sure. It goes right up there with
DUH

 

...

 

Are you DAFT?

A study in eloquence.

 

Can you tell I disagree with you, HopsMaltYeast?

 

Of course, since in neither post you bother to back up your opinion, I see no reason to back up mine. :P

 

Oh, running around calling people daft and the like might be seen as a violation of the "respect" guidelines.

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Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers?

Wait ... you’re saying there are people here who actually endorse and promote bogus find logs? Who are these people to whom you refer who are "pro phony logs?"

 

As my grandaddy used to say: Iffn' ya ain't agin' it, yer fer it.

 

What is really funny was that my grandaddy was a Polish immigrant. I don't know why he talked like that.

 

What happened to the fishy phony logger?

 

Did I miss the post?

 

I hear he was beaten, tarred and feathered, but I have an alibi that night.

Edited by briansnat
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The actions of others degrade the hobby for me only if I allow it to. I don't waste my time worrying about the legitimacy of someone else's entries. If I was aware of someone using substandard components while they were building aircraft, then my panties would be in the requisite bunch.

 

Put it in perspective people. Go ahead, run to Mommy and cry because Billy isn't playing fair.

Cheating at caching, cheating on aircraft. The thought process is similar. There may be some irony in that the FAA relies on logs and records to help ensure the integrity of the aircraft.

 

Billy the Cacher, Billy the A&P Mechanic either way Someone needs to be willing to point out when Billy has his head up his hind quarters. Else they are just helping Billy ply his trade.

 

Billy doesn't degrade you. Merely your experience.

Bogus cache logs pose a threat equal to that of falsified aircraft maintenance records? :)

 

Let me get this straight: You're suggesting that innocent people could die anytime there is not a signature in a cache somewhere to match each cacher's online find log? :P

 

I can’t see how falsifying an airplane’s maintenance record is at all analogous to falsifying one’s own hobby diary. Please explain it to me. I can’t wait to hear this …

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.......A&P mechanics - sign on to specific laws and regulations - deviations can cost lives.

 

Truckers - sign on to specific laws and regulations - deviations can cost lives.

 

Cachers - just a hobby, no laws rules or regulations - deviations can cause someone to go to a spot and not find a worthless box of trinkets....

 

What all three have in common is that honesty in logging is a good thing. Simple as that.

 

Keeping a crappy maintainence log on an aircraft that's perfectly maintained isn't really much of an issue from a public safety standpoint. They are important because the FAA relies on the log to tell an accurate story about the air craft. Much like some cache owners like having an accurate history on their caches.

 

Honesty in logging. Are you for it?

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I can’t see how falsifying an airplane’s maintenance record is at all analogous to falsifying one’s own hobby diary. Please explain it to me. I can’t wait to hear this …
I've heard it said "If you can't take care of the little things, why should you be trusted with the big things?"

 

Just because the examples don't have the same result doesn't mean they aren't both talking about values and one's ability to compromise them.

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...Where do I stand?

 

Laughing your a** off that a cacher being honest with their log is the same concept as keeping an honest air craft log. It means you have a limit below which 'you don't mind' dishonestly in logs. It means that there is a point at which the right thing doesn't matter to you.

 

Even if you don't stand for that, It's what you are saying. That's close enough for me. I believe you and your dizzying intellect.

 

Doubly you are wrong.

 

You have no idea where I stand. Close or far.

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Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers?

Wait ... you’re saying there are people here who actually endorse and promote bogus find logs? Who are these people to whom you refer who are "pro phony logs?"

As my grandaddy used to say: Iffn' ya ain't agin' it, yer fer it.

Well your grandaddy was wrong. I'm not for bogus finds. I don't endorse them. I delete them on my caches if I can identify them.

 

But I'm not against most of the rest of them in this game. Some appear to cause some difficulty for others, but most seem to be completely harmless to me and my caching game.

 

If they get deleted, fine. If they stay, fine. See, I aint fer it, and I aint agin it.

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The actions of others degrade the hobby for me only if I allow it to. I don't waste my time worrying about the legitimacy of someone else's entries. If I was aware of someone using substandard components while they were building aircraft, then my panties would be in the requisite bunch.

 

Put it in perspective people. Go ahead, run to Mommy and cry because Billy isn't playing fair.

Cheating at caching, cheating on aircraft. The thought process is similar. There may be some irony in that the FAA relies on logs and records to help ensure the integrity of the aircraft.

 

Billy the Cacher, Billy the A&P Mechanic either way Someone needs to be willing to point out when Billy has his head up his hind quarters. Else they are just helping Billy ply his trade.

 

Billy doesn't degrade you. Merely your experience.

