Appropriate? Or not?

[+tobe4evr1]

There is a fairly new cache in the Central Oregon area that has some interesting contents. The listing tells you not to trade anything, and when you get to the cache, you should read what's inside and you will understand. I have attached a snapshot of what's inside and included here.

 

My question is this.....not do we all enjoy new caches.....the obvious answer there is of course!!!!

 

But do we make a list....with peoples names on it.....place it in the cache container and say these people are good and contributing and these people are bad or "takers" and not contributing? I think that's a little extreme.

 

We have a cacher in our area that had a better idea in the same spirit. He placed a cache called Spawn or something like that. Inside his container he had many pre-put together and ready to go containers, to help encourage new caches. This was very successful.

 

The cache with a list of names seems to me to be a bit inappropriate. The sport of geocaching means many things to many different people and people contribute in many ways.

 

I am a cacher with almost 3000 finds and I have 70 hides. That % works out to be far less than one %, hides to finds ratio. I do my best to share my small amount of knowledge with new cachers, talk it up with interested folks, plan events and cache excursions. Does this mean I'm a "taker" and not doing my fair share? Do we actually need to look at fellow cachers and measure their contribution status and then publish that?

 

I'm curious what your take on this is?

 

Sorry the picture is hard to read....but if you save it you can make it bigger and read it.

 

[+Kealia]

So, is this cache in fact empty except for this list?

 

And this shows everybody's (locals) find vs hide ratio as a means to say that some are not giving back?

[+9Key]

It's their cache - they pretty much put what they like in it as long as it doesn't violate the guidelines. I think its a very odd thing to put in a cache. I'm at about 16% if he wants to add me to the list.

[Mr.Yuck]

So, is this cache in fact empty except for this list?

 

And this shows everybody's (locals) find vs hide ratio as a means to say that some are not giving back?

 

That's pretty wacked! But he's entitlted to his opinion, and can do anything he wants, as long as it doesn't violate the guidelines. There have been several "cachers who don't give back" threads here in the forums, and the opinions here usually run pretty unanimously opposed to his point of view.

[+tobe4evr1]

So, is this cache in fact empty except for this list?

 

And this shows everybody's (locals) find vs hide ratio as a means to say that some are not giving back?

 

Yes this list shows mostly locals and a handful of cachers from nearby towns. They use the hide to find ratio as a measuring stick.

 

The container contains a log and this list....with specific instructions not to leave trade items. The container is an ammo can.

[+mvigor]

I find that list incredibly rude. Right now at 16/1 I have 6.25%, but I can tell you that I plan on never maintaining more caches than I can count on both hands. So down the road when I've found 500 and only planted 10, I'll be down to 2% and if I make it to, say, 2000 finds, my percentage will be 0.5%. My point being that I *am* actively giving back, doing my small part. Those other caches are out there to be found...should I feel guilty going after them? Plus, I plan on hiding mainly ammo cans. I *could* order 20 nanos for $20 and stick them to everything magnetic in town, but I'm not going to.

 

I wouldn't expect that printed sheet to last long inside that cache after the wrong person sees it.

Edited January 24, 2008 by mvigor

[+Machuco]

This hobby is, to different people, different things. Some like to hide, some do not. Some hide that shouldn't, and some don't that should. It is what you make of it. But I don't think it is reasonable to assume that all people should play it the same as you.

[+Stargazer22]

Is that all that's in the cache? And the owner says no swag trading?

That sort of seems like an agenda to me.

But maybe that's just my perception.

 

I personally would not be too happy if my name was on the list.

Anyone who wants to see my hide to find ratio is welcome to look, but to advertise that fact is a little different, expecially if some connotation is associated with the names.

[+tobe4evr1]

So, is this cache in fact empty except for this list?

 

And this shows everybody's (locals) find vs hide ratio as a means to say that some are not giving back?

