Are we allowing the degradation of geocaching?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

It would be nice if there was a recognized branch of geocaching where everyone plays the same game, by the same rules. Consistency would be much appreciated by those of us that prefer "black & white," versus the "rainbow" of "play game the way you want."

 

I agree...I would be attracted to a site that raised the bar. But I wouldn't want it to be so overloaded with purism that there was leniency for reasonable policy exceptions.

You will never encounter black and white. Ever. If humans are involved there will be differences. Look at highly-regulated games, from football to tennis, where the rules are carefully spelled out and there should be little gray area... yet there certainly is!

 

As to the "leniency for reasonable policy exceptions", what's reasonable to you will be quite different than what's reasonable to others - witness the discord in these forums!

 

Common sense isn't common! We all have our individual beliefs and a natural instinct to protect and project our desires.

 

Life is gray, it always will be.

[+ArcherDragoon]

Edit: Pay no attention to my post...just on a rant...

Edit: Sorry Kit...something set me off and I just typed and didn't think...

 

It would be nice if there was a recognized branch of geocaching where everyone plays the same game, by the same rules. Consistency would be much appreciated by those of us that prefer "black & white," versus the "rainbow" of "play game the way you want."

 

...and yet...I play within the rules/guidlines of the game...and still yet I am not a "geocacher" because I do not play just like another geocacher...

 

...yep...that's what I want...monotony and conformity...

Edited January 30, 2008 by ArcherDragoon

[+ArcherDragoon]

You will never encounter black and white. Ever. If humans are involved there will be differences. Look at highly-regulated games, from football to tennis, where the rules are carefully spelled out and there should be little gray area... yet there certainly is!

 

As to the "leniency for reasonable policy exceptions", what's reasonable to you will be quite different than what's reasonable to others - witness the discord in these forums!

 

Common sense isn't common! We all have our individual beliefs and a natural instinct to protect and project our desires.

 

Life is gray, it always will be.

 

Very well said...

Edited January 30, 2008 by ArcherDragoon

[+StarBrand]

Many of these new practices are having effects on other Geocachers. Parks are closing off Geocaching, land managers are making restricive rules, new cachers are put off by the lack of consistency, non-cachers look down at us all when they see what a few have done.

 

I don't live in some kind of innoculated vaccum. Actions of others have an affect on me. Sometimes minor and small - sometimes not. One thing is for certain, the overall reputation of cachers has shrunk just a bit over the years. Some of the practices mentioned above have reulted in that.

[+ArcherDragoon]

Many of these new practices are having effects on other Geocachers. Parks are closing off Geocaching, land managers are making restricive rules, new cachers are put off by the lack of consistency, non-cachers look down at us all when they see what a few have done.

 

I don't live in some kind of innoculated vaccum. Actions of others have an affect on me. Sometimes minor and small - sometimes not. One thing is for certain, the overall reputation of cachers has shrunk just a bit over the years. Some of the practices mentioned above have reulted in that.

Yeah...I won't disagree with you either...

 

I guess I just got worked up about one particular thing on Kit's list...sorry folks...my ranting is done now...

 

I think it all comes down to common sense and learning from prior mistakes...

[Thore]

Not sure whether I should, but I will comment anyway.

 

Out of 42273 registered user of GC (as I type this) a selected few do cheat. Suprise? No.

 

Does that degrade the game? Only if the majority (~42200 give or take a few) allows that. It influences, but making COs aware of that also counters it.

I am quite glad that they get caught. And it is probably easier to catch a European claiming bogus finds in the US than it is in Europe. Or vice versa for that matter.

 

I agree that physical presence at the site and your signature in the log (if there is one) is required to claim the find. Everything else is cheating and logs should be deleted, or the logger given the chance to explain.

 

What does alarm (and upsets) me a little here is the tendency (again, only by a few) to oversimplify ('The Germans / The Europeans). I seem to recall an earlier thread on the same topic where several groups/players from around the globe where named to be 'armchair caching' and the numbers above also tell a story.

 

In short: Cheating gets me angry. Bogus logs are cheating. But it is only a fraction who does so. Be aware and be prepared.

 

Thore

 

P.S.: Hopefully I am going to meet some of you while I am in NJ and chat about this over a beer or two (I will buy the first round). Happy Hunting T.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Many of these new practices are having effects on other Geocachers. Parks are closing off Geocaching, land managers are making restricive rules, new cachers are put off by the lack of consistency, non-cachers look down at us all when they see what a few have done.

 

I don't live in some kind of innoculated vaccum. Actions of others have an affect on me. Sometimes minor and small - sometimes not. One thing is for certain, the overall reputation of cachers has shrunk just a bit over the years. Some of the practices mentioned above have reulted in that.

Maybe I am obtuse, but I just don't see it happening at any rate that it doesn't happen in any group.

 

There are bad actors in any group. There are bad actors in your church, in my Masonic fraternity, in professional groups of every nature, in every game and business, and those bad actors inevitably have a negative effect on the reputation and privileges of those around them.

 

Yes, we have lost access to parks and other properties due to the unfortunate behaviors of a few, that is irrefutable. That is also, however, true of any group.

 

Is the reputation of geocachers as a whole being degraded by this? Not any more than that of any other group is.

 

One cacher placing unpermitted hides can indeed cost us access to a park IF the park management is so narrow-minded as to judge us all by that cacher's actions... but if they are going to do that then any excuse would lead them to that knee-jerk reaction.

 

The turmoil in SC last year was sparked by a single careless cacher and cost us a lot of territory, but again, that's going to happen when one or a few bad actors is seen to be representative of all or most of any group.

 

So, what is being lamented here, the natural course of human events?

