Garmin Colorado / NIMH Battery Problem

[yogazoo]

Well, with all of the Garmin threads with multiple pages I thought I would post a new thread about this rather serious problem (For me. All I use is NIMH). I have timed my unit with the backlight on full and it only lasts about 1.5-2hrs before my unit tells me my batteries are dead! I DO HAVE THE NIMH SELECTED IN THE SETTINGS! Here's the gipper, I take the batteries that the Colorado told me where dead and place them in my 60CSX and VWALLA! FULL POWER! That tells me that the voltage detector simply doesn't change when you select different battery types OR, the new Colorado line doesn't work well with NIMH rechargeables! Could be a deal breaker.

 

Is anyone else experiencing this potentially fatal flaw or do I have a bum unit?

[+StarBrand]

It ran for 2 full hours with backlight on!!! wow. I don't think any of my units would last even 1 to 1.5 with the backlight on.

[yogazoo]

Regardles of the time it ran, it would tell me the batteries were dead when they weren't. I have tried this test three times now with different charged 2500mah rechargable batteries. The Colorado GPS firmware version is 2.50.

 

The point here is that the voltage detector doesn't seem to realize that it is supposed to be reading a NIMH (1.2v fresh). It reads that the volts reach 1.1v and decides the supposed 1.5 (alkaline) are dead. Suts down the backlight and a few minutes later the whole unit.

 

I have a 60CSX that gets 4.5 hours minimum with the backlight on high (2500mah NIMH). This is reasonable. 1.5? I think is rather lacking.

[+big rick]

My 60 CSX full backlight runs 6 hours + with 2 Duracell 2650 mah batteries when fully charged. I use a La Crosse BC-900 charger and charge overnight at 500 mah. I no longer use a power cord in the car and have a 12v Maha 401 charger that I use in the car and just swap out batteries as needed. I get about 5 hours out of the same batteries fast charged in the car with full backlight.

[+g-o-cashers]

Regardles of the time it ran, it would tell me the batteries were dead when they weren't. I have tried this test three times now with different charged 2500mah rechargable batteries. The Colorado GPS firmware version is 2.50.

 

The point here is that the voltage detector doesn't seem to realize that it is supposed to be reading a NIMH (1.2v fresh). It reads that the volts reach 1.1v and decides the supposed 1.5 (alkaline) are dead. Suts down the backlight and a few minutes later the whole unit.

 

I have a 60CSX that gets 4.5 hours minimum with the backlight on high (2500mah NIMH). This is reasonable. 1.5? I think is rather lacking.

 

I had a pair of 2500maH NiMH batteries in all day yesterday w/o much backlight usage, I probably used them for 6-7 hours of continuous operation and I noticed it was down one bar on the battery meter (I did change to NiMH). I'll keep an eye on it.

 

GO$Rs

[yogazoo]

My 60 CSX full backlight runs 6 hours + with 2 Duracell 2650 mah batteries when fully charged. I use a La Crosse BC-900 charger and charge overnight at 500 mah. I no longer use a power cord in the car and have a 12v Maha 401 charger that I use in the car and just swap out batteries as needed. I get about 5 hours out of the same batteries fast charged in the car with full backlight.

 

Thanks for that info Big Rick! I knew that 1.5 hrs in the Colorado was lousy. Now the question, is it the firmware or is the Colorado backlight a power hog? Maybe someone with a little more technical expertise could measure the power draw!?!

 

Look, I'm not looking to burn the backlight on high all the time but man, a 2 hour drive, at night shouldn't be a problem. What about night caches? How often do you go out on a night cache for less than 1.5 hours?

 

PS: Just a note, the Battery monitor thing just seems a little unstable. One minute it shows full power, the next two bars, the next full again (with both alkaline and NIMH). Can anyone also experiencing this give me a shout?

[yogazoo]

It ran for 2 full hours with backlight on!!! wow. I don't think any of my units would last even 1 to 1.5 with the backlight on.

 

StarBrand what GPS are you using? Magellan 315? 1hr with the backlight on is just plain rediculous.

[Smac999]

it seems the firmware for the vista HCX has the same problems. leave the battery setting to alkline and it'll probably work fine.

[+apersson850]

The GPS firmware (2.50) has nothing to do with this. It's in the system firmware, which perhaps is 2.10?

 

I haven't seen any such fault in mine. Perhaps some calibration value in non-volatile memory that got skewed?

[yogazoo]

Confirmed again today. NIMH's that are pronounced dead by the Garmin colorado are read as completely full in my 60CSX.

[+apersson850]

I'll have to run some batteries down on my Colorado as well.

[yogazoo]

Thanks Apersson for volunteering to confirm the batt problem. If you turn the backlight on high they should be dead within 1.5 hrs. Then pop them in a 60CSX and... amazing, they're fresh!

 

I'm using 2500mah batteries fresh off the charger. My unit is the 300 model.