 

That's pretty wacked! But he's entitlted to his opinion, and can do anything he wants, as long as it doesn't violate the guidelines. There have been several "cachers who don't give back" threads here in the forums, and the opinions here usually run pretty unanimously opposed to his point of view.

 

I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion and the forums are a great place for them.

 

This cache actually does violate the geocaching guidelines. No caches are allowed that show some sort of agenda. This one screams agenda. I think no cacher should be named or insulted in a cache. Trust me this is not a personal vendetta for me...my name is not on this list. However I know many that are and they are some of the biggest contributors to this sport.

[+mvigor]

Just look at that list! Many of the people are towards the bottom of it due only to their large number of finds...yet they have hidden dozens, sometimes a hundred or more caches! I would say they have contributed!

[+Okiebryan]

I'm at about 10%. I'd like others around me to hide more caches so that I can go caching without driving 20-30 miles. However, this finding this list in a cache would piss me off. A lot. I probably would ignore that cacher's hides for a long time.

[+Airhead-kb]

I realize all of this is in my profile, BUT

 

I followed some suggestions here and found almost 100 finds before I hid my first cache.

 

I plan on hiding about that same ratio on out.

 

Some of those people with high hide numberes - should we go back and check active hides?

I've seen a few newbs that drop a film can every block only to have them muggled before they can have a ftf, so the fact that you've got 20 finds and 50 hides with a 250% rating really means nothing to me.

 

The poor guy at the bottom of the list with over 4k finds and 6 hides. My guess is he is on the road a lot and not able to maintain much more than those 6 caches near him. Power to him. (and I bet he can really move some TB's)

 

So, why as nobody taken the swag (list) and left a new clean logbook to sign?

(flame on)

Edited January 24, 2008 by Airhead-kb

[+Miragee]

To answer your question in the Title, I think that is very inappropriate. There are many reasons why people don't hide caches, but they give back to the community in other ways.

 

If I were heading up that way, that cache would be on my Ignore list . . .

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

THe person who made that list is proclaiming his narrowmindedness to the caching world.

Is a person who finds 39 caches and places 19 giving more than the cacher who finds 4500 and places 40? No. The percentages don't matter beans to anyone who understands caching.

Edited January 24, 2008 by Cpt.Blackbeard

[+Kealia]

I would agree that it's rude. There are MANY ways to give back - CITO, trade up, help newbies, host events, maintain the caches that you do place, etc.

 

Using just stats, anybody can make anything look good or bad. In any case, it's a narrow view of a bigger picture.

[+sbell111]

The cacher is rude and shortsighted.

 

The cache appears to be in violation of the 'agenda' guideline and probably should be archived.

[+DeRock & The Psychic Cacher]

Totally Inappropriate!

 

I'm with the OP- "This cache actually does violate the geocaching guidelines. No caches are allowed that show some sort of agenda. This one screams agenda."

 

And that is why the cache page doesn't tell very much, because it never would have been approved if it had.

 

Around here that cache wouldn't last very long. Either it would come up missing or would be reported to a reviewer.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

[+mvigor]

Around here that cache wouldn't last very long. Either it would come up missing or

 

Yes, I for one, upon seeing MY username in there, would take out the trash and leave swag in its place.

Edited January 24, 2008 by mvigor

[+proimion]

I think it depends on the area. Do there need to be more caches in the area? If so, there is nothing wrong with encouraging people to do so. In this case, however, I don't think calling people out like this would be very encouraging.

 

I tried to place a cache once, and a good one, too. But it got hung up in the approval phase, accidentally removed from the queue, and I just don't have time to get it through. And I don't feel any need to hide a cache since there are an astonishing 3,711 GC records listed within 5 miles of my house! If anything, we need people to stop putting up caches here in Metro Denver, especially if they are just going to wedge a film cannister in a fence post, tie one to a tree branch, or upskirt a lamp post.

[Scamp]

That seems really inappropriate and, to be honest, just plain silly. I know that I for one would rather find one well-maintained, obviously cared-for cache than 20 junk ones.