Bogus cache logs pose a threat equal to that of falsified aircraft maintenance records? :)

 

Let me get this straight: You're suggesting that innocent people could die anytime there is not a signature in a cache somewhere to match each cacher's online find log? :P

 

I can’t see how falsifying an airplane’s maintenance record is at all analogous to falsifying one’s own hobby diary. Please explain it to me. I can’t wait to hear this …

 

Lying in a log is lying in a log. The concept is the same for caching as it is for recording the results of a test to ensure quality in construction. What I'm saying is that it should be called out at all levels. From a cache log to that test on a weld on a bridge. That the concept of lying about logs is not rewarded at any level.

 

The potential results of false reports and logs (it's normally not hte log itself, it's the behavior being lied about that's the problem) is another thing. If you do the right thing on all logs it's a non issue. It's only when you want to find out when it's ok to lie in a log that it's important what a fake log leads too.

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.......A&P mechanics - sign on to specific laws and regulations - deviations can cost lives.

 

Truckers - sign on to specific laws and regulations - deviations can cost lives.

 

Cachers - just a hobby, no laws rules or regulations - deviations can cause someone to go to a spot and not find a worthless box of trinkets....

 

What all three have in common is that honesty in logging is a good thing. Simple as that.

 

Keeping a crappy maintainence log on an aircraft that's perfectly maintained isn't really much of an issue from a public safety standpoint. They are important because the FAA relies on the log to tell an accurate story about the air craft. Much like some cache owners like having an accurate history on their caches.

 

Honesty in logging. Are you for it?

 

Yes, I am for honesty in logging on GeoCach.

 

And I am still waiting for either your apology for saying I condone lying or for evidence that I said I condone lying.

 

I think lying is lying.

 

I do not think lying about GeoCaching finds is even remotely close to lying about aircraft design tests, aircraft maintenance logs or trucking logs.

 

To say they have the same weight and consequence goes beyond daft and dives into delusional in my opinion.

 

And I think it makes the proposer of such comparisons look a little bit silly, in my opinion.

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Maybe one or all of the folks that are so put out with bogus logs and finders who fail to log found caches online, (you folks that think they or the hobby is degraded), should start sending letters or emails to the folks that offend them with bogus logs and tell them they are breaking the rules?

 

Maybe they would stop if they knew it was wrong and that it upset you.

 

Oops, you probably can’t do that because it is not a requirement to log a find online.

 

Oops, it is not against the rules to post a fictionalized report of a find or the experience.

 

Frequently Asked Questions About Geocaching

http://www.geocaching.com/faq/

What is Geocaching?

Geocaching is an entertaining adventure game for gps users. Participating in a cache hunt is a good way to take advantage of the wonderful features and capability of a gps unit. The basic idea is to have individuals and organizations set up caches all over the world and share the locations of these caches on the internet. GPS users can then use the location coordinates to find the caches. Once found, a cache may provide the visitor with a wide variety of rewards. All the visitor is asked to do is if they get something they should try to leave something for the cache.

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

1. Take something from the cache

2. Leave something in the cache

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

Where you place a cache is up to you.

 

Are there any variations in the game?

 

YES! We strongly encourage it, actually. Geocaching is a game that constantly reinvents itself, and the rules are very flexible. If you have a new idea on how to place a cache, or a new game using GPS units, we'd love to hear about it.

 

Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines

Guidelines last updated February 21, 2007

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Cache Maintenance

The cache owner will assume all responsibility of their cache listings.

 

The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

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...Where do I stand?

 

Laughing your a** off that a cacher being honest with their log is the same concept as keeping an honest air craft log. It means you have a limit below which 'you don't mind' dishonestly in logs. It means that there is a point at which the right thing doesn't matter to you.

 

Even if you don't stand for that, It's what you are saying. That's close enough for me. I believe you and your dizzying intellect.

 

Doubly you are wrong.

 

You have no idea where I stand. Close or far.

Your posts tell a story about who you are and what you stand for. Exactly like the cache logs we are debating. One thing you have chosen to do is that in more than a few posts in this you rather clumsily threw out some insults that didn't help your argument, your cause, or the picture of who you are that you are painting in these forums. You have said other things as well. Do I have a complete picture? No. But I've got enough of one to work with.

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Maybe one or all of the folks that are so put out with bogus logs and finders who fail to log found caches online, (you folks that think they or the hobby is degraded), should start sending letters or emails to the folks that offend them with bogus logs and tell them they are breaking the rules?

 

Maybe they would stop if they knew it was wrong and that it upset you.

 

Oops, you probably can’t do that because it is not a requirement to log a find online.

 

Oops, it is not against the rules to post a fictionalized report of a find or the experience.

 

Frequently Asked Questions About Geocaching

http://www.geocaching.com/faq/

What is Geocaching?