[+apersson850]

Maybe Garmin has hidden a battery charger inside the 60 CSx??

[yogazoo]

After some tests I have run on various sets of batteries I have come to some conclusions on this problem.

 

1) NIMH performance on the COLORADO 300 is very poor (2500mah freshly charged)

I get a little more than an hour with the backlight on high, the battery meter jumps around, and when the unit tells me the battery's are dead there is still 2.54 volts left on the two batteries. This is in no way a dead condition for NIMH Batteries.

 

2) Alkaline Batteries work much better giving me about 6 hours of Backlight on high, about what a 60CSX gets.

 

Now you try. Place a relativley fresh set of alkalines in the unit and change the settings from Alkaline to Lithium to NIMH. Watch how the unit responds to the different settings. When you change to Lithium it beeps immediately and shuts down the backlight and only shows one red bar. Now I know there is ample voltage to run the unit, after all they are fresh Alkalines. it seems as though the unit responds to what it is SUPPOSED to be reading from the batteries and not what it needs to operate. This is why I feel that the potential for NIMH's to run in this unit is there, its just not set correctly in the firmware.

 

Summary: Its unfortunate to see the lousy NIMH performance in the Colorado. Burning through disposable Alkalines is bad for the environment and bad for my wallet. The guiltless "free" energy from rechargables is really the way to go. I feel that this problem can be solved with a firmware update. Being an electronics tech and having limited experience with kind of thing, the tests apear to be pointing to a flaw in the voltage detection settings with the NIMH battery setting. 1.2v is a far cray from being dead for a NIMH. This also explains why when I pop the "dead" NIMH's into the 60CSX they read FULL.

[+CelticDave]

I have noticed that the backlight stops working or severly dims when alkaline batteries get to about 50% on the 400t battery meter. It looks like this is a similar problem as I have checked batteries. These are the Duracell with powercheck. The first two times this happened with the same batteries they still showed fully charged. The last time they were dead after not very much time with the backlight running. This would appear to be a pretty major problem. Unfortunately one of many I have encountered.

 

When I called Garmin yesterday and spoke to customer service guy "Jeremy" He told me that they were not taking any information from customers regarding possible bugs because they have "beta testers" to report problems to the engineers. I hope this was the exception and not the rule for dealing with issues with the Colorado as I would hope that the "beta testers" would have already reported many of the problems that we are experiencing with the new release of the unit. Sorry for the rant but I am getting more frustrated every day. I really do like what does work so far lol. The cache description in the GPS is awesome.

[+apersson850]

As a "beta tester" I report everything I notice, of course. But this has not been any problem I've seen.

 

Do you have the backlight at full throttle all the time?

 

The backlight is supposed to dim/turn off, when power is low. So it's correct in principle, but the question is of course when to detect the "low" state.

Edited January 23, 2008 by apersson850

[yogazoo]

Last night I took my Colorado for a walk (with my dog). I had just installed fresh batteries (NIMH 2500mah) and turned the backlight on since it was dark outside. I walked for an hour before the backlight turned itself off. OK, I get it, it a nice power saving feature, but 15 minutes later the whole unit shut down. I just can't get over the SHORT SHORT life of the rechargable batteries in this unit. I can't even go for a walk with the backlight on without bringing spares. Kind of a downer to say the least.

 

I have noticed that the shutdown voltage in the unit firmare seems to be 2.6v (measuring the batteries with a voltmeter after shutdown) and thats for both batteries regardless of type (alkaline or NIMH). Once again if you take those "dead" batteries out and place them in a vista or 60CSX it operates fine and says that the batteries are full. I have no doubt that this is a firmware issue and can be solved. Until then, I'll have to put my Colorado on the shelf and wait for the update.

[+Marky]

Until then, I'll have to put my Colorado on the shelf and wait for the update.

Or you could just buy some cheap AAs at Costco for now as a stop gap measure.

 

--Marky

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I've had mine running for two hours with the backlight on full and also used it for at least an hour earlier today (with the backlight on full). The battery meter is on half right now.

 

Colorado 400t

2500mAh NiMH

[+Prime Suspect]

Last night I took my Colorado for a walk (with my dog). I had just installed fresh batteries (NIMH 2500mah) and turned the backlight on since it was dark outside. I walked for an hour before the backlight turned itself off. OK, I get it, it a nice power saving feature, but 15 minutes later the whole unit shut down. I just can't get over the SHORT SHORT life of the rechargable batteries in this unit. I can't even go for a walk with the backlight on without bringing spares. Kind of a downer to say the least.

 

I have noticed that the shutdown voltage in the unit firmare seems to be 2.6v (measuring the batteries with a voltmeter after shutdown) and thats for both batteries regardless of type (alkaline or NIMH). Once again if you take those "dead" batteries out and place them in a vista or 60CSX it operates fine and says that the batteries are full. I have no doubt that this is a firmware issue and can be solved. Until then, I'll have to put my Colorado on the shelf and wait for the update.

