Are we allowing the degradation of geocaching?

[+BlueDeuce]

It seems to me that the people that are most upset about "cheating" are only upset because it elevates someone else's Find count in relation to their own.

 

Maybe it has nothing to do with anybody's find count and they just don't like cheaters.

 

I was going to point out that I'm not upset, but I like your response better.

[+ecanderson]

It's really simple.

 

Competing against other cachers as if your find count were some kind of "score" goes against the intention of this game.

Another strong argument for scrapping public view of total counts from the geocaching.com site. While I'm a relative newbie at this, I can tell you that whoever designed the geocaching.com web pages with total finds made public was clearly more interested in the number of views/impressions (a marketing term) than the end result of publishing those counts.

 

Whether that's a necessary evil to support the site can only be answered by an understanding of the site owner's business plan. At the margin, you can bet that there are enough who would spend less time here without the bragging rights that it brings, and would reduce overall revenues from Shopzilla et al.

[+geomann1]

It seems to me that the people that are most upset about "cheating" are only upset because it elevates someone else's Find count in relation to their own.

 

Maybe it has nothing to do with anybody's find count and they just don't like cheaters.

 

I was going to point out that I'm not upset, but I like your response better.

 

You cannot cheat or be cheated unless you are competing with some one.

 

Seems to me that there are two group in geocaching, (1) the competitors who cheat or are concerned about others cheating and (2) the non-competitors from whom geocaching is a personal activity done for personal enjoyment and satisfaction. Neither group is right or wrong, its just a question of personal attitude towards the sport.

 

I fall in the latter category, so it is very silly from my perspective to get worked upon over the legitimacy of finds. It is only important to me that I found a cache to my satisfaction. I don't really care about what anyone else does so far as logging finds.

[+ecanderson]

If this were not a competition, and the numbers truly didn't matter, I can't think of a reason someone would think a false log would matter one way or the other.

More to the point -- if the numbers weren't visible to the public, there wouldn't be nearly so much incentive to fake a log in the first place. I'm beginning to form a strong opinion on this count business, now that I see what it is causing.

[+KBI]

...Cheating on the score is meaningless when there is no score. ...

Agreed. The problem is cheating on logs though.

Then who does it cheat, and why is that cheating a problem?

Good question. Cheating isn't the right word. Lying would be more accurate.

 

Those who would lie about their finds are those who would try to earn accolades they don't deserve. Because for them the numbers mean they deserve respect they have not earned.

I get accolades when I find a cache? Really?

 

I thought I was doing this for the satisfaction of getting outdoors, playing with my GPS, being in on a secret, cracking clever camouflage, solving challenging puzzles, and spending time with nice folks.

 

Accolades, huh? Where do I go to pick up my awards and medals?

 

Those who would lie about their finds are those who would try to earn accolades they don't deserve. Because for them the numbers mean they deserve respect they have not earned.

This is no different from the 'competition' argument.

 

Anyone who is finding caches for the purpose of receiving accolades, seeking respect, or otherwise attempting to impress others is making this game into more than it was intended. Just because someone views their own find count as a means of impressing people doesn’t mean I have to be impressed, nor does it mean I should care one little bit what others think of my own find count. I can only be "degraded" if I choose to participate in that modified version of the hobby.

 

Anyone who runs up their find count for comparison/competitive/accolade purposes is doing so because they have chosen to do so. If that person feels "degraded" at the existence of another comparison/competitive/accolade-cacher's bogus log, then those people are playing a different game than me. They can choose to quibble and accuse and condemn among themselves all they like; I’ll continue along my merry way finding Geocaches, completely UN-degraded.

 

Fake logs also tell a fake story about a real cache. They verify the cache is there and ready to be found. They can turn the owner off of a needed maintance trip. They can cause people to seek in vain for a cache that really is gone. Decisions are made based on the logs.

That is a perfectly valid point, one which has been addressed repeatedly in this thread. If you haven’t read the entire thread – I don’t blame you.

 

Suffice it to say that nobody in this thread has posted anything in support of misleading their fellow cachers via bad information. The objection you describe here is a practical objection, and is not in dispute.

 

The claim that is being disputed here is an ethical objection: whether bogus logs constitute a "moral degradation" of the entire game, not a potential bit of confusion over a specific cache.

 

Logs with no basis in reality serve no higher purpose.

Agreed.

 

I have no interest in posting bogus finds myself; others may have different thoughts.

 

I can't think of one good thing but I can list out bad things about fake logs.

Would one of those bad things be that you believe fake logs "morally degrade" all cachers, and therefore the entire game?

 

If so, can you help me understand why I'm supposed to be morally outraged over the way other people choose to record their caching activity?

[+BlueDeuce]

You cannot cheat or be cheated unless you are competing with some one.