 

I've got one active cache. I check it at least once every two weeks to make sure it is clean, dry, and stocked up with swag. I've been considering maybe one day setting up a second one. Maybe.

 

Judging someone's contribution by the find to hide ratio is just rubbish. If people can hide 100 caches and keep them all in lovely shape, more power to them, but for the rest of us, it is better to contribute a little and do it well than to contribute a lot and do it poorly-- even if that means that you hide NO caches at all. Owning zero caches is better than leaving junk out there just to boost your numbers.

[Mr.Yuck]

So, is this cache in fact empty except for this list?

 

And this shows everybody's (locals) find vs hide ratio as a means to say that some are not giving back?

 

That's pretty wacked! But he's entitlted to his opinion, and can do anything he wants, as long as it doesn't violate the guidelines. There have been several "cachers who don't give back" threads here in the forums, and the opinions here usually run pretty unanimously opposed to his point of view.

 

I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion and the forums are a great place for them.

 

This cache actually does violate the geocaching guidelines. No caches are allowed that show some sort of agenda. This one screams agenda. I think no cacher should be named or insulted in a cache. Trust me this is not a personal vendetta for me...my name is not on this list. However I know many that are and they are some of the biggest contributors to this sport.

 

Generally, TPTB tend to leave alone caches with a "geocaching agenda". For example caches with an anti or pro "lame micro" type of agenda. That's just a personal observation though.

 

Edit to add: Whoopsie, I'm only at 2.22%

Edited January 24, 2008 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+Pirates of Tuskegee]

I would agree that it's a bit rude. But then again, to some people, it's all about the numbers.

 

I for one have found 122, and have hidden NONE. That's because I am going to be moving soon and I think that it would be unfair for me to place a cache knowing that I won't be able to take care of it in the near future. I will hide some when i get into a more permanent place, but until then, I will continue the search.

 

I give back in other ways. I perform maint on caches that I come accross that need it, I CITO, and I always trade up, or even leave stuff and take nothing if the cache needs more swag.

Edited January 24, 2008 by Pirates of Tuskegee

[+ZSandmann]

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...40-016a42e5753a

 

Seems like someone peed in their Wheaties. Since I don't live in the area I won't comment further.

[+mvigor]

To the OP, I say post that photo you took in his cache gallery. It's not a spoiler, just an image of some of the swag.

[+tobe4evr1]

Totally Inappropriate!

 

And that is why the cache page doesn't tell very much, because it never would have been approved if it had.

 

Around here that cache wouldn't last very long. Either it would come up missing or would be reported to a reviewer.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

 

I actually did report this to a reviewer and I was told that they are not the "cache log police or what's in a container police". I actually think they should be or someone should be when one finds something offensive in a cache or contrary to caching guidelines.

[+DeRock & The Psychic Cacher]

Generally, TPTB tend to leave alone caches with a "geocaching agenda". For example caches with an anti or pro "lame micro" type of agenda. That's just a personal observation though.

 

Generally is right but not in this case. If he had just explained his views then it would be OK. But when you name names the whole situation changes.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

[+R.O.B]

My percentage is actually going down and I couldn't be happier because some of the caches that weren't my favorite hides are not getting replaced when the go missing. I'm archiving them instead.

I think it's a disservice to the geocaching community to expect people to maintain some artificial percentage. That's how we end up with so many bad caches. People believe they need to place more caches, not better caches.

9Key....where do you think Geo Dee ranks on the list with 7246 finds and 1 active hide....?

[+StarBrand]

Wow - that is just in poor taste.

 

There are many ways to give back that do not include hiding: CITO, events, teaching, writing good logs, maintaining caches, trading up, working with land managers, participating in local groups, getting on forums etc etc

[+DeRock & The Psychic Cacher]

Totally Inappropriate!

 

And that is why the cache page doesn't tell very much, because it never would have been approved if it had.