Geocaching is an entertaining adventure game for gps users. Participating in a cache hunt is a good way to take advantage of the wonderful features and capability of a gps unit. The basic idea is to have individuals and organizations set up caches all over the world and share the locations of these caches on the internet. GPS users can then use the location coordinates to find the caches. Once found, a cache may provide the visitor with a wide variety of rewards. All the visitor is asked to do is if they get something they should try to leave something for the cache.

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

1. Take something from the cache

2. Leave something in the cache

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

Where you place a cache is up to you.

 

Are there any variations in the game?

 

YES! We strongly encourage it, actually. Geocaching is a game that constantly reinvents itself, and the rules are very flexible. If you have a new idea on how to place a cache, or a new game using GPS units, we'd love to hear about it.

 

Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines

Guidelines last updated February 21, 2007

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Cache Maintenance

The cache owner will assume all responsibility of their cache listings.

 

The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

 

I didn't see any thing in the rules that said the cache finder had to log anything online or that if they did it had to be truthful.

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...Where do I stand?

 

Laughing your a** off that a cacher being honest with their log is the same concept as keeping an honest air craft log. It means you have a limit below which 'you don't mind' dishonestly in logs. It means that there is a point at which the right thing doesn't matter to you.

 

Even if you don't stand for that, It's what you are saying. That's close enough for me. I believe you and your dizzying intellect.

 

Doubly you are wrong.

 

You have no idea where I stand. Close or far.

Your posts tell a story about who you are and what you stand for. Exactly like the cache logs we are debating. One thing you have chosen to do is that in more than a few posts in this you rather clumsily threw out some insults that didn't help your argument, your cause, or the picture of who you are that you are painting in these forums. You have said other things as well. Do I have a complete picture? No. But I've got enough of one to work with.

 

Well we are together on one point. Neither of us have any idea what you are talking about.

 

Makes no sense to me.

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...Honesty in logging. Are you for it?

 

Yes, I am for honesty in logging on GeoCach.

 

And I am still waiting for either your apology for saying I condone lying or for evidence that I said I condone lying.

 

I think lying is lying.

 

I do not think lying about GeoCaching finds is even remotely close to lying about aircraft design tests, aircraft maintenance logs or trucking logs....

 

Now we have gotten somewhere.

 

You are for honest logging. Stop with that concept. There is no need to take it any further when you hit your second statement.

Lying in a cache log is exactly like lying in any other log. Lying is lying. You said it above.

 

My entire point was that lying in any log should be discouraged. That people should call it out when they find it. The level of punishment for the log's being lied about is an entirely different discussion. As you correctly pointed out, whats at stake changes. IF you are honest in your logging the consequences for lying don't even come into play.

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Wow, this is one serious thread!

 

In the Chicagoland area we have cachers with thousands of finds--they are numbers players. They may log an event cache 150 times, because the event had 150 event-only caches, which a mob went around and logged. And i'm sure we have other people who log caches they never visited, have their friends/co-conspirators sign them into, and so on.

 

But so what? I honestly don't see how any of that affects me. I'm not competing with anybody, and I certainly don't see my number of caches found as being some sort of status symbol. So if some people derive a sense of self-worth from finding thousands of caches, they can be my guest. I don't think they are degrading the game.

 

Now, maybe that's because I personally believe that anybody with five thousand finds is either pumping their numbers, or they are in serious need of a life. :P But, unless it makes hiders less willing to hide, I could care less.

Edited by imajeep
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Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers?

Wait ... you’re saying there are people here who actually endorse and promote bogus find logs? Who are these people to whom you refer who are "pro phony logs?"

I took a bit of time off this afternoon (unfortunately is was not spent geocaching). What happened to the good will this morning? I was about to post the it seems we argree that bogus logs (defined by the OP as found it logs where the logger was never at the cache) do happen. We agree that some these logs can have a negative impact on the cache owner and others that look for the cache. We probably don't agree as to whether these logs are degrading geocaching. Most would probably allow that the logs that have a negative impact on the cache owner and others seeking the cache do degrade the experience of those cachers.

 

We have a number of people who condemn all false loggers as pathologic liars. Several believe the motivation to lie is to increase ones numbers. Sometimes they refer to people who log false found it logs as cheaters. To some this appears to be saying false logs are bad because they give you an unfair advantage in the find count.

 

Let me say right now that neither side is motivated by numbers.

 

People who oppose bogus logs do so because they feel that all geocaching logs should be honest (except perhaps a few liars caches, and the real puritans even oppose those). It is a noble goal to see the everyone who post to the Geocaching online log is honest.

