Armchair logging

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Hola Amigos!

 

Now let me explain, cos it's quite simple.

 

My company's headquarter is located just a few meters down the road. The colleague sitting next to me now did a business travel to Cary. As his Hotel was the Hilton just next to the Cache I asked him to bring me some TBs that want to go to Europe. That's about it.

 

Now the rest is a philosophical question. Is it a Found or not? In my eyes - yes, it is. The cache was found, TBs were taken out, and the logbook was signed. So what? Is the problem, that it was not me in person who logged the cache? If this is really the issue, then I'd be ok changing the Found to a "Write Note", but I think that's not what the rules say, right?

 

Cheers,

HCC

Thank you for your illuminating piece of wisdom. As a result of reading your well-reasoned words, I have reformulated my cache finding strategy and I am now in the process of logging finds on all of your caches and all of the caches in your city. I have the right to do so because I read your post and now, by extension, I deserve finds on all the above-mentioned caches. Thank you!

[Mushtang]

I agree with Briansnats first post, that says it doesn't matter if that's how they want to play, and I also agree with the other posts from folks saying it's between the cache owner and the finder as to what is a find.

 

As a cache owner:

I would never allow an armchair cacher from another country to log a Find on my cache if I knew for a fact they were never here.

Nor would I allow a Find on a cache of mine that had gone missing, simply because the person looking for it determined that they were at the place the cache should have been.

Nor would I allow a Find on a cache of mine if they couldn't get the container open but saw it and thought it was enough.

Nor would I allow multiple Finds on a cache if the person returns again a different day.

 

And I feel this way because as a cache finder:

I would never armchair cache a Find on a cache in another country.

Nor would I log a Find on a cache that had gone missing, simply because I determined that I was at the place the cache should have been.

Nor would I log a Find on a cache if I couldn't get the container open but I saw it.

Nor would I log multiple Finds on a cache if I returned again a different day.

 

However, if anyone else wants to log caches that way, or allow their caches to be logged that way, it doesn't matter to me. Why should it?

 

To me it's like playing Putt Putt with friends. I might choose to play by the "rules", some of the girls might want to fudge a little when dealing with the tricky water hazards, some little kids on the other side of the course might just guide their ball into the hole with one long push of their putter from the tee to the hole and at every hole shout that they got a hole in one. Why should I care? My game is still fun to me.

[+TeamGumbo]

Hola Amigos!

 

*snip*

 

Cheers,

HCC

 

Why not get your colleague to set up an account of his own and log these as his own finds?

 

BTW, my wife's parents live in Wiesbaden, and I plan on hitting a whole BUNCH of caches when I'm there next time (maybe this summer).

 

But, I hardly expect her parents to go looking for caches for me.

 

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

 

Vickers

[+KBI]

The cacher explained exactly what happened.

If I brag about fudging my golf scores, I still cheated. If I log that I found a cache and I wasn't there, hmmmm.

Your comparison illustrates the crucial difference, briansnat.

 

Golf is a competition. In golf, one’s numbers are used to compare directly against the opponent’s numbers for the purpose of determining a winner.

 

Geocaching, last time I checked, is NOT a competition. In Geocaching there is no official comparison of numbers, and there is no officially determined winner. In Geocaching one’s numbers are only used to compare directly against the opponent’s numbers if one chooses to compete ... AND if one chooses an agreeable opponent against whom to compete. Unless I have previously agreed to compete against you, your exaggerated logs have absolutely no effect on me, and cannot meet any meaningful definition of “cheating.”

[+sbell111]

Well, one could also temporarily expand his team to some handy members .

Anyone believing that the famous Coopers Agency is just one person?

Those of us who have met her didn't find evidence of multiple personality disorder.

[+HyperCacheCrew]

To make a long story short... if the owner wants me to change to log to a "Write Note" then he should contact me. We surely can talk about it, but it seems for some of you bashing s/o is the more preferred way of handling such cases.