Any chance these are new batteries? NiMH batteries require 10-15 discharge/recharge cycles before they reach maximum capacity.

[+4America]

Last night I took my Colorado for a walk (with my dog). I had just installed fresh batteries (NIMH 2500mah) and turned the backlight on since it was dark outside. I walked for an hour before the backlight turned itself off. OK, I get it, it a nice power saving feature, but 15 minutes later the whole unit shut down. I just can't get over the SHORT SHORT life of the rechargable batteries in this unit. I can't even go for a walk with the backlight on without bringing spares. Kind of a downer to say the least.

 

I have noticed that the shutdown voltage in the unit firmare seems to be 2.6v (measuring the batteries with a voltmeter after shutdown) and thats for both batteries regardless of type (alkaline or NIMH). Once again if you take those "dead" batteries out and place them in a vista or 60CSX it operates fine and says that the batteries are full. I have no doubt that this is a firmware issue and can be solved. Until then, I'll have to put my Colorado on the shelf and wait for the update.

Any chance these are new batteries? NiMH batteries require 10-15 discharge/recharge cycles before they reach maximum capacity.

 

I just posted a update of the new update to the 300 /400. Battery issues re listed as fixed. Search for the firmware topic...

[+CelticDave]

As a "beta tester" I report everything I notice, of course. But this has not been any problem I've seen.

 

Do you have the backlight at full throttle all the time?

 

The backlight is supposed to dim/turn off, when power is low. So it's correct in principle, but the question is of course when to detect the "low" state.

My only experience is with the 60cs where the backlight was not a problem and lasted quite a while. As far as how long I run the backlight at full power, I have not had the opportunity to run it for very long because it dims after a fairly short period of time. 15 to 20 minutes at the most. I think the combination of the battery problem along with a problem of the backlight dimming when there is plenty of battery life create what we are experiencing with shortened battery life as far as the unit is concerned. I am not an expert in usb charging but I have a usb power supply that is 5v. Is that what I need for the Colorado?

[yogazoo]

Last night I took my Colorado for a walk (with my dog). I had just installed fresh batteries (NIMH 2500mah) and turned the backlight on since it was dark outside. I walked for an hour before the backlight turned itself off. OK, I get it, it a nice power saving feature, but 15 minutes later the whole unit shut down. I just can't get over the SHORT SHORT life of the rechargable batteries in this unit. I can't even go for a walk with the backlight on without bringing spares. Kind of a downer to say the least.

 

I have noticed that the shutdown voltage in the unit firmare seems to be 2.6v (measuring the batteries with a voltmeter after shutdown) and thats for both batteries regardless of type (alkaline or NIMH). Once again if you take those "dead" batteries out and place them in a vista or 60CSX it operates fine and says that the batteries are full. I have no doubt that this is a firmware issue and can be solved. Until then, I'll have to put my Colorado on the shelf and wait for the update.

Any chance these are new batteries? NiMH batteries require 10-15 discharge/recharge cycles before they reach maximum capacity.

 

No, no, no, there is no problem with the batteries. They have been well broken in and are used frequently. Regardless, when I put them into a 60CSX the unit reads them as FULL and operates for hours and hours with the backlight on high. It's definately a problem with the threshold level of the shutoff voltage in the firmware.

[+CelticDave]

Has anyone heard when we can expect to see the first firmware update? I really hope that Garmin does not wait to do everything in one update months from now. It would be nice to see something from Garmin as to what to expect for those of us that have made the leap, twice in my case as my wife and I both have one.

[+4America]

Has anyone heard when we can expect to see the first firmware update? I really hope that Garmin does not wait to do everything in one update months from now. It would be nice to see something from Garmin as to what to expect for those of us that have made the leap, twice in my case as my wife and I both have one.

 

look 3 messages up (or so) from this one

 

they posted a new version today.

[+geochicken]

I only see the update listed for the Colorado 300 on the Garmin site.

[yogazoo]

Anyone can check the voltage of their batteries. All you have to do is access the "secret" startup mode by holding in the center botton on the wheel while turning the unit on (keep it pressed in until you see the secret screen). Vbat will be what you want to check.

[+4America]

I only see the update listed for the Colorado 300 on the Garmin site.

 

400t update

[+CelticDave]

Has anyone heard when we can expect to see the first firmware update? I really hope that Garmin does not wait to do everything in one update months from now. It would be nice to see something from Garmin as to what to expect for those of us that have made the leap, twice in my case as my wife and I both have one.

Ask and you shall receive, Thanks Garmin, lets see how things work now.

[yogazoo]

NIMH batteries are still dead a little after one hour. Oh well, maybe next time in update 2.4.

 

NIMH battery life is still my bigest issue, not the only one by a longshot, but its the deal-breaker if they can't fix it.

[+RRLover]

NIMH batteries are still dead a little after one hour. Oh well, maybe next time in update 2.4.