 

Well, whether or not I'm affected is not the deciding factor in the definition of cheating. You can cheat at solitaire and you can also cheat Death, but I agree with RK that the better term would be 'lying'.

 

 

Edit: Corrected source

Edited February 4, 2008 by BlueDeuce

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

It seems to me that the people that are most upset about "cheating" are only upset because it elevates someone else's Find count in relation to their own.

 

Maybe it has nothing to do with anybody's find count and they just don't like cheaters.

 

I agree. I care very little about other peoples' find counts, but I still don't like cheating.

 

As someone else mentioned, a better word than cheating is lying.

 

Allowing, defending, justifying, supporting peoples' right to lie will ultimately degrade almost anything over time.

[+Driver Carries Cache]

...and why is that cheating a problem?

 

Because it's wrong.

[+ReadyOrNot]

I am not promoting bogus logging. I am merely pointing out that there is no reason for anyone to feel "degraded" simply because someone else posts a bogus find log, intentional or not, for a hidden container. Good grief, it's just an uncompetitive hide-and-seek hobby. How can one "cheat" if there is no score being kept?

quick question: What would you do if you were standing in line at the bank. For the sake of the question, line #1. There are a total of 2 lines at the bank. Someone walks into the bank and goes to the front of line #2, cutting in front of everyone else. This SHOULD not affect anyone in line #1. In fact, the effect of those in line #2 is probably fairly small (a little wasted time is all).

 

I am the type of person that will say something to the person who cut into line, even though it doesn't affect me in line #1.

It doesn't affect me in line #1, but it does directly harm the folks in line #2 who got cut off.

 

Please tell me how that is supposed to be relevant ...?

 

Didn't I make it clear that "YOU" were in line #1... What would you do?

[+Bad_CRC]

anyone else notice this thread is like the "groundhog day" movie?

 

[+ReadyOrNot]

… And I will not give up until either the bank makes the person go to the end of the line or they drag the person out on a stretcher. I am also the type of person that will spend $1000 to dispute a $100 traffic ticket out of "Principle". There are many people like me and there are many people that are not like me. You clearly are one of those people that will just stand in line and go about your business, ignoring what does not affect you directly.

I am defending a principle. It's called "telling others to mind their own business when something doesn’t concern them."

 

You clearly are one of those people who insists on seeing competition where there is none, who would get upset at someone who chooses to foul up his own caching history with a bogus log. Are you implying by your bank-line threat that you would put someone in the hospital over a bogus log, something that is clearly none of your business, and doesn’t concern you? Suppose I log a smiley on one of my own caches – are you saying that would give you justification to beat me up? Suppose I lie to myself in my own private diary – are you saying that would give you justification to beat me up? That doesn’t sound very "principled" to me.

 

If that's what you are going to take from my example, then you aren't interested in understanding the concept I was trying to convey. I think you need to open your mind a little bit here KBI.

 

You were not directly affected by what happened in line #2, so you do nothing about it and don't care about the guy that cut in line. If everyone had that attitude, noone would ever be held to account for their bad behavior.

Edited February 4, 2008 by ReadyOrNot

[+Driver Carries Cache]

It seems to me that the people that are most upset about "cheating" are only upset because it elevates someone else's Find count in relation to their own.

 

Maybe it has nothing to do with anybody's find count and they just don't like cheaters.

 

I agree. I care very little about other peoples' find counts, but I still don't like cheating.

 

As someone else mentioned, a better word than cheating is lying.

 

Allowing, defending, justifying, supporting peoples' right to lie will ultimately degrade almost anything over time.

 

I think I said the same thing back on page 2

 

And it still makes perfect sense here on page 12!

 

Maybe someone has a wonderful analogy about wearing their socks on the wrong feet while playing Monopoly in a country south of the Equator, that will shed some new light on things!

 

May I be the first to bring up our old friend... the deceased equine and his postmortem flogging?

 

DCC

[+BlueDeuce]

anyone else notice this thread is like the "groundhog day" movie?

 

 

Seriously, just an hour ago I was thinking this thread reminded me of a Marx Brother's movie.

 

Chico : I object.

 

Prosecutor : You object? On what grounds?

 

Chico : I couldn’t think of anything else to say.

 

Groucho : Objection sustained.

 

Prosecutor : Your majesty, you sustain the objection?

 

Groucho : Sure, I couldn’t think of anything else to say either.

 

---

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go meet my solitaire partner.

Edited February 5, 2008 by BlueDeuce

[+HopsMaltYeast]

... I am talking about cachers logging finds when they didn’t even come anywhere close to the cache. ...

 

I’ve seen these false logs, and I’ve participated in many forum discussions on these issues, ...

 

I am not proposing that everyone must adhere to a very strict set of rules, but false logs are getting a little ridiculous. ...

