Jump to content

Micros in the woods


Okiebryan

Recommended Posts

My wife and I took my kids caching today. We were going after 3 new caches in a public fishing and hunting area about 30 miles from the house. We took a friend and her child with us, and they had never cached before.

 

We had already looked for one the other night in the dark. DNF'd it.

 

We are all out there today in broad daylight. Scoured everything within a 30' circle of GZ. Skunked on all 3. I HATE MICROS IN THE WOODS. I wouldn't have even looked at these except they haven't been found yet.

 

The day wasn't a complete loss. We went to a nearby town and dropped off a cache I've been wanting to plant, snagged a local virtual, and got a really good small cache on the way home. But micros in the woods STILL suck.

Link to comment

I have said it before and I will say it again and again and again. people hide micros in the woods because they are too cheap to spend more than five cents on a cache hide.

 

Some will saying finding a micro in the woods is more of a challenge, Hiding a micros in the woods contributes to the destruction of plant life by cachers trying to find a cache that was hidden by a cheapskate.

 

Hiding an ammo box in the woods is a more of a challenge-but it cost more than five cents.

 

Around here (Sacramento) just about every cache hidden in the past two years has been a micro.

It has gotten to the point that a 35mm film canister is considered a large cache.

Link to comment

A micro in the woods is not a challenge, it's a pain !

Not interested in rummaging through leaves, pile of debris and dead woods, poking 100's holes etc... like a squirrel looking for acorn !

 

In the woods, the challenges have to be different: terrain, planning to avoid natural obstacles, navigation skill (projection, cap bearing...), puzzles etc....

[Edited by moderator for potty language.]

Edited by Keystone
Link to comment

<snip>

We are all out there today in broad daylight. Scoured everything within a 30' circle of GZ. Skunked on all 3. I HATE MICROS IN THE WOODS. I wouldn't have even looked at these except they haven't been found yet.

 

The day wasn't a complete loss. We went to a nearby town and dropped off a cache I've been wanting to plant, snagged a local virtual, and got a really good small cache on the way home. But micros in the woods STILL suck.

 

So how was the trip with the kids? Did they enjoy the hike and the time spent together? Funny that the day not being a complete loss is judged by other caches found and hidden. Not every person finds every cache. Sounds like the desire for a FTF overcame your desire to avoid micros.

 

Don't hunt caches you don't like. Log the DNF and move on. And no. I'm not particularly a fan of micros. But I do know how to look at a cache page and decide whether or not I want to hunt for it.

Link to comment

I don't like them where you can hide a larger cache. It smacks of laziness and it increases the impact on the area, as searchers are out there longer and looking in a wider area.

 

Most people hide these because they are too lazy to put together a regular cachee, but some do it to create a "challenge". Anybody can make a cache hard to find using a micro in the woods. Nobody will be impressed. If you want to impress people with your skill as a hider, hide an ammo box so that it's a challenge to find.

Edited by briansnat
Link to comment

CONTRARIAN OPINION ALERT!

 

I love forest micros. I love to hunt 'em and they're nearly the only type I hide. Of course everyone has their own preferences and can express them, but I think lumping them all together is a bit unfair.

 

I'm all about the location, the hike, the nature, the time spent outside (not at my desk!), making hopefully-clver little containers, etc. Forest micros can be fun, challenging-but-not-impossible, creative hides.

 

To each their own, right?

 

Happy caching,

 

StumpWater

Link to comment

I won't rule out a forest micro just because of what it is. I scan the log page to get a feel for it.

 

Agree that being outside, enjoying nature and getting excercise trump the actual cache, but what was the cacher's motive? Is he hiding this to conceal it from muggles, or is he trying to hide it from cachers? I personally don't like the latter. I don't want to inspect every single pinecone and stick laying on the forest floor to find a nano.

 

SD

Link to comment

"To each their own, right?"

Right.

While I don't share your view, I respect it.

And it has taken me some time to develop this respect.

 

"So how was the trip with the kids?"

Kids are especially disappointed when the goal is not met.

I can say with relative ease, _____ it, I ain't having fun anymore.

But the kids really want to find the cache. And to them it is more important

than spending a few hours with the old man.