 

NIMH battery life is still my bigest issue, not the only one by a longshot, but its the deal-breaker if they can't fix it.

Trying not to suppose, but if you're using a rapid charger, try using a 12 hr. charger, fairly cheap at Radio

Shack.

The rapid chargers stuff the energy into the batteries at a rather high mah. rate. The beauty of these

newer style batteries is their higher internal resistance, but it's a double edged sword. Higher resistance

means more heat, more heat makes for a rising resistance rate. These 'quick' chargers rely on a sensor

that triggers the trickle mode either when a certain temp., or resistance level is reached, resulting in an

incomplete charge. If full capacity, and or battery life are important to you don't fry your batteries. I

realize that the newer chemistries are supposed to be immune to the "memory effect" but I suspect that

that really means "reduced memory effect".

In a previous hobby (R/C cars) NiCads were the battery of choice, low internal resistance. High current

flow in both directions. We'd get out of 'em what we put in, fast, high current rate (water cooling) in =

fast, high current rate out of em. and vice versa when more endurance was needed, ie. slow in, and

somewhat slower out.

YMMV

 

Norm

Edited January 25, 2008 by RRLover

[+Marky]

I put in fresh Hybrid Sanyo Eneloop 2000mAh, backlight on full. Ran a Wherigo cart, lots of scrolling around, lots of different screens. Basically 3 1/2 hours of show and tell, off and on between eating pizza. The backlight was on the whole time. After 3 1/2 hours, the battery meter was still full bars.

 

I'm on:

Software Version 2.30

GPS Software Version 2.60

 

Seems like decent performance to me.

 

--Marky

[Hertzog]

I put in fresh Hybrid Sanyo Eneloop 2000mAh, backlight on full. Ran a Wherigo cart, lots of scrolling around, lots of different screens. Basically 3 1/2 hours of show and tell, off and on between eating pizza. The backlight was on the whole time. After 3 1/2 hours, the battery meter was still full bars.

 

I'm on:

Software Version 2.30

GPS Software Version 2.60

 

Seems like decent performance to me.

 

--Marky

Any chance your battery type was set to Alkaline instead of NiMH?

[yogazoo]

Nope, setting was on NIMH. Something's up here and its with the units. There are such varying reports of poor battery life/good battery life, it seems as though everyone's running different firmware. I updated mine and got resonable performance, for one trial. Popped other fresh ones in and got lousy performance. The battery meter is crap and jumps around alot. I just wish they'd fix it for good, its my biggest concern.

[yogazoo]

NIMH batteries are still dead a little after one hour. Oh well, maybe next time in update 2.4.

 

NIMH battery life is still my bigest issue, not the only one by a longshot, but its the deal-breaker if they can't fix it.

Trying not to suppose, but if you're using a rapid charger, try using a 12 hr. charger, fairly cheap at Radio

Shack.

The rapid chargers stuff the energy into the batteries at a rather high mah. rate. The beauty of these

newer style batteries is their higher internal resistance, but it's a double edged sword. Higher resistance

means more heat, more heat makes for a rising resistance rate. These 'quick' chargers rely on a sensor

that triggers the trickle mode either when a certain temp., or resistance level is reached, resulting in an

incomplete charge. If full capacity, and or battery life are important to you don't fry your batteries. I

realize that the newer chemistries are supposed to be immune to the "memory effect" but I suspect that

that really means "reduced memory effect".

In a previous hobby (R/C cars) NiCads were the battery of choice, low internal resistance. High current

flow in both directions. We'd get out of 'em what we put in, fast, high current rate (water cooling) in =

fast, high current rate out of em. and vice versa when more endurance was needed, ie. slow in, and

somewhat slower out.

YMMV

 

Norm

 

Norm, thanks for the info on the batteries. It just seems wierd that I've been using GPS's with NIMH batteries for years now and never had a problem before. Maybe I need to re-evaluate the batteries I'm using but like I said, its never been a problem before.

[+LifeOnEdge!]

yogazoo, you are really jumping the gun on this issue.

 

yes, there is a problem, but this isn't a "deal breaker."

 

I haven't read all the responses, and will be going back to read everything, but I wan't to comment based on several comments that I have seen and recent observations of the Colorado 400t that I own. Here goes:

 

Like you, after my 400t claims that the batteries are low enough to stop backlighting, I placed my Duracell NiMH 2500 mAh rechargeables into my GPSmap 60 CSx. I turned on that unit, set the light to maximum and turned on the compass. The battery indicator gives me 3 of 4 bars. Yes, the 400t is set for NiMH batteries.