 

Around here that cache wouldn't last very long. Either it would come up missing or would be reported to a reviewer.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

 

I actually did report this to a reviewer and I was told that they are not the "cache log police or what's in a container police". I actually think they should be or someone should be when one finds something offensive in a cache or contrary to caching guidelines.

 

Well, then I guess the other option I mentioned would be appropriate!

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

[+Team GeoBlast]

I am a cacher with almost 3000 finds and I have 70 hides. That % works out to be far less than one %, hides to finds ratio. I do my best to share my small amount of knowledge with new cachers, talk it up with interested folks, plan events and cache excursions. Does this mean I'm a "taker" and not doing my fair share? Do we actually need to look at fellow cachers and measure their contribution status and then publish that?

 

D---

 

Well let me be the first to say that you ARE a taker! You -took- me, my 70 something year old mother, her 90 something year old boyfriend, my very cautious girlfriend (all total strangers to you) on a GREAT night caching adventure when we were in Oregon last. Something none of us will forget anytime soon.

 

Here's my -take- on this, Geocaching ethics vary greatly from individual to individual. This fellow has connected a certain ratio of hides to finds as a measure of absolute contribution to the game. In fact, he is so committed to his conviction that he feels that it worth your while to send you all the way out into the woods to read about his opinion. As odd as this is, this person probably didn't do this out of malice. He REALLY felt his message was that important and if you read it, it would make a difference in your community.

 

I think that your personal assessment of contribution to the game is more inline with most folks I know. There's a lot of ways to give back and I think what is important is that everyone understands that our Geocaching sum is only as good as its parts. What makes Geocaching the wonderful activity is that most folks understand the importance of "giving back" in a manner that they are comfortable with and do so freely and regularly.

 

Hey... maybe we can hook up in early August 08? I'll be back in the hood.

Edited January 24, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[+CYBret]

Sweet! I'm barely at 1%!

 

I obviously don't do jack for this game.

 

Be sure to add me to the list.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

The cacher is rude and shortsighted.

 

The cache appears to be in violation of the 'agenda' guideline and probably should be archived.

I agree 100% with sbell111; thanks for stating it so succinctly. Further, I feel that the use of find/hide ratio to determine a cacher's contribution to the geo community to be ridiculous and irrelevant. Lastly, who put the hider of the cache in question on a pedestal and gave them the right to rank other cachers for their "contributions" or lack thereof?

[+uxorious]

I agree with those that say this cache has an agenda, and probably should be Archived. If I found it and my name was on the list, I would either remove the entire list, or at the very least use my knife to cut and remove my name.

 

I have seven hides out there so far. I have no immediate plans to plant anymore. I do have a couple made up, and when and if I find somewhere I feel a cache would work, I'll put more out. However, I refuse to hide a cache just because.

 

NRV caches can still be fun to find, and the same with micro spew. It does seem to me however, that much of the time caches like that could be made a lot more fun with a little more effort. A little more time selecting a container, a little more thought on placement, and maybe moving a hundred feet or so could make the difference. Making someone feel guilty about their find/hide ratio only encourages poor hide.

 

Seem like most of the people around here who have high numbers of hides and have been around a while have great hides. People who like to hide generally hide a lot, those that don't like to shouldn't be made to feel they have to.

[+TeamGumbo]

I hope he made a *LOT* of copies of that sheet.

[+frex3wv]

Just to add my 2 cents:

 

I have found 114 and hidden 5. That may not be alot - but those 5 have given local cachers new ones to look for (and I think they have liked them all based on the logs).

 

We hid them because I knew of an area that didn't have any, and we wanted to do it as a family activity, not because we HAD to or was obligated to.

By the same token - I don't expect anybody else to hide any (though i certainly hope they do).

 

Is the cache idea "Cache it Forward" a good one - yes.

Did this person handle it well - NOT AT ALL!

 

To be honest - I'd hate to be them after people find it - and their name - on the goofy list.

 

Bet those logs are some real interesting ones.

[+ReZappers]

I think it's inappropriate to make this personal. Keep people's names out of it.