[Dosido]

If it's just a friendly golf game then I can see the parrallel to caching. Why should I care if a buddy exaggerates a golf score, a fishing story, or a cache log?

Probably depends on whether everyone knows he's exaggerating his story/score, etc. When the paper states that Kim Jong Il shot 5 holes-in-one and was 38 under par in his first ever golf outing, we know that's full of baloney. When President Clinton tells the press he shot 80 when playing against President Ford, we'd hope we can take him at his word. But no, Clinton regularly takes mulligans, and that statement pissed Ford off, as Ford actually scores the game properly.

 

Golf is a great game to measure the honesty and integrity of folks. Those who take liberties in golf, likely do so elsewhere. See: President Clinton.

 

So, is it earth shattering that someone logs a cache that they didn't find, or didn't visit? No. But like fudging your score in golf, it does say something about their character.

 

Edited to add links.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Dosido

[+KJcachers]

perhaps the cacher in question is disabled and can't make a physical visit to any caches? Would you then delete the find or make an exception to the rule? If I were homebound I could see how this could still be a fun game to be involved with. I think I would go the "team" route though to avoid any problems.

I would still delete the log in a heartbeat. My expectation is that anyone claiming a find on one of my three caches has actually found the cache and signed the log. That's the way I play the game, anyway. There are lots of other "virtual worlds" people can get involved with.

 

--Larry

Tough crowd, I hope you or I never get disabled or we will have to find a new hobby. I was thinking I could stay at home and solve puzzles and the wife could go do the find so we as a team could still keep caching if something ever happened but I guess not according to your rules.

[+egami]

However, if anyone else wants to log caches that way, or allow their caches to be logged that way, it doesn't matter to me. Why should it?

 

To me it's like playing Putt Putt with friends. I might choose to play by the "rules", some of the girls might want to fudge a little when dealing with the tricky water hazards, some little kids on the other side of the course might just guide their ball into the hole with one long push of their putter from the tee to the hole and at every hole shout that they got a hole in one. Why should I care? My game is still fun to me.

 

Integrity.

 

It matters to me because I care about the integrity of the game. At some point the more people that take more liberties in the game cause an effect on others.

 

I know it's a popular mentality to have on forums now to be all hakuna matata, but it's ok for people to have a sense of pride and ownership in geocaching and for them to want things to remain relatively within the definition of the intent of the game.

 

Take your Putt Putt example, it's a great example...most people don't have qualms with some of those rules being bent in the manner you described. Conversely, most of us don't want to play with outright cheaters. In this particular case we're talking about a grown adult cheating the game.

 

So, it's a bit of both...on one hand, not a big deal, but on the other hand there is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting to maintain integrity in the game either.

[+CM-14]

Sounds like an easy delete to me.....

[+bevema]

Well, one could also temporarily expand his team to some handy members .

Anyone believing that the famous Coopers Agency is just one person?

Those of us who have met her didn't find evidence of multiple personality disorder.

Wow!

Really just a single person?

My deepest apologies in that case.

 

I was quite sure that at least a 3 person team cached using this nick.

[+HyperCacheCrew]

Why not get your colleague to set up an account of his own and log these as his own finds?

 

Reason: My colleague does not like Geocaching. He just did it because I asked him to do so. All he should do was to bring some TBs to Europe. Now from an outdoor perspective... if you take TBs from a TB Hotel... Can you do it without finding the cache? I don't think so except they are laying around somewhere outside the cache.

[+ArcherDragoon]

Why not get your colleague to set up an account of his own and log these as his own finds?

 

Reason: My colleague does not like Geocaching. He just did it because I asked him to do so. All he should do was to bring some TBs to Europe. Now from an outdoor perspective... if you take TBs from a TB Hotel... Can you do it without finding the cache? I don't think so except they are laying around somewhere outside the cache.