 

Some background: I bought my unit two nights ago. I installed NiMHs that I were relatively charged and in my 60 CSx into this new unit, got 4 bars as I remember (I was excited to have the unit in my hands and may not have known enough to know what the battery level was at the time.) I turned the unit off (I believe), returned it to the box, and continued shopping. I then paid for the unit, went to dinner nearby, and played with the GPS before and after I ate. The unit is still running. Returning to the store where I made my purchase and picking up something I had forgotten previously, then going outside, I noticed the unit had shut itself off. I tried several different sets of NiMHs that I had on hand (none of the new, pre-charged variety AND none freshly charged) I found that several sets would not power the unit up. One final set of batteries were tried and worked well enough to mark a waypoint for a cache I was wanting to place.

 

Once home, I rechecked the battery setting. It was properly set on NiMH. I placed one set of 2650 mAh batteries in the charger and placed these in the unit. I do not use a fast charger and have never seen the need. These can't be good on the batteries and I never seem to need a fast charge, usually having a freshly charged pair at hand.

 

Yesterday, while playing with the unit, I noticed with normal use, about a 6 - 8 hour cycle before the new unit shut off backlighting due to a low battery condition.

 

I didn't notice until today that the battery level indicator on my 60 CSx was showing 3 of 4 bars with the newly discharged batteries.

_____________________________________________

 

Obviously, the voltage setting for a low battery condition on the Colorado units have been set incorrectly for NiMH batteries. These batteries have a rather flat performance curve and maintain a fairly level potential until they are about run out. This is how the higher and higher capacities are achieved. Its similar to how ice melts, staying in solid form until it reaches 32 degrees and then quickly changing from a solid to a liquid. Many of you may not know that ice does this or understand what I am attempting to describe.

 

There was a claim that the unit itself is using too much power from the batteries. This is clearly not the case since the batteries have not actually lost considerable potential (i.e. the 60 CSx units still showing 3 of 4 bars on their battery indicators.) yogazoo actually claims that his/her batteries are "still fresh." This is an exageration. Obviously the batteries aren't fresh, having run the Colorado unit with full backlight for nearly 2 hours. But these batteries have not lost enough energy to show much drain when we place these batteries into our GPSmap 60 units.

 

This is a relatively easy fix. The levels need to be redifined and the software adjusted to reflect this. At that point, these units should perform quite well.

 

The next comment may be taken as being brash. So be it!

 

I suggest those having these "deal breaker" issues, simply return the units to where they purchased them and stay with you tried and true GPSmap 60s. Your blood pressures will be better and you'll love your new, old unit. Face it, the 60s are awesome units that have very few negative aspects to their performance. I honestly feel that those seeing these issues as "deal breakers" have too high of expectations and patience. Do I like the fact that I'll have to carry around extra batteries?

 

Actually, this is a PERFECT reason to buy the new pre-charged NiMHs that I've considered buying as well as breaking out the old style 2650 mAh Duracells that just got on the cheap!

 

Regardless of what you do, I hope that you contact Garmin on Monday and ask them 1) what they feel is going on, and 2) how long they might expect before this issue is resolved.

 

LifeOnEdge!

*Still loving my 400t and taking it out caching in the morning*

[+LifeOnEdge!]

Nope, setting was on NIMH. Something's up here and its with the units. There are such varying reports of poor battery life/good battery life, it seems as though everyone's running different firmware. I updated mine and got resonable performance, for one trial. Popped other fresh ones in and got lousy performance. The battery meter is crap and jumps around alot. I just wish they'd fix it for good, its my biggest concern.

 

yogazoo, is there any way we could get you to use the quote feature when you are replying to a direct question? <smile>

 

I believe you answered a question that was not directed to you here. The previous post was questioning the person who had used his Colorado for 3 1/2 hours with full backlighting and was still showing 4 bars on the batteries. It would make sense, if HIS unit was set to Alkaline batteries, that they might still be showing 4 bars.

 

This implies a resonable, but temporary solution here.

 

I plan on changing my battery settings to Alkaline and seeing how the performance appears to change.

[+LifeOnEdge!]

After some tests I have run on various sets of batteries I have come to some conclusions on this problem.

 

1) NIMH performance on the COLORADO 300 is very poor (2500mah freshly charged)

I get a little more than an hour with the backlight on high, the battery meter jumps around, and when the unit tells me the battery's are dead there is still 2.54 volts left on the two batteries. This is in no way a dead condition for NIMH Batteries.

 

2) Alkaline Batteries work much better giving me about 6 hours of Backlight on high, about what a 60CSX gets.

 

Now you try. Place a relativley fresh set of alkalines in the unit and change the settings from Alkaline to Lithium to NIMH. Watch how the unit responds to the different settings. When you change to Lithium it beeps immediately and shuts down the backlight and only shows one red bar. Now I know there is ample voltage to run the unit, after all they are fresh Alkalines. it seems as though the unit responds to what it is SUPPOSED to be reading from the batteries and not what it needs to operate. This is why I feel that the potential for NIMH's to run in this unit is there, its just not set correctly in the firmware.