 

Hundreds of post later -

 

Please define how false logging has gotten ridiculous? 10% of logged finds are false? 1%? 0.001%? 1 false log ever in the history of logging?

 

How many false logs have you seen? Do you have hard evidence to support that or is it opinion?

 

What percentage of logs are false?

 

What methodology have you used to determine that percentage and has it been validated?

 

If you do not propose adherence to a strict set of rules, then how do you think you will control false logs to a level that you consider to be less than ridiculous and non-degrading to GeoCaching?

 

After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

[+Renegade Knight]

...After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

 

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right. More so if they are allowed to stand.

 

How many doesn't matter. If one false long is wrong, they are all wrong.

[+HopsMaltYeast]

...After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

 

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right. More so if they are allowed to stand.

 

How many doesn't matter. If one false long is wrong, they are all wrong.

 

That is patently false.

 

If you log a false find it does not affect my integrity one iota. It does not insult me.

 

 

Suppose you are correct - even one false log insults your integrity - what do you propose?

 

Are you going to quit GeoCaching on principle - it is corrupt and insulting?

 

How do you propose to prevent even one false log?

[+HopsMaltYeast]

...After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

 

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right. More so if they are allowed to stand.

 

How many doesn't matter. If one false long is wrong, they are all wrong.

 

Who gave you authority to determine what insults the integrity of all cachers?

 

And you jumped over all the "before that stuff" - how many false logs are there? What method have you used?

 

How do they degrade you at whatever level?

Edited February 5, 2008 by HopsMaltYeast

[+Renegade Knight]

It's really simple.

 

Competing against other cachers as if your find count were some kind of "score" goes against the intention of this game.

Another strong argument for scrapping public view of total counts from the geocaching.com site. While I'm a relative newbie at this, I can tell you that whoever designed the geocaching.com web pages with total finds made public was clearly more interested in the number of views/impressions (a marketing term) than the end result of publishing those counts....

Why shoot all the honest folks who use and enjoy the counts for the sake of a a few morons?

[+Renegade Knight]

...After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

 

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right. More so if they are allowed to stand.

 

How many doesn't matter. If one false long is wrong, they are all wrong.

 

And you jumped over all the "before that stuff" - how many false logs are there?

 

How do they degrade you?

 

I'll repeat. How many doesn't matter. False longs degrade the honest logs of the people who did it right. Or reversing it allowing false logs is slap in the face to all people who logged right. It devalues their hard work. ONE CACHE AT A TIME.

 

There you go. I really don't think how many makes one whit of difference. Each and every false log should not exist.

[Mushtang]

False logging is leading to the degradation of geocaching.

 

Oh really? How?

 

Because it's wrong and it's cheating.

 

But how does that keep others from enjoying the game?

 

Wrong is always wrong, it doesn't matter.

 

That may be true, but how is it causing the game of geocaching to be degraded?

 

Because they're just trying to cheat and I don't like cheaters.

 

Okay, but how is their cheating actually causing you to have less fun with your finds and your find count?

 

The game is set up for people to log caches they find, if they want to log caches without finding them they can do that somewhere else.

 

You're right, they can. But since they're doing it here, I'm curious why it bothers you, why you care?

 

Maybe you should open your mind and listen, they're lying about their numbers, and that's wrong.

 

Whether it's right or wrong, how does it degrade the game? How does it change the way you play if someone else is lying?

 

They have no integrity, and they're lying, and they're wrong, and they're cheating, and it's wrong. How can you argue for this?

 

I'm not arguing FOR the false logs, I'm asking how the practice degrades the game and keeps you from playing like you want.

 

[Dead horse image or joke inserted]

 

That doesn't really answer the question.

You can't tell me how to play the game.

 

I'm not trying to, I'm only asking how the false logs degrade the game you play.

 

Because it shows a lack of integrity.

 

And that keeps you from going out and enjoying finding caches in what way?

 

It's wrong and it'll always be wrong. It degrades the game.

 

Oh really? How?

[+JohnnyVegas]

...After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

 

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right. More so if they are allowed to stand.

 

How many doesn't matter. If one false long is wrong, they are all wrong.

 

Who gave you authority to determine what insults the integrity of all cachers?

 

I could be the same person that gave you the authority to determine what does not insult the integrity of all cachers.

[+Renegade Knight]

...After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

 

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right. More so if they are allowed to stand.

 

How many doesn't matter. If one false long is wrong, they are all wrong.

 

That is patently false.

 

If you log a false find it does not affect my integrity one iota. It does not insult me.

 

 

Suppose you are correct - even one false log insults your integrity - what do you propose?

 

Are you going to quit GeoCaching on principle - it is corrupt and insulting?

 

How do you propose to prevent even one false log?

 

What are you telling your other finders if you allow both their legitimate logs to stand along with the false ones? "your honest, here is your find" "Your a lying sack of sh1t, here's your find".