But...there is the point of the people that have responded in this thread...some feel you didn't find the cache. I, for one, would not count that as a find. I have had several cachers visit caches for me just to get some bugs moving...and I have had family members do the same that do not have accounts...and yet I have never logged a find on those caches and will not log a find until I find those caches.

 

Do I agree or disagree with what happened???

-Moving the TB's is fine

-Having a buddy grab those TB's for you is fine

-Logging a find on that cache under the circumstances as we know it...sorry, I don't agree

 

As to others...the argument is not whether or not a cacher is handicapped in some way...sure, it is a valid question...but until we hear more from HCC regarding this...is being handicapped really important to this particular topic posed by the OP???

 

***Disclaimer...these are just the opinions of ArcherDragoon and in no way reflect upon the rules of the game

[+TeamGumbo]

My colleague does not like Geocaching.

 

Yeah, I have a colleague like that, he only likes solving the puzzles...the actual geocaching is secondary.

 

Oh, and he logs his finds under his own name.

 

MfG,

 

Vickers

[Mushtang]

However, if anyone else wants to log caches that way, or allow their caches to be logged that way, it doesn't matter to me. Why should it?

 

To me it's like playing Putt Putt with friends. I might choose to play by the "rules", some of the girls might want to fudge a little when dealing with the tricky water hazards, some little kids on the other side of the course might just guide their ball into the hole with one long push of their putter from the tee to the hole and at every hole shout that they got a hole in one. Why should I care? My game is still fun to me.

 

Integrity.

 

It matters to me because I care about the integrity of the game. At some point the more people that take more liberties in the game cause an effect on others.

 

I know it's a popular mentality to have on forums now to be all hakuna matata, but it's ok for people to have a sense of pride and ownership in geocaching and for them to want things to remain relatively within the definition of the intent of the game.

 

Take your Putt Putt example, it's a great example...most people don't have qualms with some of those rules being bent in the manner you described. Conversely, most of us don't want to play with outright cheaters. In this particular case we're talking about a grown adult cheating the game.

 

So, it's a bit of both...on one hand, not a big deal, but on the other hand there is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting to maintain integrity in the game either.

Integrity exists when folks are out just having fun?

Little kids playing Putt Putt should adhere to the rules because of integrity instead of having more fun doing it their way?

 

I was on a date with a girl and we went to play Putt Putt. We started out playing by the rules, but after just a few holes she was more interested in cutting up and being silly, so we started doing things like putting only left handed, or switching balls every other shot, or shooting with the end of the putter like a pool cue, and we had more fun than any other game I've ever played. Did I lose integrity? If I lost your respect for my Putt Putt game I can't begin to tell you how little I care.

 

The value you place on my geocaching Find count (or anyone else's) is equally meaningless to me. Integrity doesn't enter into a game with no rules and no competition. It simply cannot.

[+egami]

perhaps the cacher in question is disabled and can't make a physical visit to any caches? Would you then delete the find or make an exception to the rule? If I were homebound I could see how this could still be a fun game to be involved with. I think I would go the "team" route though to avoid any problems.

I would still delete the log in a heartbeat. My expectation is that anyone claiming a find on one of my three caches has actually found the cache and signed the log. That's the way I play the game, anyway. There are lots of other "virtual worlds" people can get involved with.

 

--Larry

Tough crowd, I hope you or I never get disabled or we will have to find a new hobby. I was thinking I could stay at home and solve puzzles and the wife could go do the find so we as a team could still keep caching if something ever happened but I guess not according to your rules.

 

This is kind of a Straw Man argument...it's not really for you to assume that those that would disallow the find for integrity purposes would automatically equate the situations to someone who seemingly just wanted to do this out of mere convenience.

[+KJcachers]

As to others...the argument is not whether or not a cacher is handicapped in some way...sure, it is a valid question...but until we hear more from HCC regarding this...is being handicapped really important to this particular topic posed by the OP???

 

***Disclaimer...these are just the opinions of ArcherDragoon and in no way reflect upon the rules of the game

 

Sorry about sidetracking this thread, maybe I should start another one about team caching vs individual caching.