 

Some of the instances of bogus logs are made by people who honestly believe they are following the rules as to what is a find. They are interpreting the guidelines as saying that a cache owner is the one who gets to rule whether a log is legitimate or not. Armchair virtuals are seen as simply a variation of the game that some virtual owners allow. Some in Germany and elsewhere, seem to feel that it is OK to make the armchair log and let the owner delete it if he doesn't want to allow it. Some cachers log finds as a team. If anyone on the team finds the cache, their understanding is that the team found the cache. Later if the team splits up they may just not remember who found which cache. A cacher asks his none cacher friend to find a cache for him to retrieve some travel bugs. The non-cacher finds the cache. The cacher logs a find on his account because he feel the cache was found on his behalf and he now has the travel bugs that he plans on moving. The cache owner and others are probably more interested that the cache was found and the travel bugs taken than who actually found the cache. By reading the log they can see that is was actually a friend of the cacher.

 

The pro phony log brigade is probably not in favor of lying. Instead they object to puritanical, judgmental approach that condemns cachers as cheaters who may just be logging finds for caches they personally did not visit or did not find because of their understanding of the way the game is play. There are no "official" rules for using the online logs on the website. Because of this it is inevitable that there will be variations in how the log is used. If a bogus log is not going to cause any significant problems for others, why not just ignore these and let others who choose to have their own rules for logging a found it log online. If logging armchair virtuals or recording a find a friend made on you behalf really and truly degrades the game, no one has made the case yet. Yes some virtuals that had armchair logs on them were archived. But it has been shown that these were archive because there was no owner maintaining them or in one instance that the owner choose to archive the cache instead of maintaining it.

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...Honesty in logging. Are you for it?

 

Yes, I am for honesty in logging on GeoCach.

 

And I am still waiting for either your apology for saying I condone lying or for evidence that I said I condone lying.

 

I think lying is lying.

 

I do not think lying about GeoCaching finds is even remotely close to lying about aircraft design tests, aircraft maintenance logs or trucking logs....

 

Now we have gotten somewhere.

 

You are for honest logging. Stop with that concept. There is no need to take it any further when you hit your second statement.

Lying in a cache log is exactly like lying in any other log. Lying is lying. You said it above.

 

My entire point was that lying in any log should be discouraged. That people should call it out when they find it. The level of punishment for the log's being lied about is an entirely different discussion. As you correctly pointed out, whats at stake changes. IF you are honest in your logging the consequences for lying don't even come into play.

 

No, not even close.

 

I am willing to pay someone to make sure the plane I am flying on is safe and the folks designing and maintaining it were certified and told the truth on their logs and certificates.

 

For GeoCaching - I am willing to trust my instincts for the price of a few gallons of gas.

 

Get real.

 

They ain't the same.

 

I don't give 2 dog fecal deposits if the GeoCache cache I am looking for has only true logs.

 

I don't care.

 

It is not worth the effort to worry about it.

 

I do give a dog fecal deposit if the wing of an aircraft with my daughter on it had a falsified maintenace log or faked engineering studies.

 

If you can not see the difference in those two circumstances then I cannot help you understand.

 

 

To think a bogus GeoCache log is the same as having a wing fall off an airplane and result in dozens of people dying needlessly is just beyond my ability to comprehend.

Edited by HopsMaltYeast
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Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers?

Wait ... you’re saying there are people here who actually endorse and promote bogus find logs? Who are these people to whom you refer who are "pro phony logs?"

As my grandaddy used to say: Iffn' ya ain't agin' it, yer fer it.

So then, by that logic, you're saying that it is not possible for a person to be neither for nor against a thing?

 

I have plainly posted many times in this thread that I do not promote, endorse, support or recommend logging bogus finds online. Do you believe I am insincere? In addition to previously calling me a troll, are you now calling me a liar as well?

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I don't give 2 dog fecal deposits if the GeoCache cache I am looking for has only true logs.

 

I don't care.

 

It is not worth the effort to worry about it.

 

I do give a dog fecal deposit if the wing of an aircraft with my daughter on it had a falsified maintenace log or faked engineering studies.

 

If you can not see the difference in those two circumstances then I cannot help you understand.

 

 

To think a bogus GeoCache log is the same as having a wing fall off an airplane and result in dozens of people dying needlessly is just beyond my ability to comprehend.

Just you wait till someone gets electrocuted on one of those green electric transformer boxes because of a fake log that says "TFTC, just like the many others I found hidden like this". And the cache was really under a fake rock several feet away from the box. :P

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Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers?

Wait ... you’re saying there are people here who actually endorse and promote bogus find logs? Who are these people to whom you refer who are "pro phony logs?"

I took a bit of time off this afternoon (unfortunately is was not spent geocaching). What happened to the good will this morning?

What happened is that someone, apparently unhappy with sitting back and watching peace break out in the thread, has decided to pull the pin on a brand new strawman and toss it into the crowd.

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I don't give 2 dog fecal deposits if the GeoCache cache I am looking for has only true logs.