 

I don't proposed preventing them. You should give people the chance to do the right thing. Just deleting the ones you learn about.

[+Renegade Knight]

...I could be the same person that gave you the authority to determine what does not insult the integrity of all cachers.

 

Very nice.

[+HopsMaltYeast]

...After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

 

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right. More so if they are allowed to stand.

 

How many doesn't matter. If one false long is wrong, they are all wrong.

 

And you jumped over all the "before that stuff" - how many false logs are there?

 

How do they degrade you?

 

I'll repeat. How many doesn't matter. False longs degrade the honest logs of the people who did it right. Or reversing it allowing false logs is slap in the face to all people who logged right. It devalues their hard work. ONE CACHE AT A TIME.

 

There you go. I really don't think how many makes one whit of difference. Each and every false log should not exist.

 

That is patently false.

 

I enjoyed all my finds before I saw this thread, before folks raised the issue of false logs.

 

I enjoy them just as much today.

 

My "work" is not devalued. I am not degraded. My enjoyment of the hunt is the same regardless of what you or anyone else logged.

 

So, are you going to quit GeoCaching because it is corrupt, devalued and perhaps worthless? Why would you work hard for something you now define as perhaps worthless?

 

How do you propose to make it uncorrupt, completely valued and worthwhile?

 

Are you saying it is not worthwhile to you now? What percentage less worthwhile is it today compared to say, you first 2 months of participation? Would one false log in Germany really devalue your experience?

[+Renegade Knight]

....I enjoyed all my finds before I saw this thread, before folks raised the issue of false logs.

 

I enjoy them just as much today.

 

My "work" is not devalued. I am not degraded. My enjoyment of the hunt is the same regardless of what you or anyone else logged.

 

So, are you going to quit GeoCaching because it is corrupt, devalued and perhaps worthless? Why would you work hard for something you now define as perhaps worthless?

 

How do you propose to make it uncorrupt, completely valued and worthwhile?

 

Are you saying it is not worthwhile to you now? What percentage less worthwhile is it today compared to say, you first 2 months of participation? Would one false log in Germany really devalue your experience?

 

Your work was devalued by the owner if they let a bad log stand. Sort of like giving your all at work and your boss steals your work as their own. Yeah you enjoyed doing the work and maybe your work wasn't devalued, but you were even if you don't see it.

 

Quit geocaching? No plans there. Fix the problem? Like I said. Delete false logs when you encounter them. It's not rocket science. I think it's fair to make it easy for people to do the right thing. Sometimes that makes it easy for people to do the wrong thing. Such is life.

 

Answer this question.

 

What are you telling your honest finders if you allow all finds regardless of whether or not they found the cache?

[+ReadyOrNot]

That is patently false.

 

I enjoyed all my finds before I saw this thread, before folks raised the issue of false logs.

 

Let me get this straight. In order for something to be wrong, it needs to effect you? Wow, that's extremely narcissistic.

[+briansnat]

Accolades, huh? Where do I go to pick up my awards and medals?

 

Here

 

Here

 

Here

 

Here

 

Here

 

Here

 

Here

 

and

 

Here

 

That took less than 5 minutes. I'm sure there are a lot more.

[+KBI]

I am not promoting bogus logging. I am merely pointing out that there is no reason for anyone to feel "degraded" simply because someone else posts a bogus find log, intentional or not, for a hidden container. Good grief, it's just an uncompetitive hide-and-seek hobby. How can one "cheat" if there is no score being kept?

quick question: What would you do if you were standing in line at the bank. For the sake of the question, line #1. There are a total of 2 lines at the bank. Someone walks into the bank and goes to the front of line #2, cutting in front of everyone else. This SHOULD not affect anyone in line #1. In fact, the effect of those in line #2 is probably fairly small (a little wasted time is all).

 

I am the type of person that will say something to the person who cut into line, even though it doesn't affect me in line #1.

It doesn't affect me in line #1, but it does directly harm the folks in line #2 who got cut off.

 

Please tell me how that is supposed to be relevant ...?

 

Didn't I make it clear that "YOU" were in line #1... What would you do?

I asked you first. Part of your story involves the folks in line #2 being involuntarily cut off. Please tell me how your story is supposed to be relevant to the thread.

[+KBI]

If that's what you are going to take from my example, then you aren't interested in understanding the concept I was trying to convey. I think you need to open your mind a little bit here KBI.

 

You were not directly affected by what happened in line #2, so you do nothing about it and don't care about the guy that cut in line. If everyone had that attitude, noone would ever be held to account for their bad behavior.

My mind is wide open. I see a parable in which people are suffering real and actual harm as the result of rude behavior. Your premise that I wouldn't care is incorrect. What I don’t see is the relevance between your story and anything I’ve been talking about here.