When they are older, then they will appreciate the time together. B)

 

PP4x4

Link to comment

As the father of a 5 year old, I've learned the importance of distraction and diversion. I've taken him hunting with my numerous times, and to him, almost as disappointing as a DNF is finding a micro, since it can't hold swag. Therefore, I typically try to avoid most micros while caching with him, but I don't avoid micros hidden in nature. The reason I make an exception for "nature micros" (as opposed to "urban micros" is that I can easily distract him from the hunt (and the periodic DNF) by "exploring", and excitedly pointing out various aspects of our surroundings. One day we saw a train of ants carrying larvae, apparently moving their colony. Another day he had fun pointing out all the squirrel nests he could find, having recently learned how to spot them. We've picked up litter together, as he has learned the importance of not dropping trash on the ground. These are reasons I like forest hides, whether they be micros or otherwise. Of course, I always peruse the logs before I start out, and if there are several recent DNFs, I'll skip it to avoid wasting time.

Link to comment

Feels good to get that rant out, don't it?

 

I'm not fond of "haystack hides" anywhere - woods, parking lots, suburban parks. I'd say to the extent I'm going to hunt them, better "the woods".

 

I can understand the special tension of wanting the FTF, and how that will keep you hunting into the NHF zone (Not Having FUN). All you can do is be aware of NHF and, in a group especially, let "anyone call the hunt at any time for any reason." This is a paraphrase of one of the golden rules of cave diving - anyone can call the dive at any time for any reason (call meaning end - head to surface in the case of caving). Keeping the group happy makes for a fun/happy caching day, even if there are more DNFs.

 

I own several micros in the woods. One of which is on the "Best of Florida" list. Obviously there's micros and there's micros.... in the woods and on the roadside. I like them fine, if they aren't just haystack hides. Or film cans in tree crotches. Those are okay too - along a hiking trail, and given relative ease of find.

 

We aren't living in Lake Wobegon, where all the hiders are creative and all the hides are above average.

Edited by Isonzo Karst
Link to comment

I think micors in the woods blow... B) I like hiking and being out on the trail and I never could understand why anyone would want to place a film container in such a beautiful place B) . Micros in the woods promote destructive actions B) . Bark is ripped off trees, old rocks flipped over, holes dug, and I could go on. I hide traditional caches in the woods. My hides take you to a nice view or intersting place. If I can't get good cords than I will give good hints. I want people to find my hides and not walking away shaking their heads. I like finding a ammo can that I can open and see what treasures I come across. Yes I'm in for the find and what I like finding is somethng bigger than a pill jar, especially out in the woods.

 

My rule for micros are,

 

If it takes longer than five minutes to find then its not there or not hidden in the right spot

 

I consider micros in the woods as geo trash

 

I look at a micro as a lazy and cheap way to hide cache in a wooded area.

 

Micros are for urban environments only.

 

This is my opion and its one of the reasons I hardly geocache in the city I live in (Lexington) Its full of micros. I have to travel 20 miles to find a ammo can around where I live.

 

Oh the good days, where did they go...

Link to comment

Personally I have sworn of micros and really sworn of lamp post caches. Fiddling around lamp posts in a shopping center, I feel, gives our sport a bad name/image. My feeling is the micro is so much easier for the hider that we are getting a flurry of new micros along busy roads, next to restaurants, at edges of parking lots, around dumpsters, etc. These locations are private property. This is not the sylvan experience that best defines this sport. So long micros. Can't say I am going to miss you...

Link to comment

Expected remark from someone such as yourself B)

 

***I think micors in the woods blow***

 

Simple solution to you micro whiners....DON'T DO THEM.

 

You make it sound like you are being forced to hunt a micro. Good grief...don't check the micro box when doing a pocket query.

Link to comment

***I think micors in the woods blow***

 

Simple solution to you micro whiners....DON'T DO THEM.

 

You make it sound like you are being forced to hunt a micro. Good grief...don't check the micro box when doing a pocket query.

When the only type of cache being placed in an area is a Micro you do not have much of a choice as far as what to look for.

As it stands now we cannot cache in National parks. Here the Ca. state parks dept. if looking at goecahing. If cachers keep placing caches in wooded areas that cause others to trash the parks in searh of them, we may see geocaching band in state parks. Once the government gets involved in anything it can only result in a negative outcome.