However, I think most people will look at those ratios and judge for themselves that these cachers on the list are doing just fine. Plus, there are many other ways to be a good cacher besides just placing caches. I'm a newbie, only started in November, and I got addicted quickly. However, I try to be very prompt about logging and moving TBs; I post pictures to enhance the log; I bring extra mini pencils, little pencil sharpeners and ziploc bags with me for caches that need them; and if it's not far from the car, I've brought wet logs to the car and dried them with the car heater, dried out the cache container and tried to make it more waterproof. I think these things are certainly important contributions as well. I live in suburban NJ near NYC with a very high concentration of caches. I've been researching where I can place my first caches, but there are hundreds of them out there. The sport will not suffer in my area if I personally don't have a high ratio of caches I've placed. I wouldn't judge geocachers on any ratio like that, and I hope no one judges me like that either.

[+The NVG]

You guys are missing out on some fun, here. The hider has an agenda that he trying to promote with this cache. Well, doesn't every cacher. Such as:

 

Best Looking Cacher

Funniest Cacher

Cacher Most Likely to Succeed

 

and so on and so on.

 

Future and past finders could generate their own lists and leave them in the cache as a "trade" item. Maybe a competition would develop on the creativity of the lists left behind. It would be a fun way to "get" other area cachers by what position they are on your list.

Edited January 24, 2008 by The NVG

[+nikcap]

Yeah, that's not really cool.

I hope the hider asked each user permission before he/she added them to the list.

I really don't subscribe to the 10% rule, or any ratio rule for that matter. Simple, some people are good at hiding caches, coming up with good camo and creating containers. Some people are good at finding caches.

For myself, I am most comfortable maintaining 40-50 caches, and even at that, it sometimes takes me longer then I am happy with to do maintenance.

If caching forward means more film cans and nanos in parking lots or gladeware containers 50ft from the parking lot hidden in a pile of debris, no thanks!

I don't see how this really helps the game.

[+Airhead-kb]

You guys are missing out on some fun, here. The hider has an agenda that he trying to promote with this cache. Well, doesn't every cacher. Such as:

 

Best Looking Cacher

Funniest Cacher

Cacher Most Likely to Succeed

 

and so on and so on.

 

Future and past finders could generate their own lists and leave them in the cache as a "trade" item. Maybe a competition would develop on the creativity of the lists left behind. It would be a fun way to "get" other area cachers by what position they are on your list.

I love it.

[sdarken]

I'm with The NVG on this one. I'd be working on a couple of my own lists to leave behind rather than spending time stewing over the existing list.

 

Adding some additional lists would dilute the cache-owners point since subsequent finders will have several things to read. In addition, if the new lists put the cache owner in a less-than-favorable position on the list, he/she may understand why someone people would take offense to original list.

 

If you have the skills / interest, try the GSAK macro that ranks caches based on log-length. More interesting caches tend to have longer average log lengths. If you were to rank all of the nearby caches using this macro (and the hider's caches came out near the bottom) that might make an interesting list.

 

Quite often (but I wouldn't say always) people with the kind of agenda suggested by this cache will be the kind of people that favor quantity over quality.

 

Of course you'll want to be careful to not offend anyone else with your additional lists.

[+Shawn&Holly]

Cool, currently at 1.8% and falling, guess we're takers

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I realize all of this is in my profile, BUT

 

I followed some suggestions here and found almost 100 finds before I hid my first cache.

 

I plan on hiding about that same ratio on out.

 

 

That's a good approach as far as I am concerned. I prefer quality over quantity, especially in terms of placing my own caches.

 

If I lived in the area with that cache I'd be tempted to place a cache with a "Caches that Suck" list and only include that cache on it.

[+UncleJimbo]

There is a fairly new cache in the Central Oregon area that has some interesting contents. The listing tells you not to trade anything, and when you get to the cache, you should read what's inside and you will understand. I have attached a snapshot of what's inside and included here.

 

My question is this.....not do we all enjoy new caches.....the obvious answer there is of course!!!!