 

Summary: Its unfortunate to see the lousy NIMH performance in the Colorado. Burning through disposable Alkalines is bad for the environment and bad for my wallet. The guiltless "free" energy from rechargables is really the way to go. I feel that this problem can be solved with a firmware update. Being an electronics tech and having limited experience with kind of thing, the tests apear to be pointing to a flaw in the voltage detection settings with the NIMH battery setting. 1.2v is a far cray from being dead for a NIMH. This also explains why when I pop the "dead" NIMH's into the 60CSX they read FULL.

 

yogazoo, I guess I should have read all of your posts, but that really changes none of my replies.

 

The issue you just described is NOT an issue at all. It has to do with the performance of the different battery types and not your GPS unit.

 

What is a battery? Its a power storage device that supplied POTENTIAL to a unit. Potential is a level of energy that the battery is ready to impart to its device, otherwise known as voltage.

 

How does voltage change as a battery is used? In any battery, before batteries are applied to a device, they contain a maximum potential. As the device is used, this potential drops. (This is all basic stuff so far, and easy to understand.) Now, as the device runs, the supplied voltage of the battery drops, as stated before, but its how the voltage drops that determines what batteries a unit uses and how long those particular batteries allow the device to run. If the voltage drops slowly (like walking down a very level sidewalk) the device runs for a long time (it takes several steps to notice that your elevation has changed.) If the voltage drops faster, the time a device can run within a given voltage range (operating voltage) is considerably less.

 

How does the battery indicator work? Depending on the type of batteries used, the battery indicator on a device shows different amounts of charge. One bar, two bars, three bars, four bars, etc. Unlike the fuel gage on your car, these bars mean different things. Again, depending on the type of batteries used, the performance curve of these batteries differ. Some supply a broader range of voltage (potential) and need a wider range to operate the device. Some, like NiMH batteries, supply a flatter range of voltage and will be closer to "dead" with less of a drop in voltage. To continue the car analogy, this *car* can run longer on a more empty tank of gas. Its like this gas (type of battery) gives this car twice the mileage on one gallon of gas. Here, the NiMH batteries run longer, longer, longer at nearly the same voltage, then as it is almost out of energy, the voltage drops very fast and outside of the devices opperating level.

 

As I was reading these posts, I was thinking that we were completely backwards, thinking that we could set the battery type to Alkaline and trick the unit into opperating longer. This may or may not be the case, but initally, changing the setting to alkaline will make the unit think that there is less energy left in that battery. As it runs, however, it may take considerably longer to use up the second and third bars, AND IN EFFECT allowing the unit to work longer. Try this, as will I, and tell me how it works. It may be a solution.

Edited January 26, 2008 by LifeOnEdge!

[+LifeOnEdge!]

I put in fresh Hybrid Sanyo Eneloop 2000mAh, backlight on full. Ran a Wherigo cart, lots of scrolling around, lots of different screens. Basically 3 1/2 hours of show and tell, off and on between eating pizza. The backlight was on the whole time. After 3 1/2 hours, the battery meter was still full bars.

 

I'm on:

Software Version 2.30

GPS Software Version 2.60

 

Seems like decent performance to me.

 

--Marky

 

Marky,

 

You told us your software versions, but you didn't say what device you are using. What GPS are you talking about here? If its the 400t, which I own, your Software version of 2.3 is newer than what I am running, but when I check, Garmin tells me there is no updated software for me.

 

I have the Colorado 400t with the following:

 

Software Version 2.20

GPS Software Version 2.60.

 

This may be why I am still seeing a problem with my battery levels.

 

LifeOnEdge!

[yogazoo]

After some tests I have run on various sets of batteries I have come to some conclusions on this problem.

 

1) NIMH performance on the COLORADO 300 is very poor (2500mah freshly charged)

I get a little more than an hour with the backlight on high, the battery meter jumps around, and when the unit tells me the battery's are dead there is still 2.54 volts left on the two batteries. This is in no way a dead condition for NIMH Batteries.

 

2) Alkaline Batteries work much better giving me about 6 hours of Backlight on high, about what a 60CSX gets.

 

Now you try. Place a relativley fresh set of alkalines in the unit and change the settings from Alkaline to Lithium to NIMH. Watch how the unit responds to the different settings. When you change to Lithium it beeps immediately and shuts down the backlight and only shows one red bar. Now I know there is ample voltage to run the unit, after all they are fresh Alkalines. it seems as though the unit responds to what it is SUPPOSED to be reading from the batteries and not what it needs to operate. This is why I feel that the potential for NIMH's to run in this unit is there, its just not set correctly in the firmware.

 

Summary: Its unfortunate to see the lousy NIMH performance in the Colorado. Burning through disposable Alkalines is bad for the environment and bad for my wallet. The guiltless "free" energy from rechargables is really the way to go. I feel that this problem can be solved with a firmware update. Being an electronics tech and having limited experience with kind of thing, the tests apear to be pointing to a flaw in the voltage detection settings with the NIMH battery setting. 1.2v is a far cray from being dead for a NIMH. This also explains why when I pop the "dead" NIMH's into the 60CSX they read FULL.