[+KBI]

...After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right.

Only if you choose to be insulted. I could choose to be insulted, but I just don't see the point.

[+Renegade Knight]

...After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right.

Only if you choose to be insulted. I could choose to be insulted, but I just don't see the point.

 

Ignoring the actual problems caused by false logs.

 

Integrity may be the wrong word. I can't think of another one though.

Take a stab at answering the same question I posed to HopsMaltYeast

 

What does it tell your honest finders if you allow logs from both the ones who did the work and the ones who lied? Does it do right by them?

[+KBI]

...After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

 

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right. More so if they are allowed to stand.

 

How many doesn't matter. If one false long is wrong, they are all wrong.

 

That is patently false.

 

If you log a false find it does not affect my integrity one iota. It does not insult me.

 

 

Suppose you are correct - even one false log insults your integrity - what do you propose?

 

Are you going to quit GeoCaching on principle - it is corrupt and insulting?

 

How do you propose to prevent even one false log?

 

What are you telling your other finders if you allow both their legitimate logs to stand along with the false ones? "your honest, here is your find" "Your a lying sack of sh1t, here's your find".

 

I don't proposed preventing them. You should give people the chance to do the right thing. Just deleting the ones you learn about.

None of this addresses the premise that bogus logs "degrade" the game of geocaching as a whole.

[+HopsMaltYeast]

....I enjoyed all my finds before I saw this thread, before folks raised the issue of false logs.

 

I enjoy them just as much today.

 

My "work" is not devalued. I am not degraded. My enjoyment of the hunt is the same regardless of what you or anyone else logged.

 

So, are you going to quit GeoCaching because it is corrupt, devalued and perhaps worthless? Why would you work hard for something you now define as perhaps worthless?

 

How do you propose to make it uncorrupt, completely valued and worthwhile?

 

Are you saying it is not worthwhile to you now? What percentage less worthwhile is it today compared to say, you first 2 months of participation? Would one false log in Germany really devalue your experience?

 

Your work was devalued by the owner if they let a bad log stand. Sort of like giving your all at work and your boss steals your work as their own. Yeah you enjoyed doing the work and maybe your work wasn't devalued, but you were even if you don't see it.

 

Quit geocaching? No plans there. Fix the problem? Like I said. Delete false logs when you encounter them. It's not rocket science. I think it's fair to make it easy for people to do the right thing. Sometimes that makes it easy for people to do the wrong thing. Such is life.

 

Answer this question.

 

What are you telling your honest finders if you allow all finds regardless of whether or not they found the cache?

This is all completely either wrong or irrelevant to me.

 

You are dodging the easy questions because you cannot answer them in a way that fits your allegations.

 

You are swinging out in free air.

 

You do not know how many false logs are out there.

 

You have not given one concrete example of how a false log has hurt your integrity or degraded you or degrade the "sport" (I think it is a hobby or pastime).

 

I enjoyed finding the cache or trying to find it regardless of the other logged or not logged finds or dnf's. I spent some time in the open air, hopefully with friends and family. I don't care if you lied about finding it. I assume you told the truth unless there is evidence to the contrary.

 

If my boss stole my work it might or might not affect my earning power, my pay, my career and my family's security. It devalues him for lying. It does not devalue me, even if it cost me some praise or a raise. Completely irrelevant to the hobby of GeoCaching. (Who knows, it might help my pay if he gives me a big raise to keep me from outing him - that is another ethical thread outside of GeoCaching.) There is no way a false log has ever hurt my integrity, self-esteem, income potential, reputation or standing in the community. I have never put GeoCaching finds on my annual performance review at work as evidence that I deserve a raise.

 

You have not demonstrated one concrete example of how the sport is degraded other than saying cheating is always bad.

 

You have not proposed one concrete suggestion beyond the current guidelines to prevent bad logging practice.

 

How have false logs, if they exist, degrade you, impact your integrity or hurt you?

 

I understand that your sensibilities are insulted if there is one lie or falsehood out there anywhere in the universe, but how does it really affect you in your life?

 

Are false logging practice worse today than the day you started? (Please provide statistics or other hard evidence to support your claim)

 

Is Geocaching going to fail because of false logs?

[+Renegade Knight]

....None of this addresses the premise that bogus logs "degrade" the game of geocaching as a whole.

False logs give false information that can be relied on by cache owners and finders leading to them making wrong decisions. That alone degrades geocaching.

 

Allowing false logs tells your honest cachers that honest honesty in logging is worthless, that they can get the 'prize' by lying and zero effort. Which in turn creates the problem above.

 

Rewarding a lack of personal integrity in general is a crappy way to build a civilization.

[+HopsMaltYeast]

That is patently false.

 

I enjoyed all my finds before I saw this thread, before folks raised the issue of false logs.