Link to comment

I have nothing againist a well thought out, well camo'd micro - in the right setting. Out in the woods is just not the right setting. I'll have to agree with several of the others, I believe most of these are placed because they are cheap nearly disposable cache types. It is easy to conceal them in a wooded area and requires little or no planning. Requires no swag, no pencil.

 

A small or even regular sized cache could often be hidden just as well within 10 feet. These types of caches have always amazed me. They often don't last long and the owners tend to fade away.

 

If I arrive on scene and it starts looking like a micro out in the woods. I might get out and take a walk - maybe shoot some pictures - but I'll skip the search.

Link to comment

***I think micors in the woods blow***

 

Simple solution to you micro whiners....DON'T DO THEM.

 

You make it sound like you are being forced to hunt a micro. Good grief...don't check the micro box when doing a pocket query.

I agree with the Mongoloid. It's harder to open up a new topic in the forums to complain about micros than it is to avoid them when you're using a PQ. You can avoid the kinds of caches you don't like.

Link to comment

I did a search for caches hidden in the past year withing ten miles of Sacramento.

110 Micros

78 Small

0 Large

 

Of the small ones I found on the list, at best they were about three times larger than a 35mm film can.

If you ever come to sacramento, leave your TBs at home, you will not find anyplace to leave them.

Link to comment

Such broad brush painting so early in the AM. It isn't just about the size of the container, but about the amount of thought that went into the selection and placement of the container/

 

A needle in a haystack micro (or any other size container)-not that much fun.

A tupperware container with cheap swag and a hint of under the pine tree when ground zero is littered with dozens of them-not that much fun.

A tupperware container filled with junk 600' down a trail that can be spotted by the unusual pile of parallel sticks-not that much fun, but more than the previous examples

A micro in the woods that leads you down a nice trail or to an interesting spot, and then the location is fairly obvious-plenty of fun.

 

 

The term lazy has been tossed about more than usual in this thread. Isn't it almost just as lazy to grab a piece of cheap tupperware from the kitchen cupboard, open the junk drawer and toss some unwanted stuff inside, and walk down a trail and make a pile of parallel sticks for an obvious find? B)

 

If some of us keep posting "it's all about the journey" then why do we rant about not being able to find caches, or only the kinds we don't like are being hidden in my area? B)

 

I do prefer to find caches when I set out. I suppose that is why I don't fish-it's all about the degree of expectations.

 

But at the end of the day if setting out to find some caches has gotten me away from my work and home responsibilities and I've heard, seen, smelled the great outdoors instead of work, it's a good day overall. Add the company of a few like minded souls to share the experiences with and laugh a bit, and it is a very good day overall.

 

BTW my work usually smells pretty good too. Freshly baked cookies just came out of the oven. B)

Edited by wimseyguy
Link to comment
When the only type of cache being placed in an area is a Micro you do not have much of a choice as far as what to look for.

 

I did a search for caches hidden in the past year withing ten miles of Sacramento.

110 Micros

78 Small

0 Large

 

Of the small ones I found on the list, at best they were about three times larger than a 35mm film can.

If you ever come to sacramento, leave your TBs at home, you will not find anyplace to leave them.

 

44 of 75 of your Traditional caches are micros. That's about 60%.

 

Instead of complaining how many Micros are hidden, why not just stop hiding them? B)

Edited by Mushtang
Link to comment
I'm not a big fan of needle-in-a-haystack caches either, so I avoid them for the most part.

I agree. I enjoy a challenge, but I greatly prefer a good thinking challenge to a tedious one. A cache hunt can be frustratingly monotonous even when it's not in the woods and even when it's not a micro; a film canister in the forest, however, is usually not much fun at all unless there is some interesting twist involved.

 

That potential for something unexpected and cool is usually what keeps me going – at least until frustration takes over, or I run out of time.

 

Some people enjoy them. To each his own. B)

Absolutely. As long as there is a chance someone will enjoy them, I say let them be.

 

Laziness may explain some of them, but I think in most cases the hider is honestly trying to present a difficult challenge. Clumsily perhaps, but hey, sometimes people get competitive and start trying to out-difficult each other (Heh heh heh, they’ll NEVER find this one, BWWAAAA--HAHAHAHAH). Some cachers truly enjoy trying to prevent each other from finding the cache. It is fun for them. That, in my opinion, is a perfectly valid way to play, regardless whether I personally choose to participate in the escalation.