 

yogazoo, I guess I should have read all of your posts, but that really changes none of my replies.

 

The issue you just described is NOT an issue at all. It has to do with the performance of the different battery types and not your GPS unit.

 

What is a battery? Its a power storage device that supplied POTENTIAL to a unit. Potential is a level of energy that the battery is ready to impart to its device, otherwise known as voltage.

 

How does voltage change as a battery is used? In any battery, before batteries are applied to a device, they contain a maximum potential. As the device is used, this potential drops. (This is all basic stuff so far, and easy to understand.) Now, as the device runs, the supplied voltage of the battery drops, as stated before, but its how the voltage drops that determines what batteries a unit uses and how long those particular batteries allow the device to run. If the voltage drops slowly (like walking down a very level sidewalk) the device runs for a long time (it takes several steps to notice that your elevation has changed.) If the voltage drops faster, the time a device can run within a given voltage range (operating voltage) is considerably less.

 

How does the battery indicator work? Depending on the type of batteries used, the battery indicator on a device shows different amounts of charge. One bar, two bars, three bars, four bars, etc. Unlike the fuel gage on your car, these bars mean different things. Again, depending on the type of batteries used, the performance curve of these batteries differ. Some supply a broader range of voltage (potential) and need a wider range to operate the device. Some, like NiMH batteries, supply a flatter range of voltage and will be closer to "dead" with less of a drop in voltage. To continue the car analogy, this *car* can run longer on a more empty tank of gas. Its like this gas (type of battery) gives this car twice the mileage on one gallon of gas. Here, the NiMH batteries run longer, longer, longer at nearly the same voltage, then as it is almost out of energy, the voltage drops very fast and outside of the devices opperating level.

 

As I was reading these posts, I was thinking that we were completely backwards, thinking that we could set the battery type to Alkaline and trick the unit into opperating longer. This may or may not be the case, but initally, changing the setting to alkaline will make the unit think that there is less energy left in that battery. As it runs, however, it may take considerably longer to use up the second and third bars, AND IN EFFECT allowing the unit to work longer. Try this, as will I, and tell me how it works. It may be a solution.

 

Thanks LifeOnEdge! I will try this alkaline trick to see if there is any difference in the stability of the Battery meter.

 

I feel you haven't read my previous posts closely enough. I understand the difference in voltage and discharge between the battery types and know why the firmware should read them differently. The issue IS (as many others have commented on) that the firmware is not reading the discharge curves correctly. Therefore giving us false readings on the available power. Since the unit is tied to what voltages the firmware identifies as low and not the physical requirements of the electronics, we have premature dimmings of backlights and premature shutdowns.

 

Firmware v2.3 seemed to resolve most of the the premature shutdown problems. However, regardless of the results I think we are all in agreement that Garmin could and should rewrite the firmware values of the battery meter itself to better match the actual discharge curve. That way we won't be seeing one red bar for 5 hours and we will have a better idea of just when to replace our batteries.

[Hertzog]

I believe you answered a question that was not directed to you here. The previous post was questioning the person who had used his Colorado for 3 1/2 hours with full backlighting and was still showing 4 bars on the batteries. It would make sense, if HIS unit was set to Alkaline batteries, that they might still be showing 4 bars.

That was my point yogazoo had already told us what his settings were; I was curious about Marky's settings, since he reported no problems.

 

Seems to me that the Colorado's NiMH setting has a bug (hopefully firmware) with respect to the shutdown voltage. In the past, the main difference I saw between the Alkaline and NiMH settings (Vista, 60CS, 60CSx) was the number of bars you got with fresh batteries; with the Alkaline setting fresh NiMHs would show only 3 out of 4 bars. What I just noticed is that with the eneloops I get 4 bars in the Alkaline setting (60CSx), so it may be that the new hybrids have a slightly higher "fresh" voltage than the earlier NiMHs, and the Alkaline setting may actually be more appropriiate for them.

[yogazoo]

Allow me to elaborate on the "Deal Breaker" mindset of the battery problems for those interested.

 

I hire field techs to survey remote locations of Montana and collect data. We use GPS's almost every day of the year, all day long. When my Colorado was shutting off after an hour of use with NIMH's. I was a bit concerned. I was told to try Alkalines.

 

When I calculated the cost for 10 new alkalines every day, for lets say 200 days per year, thats alot of money completely wasted. For me and my crew, rechargeable batteries are the only real and sensible option. If these units were not going to function well on NIMH's they would be of no use to us at all. Therefore it would have been a "deal breaker".

 

I bought my unit to test before ordering a bunch of them for the field crew. Some found the "deal breaker" statement "brash" but is it not really when you consider the above?

 

It appears now that Garmin has, at least partially, addressed the issue. And I am still considering the upgrade for the entire field crew.