 

I don't care.

 

It is not worth the effort to worry about it.

 

I do give a dog fecal deposit if the wing of an aircraft with my daughter on it had a falsified maintenace log or faked engineering studies.

 

If you can not see the difference in those two circumstances then I cannot help you understand.

 

 

To think a bogus GeoCache log is the same as having a wing fall off an airplane and result in dozens of people dying needlessly is just beyond my ability to comprehend.

Just you wait till someone gets electrocuted on one of those green electric transformer boxes because of a fake log that says "TFTC, just like the many others I found hidden like this". And the cache was really under a fake rock several feet away from the box. :P

Huh?

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Bogus cache logs pose a threat equal to that of falsified aircraft maintenance records? :)

 

Let me get this straight: You're suggesting that innocent people could die anytime there is not a signature in a cache somewhere to match each cacher's online find log? :P

 

I can’t see how falsifying an airplane’s maintenance record is at all analogous to falsifying one’s own hobby diary. Please explain it to me. I can’t wait to hear this …

 

Even "I" understood what he said. He said the thought process was similar between falsifying cache logs and aircraft maintenance records. He didn't say the results were the same. Sheeeesh. Noone is saying that the results are the same. I was raised that lying is lying regardless of what you are lying about. Why can't you agree with that? Your strange objections and comments make people think that you are justifying the behavior (I understand that you are not), but if that's the case, why can't you agree with the simple premise that lying, in ANY fashion, is wrong?

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I don't give 2 dog fecal deposits if the GeoCache cache I am looking for has only true logs.

 

I don't care.

 

It is not worth the effort to worry about it.

 

I do give a dog fecal deposit if the wing of an aircraft with my daughter on it had a falsified maintenace log or faked engineering studies.

 

If you can not see the difference in those two circumstances then I cannot help you understand.

 

 

To think a bogus GeoCache log is the same as having a wing fall off an airplane and result in dozens of people dying needlessly is just beyond my ability to comprehend.

Just you wait till someone gets electrocuted on one of those green electric transformer boxes because of a fake log that says "TFTC, just like the many others I found hidden like this". And the cache was really under a fake rock several feet away from the box. :P

 

You have to be kidding, right?

 

A log of "TFTC, just like the many others I found hidden like this". means I should go grab electrical wires.

 

I see a 2008 Darwin Awards candidate in the making.

Now I get it ;-). Yes it would be make me feel concerned.

 

Yes, I will be equally concerned when someone looks for a cache on the sand flats in Florida when an electrical storm is overhead.

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Wow, this is one serious thread!

 

In the Chicagoland area we have cachers with thousands of finds--they are numbers players. They may log an event cache 150 times, because the event had 150 event-only caches, which a mob went around and logged. And i'm sure we have other people who log caches they never visited, have their friends/co-conspirators sign them into, and so on.

 

But so what? I honestly don't see how any of that affects me. I'm not competing with anybody, and I certainly don't see my number of caches found as being some sort of status symbol. So if some people derive a sense of self-worth from finding thousands of caches, they can be my guest. I don't think they are degrading the game.

 

Now, maybe that's because I personally believe that anybody with five thousand finds is either pumping their numbers, or they are in serious need of a life. :P But, unless it makes hiders less willing to hide, I could care less.

So you see someone with 5000 finds as either pumping their numbers, or in serious need of a life? It seems to me that false logging has contributed to your diminished opinion of even legitimate cachers with many finds. That's unfair, yet another example of how false logs are causing the degradation of geocaching.

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Bogus cache logs pose a threat equal to that of falsified aircraft maintenance records? :)

 

Let me get this straight: You're suggesting that innocent people could die anytime there is not a signature in a cache somewhere to match each cacher's online find log? :P

 

I can’t see how falsifying an airplane’s maintenance record is at all analogous to falsifying one’s own hobby diary. Please explain it to me. I can’t wait to hear this …

 

Lying in a log is lying in a log. The concept is the same for caching as it is for recording the results of a test to ensure quality in construction. What I'm saying is that it should be called out at all levels. From a cache log to that test on a weld on a bridge. That the concept of lying about logs is not rewarded at any level.

 

The potential results of false reports and logs (it's normally not hte log itself, it's the behavior being lied about that's the problem) is another thing. If you do the right thing on all logs it's a non issue. It's only when you want to find out when it's ok to lie in a log that it's important what a fake log leads too.

Lying in an aircraft maintenance record poses a direct threat to people’s lives.

 

Lying online that one has found a geocache poses no such threat. Lying online that one has found a geocache is more like lying to oneself in one’s own diary, or lying to others as to whether one is wearing the correct day-of-the-week underwear. Unless there is some practical inconvenience caused, it just doesn’t matter.