 

Somewhere earlier in this thread someone rather passionately stated something to the effect that he was "proud to be a geocacher"... and so should we all be, but we shouldn't get so invested that we believe that the few things that harm the game harm our personal reputation.

[+ArcherDragoon]

Many of these new practices are having effects on other Geocachers. Parks are closing off Geocaching, land managers are making restricive rules, new cachers are put off by the lack of consistency, non-cachers look down at us all when they see what a few have done.

 

I don't live in some kind of innoculated vaccum. Actions of others have an affect on me. Sometimes minor and small - sometimes not. One thing is for certain, the overall reputation of cachers has shrunk just a bit over the years. Some of the practices mentioned above have reulted in that.

Maybe I am obtuse, but I just don't see it happening at any rate that it doesn't happen in any group.

 

There are bad actors in any group. There are bad actors in your church, in my Masonic fraternity, in professional groups of every nature, in every game and business, and those bad actors inevitably have a negative effect on the reputation and privileges of those around them.

 

Yes, we have lost access to parks and other properties due to the unfortunate behaviors of a few, that is irrefutable. That is also, however, true of any group.

 

Is the reputation of geocachers as a whole being degraded by this? Not any more than that of any other group is.

 

One cacher placing unpermitted hides can indeed cost us access to a park IF the park management is so narrow-minded as to judge us all by that cacher's actions... but if they are going to do that then any excuse would lead them to that knee-jerk reaction.

 

The turmoil in SC last year was sparked by a single careless cacher and cost us a lot of territory, but again, that's going to happen when one or a few bad actors is seen to be representative of all or most of any group.

 

So, what is being lamented here, the natural course of human events?

 

Somewhere earlier in this thread someone rather passionately stated something to the effect that he was "proud to be a geocacher"... and so should we all be, but we shouldn't get so invested that we believe that the few things that harm the game harm our personal reputation.

I guess that is the way I read it...but I could not have said it any better (for that matter, I could not have said it as good...), all groups have something to this effect and it is natural for those involved to worry how it will have any impact on what themsleves can do...

[+MountainMudbug]

Somewhere earlier in this thread someone rather passionately stated something to the effect that he was "proud to be a geocacher"... and so should we all be, but we shouldn't get so invested that we believe that the few things that harm the game harm our personal reputation.

 

Should then everyone be so laid back and unconcerned that it becomes an anything-goes free-for-all?

I'm reading a lot of "I don't care, it doesn't bother/affect me".

[+tozainamboku]

Many of these new practices are having effects on other Geocachers. Parks are closing off Geocaching, land managers are making restrictive rules, new cachers are put off by the lack of consistency, non-cachers look down at us all when they see what a few have done.

 

I don't live in some kind of innoculated vaccum. Actions of others have an affect on me. Sometimes minor and small - sometimes not. One thing is for certain, the overall reputation of cachers has shrunk just a bit over the years. Some of the practices mentioned above have reulted in that.

I thought this thread was about fake logs. Are parks banning geocaching and land managers making restrictive rules because of fake logs? I haven't heard this before.

 

People want to claim that all sorts of things they don't agree are affecting them. The problem is weeding out those things that actually affect you and those that you only think affect you. As has been pointed out, sometimes a fake log can affect you. briansnat always mentions his friend who wasted gas driving 100 miles to look for a cache because someone falsely claimed a find. But many other "fake" logs are not fake at all. People use the found it log (or an attended event log) in a way that a purist would say is wrong. They didn't find the cache; perhaps they didn't even go geocaching. How do the purist know this? Because that logger will say in the log exactly what they are doing. "I left a replacement so I'm claiming a find", "Logging temporary event cache 11 out of 45", "My buddy found this for me while he was on a business trip", "Greetings from Germany. It was easy to find the answer using Google." Does this effect the purist in any way? You bet it does. It raises their blood pressure, causes headaches and indigestion, and apparently forces some purists to have to start threads in the Geocaching.com forums to vent.

 

How do other people view geocachers because of this? My guess it that most people don't give two hoots if someone wishes to use the logging features on Geocaching.com to record an alternate game. What they may wonder about is why the purists who are still able to use the logging features to record their own finds are complaining as if someone took this ability away. IMO, most non-geocachers would have a better opinion of geocaching, if we treated this a light-hearted fun activity and didn't worry so much about numbers. Most would accept that in using an honor system to record your geocaching achievements online, some differences will occur in what people feel is an actual find and their might even be some outright lying. The vast majority of geocachers seem to be having fun and logging it. This may be a fun thing. But if you're going to continue to preach to me that I'm doing it wrong, I will either decide that I can ignore you or else decide that logging online isn't worth the aggravation and will simply stop logging my finds online.

Edited January 30, 2008 by tozainamboku

[+JohnnyVegas]

Somewhere earlier in this thread someone rather passionately stated something to the effect that he was "proud to be a geocacher"... and so should we all be, but we shouldn't get so invested that we believe that the few things that harm the game harm our personal reputation.

 

Should then everyone be so laid back and unconcerned that it becomes an anything-goes free-for-all?

I'm reading a lot of "I don't care, it doesn't bother/affect me".

 

"I don't care, it doesn't bother/affect me". This is the head in the sand attitude.

 

They will keep saying that up to the day geocaching gets band in their favorite park.

It does not matter how many people are giving geocaching a black eye. When it comes to land managers it only takes one careless cacher to ruin geocaching in that park for eveyone else.

All the land manager is going to see is someone harming the park that he is suppose to maintain.

 

He will not care if only one in a thousand cachers are idiots, he will only cares that someone has

harmed the park the he maintians.

[+egami]

It would be nice if there was a recognized branch of geocaching where everyone plays the same game, by the same rules. Consistency would be much appreciated by those of us that prefer "black & white," versus the "rainbow" of "play game the way you want."