[+egami]

Integrity exists when folks are out just having fun?

Little kids playing Putt Putt should adhere to the rules because of integrity instead of having more fun doing it their way?

 

I was on a date with a girl and we went to play Putt Putt. We started out playing by the rules, but after just a few holes she was more interested in cutting up and being silly, so we started doing things like putting only left handed, or switching balls every other shot, or shooting with the end of the putter like a pool cue, and we had more fun than any other game I've ever played. Did I lose integrity? If I lost your respect for my Putt Putt game I can't begin to tell you how little I care.

 

The value you place on my geocaching Find count (or anyone else's) is equally meaningless to me. Integrity doesn't enter into a game with no rules and no competition. It simply cannot.

 

Integrity exists in every aspect of life. It's no more wrong for people to criticize how he chooses to play the game than it is for you to suggest people can't maintain a sense of integrity in the game.

Edited January 29, 2008 by egami

[+HyperCacheCrew]

-Logging a find on that cache under the circumstances as we know it...sorry, I don't agree

 

As I said... I'm just waiting for the owner to contact me. I'm very open to discuss this case with him personally.

 

Or is this now a democratic thing, and the people decide what has to happen to my log?! jk

[+ArcherDragoon]

-Logging a find on that cache under the circumstances as we know it...sorry, I don't agree

 

As I said... I'm just waiting for the owner to contact me. I'm very open to discuss this case with him personally.

 

Or is this now a democratic thing, and the people decide what has to happen to my log?! jk

Don't worry, I saw the "jk"...but just to be clear...what happens between you and the cache owner is fine with me...just stating my opinion on my own caching style.

 

Should something like this happen on a cache of mine...at least a thread has come to light to make me think and my first step would be to email the cacher that posted the find and clarify what happened. Now, keep in mind, I am not saying it was wrong for this thread to start...I think all treads have their value. Just like anything else...each story has more than one side and I am glad we have at least been able to hear that in this thread.

 

If we are going the "democratic" route and have to vote...my vote would be for the two of you to work things out and forget about the rest of us!!!

[+egami]

-Logging a find on that cache under the circumstances as we know it...sorry, I don't agree

 

As I said... I'm just waiting for the owner to contact me. I'm very open to discuss this case with him personally.

 

Or is this now a democratic thing, and the people decide what has to happen to my log?! jk

Don't worry, I saw the "jk"...but just to be clear...what happens between you and the cache owner is fine with me...just stating my opinion on my own caching style.

 

Should something like this happen on a cache of mine...at least a thread has come to light to make me think and my first step would be to email the cacher that posted the find and clarify what happened. Now, keep in mind, I am not saying it was wrong for this thread to start...I think all treads have their value. Just like anything else...each story has more than one side and I am glad we have at least been able to hear that in this thread.

 

If we are going the "democratic" route and have to vote...my vote would be for the two of you to work things out and forget about the rest of us!!!

 

I'll contact the Florida people to do the count...

[Mushtang]

Integrity exists in every aspect of life. It's no more wrong for people to criticize how he chooses to play the game than it is for you to suggest people can't maintain a sense of integrity in the game.

I disagree. That's like saying it's no more wrong for someone to stand on the edge of a Putt Putt course telling all the little kids that they have to follow the rules or be ashamed of their lack of integrity, than it is for me to walk up to that person and suggest they lighten up and stop trying to make the kids feel bad.

 

By the way, lighten up.

[+egami]

Integrity exists in every aspect of life. It's no more wrong for people to criticize how he chooses to play the game than it is for you to suggest people can't maintain a sense of integrity in the game.

I disagree. That's like saying it's no more wrong for someone to stand on the edge of a Putt Putt course telling all the little kids that they have to follow the rules or be ashamed of their lack of integrity, than it is for me to walk up to that person and suggest they lighten up and stop trying to make the kids feel bad.