 

To say that “lying in a log is lying in a log” is a nonsensical generalization. It’s like saying “public nudity is public nudity.” I am fairly confident that everyone in this thread will agree that walking down Broadway or Rodeo Drive in the buff is bad, but is there anyone here who will tell me that taking a 'liquid pit stop' behind a tree in the forest when there is no one else around is the ethical equivalent to streaking downtown?

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Bogus cache logs pose a threat equal to that of falsified aircraft maintenance records? :)

 

Let me get this straight: You're suggesting that innocent people could die anytime there is not a signature in a cache somewhere to match each cacher's online find log? :P

 

I can’t see how falsifying an airplane’s maintenance record is at all analogous to falsifying one’s own hobby diary. Please explain it to me. I can’t wait to hear this …

 

Even "I" understood what he said. He said the thought process was similar between falsifying cache logs and aircraft maintenance records. He didn't say the results were the same. Sheeeesh. Noone is saying that the results are the same. I was raised that lying is lying regardless of what you are lying about. Why can't you agree with that? Your strange objections and comments make people think that you are justifying the behavior (I understand that you are not), but if that's the case, why can't you agree with the simple premise that lying, in ANY fashion, is wrong?

Several of us are saying that if lying on a cache log doesn't bother anyone, then it doesn't bother anyone. Why can't you agree with that? The strange objections and comments by some on this thread make it seem like they think that "little white lies" have to be viewed the same as "falsifying a federal document about aircraft safety". Why can't everyone agree with the simple premise that SOME fake logs are completely benign and therefore not worth getting upset about?

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Bogus cache logs pose a threat equal to that of falsified aircraft maintenance records? :)

 

Let me get this straight: You're suggesting that innocent people could die anytime there is not a signature in a cache somewhere to match each cacher's online find log? :P

 

I can’t see how falsifying an airplane’s maintenance record is at all analogous to falsifying one’s own hobby diary. Please explain it to me. I can’t wait to hear this …

 

Even "I" understood what he said. He said the thought process was similar between falsifying cache logs and aircraft maintenance records. He didn't say the results were the same. Sheeeesh. Noone is saying that the results are the same. I was raised that lying is lying regardless of what you are lying about. Why can't you agree with that? Your strange objections and comments make people think that you are justifying the behavior (I understand that you are not), but if that's the case, why can't you agree with the simple premise that lying, in ANY fashion, is wrong?

Because that premise is wrong.

 

Some folks are trying to impose morality and ethics in a place where it simply doesn’t apply.

 

If a mechanic falsifies a maintenance record he is not only (1) risking an aviation catastrophe; he is also in violation of (2) his contract with his employer and (3) federal aviation regulations.

 

A cacher who posts a benign bogus log has done none of these things. The only person he has defrauded is himself. He has dishonored no employment contract, violated no federal geocaching regulations, defrauded no other cachers, broken no standard rules of caching competition (there are no rules of caching competition, standard or otherwise), and has taken nothing of value from anyone.

 

The process is similar? The process of lying to oneself about a cache find and the process of falsifying an airplane’s maintenance record are about as similar as, say, peeing in the woods while alone and, say, mass murder. I was raised that a crime is a crime regardless whether you think your behavior is benign – weren’t you? Isn't that the logic you're using?

 

I don’t generally condone lying. The difference between me and the self-appointed morality police is that I am able to comprehend that some lies just don’t matter.

 

If I’m at the gym and some dude walks by bragging that he’s just done 200 push-ups that I didn’t witness, I don’t give a flop whether he’s fudging his numbers or not. He knows what he really did, and neither the truth nor the lie matters to me, you, the butcher, the baker, the GPS maker, or anyone else.

Edited by KBI
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If some knucklehead wants to cheat on his/her count. Why is it any of my buisness. I have 22 caches. I don't check every online entry against the logbook. Who are they cheating? Me, you, No they are cheating themselves. It must get them aroused in some way. Yes, I suppose it bothers me a little too but why don't we focus our attention to something we can make a difference in, like eliminating cheating at chess,checkers, or hopskotch.

 

When a person logs a "Found it" he is essentially telling the geocaching community that the cache is there. That can entice people into wasting their time searching for a cache that is missing. I know of one geocacher who was lured into a fruitless 100 mile round trip because someone logged a false find on a cache. I wasted my gas and nearly an hour of my time searching for a cache that was gone. Had I seen recent DNFs I would have chosen to hunt a different cache, but the cache had recent "found its" that turned out to be bogus.

 

It also affects cache owners. If the cache is missing, a bogus find can delay needed maintenance. A cache of mine had several DNFs and I was about to head out there and check on it when a "found it" log appeared. Great! No problem, so I don't have to worry about it. Well something about the log was fishy to me, so I checked into it and it turned out to be a phony find. There actually was a problem with the cache that I nearly ignored thanks to some liar who gets his jollies by logging fake finds.