 

I agree...I would be attracted to a site that raised the bar. But I wouldn't want it to be so overloaded with purism that there was leniency for reasonable policy exceptions.

You will never encounter black and white. Ever. If humans are involved there will be differences. Look at highly-regulated games, from football to tennis, where the rules are carefully spelled out and there should be little gray area... yet there certainly is!

 

As to the "leniency for reasonable policy exceptions", what's reasonable to you will be quite different than what's reasonable to others - witness the discord in these forums!

 

Common sense isn't common! We all have our individual beliefs and a natural instinct to protect and project our desires.

 

Life is gray, it always will be.

 

I disagree. There are things clearly black and white. The only difference is to what degree individuals deliberately allow areas toward the center to be grey.

 

However, you're missing the point, at least on my part...the point isn't to achieve perfection. The point would be to create a less grey version that this has become.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Yup, there you have it!

 

Eliminate the published numbers and you solve the problem!

 

Bogus logs would help no one; high numbers or low numbers would not be a way to judge each other.

 

No one would be able to accuse another of being a numbers-ho und and any fear that bogus logs are degrading the game or our collective reputation would be quelled.

 

I certainly wouldn't miss them.

Edited January 30, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+Renegade Knight]

There was a false logging issue I became aware of a while back - may even still be an issue, I don't know. I can't comprehend why anybody would stoop so low, so I quit trying to follow the saga.

 

Long story short, individuals would together log caches they hadn't found - lots of them - amongst a few caches they did find, in an effort to massively increase their numbers (because don't you know, you get worshipped as a caching god when you have lots of finds??)

Result - much fawning over them, events to congratulate on the big numbers (probably there were a few golden ammo cans presented), blah blah blah

 

Further result - the false logging was discovered. One publicly apologized and voluntarily removed their portion of the false logs, at the same time outing other false logger. Other never said anything about it, and as far as I know continued to cache.

 

What exactly is the benefit of this type of behavior, for anyone? "Cheating" yourself, the cache owner, and other cachers is neither comendable nor impressive, makes no sense, and doesn't accomplish squat.

 

I just don't get it.

 

With what you posted I think you do get it. I've also seen newbie cachers who in not getting their due for their numbers got angry at old timers. They would get downright snotty even though they really had not accomplished much of anything. Anyone can rack up numbers now. But if I'm going to every remote cache in the valley and I keep seeing one cachers name, or if I notice that one cacher seems to have a knack for a great hide, those cachers are the ones that are going to stand out stand out now. Not Joe Quick Cache.

[+scuba dude]

 

...... There are things clearly black and white. The only difference is to what degree individuals deliberately allow areas toward the center to be grey.

 

However, you're missing the point, at least on my part...the point isn't to achieve perfection. The point would be to create a less grey version that this has become.

 

OMG! I agree with Egami!

[+egami]

OMG! I agree with Egami!

 

Is it too late to change my stance?

[+NotThePainter]

A good analogy would be the game/hobby/sport/activity of golf. Could you imagine a person who routinely played golf by merely throwing or kicking the ball around the course? Do you think the other golfers in the foursome would allow this? Do you think the club would allow this?

 

I almost took part in such a tournament!

 

It was a conference, unrelated to golfing, but the hotel had a course. To even up the playing field use of golf clubs was discouraged, throwing, 2x4s, whatever, was encouraged. (By encouraged, you had strokes added for using using golfing equipment and subtracted for not. For example, lets say you used a putter twice to make that putt, that would be a score of 4, but if you used a 2x4, and it took three swings, it would be a 1, since the 2x4 had a bonus to it.)

 

Oh yeah, beer was involved also, like you couldn't figure that out...

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Oh yeah, beer was involved also, like you couldn't figure that out...

Well there ya go... there is no black and white, only beer!

[+drat19]

Yup, there you have it!

 

Eliminate the published numbers and you solve the problem!

 

Bogus logs would help no one; high numbers or low numbers would not be a way to judge each other.

 

No one would be able to accuse another of being a numbers-ho und and any fear that bogus logs are degrading the game or our collective reputation would be quelled.

 

I certainly wouldn't miss them.

Ed, as one of the Deep Dixie region's original Numbers Ho's (since reformed!), I never thought I'd say this to you re your above-quoted post, but: I AGREE! Get rid of the stats and you not only solve the bogus logging problem, but you also solve Micro Spew - after all, what other incentive would cachers have to both hide and find so much UTTER CRAP (not ALL micros, just the Spew )? And you also stop the practice of deifying high-number cachers, and treat everyone equally, as regards "how people are perceived at events"...maybe folks would still get recognized for their longevity or for their reputations as great hiders or creative log-writers, but not just for their stats.

[+egami]

Yup, there you have it!

 

Eliminate the published numbers and you solve the problem!

 

Bogus logs would help no one; high numbers or low numbers would not be a way to judge each other.

 

No one would be able to accuse another of being a numbers-ho und and any fear that bogus logs are degrading the game or our collective reputation would be quelled.

 

I certainly wouldn't miss them.

 

I'd go for that, but TPTB never would go for anything that may be detrimental to revenue generating.

[+proimion]

Yes, this is a topic about "false logs" but I've noticed in my brief time in the forums that whether the topic is false logs, micros, magnetics on electrical equipment, whatever, that the response from many is "Play the game your own way. If you don't like [insert topic] then don't do it. Live and let live." Etc.

 

The problem with that reaction is that these issues do affect the quality of geocaching. My ignore list constantly grows with geotrash caches and it saddens me. My login name is "proimion" which is a Greek word meaning "to introduce." I used to sign my logs with "Thanks for introducing me to this place." That rarely happens anymore as our sport continually degrades with low quality caches and caching experiences driven "by the numbers." How sad.