 

As a cache seeker it is my responsibility to decide which caches to seek, which ones to avoid, and which ones to abandon whenever I realize I’ve stopped having fun.

Link to comment

I did a search for caches hidden in the past year withing ten miles of Sacramento.

110 Micros

78 Small

0 Large

 

Of the small ones I found on the list, at best they were about three times larger than a 35mm film can.

If you ever come to sacramento, leave your TBs at home, you will not find anyplace to leave them.

 

You could alleviate a small degree of that you know. B)

Link to comment
When the only type of cache being placed in an area is a Micro you do not have much of a choice as far as what to look for.

 

I did a search for caches hidden in the past year withing ten miles of Sacramento.

110 Micros

78 Small

0 Large

 

Of the small ones I found on the list, at best they were about three times larger than a 35mm film can.

If you ever come to sacramento, leave your TBs at home, you will not find anyplace to leave them.

 

44 of 75 of your Traditional caches are micros. That's about 60%.

 

Instead of complaining how many Micros are hidden, why not just stop hiding them? B)

And the micros that I have placed are in places that will not support a large cache.

Of course unless you have found them you would not know that, I would also add that there are micros that are HoHum micros and micros that get people get a kick out of finding.

The thread is about micros in the woods Maybe you should go back and read the topic heading. Of course that would reqiure a little more effort on your part.

Of those 110 micros that have been place in the Sacramento area, most of them are trash hides or in places that will support a large cache.

Link to comment

I did a search for caches hidden in the past year withing ten miles of Sacramento.

110 Micros

78 Small

0 Large

 

Of the small ones I found on the list, at best they were about three times larger than a 35mm film can.

If you ever come to sacramento, leave your TBs at home, you will not find anyplace to leave them.

 

You could alleviate a small degree of that you know. B)

small jars, the ones used for urin samples

Link to comment

Unsubscribing from this topic...

... I'm tired of reading discussions involving people complaining about micros. I'm with Drooling - just don't seek them out. If you want more non-micros in your area, hide them!

ummmm - the topic is about micros hidden in the woods - not micros in general - not seeking them ever doesn't help the issue.......

Link to comment

And the micros that I have placed are in places that will not support a large cache.

And you couldn't find a place that could support a large cache instead of hiding these? All the large cache places were all used up?

 

Of course unless you have found them you would not know that, I would also add that there are micros that I think are HoHum micros and micros that get I get a kick out of finding.
Fixed

 

The thread is about micros in the woods Maybe you should go back and read the topic heading. Of course that would reqiure a little more effort on your part.
You're right. It must have been posts like this one complaining about lack of TB space that threw me off. I looked at that post and didn't see anything having to do with micros in the woods.

 

Of those 110 micros that have been place in the Sacramento area, most of them are trash hides or in places that will support a large cache.
So? I'd guess people are still enjoying finding them.
Link to comment

I did a search for caches hidden in the past year withing ten miles of Sacramento.

110 Micros

78 Small

0 Large

 

Of the small ones I found on the list, at best they were about three times larger than a 35mm film can.

If you ever come to sacramento, leave your TBs at home, you will not find anyplace to leave them.

 

You could alleviate a small degree of that you know. B)

small jars, the ones used for urin samples

 

If you think that makes a good TB cache, sure!

Link to comment

I hope everybody wishing for ammo can hides in this thread has hidden their own fair share of ammo can hides. Just sayin'... B)

 

Guilty!

 

 

Simple solution to you micro whiners....DON'T DO THEM.

 

You make it sound like you are being forced to hunt a micro. Good grief...don't check the micro box when doing a pocket query.

 

The added impact of these things on the area is why I don't like them. If I filter them out it doesn't change that.

Edited by briansnat
Link to comment

Unsubscribing from this topic...

... I'm tired of reading discussions involving people complaining about micros. I'm with Drooling - just don't seek them out. If you want more non-micros in your area, hide them!

ummmm - the topic is about micros hidden in the woods - not micros in general - not seeking them ever doesn't help the issue.......

Some people just do not know how to read what a topic is about before they post to it or read it.

Do you think he really Unsubscribed, maybe he is just trying to make us feel good B)

Link to comment

I have hidden several caches - and one of them was a "micro in the woods" - and not a single person has complained - and many have found it and like it.