 

So by logging phony finds uou are screwing with your fellow geocachers. This game isn't solitaire. Our actions do not occur in a vacuum. What we do can and does affect other geocachers.

 

What did you do about the fishy phony logger?

 

What happened to the 2 false loggers as a result of their false logs?

 

(If the cache and logs were gone, how do you know the logs were false?)

 

By the bye, I am new and I have found at least one cache that had several DNF's as the last logs. Two of the DNF's stated that the cache was MIA and had been muggled. They were wrong. If I had believed them and failed to give it a look I would have been denied the opportunity to find a cache.

 

What happened to the fishy phony logger?

 

Did I miss the post?

 

So, since you have not responded, I guess you did nothing.

 

Your only option was to delete a post.

 

Did you do even that?

 

Do you think that would make a significant difference?

 

The truth is that if you look only at the cache reporter and the cache owner, your will find:

 

The Cache owner has all the responsibility and all the power over the cache finders.

 

The cache finder has no responsibility or power as a cache reporter online.

 

The cache finder may log a false find without breaking any rules or guidelines.

 

The cache owner has total responsibility and power over finder logs.

 

To say that the cache owner is a victim in this light is ridiculous to me.

 

The cache owner can delete any log for any reason if the cache owner thinks it is bogus.

 

The cache owner designs the cache and defines what is required to qualify as a find.

 

The Cache owner is responsible for maintaining the cache.

 

The cache owner can define the find in a way that prevents bogus armchair finds.

 

The cache owner can decide if a log is bogus and delete it.

 

The false logger has no power except that folks are talking about them.

 

I don’t know how folks can say anyone is blaming the victim when one says the person with all the power and authority should exercise that authority to support the policy and if they don’t then they are failing the policy.

 

I think the folks that say things are going to heck in a hand basket are pretty much stuck in the bushes.

 

 

A bunch of very honorable GeoCachers have said that they will not do audits of their paper logs to online logs. You cannot say they are false loggers or that they are degrading the hobby.

 

You cannot force them to do 100% audits.

 

TPTB will not make rules to force them to do 100% audits.

 

So what are you going to do – the small minority that is concerned with false logs?

 

You can’t make the false loggers stop making false logs.

 

You can’t make the log owners audit 100% of their logs.

 

Most cache owners are not going to audit paper logs to online logs.

 

I’d say you are in between a rock and a hard place.

 

Enjoy.

 

Get used to it.

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... Now, maybe that's because I personally believe that anybody with five thousand finds is either pumping their numbers, or they are in serious need of a life. :P But, unless it makes hiders less willing to hide, I could care less.

So you see someone with 5000 finds as either pumping their numbers, or in serious need of a life? It seems to me that false logging has contributed to your diminished opinion of even legitimate cachers with many finds. That's unfair, yet another example of how false logs are causing the degradation of geocaching.

Degradation? I think it would be far more reasonable to conclude that imajeep is being overly suspicious of the person with 5000 finds and should mind his own business.

 

I have seen much larger numbers next to many cachers' names, and I have never felt degraded in the slightest. Those huge numbers have never made me suspicious, jealous, morally troubled or even slightly cranky. To claim that imajeep’s unreasonable suspicion is causing "degradation" to the entire game is to make bogus assumptions about the affect of imajeep’s opinion on me.

 

The fact that the degradation you see in this case is affecting imajeep and not you or me clearly implies that the problem lies only with imajeep, and that there is no epidemic of moral breakdown.

 

Not that that's even relevant. If a person has diminished opinion of "even legitimate cachers with many finds" for whatever reason, that is the opinion-holder’s problem, not the legitimate cacher’s problem. If I am satisfied with my own legitimate caching ethics I really don’t care who chooses to make it their business to be bothered by my ethics.

 

Besides: I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic anyway. Didn't you see the laughing froggy?

Edited by KBI
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I'm going out tomorrow and I will find a cache and even if someone lied about their find I will enjoy the hunt and the find.

 

I will not feel degraded.

 

Don't try and make me feel degraded.,

 

You can't do it.

 

A find is a find. I will not lie about my find.

 

I don't give two squats about your numbers and how many finds you claim. I don't know you and I have no reason to believe or disbelieve you about your finds.

 

I just don't care about your numbers.

Edited by HopsMaltYeast
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Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers?

Wait ... you’re saying there are people here who actually endorse and promote bogus find logs? Who are these people to whom you refer who are "pro phony logs?"

I took a bit of time off this afternoon (unfortunately is was not spent geocaching). What happened to the good will this morning?