 

Let me get this straight. In order for something to be wrong, it needs to effect you? Wow, that's extremely narcissistic.

 

That comment is so off the mark and unrelated that it does not merit response. I did not even talk about what is right or wrong. What is right or wrong is not the subject of the OP.

[+KBI]

....I enjoyed all my finds before I saw this thread, before folks raised the issue of false logs.

 

I enjoy them just as much today.

 

My "work" is not devalued. I am not degraded. My enjoyment of the hunt is the same regardless of what you or anyone else logged.

 

So, are you going to quit GeoCaching because it is corrupt, devalued and perhaps worthless? Why would you work hard for something you now define as perhaps worthless?

 

How do you propose to make it uncorrupt, completely valued and worthwhile?

 

Are you saying it is not worthwhile to you now? What percentage less worthwhile is it today compared to say, you first 2 months of participation? Would one false log in Germany really devalue your experience?

Your work was devalued by the owner if they let a bad log stand.

My work is devalued only if I allow the false log to cause me to see my real log as anything different from what I know to be the truth. Why would I do that?

 

That’s like hearing that you lied to yourself in your diary and then turning around and allowing your diary fib to make me feel bad about my own truthful diary. Why would I do that?

 

Sort of like giving your all at work and your boss steals your work as their own.

That’s an invalid comparison.

 

Nobody steals anything from me by simply fumbling their own cache page log.

 

It doesn’t change my log, and more importantly it doesn’t change history. Nobody can steal my cache find from me. Even if a cranky owner deletes my find because he doesn’t like the letter "K," he hasn’t changed history. If I want my smiley back to in order to reflect an accurate online count I can simply log it on one of my own pages instead.

 

Answer this question.

 

What are you telling your honest finders if you allow all finds regardless of whether or not they found the cache?

I don’t see that it tells them anything. Each cacher decides for himself what constitutes a find worthy of filing a 'Found It' log.

 

If I solve a tough puzzle which allows me to find and log a puzzle cache, but another cacher who didn’t work the puzzle logs a find for the same cache by simply tagging along with his friend who did solve the puzzle, then how does that affect me? Do you think I should be morally offended? If the cache owner allows that so-called bogus log to stand, it can only bother me if I allow it to. Sorry, but I’ve got better things to do than to look over other people’s shoulders and be the log police. There are too many more puzzles out there to attack ...

[+MickieD]

I can't believe this thread is still alive.

 

I cache with my grandkids because it's a fun way for us to spend time together. If we piddle around and make two finds on a Saturday we're happy campers. It's about US havin fun as a family TOGETHER.

 

I don't really give a hoot how anyone else goes about their caching.

 

I think this is 12 pages of mostly junior high, adolescent, snotty behavior.

 

Let's grow up and be at peace. Geocaching is for fun. This is so NOT fun!

[+Renegade Knight]

...This is all completely either wrong or irrelevant to me.

 

You can't answer my question can you?

 

Lets tackle yours.

You do not know how many false logs are out there.

True. I don't. I also don't think how many matters. The case I'm building simply says false logs are a problem. Not that you need a certain number of them to matter.

You have not given one concrete example of how a false log has hurt your integrity or degraded you or degrade the "sport" (I think it is a hobby or pastime).

A slew of false logs cased our reviewer to spend time evaluating a bunch of local caches for the need to be archived. Ultimately that cacher was banned. In the meantime a lot of time was wasted that could have been better used approving caches or dealing with real issues.

 

I don't care if you lied about finding it.

Most cachers like the chance to find the cache even if they can't. As opposed to looking for nothing. A falst log can create this situation. You may say you like DNF's but if that's all you ever do. You won't be a cacher long. Yes it has an impact. You can DNF all day without a cache listing. I'll be you work from a ache listing through.

 

I assume you told the truth unless there is evidence to the contrary.

Good policy.

 

You have not demonstrated one concrete example of how the sport is degraded other than saying cheating is always bad.

Do I need another reason than something is bad to say it's bad practice?

 

You have not proposed one concrete suggestion beyond the current guidelines to prevent bad logging practice.

Why is that a problem? I think if owners delete bogus logs that's all that needs to be done. Do you have a better idea? Something that would make my simple solution seem anemic and yet feet your own way of seething things?

 

How have false logs, if they exist, degrade you, impact your integrity or hurt you?

Hunting for caches that are not there. Having to make my case to a reviwer that the cache is there. Wasting my time dealing with them to begin with.

 

...but how does it really affect you in your life?

See the above. Prodigious use of bogus logs in my area intended to cause issues does take away from the fun. First I have to sort the wheat from the chafe, then I have to wonder if I'm' not impacting something legit. I have to deal with reviewers and coordinate with TBTB. All of this eats into quality caching time.