 

Bottom line is - when you going looking for my "mico in the woods" you know exactly what you are in for. So no regrets here for hiding it (and I hope it will one day inspire someone else to hide a similar one)

Link to comment

Depends on who hides them. In this area there are some cachers who are very consistent at providing excellent coordinates, and good at maintaining their hides. There are some who are consistently off with their coordinates, and have a history of ignoring their hides.

 

If the MITW is by one of the former, I'll go after it. I don't mind the challenge. If it's by the latter, I skip it entirely.

Link to comment

***I think micors in the woods blow***

 

Simple solution to you micro whiners....DON'T DO THEM.

 

You make it sound like you are being forced to hunt a micro. Good grief...don't check the micro box when doing a pocket query.

I agree, if you don't like them just ignore them. Why go after them then complain about it when you don't find them.

Link to comment

***The added impact of these things on the area is why I don't like them.***

 

If the problem is an environment impact problem (people ripping apart bushs and plants to find them) then eliminate them before a bigger problem is created (banned geocaches).

 

I remember going metal detecting years ago...until it was banned in many parks because people dug holes and never covered them up again.

 

I would rather do a Virtual Cache over a Micro cache. At least the virtual gave a challange of finding additional information. Sometimes you had a chance to learn something from the questions and answers...and you didn't need to rip anything apart to enjoy them.

Edited by Drooling_Mongoloid
Link to comment

I did a search for caches hidden in the past year withing ten miles of Sacramento.

110 Micros

78 Small

0 Large

 

Of the small ones I found on the list, at best they were about three times larger than a 35mm film can.

If you ever come to sacramento, leave your TBs at home, you will not find anyplace to leave them.

 

You could alleviate a small degree of that you know. B)

 

That's not going to help him much... You can't claim a find on your own caches. B)

Link to comment
And you couldn't find a place that could support a large cache instead of hiding these? All the large cache places were all used up?

 

Wow, this is from someone that has place 9 caches in over 4 years and has only been able to maintain 3 of them.

 

I just bought ten more ammo cans. When I have time they will be placed. As I archive old caches that I feel have run their course.

 

You missed the point again, the thread is about Micros in the woods, this is not a Micro cache Vs. large cache

topic

Edited by JohnnyVegas
Link to comment

I did a search for caches hidden in the past year withing ten miles of Sacramento.

110 Micros

78 Small

0 Large

 

Of the small ones I found on the list, at best they were about three times larger than a 35mm film can.

If you ever come to sacramento, leave your TBs at home, you will not find anyplace to leave them.

 

You could alleviate a small degree of that you know. B)

 

That's not going to help him much... You can't claim a find on your own caches. B)

 

I didn't say he could help himself. I am saying he can alleviate that statistical anomaly and he could host some caches that would encourage TB's.

 

And, technically, you can claim a find on your own caches. B)

Link to comment

This is one of my first times browsing the forums and found this topic very intriguing. In a way I must agree with the OP on this one. Down here in Florida developers snag every piece of vacant land causing cachable forest land to be at a premium. Many of these increasingly rare pieces of land have been taken up by micros in places where a small cache (at the very least) should have gone. I like micros, I hide micros, but there is something satisfying about going on a long hike and finding a nice cache full of trade items (even McJunk). The woods should be reserved for larger caches. Especially when a small water proof Lock and Lock can be had for less than 5 dollars. I believe micros should be applied in urban settings or areas prone to high muggle activity.

Link to comment

You missed the point again, the thread is about Micros in the woods, this is not a Micro cache Vs. large cache

topic

 

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if these caches are "micros in the woods", "micros under lamp post skirts" or any other subset of micros...the crux of the issue remains the same. If you don't like <insert cache type here> then avoid them.

 

The type of the cache really has no bearing on the validity of the point.

Link to comment

I not only like them, I prefer them. I love being in the woods, mountains, etc. and a clever container (which is generally a small to nano sized container) makes the time even better. For the record, my 3 kids (ages 9, 7, and 6) also enjoy these the most as well. They like swag, but aren't upset if they don't find it. They like the challenge involved in finding a cool container. They make it a competition to see who can spot it first. And if they don't want to search for one, they climb around on rocks, play hide and seek, or just run around while mom and dad do the searching. It makes for a happy time all around.

Link to comment

I think micors in the woods blow... B) I like hiking and being out on the trail and I never could understand why anyone would want to place a film container in such a beautiful place B) .