 

The Wherigo function is the biggest upgrade feature I'm interested in for my crew. You see, we can create dichotomous keys to identify plants, insects, fish, amphibians and just about everything else we survey for with pictures and a "If you see this, then press that" method for narrowing down to species. But without a decent runtime with NIMH's that would have been useless.

 

When we create a few modules for identifying plants and animals we will post them for folks in Montana!

Edited January 26, 2008 by yogazoo

[+Marky]

I put in fresh Hybrid Sanyo Eneloop 2000mAh, backlight on full. Ran a Wherigo cart, lots of scrolling around, lots of different screens. Basically 3 1/2 hours of show and tell, off and on between eating pizza. The backlight was on the whole time. After 3 1/2 hours, the battery meter was still full bars.

 

I'm on:

Software Version 2.30

GPS Software Version 2.60

 

Seems like decent performance to me.

 

--Marky

Any chance your battery type was set to Alkaline instead of NiMH?

That would tend to give poorer performace, not better, but anyway, mine is set to NiMH.

[+Marky]

I put in fresh Hybrid Sanyo Eneloop 2000mAh, backlight on full. Ran a Wherigo cart, lots of scrolling around, lots of different screens. Basically 3 1/2 hours of show and tell, off and on between eating pizza. The backlight was on the whole time. After 3 1/2 hours, the battery meter was still full bars.

 

I'm on:

Software Version 2.30

GPS Software Version 2.60

 

Seems like decent performance to me.

 

--Marky

 

Marky,

 

You told us your software versions, but you didn't say what device you are using. What GPS are you talking about here? If its the 400t, which I own, your Software version of 2.3 is newer than what I am running, but when I check, Garmin tells me there is no updated software for me.

 

I have the Colorado 400t with the following:

 

Software Version 2.20

GPS Software Version 2.60.

 

This may be why I am still seeing a problem with my battery levels.

 

LifeOnEdge!

I have a 400t, and yes, the 2.30 Software update doesn't get picked up by the webupdater for some reason. The 400t update is here.

 

--Marky

[+Marky]

I put in fresh Hybrid Sanyo Eneloop 2000mAh, backlight on full. Ran a Wherigo cart, lots of scrolling around, lots of different screens. Basically 3 1/2 hours of show and tell, off and on between eating pizza. The backlight was on the whole time. After 3 1/2 hours, the battery meter was still full bars.

 

I'm on:

Software Version 2.30

GPS Software Version 2.60

 

Seems like decent performance to me.

 

--Marky

 

Marky,

 

You told us your software versions, but you didn't say what device you are using. What GPS are you talking about here? If its the 400t, which I own, your Software version of 2.3 is newer than what I am running, but when I check, Garmin tells me there is no updated software for me.

 

I have the Colorado 400t with the following:

 

Software Version 2.20

GPS Software Version 2.60.

 

This may be why I am still seeing a problem with my battery levels.

 

LifeOnEdge!

I have a 400t, and yes, the 2.30 Software update doesn't get picked up by the webupdater for some reason. The 400t update is here.

 

--Marky

One other thing that affects battery life, I have the electronic compass turned off.

 

--Marky

[+Redwoods Mtn Biker]

The Wherigo function is the biggest upgrade feature I'm interested in for my crew. You see, we can create dichotomous keys to identify plants, insects, fish, amphibians and just about everything else we survey for with pictures and a "If you see this, then press that" method for narrowing down to species. But without a decent runtime with NIMH's that would have been useless.

 

When we create a few modules for identifying plants and animals we will post them for folks in Montana!

 

That is SO cool. I'd love to check it out if you make a key.

[+Marky]

4 1/2 hours with full backlighting, Eneloop 2000 mAh batteries. Battery meter is at 2 out of 4 bars. I've never seen it fluctuating. I'll check back on it in an hour or so.

 

--Marky

[+Marky]

At just under 5 hours, the screen dimmed. Still at two bars though.

 

One other thing, I have WAAS on (which wasn't the default).

 

--Marky

[+Marky]

7 hours, battery meter showing 1 bar, screen is a lot dumber (I mean, dimmer) but the thing is still chugging along. I'm going to stop the test, since I'm going to bed. For me, I'm perfectly happy with the performance using two 2000mAh hybrid NiMH batteries. Like some others though, I think I would rather not be forced to have a dimmer screen but I'm sure I can live with it. Also, by setting a screen backlight delay, the batteries should last a lot longer.

 

I'm not sure what the problem is with others, but mine seems perfectly fine.

 

--Marky

[+apersson850]

I had mine on for several hours yesterday. Today, the low battery warning was the first thing to emerge. Looking at the status screen, I have one half of a red bar.

Measuring the batteries, with the unit still on, gives 1.15 V for each battery, or 2.31 for them both. Not too much below the nominal 1.2 V for a NiMH battery, that's true.