 

Imagine a playground. Some children want to walk up the slide instead of slide down it. Some want to throw the tire swing around violently. Others want to dump water in the sandbox to make it mud. Are any of these things against policy? Probably not. Do they hurt the playground? No. Do they diminish the experience for other children. Absolutely yes. Should the parents just say, "Oh well, there goes the playground"? If they do, how sad--for everyone.

 

As a community we have to start insisting on high quality, standards-driven caches and caching experiences or we will end up with a playground in chaos. As for me, I love geocaching and therefore I am going to get more vocal about low-quality caching and I will not let the "live and let live" response keep me from trying to improve things.

[+sbell111]

... Get rid of the stats and you not only solve the bogus logging problem, but you also solve Micro Spew - after all, what other incentive would cachers have to both hide and find so much UTTER CRAP (not ALL micros, just the Spew )? ...

Perhaps many people hide and find these because they like to hide and find them, just like they keep saying; plus

The stats are never going to go away. Ever. That's not 'the problem' and it wouldn't solve 'the problem'.

Edited January 30, 2008 by sbell111

[+TrailGators]

Yup, there you have it!

 

Eliminate the published numbers and you solve the problem!

 

Bogus logs would help no one; high numbers or low numbers would not be a way to judge each other.

 

No one would be able to accuse another of being a numbers-ho und and any fear that bogus logs are degrading the game or our collective reputation would be quelled.

 

I certainly wouldn't miss them.

 

I'd go for that, but TPTB never would go for anything that may be detrimental to revenue generating.

I agree. Numbers feed a psychological addiction that many people have. People that are cheating with their numbers are like people that pull cigarette butts out of ashtrays and smoke those. I've asked many times that we be given an option to hide our numbers and this idea always gets shot down. I don't buy the experience excuse. It would be better to know someone's DNF percentage versus their find count when a DNF gets logged. Numbers cachers typically follow a shorter time limit so they will have a higher percentage of DNFs than people willing to spend a long time look for a cache.

[+drat19]

... Get rid of the stats and you not only solve the bogus logging problem, but you also solve Micro Spew - after all, what other incentive would cachers have to both hide and find so much UTTER CRAP (not ALL micros, just the Spew )? ...

Perhaps many people hide and find these because they like to hide and find them, just like they keep saying; plus

The stats are never going to go away. Ever. That's not 'the problem' and it wouldn't solve 'the problem'.

I know the stats are never going to go away, despite the above points. Apparently, neither is "the problem". That's why I, for the most part, have (gone away). The mass market has spoken, and it's marketing to someone other than me.

[+sbell111]

Yes, this is a topic about "false logs" but I've noticed in my brief time in the forums that whether the topic is false logs, micros, magnetics on electrical equipment, whatever, that the response from many is "Play the game your own way. If you don't like [insert topic] then don't do it. Live and let live." Etc.

 

The problem with that reaction is that these issues do affect the quality of geocaching. My ignore list constantly grows with geotrash caches and it saddens me. My login name is "proimion" which is a Greek word meaning "to introduce." I used to sign my logs with "Thanks for introducing me to this place." That rarely happens anymore as our sport continually degrades with low quality caches and caching experiences driven "by the numbers." How sad.

 

Imagine a playground. Some children want to walk up the slide instead of slide down it. Some want to throw the tire swing around violently. Others want to dump water in the sandbox to make it mud. Are any of these things against policy? Probably not. Do they hurt the playground? No. Do they diminish the experience for other children. Absolutely yes. Should the parents just say, "Oh well, there goes the playground"? If they do, how sad--for everyone.

 

As a community we have to start insisting on high quality, standards-driven caches and caching experiences or we will end up with a playground in chaos. As for me, I love geocaching and therefore I am going to get more vocal about low-quality caching and I will not let the "live and let live" response keep me from trying to improve things.

What I've noticed in my brief time in the forums is that people want to alter every thread to be about their favorite whipping topic and that people want to exhibit some control over people who enjoy the game differently than they do.

 

Therefore, let's stick to the topic of false logs. I fail to see how a false log is an issue that should not be privately handled between a cache hider and a cache seeker. With the exception of a 'truly' false log that could possibly inconvenience Brian's friend, none of the actions given by the OP affects anyone except the cache seeker and cache hider.

 

It is my belief 'false logging' happens extremely rarely and even then, it mostly affects virtual caches. This issue is not worthy of the angst level that it causes. It is just another example of little issues that get people riled up in the forums and hardly affects any of us in real life.

Edited January 30, 2008 by sbell111

[+ArcherDragoon]

I have been caching for almost three years. I realize that I wasn’t around ‘in the beginning’, but I’ve been around long enough to notice an increase in what I’ll refer to as ‘false logs’. I am talking about cachers logging finds when they didn’t even come anywhere close to the cache.

 

Examples are; logging virtual caches by merely finding the additional logging requirements on the internet, logging caches they happen to pass within a mile of on a road trip without even getting out of their car, having a friend or another cacher log their name while they remain at home.

 

I’ve seen these false logs, and I’ve participated in many forum discussions on these issues, and while there are many people that object to the practice of ‘false logging’, there are also many with the opinion that “if it’s not directly affecting you, then you shouldn’t worry about what other people do”. I personally think that this latter attitude, as it relates to false logs, will ultimately have a very negative impact on geocaching.

 

I certainly don’t agree with false logs, and I try not to let them bother me, but the fact is they do directly affect me. False logs degrade the game/hobby/sport/activity of geocaching, and what it means to be a geocacher. I am proud to be a geocacher. I fear that one day most geocaching will be done without leaving the computer, and we’ll have allowed it to come to this by ‘looking the other way’ on false logs. I won’t be such a proud geocacher then.