I find that micros sometimes take you a better place than you can get to by hiding a larger cache. Especially a cache hidden at a scenic view. Miragee often posts pictures in these kinds of threads of the views from some of her micros. I don't believe the size of a cache has much to do with how interesting or beuatiful a place it takes you to.

 

Micros in the woods promote destructive actions B) . Bark is ripped off trees, old rocks flipped over, holes dug, and I could go on.
I often challenge this statement. Where I cache, an ammo can hidden under a manzanita bush often results in more damage than a well hidden micro. The micro can be reached from the trail without trampling the sensitive chaparral on a hillside. I guess in some areas going off trail to find a ammo can under a pile of sticks is likely to cause less damage than reaching into a hole or turning over a few rocks. Using a scorched earth search technique is never acceptable practice. I can't understand how anyone could justify ripping up vegetation, flipping over rocks without taking time to put them back, or digging holes (even micros should never be buried so there is no need for digging holes). A micro in the woods requires thinking about where a cacher would hide the micro and patience in exploring the various hiding places. If you don't have the patience or are unable to think then you should not be searching for micros in the woods (or any other cache for that matter).
I hide traditional caches in the woods. My hides take you to a nice view or intersting place. If I can't get good cords than I will give good hints. I want people to find my hides and not walking away shaking their heads. I like finding a ammo can that I can open and see what treasures I come across. Yes I'm in for the find and what I like finding is somethng bigger than a pill jar, especially out in the woods.
I always say you should hide the caches you like to find. I enjoy finding micros in the woods (as well as sometimes finding a bigger cache) so I hide both.

My rule for micros are,

 

If it takes longer than five minutes to find then its not there or not hidden in the right spot

 

I consider micros in the woods as geo trash

 

I look at a micro as a lazy and cheap way to hide cache in a wooded area.

 

Micros are for urban environments only.

 

This is my opion and its one of the reasons I hardly geocache in the city I live in (Lexington) Its full of micros. I have to travel 20 miles to find a ammo can around where I live.

 

Oh the good days, where did they go...

Patience and thoughtfulness and needed to search for micros. Cachers who want to get a quick find and not have to think about how to go about a careful search for a cache should stick to micros that are hidden in parking lot lamp posts or ammo cans and tupperware under piles of sticks.
Link to comment
Wow, this is from someone that has place 9 caches in over 4 years and has only been able to maintain 3 of them.
I've actually placed 10. So I guess you define changing jobs and moving away from caches and deciding to archive them as "not being able to maintain them"? You're correct, I was too far away to be able to maintain them so I archived some (and adopted out another). What does all this have to do with you hiding micros in areas instead of finding other places to hide larger caches, and then complaining about all the micros hidden which leaves no place to hide TBs?

 

I just bought ten more ammo cans. When I have time they will be placed. As I archive old caches that I feel have run their course.
Good for you. This actually sounds like you're doing something about the lack of TB caches... eventually. However it might look better if you replace your micros first, and then complain about micros not being able to hold TBs later.

 

You missed the point again, the thread is about Micros in the woods, this is not a Micro cache Vs. large cache

topic

Correct. BTW, point me to one thing in your post that has to do with Micros in the woods. Or should only other people stay on topic, just like only other people shouldn't have put out micro caches to TBs could be traded?

 

Point taken. To stay on topic I'll suggest that if someone doesn't like micros in the woods that they don't look for them. There are easy ways to avoid these, and there are way plenty of other caches to hunt for that you would enjoy.

Link to comment

I'll just quote briansnat to respond to a few posts here.....

 

The added impact of these things on the area is why I don't like them. If I filter them out it doesn't change that.

 

I deliberately avoided that statement before, but since you've re-quoted in that context I'll ask the question.

 

Filtering out does change it. It changed it for you. You are avoiding a cache that you personally don't like. If others like them then what's the point in being on some kind of mission to eradicate them serve?

 

I am failing to see where this topic is anything more than a "personal preference" topic. We're all welcome to our opinions, but outside of personal preference I am not seeing the issue with them. We all have caches we like, or dislike, more than others.

 

In fact, what's most interesting to me about you quoting that, StarBrand, is that one of your first replies on the subject seemed to indicate you do exactly what has been suggested and you are fine with it.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...