What happened is that someone, apparently unhappy with sitting back and watching peace break out in the thread, has decided to pull the pin on a brand new strawman and toss it into the crowd.

While Briansnat is completely responsible for any post he makes in this thread he bears NO responsibility for the reactions to those posts. THAT responsibility lies completely with those who respond to him.

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Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers?

Wait ... you’re saying there are people here who actually endorse and promote bogus find logs? Who are these people to whom you refer who are "pro phony logs?"

I took a bit of time off this afternoon (unfortunately is was not spent geocaching). What happened to the good will this morning?

What happened is that someone, apparently unhappy with sitting back and watching peace break out in the thread, has decided to pull the pin on a brand new strawman and toss it into the crowd.

While Briansnat is completely responsible for any post he makes in this thread he bears NO responsibility for the reactions to those posts. THAT responsibility lies completely with those who respond to him.

I disagree. In my opinion, a trolling comment is little different than yelling 'fire' in the proverbial crowded theater. If a person takes an action that he knows will cause a certain response, he's responsible for the response.

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Back to the topic:

 

A while back, I took a day to go geocaching. I had run my PQs and loaded tehm to my GPSr and pda. I chose an area that appeared to have a number of caches that I would enjoy finding and off I went.

 

Normally, I don't pay much attention to the previous logs, but this time I was hiking from cache to cache and reading each cache page including the last several logs gave me something to do. I noticed from the online logs that the most recent loggers were some 'big name' cachers had logged them a week or two prior. Strangely, per the physical logs, the most recent finder was almost two months prior.

 

What should I do about this apparent crime? What I decided to do was to have a nice little chuckle and move on with my life. Do I think that this group cheated? Probably not. The group was made up of a number of people who were all friends of the primary hider of the caches I was looking for. Perhaps they were using some definition of find that included locating the container, but not signing the log. It's not my preferred method but why should I care?

 

I ended up with a number of DNFs that day, but still had fun. If I assume that those previous cachers never actually found the caches, I guess I could feel degraded by their logs, but I realize that every cache hunt I undertake might end in a DNF. The decision to hunt those caches was mine alone.

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So, since you have not responded, I guess you did nothing.

 

Your only option was to delete a post.

 

Did you do even that?

 

Do you think that would make a significant difference?

 

The truth is that if you look only at the cache reporter and the cache owner, your will find:

 

The Cache owner has all the responsibility and all the power over the cache finders.

 

The cache finder has no responsibility or power as a cache reporter online.

 

The cache finder may log a false find without breaking any rules or guidelines.

 

The cache owner has total responsibility and power over finder logs.

 

To say that the cache owner is a victim in this light is ridiculous to me.

 

The cache owner can delete any log for any reason if the cache owner thinks it is bogus.

 

The cache owner designs the cache and defines what is required to qualify as a find.

 

The Cache owner is responsible for maintaining the cache.

 

The cache owner can define the find in a way that prevents bogus armchair finds.

 

The cache owner can decide if a log is bogus and delete it.

 

The false logger has no power except that folks are talking about them.

 

I don’t know how folks can say anyone is blaming the victim when one says the person with all the power and authority should exercise that authority to support the policy and if they don’t then they are failing the policy.

 

I think the folks that say things are going to heck in a hand basket are pretty much stuck in the bushes.

 

 

A bunch of very honorable GeoCachers have said that they will not do audits of their paper logs to online logs. You cannot say they are false loggers or that they are degrading the hobby.

 

You cannot force them to do 100% audits.

 

TPTB will not make rules to force them to do 100% audits.

 

So what are you going to do – the small minority that is concerned with false logs?

 

You can’t make the false loggers stop making false logs.

 

You can’t make the log owners audit 100% of their logs.

 

Most cache owners are not going to audit paper logs to online logs.

 

I’d say you are in between a rock and a hard place.

 

Enjoy.

 

Get used to it.

Dude, we need to switch you over to decaf.

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Why is it that the pro phony log brigade are the ones who are always bringing up numbers?

Wait ... you’re saying there are people here who actually endorse and promote bogus find logs? Who are these people to whom you refer who are "pro phony logs?"

I took a bit of time off this afternoon (unfortunately is was not spent geocaching). What happened to the good will this morning?

What happened is that someone, apparently unhappy with sitting back and watching peace break out in the thread, has decided to pull the pin on a brand new strawman and toss it into the crowd.

While Briansnat is completely responsible for any post he makes in this thread he bears NO responsibility for the reactions to those posts. THAT responsibility lies completely with those who respond to him.

I agree. Briansnat may be guity of posting a fallacy, or bogus post, to the thread. That post, however, does not cause the degradation of the thread, only the way folks want to react to it can do that.

 

If you want it to ruin your fun here, it will. If you choose to stay in the thread and have fun, you will.

Edited by Mushtang
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