 

A good analogy would be the game/hobby/sport/activity of golf. Could you imagine a person who routinely played golf by merely throwing or kicking the ball around the course? Do you think the other golfers in the foursome would allow this? Do you think the club would allow this? I guarantee nobody would be saying, “It’s not hurting anyone so don’t worry about it”.

 

One might say that golf is a bad analogy because golf is a competition, and geocaching is not. Well I’m not talking about the PGA or a golf tournament. I’m talking about how most people are involved with golf. Although golfers may play a round with other golfers, it’s primarily about how that golfer plays related to how they normally play. They are competing with themselves. However this still does not allow them to change the rules so much that they bastardize the game. Sure golfers might place friendly wagers on their game, but there is just as much friendly competition in geocaching.

 

I am not proposing that everyone must adhere to a very strict set of rules, but false logs are getting a little ridiculous. One of the basic notions of caching is that you actually visit the location. I am proposing that cache owners who agree with the premise of physically visiting the cache location, do their part to enforce it - don’t allow false logs on your caches, and don’t be embarrassed to enforce this basic notion of geocaching.

All right...yep...this thread is specifically about false logs...

 

Sorry my posts responded more to the posts not directly related to the OP's post...my bad...sorry...I will now go hide in the shadows (Off Topic Forum) again...

[+egami]

It would be better to know someone's DNF percentage versus their find count when a DNF gets logged. Numbers cachers typically follow a shorter time limit so they will have a higher percentage of DNFs than people willing to spend a long time look for a cache.

 

Yeah, I could see where that is more helpful. Although, I get the feeling that might just encourage them to not log the DNF's. Kind of the opposite effect of the smiley...

[+sbell111]

Yup, there you have it!

 

Eliminate the published numbers and you solve the problem!

 

Bogus logs would help no one; high numbers or low numbers would not be a way to judge each other.

 

No one would be able to accuse another of being a numbers-ho und and any fear that bogus logs are degrading the game or our collective reputation would be quelled.

 

I certainly wouldn't miss them.

 

I'd go for that, but TPTB never would go for anything that may be detrimental to revenue generating.

I agree. Numbers feed a psychological addiction that many people have. People that are cheating with their numbers are like people that pull cigarette butts out of ashtrays and smoke those. I've asked many times that we be given an option to hide our numbers and this idea always gets shot down. I don't buy the experience excuse. It would be better to know someone's DNF percentage versus their find count when a DNF gets logged. Numbers cachers typically follow a shorter time limit so they will have a higher percentage of DNFs than people willing to spend a long time look for a cache.

Again, people like the caches that they like and search for the amount of time that they want to search for. That doesn't make their experience with the game any less worthy than those cachers who seek out the long hikes to the miraculous vistas. Neither cacher is 'doing it wrong'. By labelling those cachers as 'numbers cachers' you appear to be trying to denigrate them to make it appear that they are somewhat less worthy to play the game the way that they want, which is wrong, in my opinion. Plus,

I think that the numbers are useful for many reasons other than 'being a numbers cacher'. In addition, it's fair to add that many of us have lots of DNFs, but are not 'numbers cachers'. Perhaps, the logic that you are using is not leading you to a correct conclusion.

[MoparMan]

There is is a bigger problem that is degrading geocaching more than false logs. It is the practice of many people who find caches and then never log them online. These selfish individuals deny the cache owners and others the ability to enjoy knowing that cache is there and actively being found. A person may choose to not visit a cache that hasn't been logged online in awhile because they are not sure it is still there. A simple TFTC log would've have avoided this problem. Or imagine the cacher who enjoys the challenge of finding a "lonely" cache - one that hasn't been found in awhile. How will they feel when they find a cache and see that another cacher has singed the log a few days before? Worse is that people who do this are like people who won't tell you what their golf handicap is. How can you tell if that person is a good golfer if they won't tell the score. Do you thing the club will allow this? I for one will do my part as a cache owner and will cross out any name I find in the physical log that didn't log the cache online. That will show them the value of integrity.

 

Guilty, but I have my motivations. In the past I have as a result of work been in the position of being sent all over the country for weeks sometimes months at a time. Often I ended up stuck in a hotel with nothing to do all weekend. I cached, logged in the cache and not online. Simply put I'd rather not advertise to the world at large that I'm 1500 miles from home for the sixth straight week.

 

Paranoid to be sure, but not having to worry about the safety of my family is more important than my stats.

[+Driver Carries Cache]

I don't know why I respond to these posts... but at the risk of being flayed alive I feel someone needs to point out that this is not a problem unique to Geocaching. This is a broader issue concerning modern society and the push to be more and more "permissive" and less "judgemental". You know, the "we don't keep score because someone's feelings might get hurt" mentality. I guess I still come from that "old school" position that believes that things are right or wrong and that there's far less "gray" than some would have us believe. And someone will probably flame me here and say "how can you judge me personally on how I play geocaching... you don't even know me?". It's much like our current political campaigning... folks tell you what they think you want to hear, the only way to judge the moral character of an individual is based upon their prior actions. Yes, I do take into account that people change... we know they do, but your prior actions are still the best bet when judging how you'll behave in the future.

 

Now everyone stand back, I'm about to use the big "C" word... Cheating. Based on my belief in this theory, I'd figure that if you cheat at something as meaningless a geocaching, you must be a real piece of work in your daily interactions outside of geocaching. It's like the old saying "Character is what you do when no one's watching". Character assumes that right and wrong do exist, that there are objective moral standards that transcend individual choice—standards like respect, responsibility, honesty, and fairness. And I'll tell you that geocaching and "find logs" are the ultimate when it comes to "no one watching"... meaning, yes the site and TPTB leave you all the freedom in the world to log things however you want and however many times you wish. I just believe that others should then feel free to judge your character by your actions.