 

Are false logging practice worse today than the day you started? (Please provide statistics or other hard evidence to support your claim)

Yes. In my area. For proof, do a Google on the term "Cache Maggot". Bogus logs using sock puppets are a trademark. You can do your own math, coordinate with TPTB to read all the deleted logs and find whatever statistics you need. My case stands at the problem starts with one log. One or a billion the solution is to delete them.

 

Is Geocaching going to fail because of false logs?

Has human life failed because of lies in general? No. Do I expect geocaching to fail? No but the odds are actually higher that it would.

 

Quotes are FUBAR. Oh well.

Edited February 5, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Bad_CRC]

I don't really give a hoot how anyone else goes about their caching.

 

It's too bad for everyone that there are people who can't follow your example.

 

 

fortunately for all, people like them are mostly limited to hanging out here on the forums, and in my experience, most people in "the real world" are kinder and less concerned about trying to control other people.

[+HopsMaltYeast]

....I enjoyed all my finds before I saw this thread, before folks raised the issue of false logs.

 

I enjoy them just as much today.

 

My "work" is not devalued. I am not degraded. My enjoyment of the hunt is the same regardless of what you or anyone else logged.

 

So, are you going to quit GeoCaching because it is corrupt, devalued and perhaps worthless? Why would you work hard for something you now define as perhaps worthless?

 

How do you propose to make it uncorrupt, completely valued and worthwhile?

 

Are you saying it is not worthwhile to you now? What percentage less worthwhile is it today compared to say, you first 2 months of participation? Would one false log in Germany really devalue your experience?

 

Your work was devalued by the owner if they let a bad log stand. Sort of like giving your all at work and your boss steals your work as their own. Yeah you enjoyed doing the work and maybe your work wasn't devalued, but you were even if you don't see it.

 

Quit geocaching? No plans there. Fix the problem? Like I said. Delete false logs when you encounter them. It's not rocket science. I think it's fair to make it easy for people to do the right thing. Sometimes that makes it easy for people to do the wrong thing. Such is life.

 

Answer this question.

 

What are you telling your honest finders if you allow all finds regardless of whether or not they found the cache?

 

I have no idea. Too vague. Do I know that any of the claimed finds are false in your scenario?

 

I think I would leave it to the honest finders to find value in their find and experience and I don't they would care what I was or was not telling them, because they would already have found the cache, yes? So why would they care what I was telling them? They already had the experience

[+KBI]

That is patently false.

 

I enjoyed all my finds before I saw this thread, before folks raised the issue of false logs.

 

Let me get this straight. In order for something to be wrong, it needs to effect you? Wow, that's extremely narcissistic.

No.

 

In order for an action to be wrong it needs a valid, logical reason to be characterized as wrong other than just because it makes someone uncomfortable.

 

In order for an action to be wrong it has to cause real harm to a real person, not perceived harm to a confused person.

[+MickieD]

I don't really give a hoot how anyone else goes about their caching.

 

It's too bad for everyone that there are people who can't follow your example.

 

 

fortunately for all, people like them are mostly limited to hanging out here on the forums, and in my experience, most people in "the real world" are kinder and less concerned about trying to control other people.

 

I know, right? I thought this would be a great place to swap stories and learn some tricks to finding caches since we're kind of new. Instead, almost every thread turns into a brawl.

 

I wonder if these same people got together in a room if they'd start throwing punches or if they'd be civilized humans. Probably civilized humans. Which begs the question - what exactly is it about a keyboard that turns Dr. Jekyl into Mr. Hyde? It's an interesting phenomenon that I've seen countless times.

[+Renegade Knight]

...I don't really give a hoot how anyone else goes about their caching. ...

 

Yes you do.

 

Odds are you rely on the cache description to be somewhat truthful. You will find (if you haven't already) the kids like swag that means hunting for larger containers to maximize the fun. IN turn that means you rely on cache owners telling the truth about cache size.

 

You will also find your kids like to find the cache or at least have a chance at finding the cache. That last thing you need is to follow after Mr. "I don't give a hoot about my logs" who logs they found caches that are in fact missing so you waste your time and have less fun than you could have.

 

What should you do about this? If you happen to place a cache and you happen to find a log thats Bunk, delete it. Don't encourage it. Don't sweep it under the carpet.

 

The real truth is you haven't realized how much you rely on the honesty of others in this activity to keep it fun for you.

 

Even the ones championing false logs rely on the honesty of others in this activity to maximize their enjoyment.

Edited February 5, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+KBI]

Accolades, huh? Where do I go to pick up my awards and medals?

 

Here

 

Here

 

Here

 

Here

 

Here

 

Here

 

Here

 

and

 

Here

 

That took less than 5 minutes. I'm sure there are a lot more.

I have never heard of those. You are making a HUGE assumption about why I hide and seek Geocaches.