 

But do we make a list....with peoples names on it.....place it in the cache container and say these people are good and contributing and these people are bad or "takers" and not contributing? I think that's a little extreme.

 

We have a cacher in our area that had a better idea in the same spirit. He placed a cache called Spawn or something like that. Inside his container he had many pre-put together and ready to go containers, to help encourage new caches. This was very successful.

 

The cache with a list of names seems to me to be a bit inappropriate. The sport of geocaching means many things to many different people and people contribute in many ways.

 

I am a cacher with almost 3000 finds and I have 70 hides. That % works out to be far less than one %, hides to finds ratio. I do my best to share my small amount of knowledge with new cachers, talk it up with interested folks, plan events and cache excursions. Does this mean I'm a "taker" and not doing my fair share? Do we actually need to look at fellow cachers and measure their contribution status and then publish that?

 

I'm curious what your take on this is?

 

Sorry the picture is hard to read....but if you save it you can make it bigger and read it.

 

Very inappropriate and in bad taste, in my opinion.

 

I would "remove the trash" from that cache, as others have suggested. I would also avoid this person's caches in the future.

[+UncleJimbo]

I realize all of this is in my profile, BUT

 

I followed some suggestions here and found almost 100 finds before I hid my first cache.

 

I plan on hiding about that same ratio on out.

 

 

That's a good approach as far as I am concerned. I prefer quality over quantity, especially in terms of placing my own caches.

 

If I lived in the area with that cache I'd be tempted to place a cache with a "Caches that Suck" list and only include that cache on it.

Nice!

Really, where's the fun in finding a cache that does not allow trading and then disses you on a list?

[+Driver Carries Cache]

That's obnoxious.

 

So the owner would rather people not motivated to place hides be forced (or shamed) into making hides. That should provide some incredibly poor hides.

 

DCC

[+BlueDeuce]

Personally I think this cache itself adds nothing to advancing the game of geocaching, in fact it takes away from the spirit of the community.

 

Please pass that along to the owner. Thanks.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

To answer your question in the Title, I think that is very inappropriate. There are many reasons why people don't hide caches, but they give back to the community in other ways.

 

If I were heading up that way, that cache would be on my Ignore list . . .

When I head up that way it will be on my MUGGLE THIS CACHE LIST.

 

on second thought, maybe trading that list for a printed copy of this forum thread would be a more constructive act.

Edited January 25, 2008 by WRITE SHOP ROBERT

[+OHail]

on second thought, maybe trading that list for a printed copy of this forum thread would be a more constructive act.

That sounds like the better idea.

 

Personally, I'd be high on his list. I've found over 500 but placed only two. I do have caches ready to place but I'm looking for the right place. I don't want to place a cache just because I can. I also agree with the other posts about quality over quantity, maintenance I have performed on other people's caches and the number of other people I have made aware of geocaching.

 

I don't have anything against placing a park and grab but I want it to take the cacher to some place interesting. Also, I am looking at placing caches in counties that have only one or two caches for the whole area. This will be helpful to those who are trying to complete the 67-County or DeLorme challenges.

 

Just my two cents worth.

Edited January 25, 2008 by OHail

[jholly]

Placing caches is not the only measure. How about travelers? Many like moving travelers and some like releasing travelers. That is contributing. With over 500,000 (and most probably in NA) we all don't have to spew caches left and right and keep the sport going.

 

Jim

[Rostropovich]

In my opinion placing many low quality caches contributes much less to the game than one or two well placed and well maintained caches. This cache owner really can not know if the cachers are contributing. It is

in poor taste because cachers should not feel obliged to place caches but rather excited to participate in the community in a different way. Higher quality caches are also more likely to be placed by those who have seen many clever and not so clever hides. I only plan on hiding several caches that will add much more to the game than if I hid one hundred caches of low quality. If i found this cache I would likely remove the cache and post a "Needs to Be Archived" log.

Edited January 25, 2008 by Rostropovich