 

Feel free to flame away. I know some will want to argue about the semantics of what is and isn't a find... whether geocaching has "rules" or "guidelines" and what all that means. Some will want to call me "judgemental" or a "puritan" or other various and sundry names. There will be those that say "everyone plays by their own rules" which to me means "I'm unable to comprehend or follow simple instructions, so I make up my own, which keeps me happy"... and then there will be the string of posts shirking any responsibility with the words "it doesn't hurt me so why should I care?".

 

So I guess my answer is yes, we are allowing the degredation of geocaching... but I don't believe we have to accept it.

 

Thanks for the discussion,

 

DCC

[+ArcherDragoon]

It would be better to know someone's DNF percentage versus their find count when a DNF gets logged. Numbers cachers typically follow a shorter time limit so they will have a higher percentage of DNFs than people willing to spend a long time look for a cache.

 

Yeah, I could see where that is more helpful. Although, I get the feeling that might just encourage them to not log the DNF's. Kind of the opposite effect of the smiley...

I would like this feature...When I was very new...I didn't log DNF's...but now I log them and feel they should be logged...they are just as important as a find log...not for the reasons of seeing times...just to see my DNF count more easily

 

...Personally, my DNF count sould be a lot higher then it is now...

 

...From my experience...Numbers Cachers tend not to log DNF's...and that is probably why I didn't log them when I first started. I freely admit Iwas a Numbers person...but that has changed over time. I still like to keep my home area clear, but i don't have a desire anymore to be a top cacher...

Edited January 30, 2008 by ArcherDragoon

[+TrailGators]

Yup, there you have it!

 

Eliminate the published numbers and you solve the problem!

 

Bogus logs would help no one; high numbers or low numbers would not be a way to judge each other.

 

No one would be able to accuse another of being a numbers-ho und and any fear that bogus logs are degrading the game or our collective reputation would be quelled.

 

I certainly wouldn't miss them.

 

I'd go for that, but TPTB never would go for anything that may be detrimental to revenue generating.

I agree. Numbers feed a psychological addiction that many people have. People that are cheating with their numbers are like people that pull cigarette butts out of ashtrays and smoke those. I've asked many times that we be given an option to hide our numbers and this idea always gets shot down. I don't buy the experience excuse. It would be better to know someone's DNF percentage versus their find count when a DNF gets logged. Numbers cachers typically follow a shorter time limit so they will have a higher percentage of DNFs than people willing to spend a long time look for a cache.

Again, people like the caches that they like and search for the amount of time that they want to search for. That doesn't make their experience with the game any less worthy than those cachers who seek out the long hikes to the miraculous vistas. Neither cacher is 'doing it wrong'. By labelling those cachers as 'numbers cachers' you appear to be trying to denigrate them to make it appear that they are somewhat less worthy to play the game the way that they want, which is wrong, in my opinion. Plus,

I think that the numbers are useful for many reasons other than 'being a numbers cacher'. In addition, it's fair to add that many of us have lots of DNFs, but are not 'numbers cachers'. Perhaps, the logic that you are using is not leading you to a correct conclusion.

I was simply stating a fact. There are numbers cachers and they'll happily admit it. I don't see why you consider stating a fact as knocking someone. I could care less if people do this. Anyhow, the point I was really making is that WHY can't I be allowed to hide my numbers? It follows the same argument that you are supporting: Let me play the game the way I see fit...

[+eagletrek]

<snip> I think this issue is between a cacher and their deity of choice and how they reconcile their life.

 

I agree that everyone should play by the guidelines and play fair (trade even/trade up, sign the log), but has this game really become THAT serious?

 

Why yes it has!!!!!! Apparently you didn't get the memo.

[+Bad_CRC]

for the record, I don't distance myself from that comment.

 

I get annoyed at all kinds of things cachers do, and of course, I think everyone should play the game the way I do! (no more micros ever!, only ammo cans! ) Hey, I'm a socially stunted nerd, I can't help it.

 

I try to recognize when I do it though, and I'd hope others would do the same... (wait, did I just do it again?)

[+TrailGators]

It would be better to know someone's DNF percentage versus their find count when a DNF gets logged. Numbers cachers typically follow a shorter time limit so they will have a higher percentage of DNFs than people willing to spend a long time look for a cache.

 

Yeah, I could see where that is more helpful. Although, I get the feeling that might just encourage them to not log the DNF's. Kind of the opposite effect of the smiley...

I would like this feature...When I was very new...I didn't log DNF's...but now I log them and feel they should be logged...they are just as important as a find log...not for the reasons of seeing times...just to see my DNF count more easily

 

...Personally, my DNF count sould be a lot higher then it is now...

 

...From my experience...Numbers Cachers tend not to log DNF's...and that is probably why I didn't log them when I first started. I freely admit Iwas a Numbers person...but that has changed over time. I still like to keep my home area clear, but i don't have a desire anymore to be a top cacher...

I did the same thing. I think a lot of people do. However, my actual DNF percentage is low because I skip any cache that has been DNFed and I also spend a lot of time looking for a cache. So if I DNF a cache it's typically bad news for the cache owner.

[+ArcherDragoon]

Hey,

 

Going to the topic at hand…I don’t obsess about checking online logs versus written logs. If a find looks fake; I will go out and check the physical log book. With that said, I won’t go out of my way to check though…only when it is convenient for me. If it looks to be fake (after checking the logbook)…I would most likely email the cacher in question and wait for a response before deleting the online log.

 

In the past, I probably would have just deleted the log and left it at that…but, after a recent thread…I would start with email before deleting. I have deleted finds in the past…not because they were fake…but because they didn’t meet the requirements of the cache (one Earthcache and a couple Additional Logging Requirement Mystery caches)…about 50/50 on the good responses…

 

Earthcache I received no response until I met the cacher at an event…after that, things were cleared up and she understood what to do to receive credit for that cache. ALR…one no response, a couple good ones with corrections posted as needed and one bad response (I have tried on several attempts to contact the cacher, but nothing).