 

By the way, lighten up.

 

I think you're representing my stance pretty unfairly if you go back and look at my first reply to your Putt Putt example...you're taking me out of context based on this last reply.

[+KBI]

If it's just a friendly golf game then I can see the parrallel to caching. Why should I care if a buddy exaggerates a golf score, a fishing story, or a cache log?

Probably depends on whether everyone knows he's exaggerating his story/score, etc. When the paper states that Kim Jong Il shot 5 holes-in-one and was 38 under par in his first ever golf outing, we know that's full of baloney. When President Clinton tells the press he shot 80 when playing against President Ford, we'd hope we can take him at his word. But no, Clinton regularly takes mulligans, and that statement pissed Ford off, as Ford actually scores the game properly.

Bill Clinton arguably took one of the most famous "mulligans" in history when he pointed his indignant finger at me from inside my TV and told you, me, and everyone else "I did NOT have sexual relations with that woman ..."

 

And as if that weren't bad enough, he also lied to a federal judge in court, a crime for which by all rights he should have gone to prison. When Clinton escaped justice and put himself above the law there were millions of victims.

 

Bill Clinton has absolutely zero credibility with me.

 

Golf is a great game to measure the honesty and integrity of folks. Those who take liberties in golf, likely do so elsewhere. See: President Clinton.

 

So, is it earth shattering that someone logs a cache that they didn't find, or didn't visit? No. But like fudging your score in golf, it does say something about their character.

I agree completely. If the remote logger didn't seem to see a problem logging the cache from his chair, it says quite a bit about his character. He harmed his own credibility and diminished the meaning of his present and future find count. He Clintoned himself.

 

His character and his credibility are not the issue, however. The point is that his behavior doesn’t hurt anyone but himself. Neither you nor I are victims, therefore there is no crime.

 

Would I delete the bogus log if I were the cache owner? Probably. That's because I want my cache's logs to reflect the truth.

 

It's none of my business, however, what the cache owner in the OP decides. That's between him and the remote logger.

Edited January 29, 2008 by KBI

[+ArcherDragoon]

<<<snip>>>

I'll contact the Florida people to do the count...

That would be great!!! They would bring some order to this thread...

Edited January 29, 2008 by ArcherDragoon

[+WascoZooKeeper]

[+tozainamboku]

As to others...the argument is not whether or not a cacher is handicapped in some way...sure, it is a valid question...but until we hear more from HCC regarding this...is being handicapped really important to this particular topic posed by the OP???

 

***Disclaimer...these are just the opinions of ArcherDragoon and in no way reflect upon the rules of the game

 

Sorry about sidetracking this thread, maybe I should start another one about team caching vs individual caching.

Sounds like a good idea. Some people really really must want to be able to compare the find counts of two different users as if geocaching were a competition where the one with the most finds wins. They get upset by people with team accounts who sometimes log a cache when only part of the team is present. They get really upset if the team splits up and each part finds different caches on the same day. Usually a family who participate in geocaching as family activity use a team account as it is more convenient than each person have their own account and maybe saves some money by not having to get several premium memberships. Sometimes, for various reasons, one member of the team goes out alone and finds a cache. I don't understand why the puritans get so upset by this.

 

In this case, a cacher asked a colleague to visit a cache to retrieve some travel bugs. The colleague is not a geocacher and doesn't have his own account. However the cache owner is probably interested that his cache was found or not. So this cacher used his own account to record the cache was found. I would hope that if the colleague had searched and not found the cache, he would have logged a DNF. Yet the puritans might get upset. How could he log a DNF on a cache in North Carolina with out leaving Austria? The cacher doesn't seem to be doing this to inflate his find count, but simply to record that the cache was found and that Travel Bugs were moved. Sure you could log a Write Note to move the bugs and let the cache owner know the cache was found. But what about local cachers who are waiting to see if the cache is found or who check the last found date or look at the last four logs in GSAK to decide if they want to hunt a cache? They might pass up a cache because the last log is a Note.