 

You and I apparently have a very, very different idea about why we participate in this hobby.

 

If I ever mess up and log a find instead of post a note when I do maintenance on one of my own caches, don't worry – I'm not trying to edge you out for one of those coveted goodies. My participation in this hobby has nothing to do with your competition, race, contest or whatever you want to call your struggle for recognition.

[Mushtang]

Take a stab at answering the same question I posed to HopsMaltYeast

 

What does it tell your honest finders if you allow logs from both the ones who did the work and the ones who lied? Does it do right by them?

Can I take a stab at it?

 

I wouldn't allow logs from those who lied if I knew about it. I'll delete a fake log just as fast as anyone. But only because I like to have the logs on my cache be accurate for me, not because I think it'll make it better for anyone else in any way.

 

However, if someone else allowed a fake log to remain, I don't see how it would take away anything from you as far as this game goes. So far I haven't seen any indication that it will, at all.

[+Renegade Knight]

...In order for an action to be wrong it needs a valid, logical reason to be characterized as wrong other than just because it makes someone uncomfortable.

 

In order for an action to be wrong it has to cause real harm to a real person, not perceived harm to a confused person.

 

You are saying you need to see a harm rise to a level you recognize or deem worthy?

 

What is the threshold of lying which rises to that level that level? It is enough that it can cause you to waste your time and gas?

[+TrailGators]

Rewarding a lack of personal integrity in general is a crappy way to build a civilization.

I agree. If you lie or support lying about something easy to tell the truth about, then how will you stand up when you get a tougher test? Building integrity is like building muscles. You start with small weights (easy things to be honest about) and build up to tougher things to be honest about. The false loggers are integrity weaklings.

[+MickieD]

...I don't really give a hoot how anyone else goes about their caching. ...

 

Yes you do.

 

Odds are you rely on the cache description to be somewhat truthful. You will find (if you haven't already) the kids like swag that means hunting for larger containers to maximize the fun. IN turn that means you rely on cache owners telling the truth about cache size.

 

You will also find your kids like to find the cache or at least have a chance at finding the cache. That last thing you need is to follow after Mr. "I don't give a hoot about my logs" who logs they found caches that are in fact missing so you waste your time and have less fun than you could have.

 

What should you do about this? If you happen to place a cache and you happen to find a log thats Bunk, delete it. Don't encourage it. Don't sweep it under the carpet.

 

The real truth is you haven't realized how much you rely on the honesty of others in this activity to keep it fun for you.

 

Even the ones championing false logs rely on the honesty of others in this activity to maximize their enjoyment.

 

Actually we cache sans paper. When we get to GZ, we have no idea what we're looking for. I run PQ's and use GSAK to dump right into my GPS. That's how we like to do it. It's more fun.

 

So, that explained, please don't argue with what I said and leverage my comments to make your point, mkay? Thanks so much.

[+Renegade Knight]

Take a stab at answering the same question I posed to HopsMaltYeast

 

What does it tell your honest finders if you allow logs from both the ones who did the work and the ones who lied? Does it do right by them?

Can I take a stab at it?

 

I wouldn't allow logs from those who lied if I knew about it. I'll delete a fake log just as fast as anyone. But only because I like to have the logs on my cache be accurate for me, not because I think it'll make it better for anyone else in any way.

 

However, if someone else allowed a fake log to remain, I don't see how it would take away anything from you as far as this game goes. So far I haven't seen any indication that it will, at all.

Not quite what I had in mind. That's your view of how you deal with the situation and you are deleting the false log anyway.

 

Maybe rephrasing is better. Assuming you are keeping the false logs (since that's what some are arguing here it seems)

 

Your honest finder asks you "Why did you let this bogus log stand" I did the work and this jerk just logs your Florida caches while he's in Tahiti and you let it stand!?? Why?

 

Or your kid wiht the puppy dog eyes asks you "why are you letting the guy who didn't find your cache log it?"

[+KBI]

....None of this addresses the premise that bogus logs "degrade" the game of geocaching as a whole.

False logs give false information that can be relied on by cache owners and finders leading to them making wrong decisions. That alone degrades geocaching.

That’s been covered already. The word you’re looking for there is "confuses," not "degrades."

 

Did you miss my response?

 

Allowing false logs tells your honest cachers that honest honesty in logging is worthless ...

Really? So if I told you your honesty was worthless would you believe me? Would you accept that from me? Didn’t think so. I wouldn’t let you try to tell me that either. Why would any other cacher accept such a strange claim?

 

that they can get the 'prize' by lying and zero effort.

WHAT prize? When did this hobby become a competition? Did I miss a memo?

 

Rewarding a lack of personal integrity in general is a crappy way to build a civilization.

WHAT reward? When did this pastime become a contest? Did I miss a meeting?