 

So, I guess that is my take on fake logs…I will check them out if I have reason to believe they are fake.

 

Later,

ArcherDragoon

 

(Calmed down and responding to the topic )

[+sbell111]

If I DNF a cache it's because I can't find it. I don't know how useful an aggregate of that data would be.

[+ArcherDragoon]

I would like this feature...When I was very new...I didn't log DNF's...but now I log them and feel they should be logged...they are just as important as a find log...not for the reasons of seeing times...just to see my DNF count more easily

 

...Personally, my DNF count sould be a lot higher then it is now...

 

...From my experience...Numbers Cachers tend not to log DNF's...and that is probably why I didn't log them when I first started. I freely admit Iwas a Numbers person...but that has changed over time. I still like to keep my home area clear, but i don't have a desire anymore to be a top cacher...

I did the same thing. I think a lot of people do. However, my actual DNF percentage is low because I skip any cache that has been DNFed and I also spend a lot of time looking for a cache. So if I DNF a cache it's typically bad news for the cache owner.

I tend to do the same thing now...I keep searching for that darn cache until I find it...more of a "pride" thing...

[+ArcherDragoon]

If I DNF a cache it's because I can't find it. I don't know how useful an aggregate of that data would be.

Useful can be debated...more of an "interesting" factor for me...

[+sbell111]

If I DNF a cache it's because I can't find it. I don't know how useful an aggregate of that data would be.

Useful can be debated...more of an "interesting" factor for me...

I have 174 DNFs. How interesting is that?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

There is is a bigger problem that is degrading geocaching more than false logs. It is the practice of many people who find caches and then never log them online. These selfish individuals deny the cache owners and others the ability to enjoy knowing that cache is there and actively being found. A person may choose to not visit a cache that hasn't been logged online in awhile because they are not sure it is still there. A simple TFTC log would've have avoided this problem. Or imagine the cacher who enjoys the challenge of finding a "lonely" cache - one that hasn't been found in awhile. How will they feel when they find a cache and see that another cacher has singed the log a few days before? Worse is that people who do this are like people who won't tell you what their golf handicap is. How can you tell if that person is a good golfer if they won't tell the score. Do you thing the club will allow this? I for one will do my part as a cache owner and will cross out any name I find in the physical log that didn't log the cache online. That will show them the value of integrity.

 

Guilty, but I have my motivations. In the past I have as a result of work been in the position of being sent all over the country for weeks sometimes months at a time. Often I ended up stuck in a hotel with nothing to do all weekend. I cached, logged in the cache and not online. Simply put I'd rather not advertise to the world at large that I'm 1500 miles from home for the sixth straight week.

 

Paranoid to be sure, but not having to worry about the safety of my family is more important than my stats.

LOL, what a troll, but I will bite.

 

I owe the cache owner my appreciation and thanks for the hide.

 

I owe them and their cache the respect to treat the cache and cacher as I would want to be treated.

 

I owe them a signed cache log if I am to log it online.

 

NOTHING ELSE!

 

For the last two years I have logged less than half of my finds online. Nobody but myself and the cachers that were with me (I almost never cache alone) know that I was there. The owner will never know unless he happens to read the cache log and sees my signature.

 

Selfish? Not at all. Selfish would be demanding that anyone who visits my cache log it online for my amusement.

[+TrailGators]

If I DNF a cache it's because I can't find it. I don't know how useful an aggregate of that data would be.

More useful than knowing how many finds you have....

[+TrailGators]

I would like this feature...When I was very new...I didn't log DNF's...but now I log them and feel they should be logged...they are just as important as a find log...not for the reasons of seeing times...just to see my DNF count more easily

 

...Personally, my DNF count sould be a lot higher then it is now...

 

...From my experience...Numbers Cachers tend not to log DNF's...and that is probably why I didn't log them when I first started. I freely admit Iwas a Numbers person...but that has changed over time. I still like to keep my home area clear, but i don't have a desire anymore to be a top cacher...

I did the same thing. I think a lot of people do. However, my actual DNF percentage is low because I skip any cache that has been DNFed and I also spend a lot of time looking for a cache. So if I DNF a cache it's typically bad news for the cache owner.

I tend to do the same thing now...I keep searching for that darn cache until I find it...more of a "pride" thing...

For me it's a curiosity thing. I hate leaving with that feeling of wondering where the darn thing was...

[+sbell111]

If I DNF a cache it's because I can't find it. I don't know how useful an aggregate of that data would be.

More useful than knowing how many finds you have....

Why?

 

As I posted above, I have 174 DNFs. How is that number useful to you? Also, since you believe that the of DNFs is more important that the number of finds, How is the fact that I have 174 DNFs useful to you without factoring the number of caches that I have found?

Edited January 30, 2008 by sbell111

[+ArcherDragoon]

If I DNF a cache it's because I can't find it. I don't know how useful an aggregate of that data would be.

Useful can be debated...more of an "interesting" factor for me...

I have 174 DNFs. How interesting is that?

I didn't say about your stats...I thought it would be interesting for me about my stats...sorry, I should have been more clear...

[+TrailGators]

If I DNF a cache it's because I can't find it. I don't know how useful an aggregate of that data would be.

More useful than knowing how many finds you have....

Why? As I posted above, I have 174 DNFs. How is that number useful to you?