 

I am frankly tired of the the integrity argument being brought up every time someone uses the Found It log in a way the puritans have decided is against the rules. Of course the guidelines do say that the cache owner should delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

In this case, if the cache owner thinks that Found It should only be used if the account holder actually visited his cache he should simply email a note to ask them to change the log to a Note. There was no need to start a topic in the forum to call out that some had done this.

[+ArcherDragoon]

As to others...the argument is not whether or not a cacher is handicapped in some way...sure, it is a valid question...but until we hear more from HCC regarding this...is being handicapped really important to this particular topic posed by the OP???

 

***Disclaimer...these are just the opinions of ArcherDragoon and in no way reflect upon the rules of the game

 

Sorry about sidetracking this thread, maybe I should start another one about team caching vs individual caching.

Sounds like a good idea. Some people really really must want to be able to compare the find counts of two different users as if geocaching were a competition where the one with the most finds wins. They get upset by people with team accounts who sometimes log a cache when only part of the team is present. They get really upset if the team splits up and each part finds different caches on the same day. Usually a family who participate in geocaching as family activity use a team account as it is more convenient than each person have their own account and maybe saves some money by not having to get several premium memberships. Sometimes, for various reasons, one member of the team goes out alone and finds a cache. I don't understand why the puritans get so upset by this.

 

In this case, a cacher asked a colleague to visit a cache to retrieve some travel bugs. The colleague is not a geocacher and doesn't have his own account. However the cache owner is probably interested that his cache was found or not. So this cacher used his own account to record the cache was found. I would hope that if the colleague had searched and not found the cache, he would have logged a DNF. Yet the puritans might get upset. How could he log a DNF on a cache in North Carolina with out leaving Austria? The cacher doesn't seem to be doing this to inflate his find count, but simply to record that the cache was found and that Travel Bugs were moved. Sure you could log a Write Note to move the bugs and let the cache owner know the cache was found. But what about local cachers who are waiting to see if the cache is found or who check the last found date or look at the last four logs in GSAK to decide if they want to hunt a cache? They might pass up a cache because the last log is a Note.

 

I am frankly tired of the the integrity argument being brought up every time someone uses the Found It log in a way the puritans have decided is against the rules. Of course the guidelines do say that the cache owner should delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

In this case, if the cache owner thinks that Found It should only be used if the account holder actually visited his cache he should simply email a note to ask them to change the log to a Note. There was no need to start a topic in the forum to call out that some had done this.

Trust me...I already know there are things I do that the "puritans" in geocaching don't like.

 

Like I said...whatever happens between the cache owner and the logger is completely up to them. Other than that...if you got 100 finds or 1000 finds or 10,000 finds you are still a cacher in my mind. Until I personally meet a cacher, I try not to make judgements...

 

Under these circumstances, I would not have logged a find (again only my opinion...right or wrong is not up to me...I only offered my thoughts, nothing more). Looking back...had the account been a team account...I would think it probably would not have been such a big deal...

 

KJcachers...I don't think you were sidetracking the thread...just didn't want the thread to turn into anything more than it needed. If you do create a Team-Caching thread...I would gladly participate in it!!!

 

tozainamboku...wise as always!!!

[+ArcherDragoon]

As to others...the argument is not whether or not a cacher is handicapped in some way...sure, it is a valid question...but until we hear more from HCC regarding this...is being handicapped really important to this particular topic posed by the OP???

 

***Disclaimer...these are just the opinions of ArcherDragoon and in no way reflect upon the rules of the game

 

Maybe "rules" of the game would have been more appropriate since I am not "pure of heart"...

[+Moose Mob]

I would like to remind everyone that this is a light and fun sport. If you find yourself getting upset over how other people are playing the game, then you are missing the point.

 

Since there are too many post that cross the "respect" line, I will close this thread so folks have a chance to cool off.

 

Thanks for playing.