I already said earlier that the percentage would be useful. The total number is as useless as is knowing the find count. Edited January 30, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Kit Fox]

I don't know why I respond to these posts... but at the risk of being flayed alive I feel someone needs to point out that this is not a problem unique to Geocaching. This is a broader issue concerning modern society and the push to be more and more "permissive" and less "judgemental". You know, the "we don't keep score because someone's feelings might get hurt" mentality. I guess I still come from that "old school" position that believes that things are right or wrong and that there's far less "gray" than some would have us believe. And someone will probably flame me here and say "how can you judge me personally on how I play geocaching... you don't even know me?". It's much like our current political campaigning... folks tell you what they think you want to hear, the only way to judge the moral character of an individual is based upon their prior actions. Yes, I do take into account that people change... we know they do, but your prior actions are still the best bet when judging how you'll behave in the future.

 

Now everyone stand back, I'm about to use the big "C" word... Cheating. Based on my belief in this theory, I'd figure that if you cheat at something as meaningless a geocaching, you must be a real piece of work in your daily interactions outside of geocaching. It's like the old saying "Character is what you do when no one's watching". Character assumes that right and wrong do exist, that there are objective moral standards that transcend individual choice—standards like respect, responsibility, honesty, and fairness. And I'll tell you that geocaching and "find logs" are the ultimate when it comes to "no one watching"... meaning, yes the site and TPTB leave you all the freedom in the world to log things however you want and however many times you wish. I just believe that others should then feel free to judge your character by your actions.

 

Feel free to flame away. I know some will want to argue about the semantics of what is and isn't a find... whether geocaching has "rules" or "guidelines" and what all that means. Some will want to call me "judgemental" or a "puritan" or other various and sundry names. There will be those that say "everyone plays by their own rules" which to me means "I'm unable to comprehend or follow simple instructions, so I make up my own, which keeps me happy"... and then there will be the string of posts shirking any responsibility with the words "it doesn't hurt me so why should I care?".

 

So I guess my answer is yes, we are allowing the degredation of geocaching... but I don't believe we have to accept it.

 

Thanks for the discussion,

 

DCC

 

My thoughts exactly! DCC for President of Geocachers with Integrity!

Edited January 30, 2008 by Kit Fox

[+eagletrek]

Wait a minute...I thought you said there was NO integrity in geocaching?

 

Generally, I agree, I am not personally going to get worked up over how others log finds...play the game the way you want, but conversely people logging "out of the norm" have to accept that log owner's have the final say.

 

Conversely, I don't criticize people for supporting integrity in the game. If it's their preference that the game have standards that's also their prerogative. They just need to accept that it's never going to be a purist game.

 

At some point we all generally have a line to draw somewhere...

 

It would be nice if there was a recognized branch of geocaching where everyone plays the same game, by the same rules. Consistency would be much appreciated by those of us that prefer "black & white," versus the "rainbow" of "play game the way you want."

 

I couldn't agree more!!!!! If geocaching continues the way it has, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if a separate branch of geocaching develops for those folks who like consistency and appreciate a game that has rules to be followed and not blown off. While I've logged quite a few finds, I only consider a handfull to be really rewarding. In the future, I look forward to only seeking out "worthwhile" caches.

[+eagletrek]

I don't know why I respond to these posts... but at the risk of being flayed alive I feel someone needs to point out that this is not a problem unique to Geocaching. This is a broader issue concerning modern society and the push to be more and more "permissive" and less "judgemental". You know, the "we don't keep score because someone's feelings might get hurt" mentality. I guess I still come from that "old school" position that believes that things are right or wrong and that there's far less "gray" than some would have us believe. And someone will probably flame me here and say "how can you judge me personally on how I play geocaching... you don't even know me?". It's much like our current political campaigning... folks tell you what they think you want to hear, the only way to judge the moral character of an individual is based upon their prior actions. Yes, I do take into account that people change... we know they do, but your prior actions are still the best bet when judging how you'll behave in the future.

 

Now everyone stand back, I'm about to use the big "C" word... Cheating. Based on my belief in this theory, I'd figure that if you cheat at something as meaningless a geocaching, you must be a real piece of work in your daily interactions outside of geocaching. It's like the old saying "Character is what you do when no one's watching". Character assumes that right and wrong do exist, that there are objective moral standards that transcend individual choice—standards like respect, responsibility, honesty, and fairness. And I'll tell you that geocaching and "find logs" are the ultimate when it comes to "no one watching"... meaning, yes the site and TPTB leave you all the freedom in the world to log things however you want and however many times you wish. I just believe that others should then feel free to judge your character by your actions.

 

Feel free to flame away. I know some will want to argue about the semantics of what is and isn't a find... whether geocaching has "rules" or "guidelines" and what all that means. Some will want to call me "judgemental" or a "puritan" or other various and sundry names. There will be those that say "everyone plays by their own rules" which to me means "I'm unable to comprehend or follow simple instructions, so I make up my own, which keeps me happy"... and then there will be the string of posts shirking any responsibility with the words "it doesn't hurt me so why should I care?".

 

So I guess my answer is yes, we are allowing the degredation of geocaching... but I don't believe we have to accept it.

 

Thanks for the discussion,

 

DCC

 

My thoughts exactly! DCC for President of Geocachers with Integrity!

 

Amen to that my brother!!!!!!! He's got my vote!!!!!!

[+HopsMaltYeast]

In my short time geocaching I have observed quite a few behaviors that degrade the integrity of the game:

 

false logs

false discoveries of trackable items

false DNFs

arm chair caching

team caching (where one person makes the find, but the entire team takes credit)

etc.

 

What are you gonna do?

 

A little off topic, but responding to #5 in list above - team caching; Am I doing wrong under these circumstances - I am the only one in my family with a GeoCaching account. Sometimes I go hunting alone, sometimes with my wife and sometimes with wife and son. I log the find under my membership even if HopsMaltYeast Spouse or son finds it before I do.

 

There is only one paper log done and only one online log done. This seems to fit with the spirit of GeoCaching to me.