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Criminal Trespassing w/o Letter of Permission?

vigorousblue

By vigorousblue
in General geocaching topics

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urban.one

+urban.one

Posted
Posted

I take this view point as well. Poking around a church around midnite probably isnt the best idea. Even though the pastor gave permission for the cache to be placed on the property he may not have understood what to expect as a result and didnt expect people to be poking around the church in the middle of the night.

 

It may have even been the pastor who called the police because he saw people out around the church.

 

Many of these trespassing issues are prefaced by mentioning their encounter with the law happens at night.

 

If you'd have looked for this cache during the day I doubt there ever would have been an incident.

 

There's just very few places out there that you can prowl around after dark with a flashlight that will NOT attract Johnny Law.

 

Rather than making this thread about permission forms, it should be about inappropriately hunting for non-night caches at night.

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UncleJimbo

+UncleJimbo

Posted
Posted

I recently attempted a cache in a nearby city with a fellow cacher. I would guess that the city's population is somewhere in the 30-50,000 range. My friend and I both work quite late, and rarely have time to go caching while it's still light out, so the hour was approaching midnight. The cache we were looking for was on church property, and the cache description clearly stated that permission was granted from the pastor. After about 30 unsuccessful minutes attempting to locate the cache, we decided to move on; we exited the woods and re-entered our vehicle. On our way out of the parking lot we were met head on by 2 police cars, complete with screeching tires, sirens and flashing lights. The officers approached us whilst yelling at us to show our hands. After yelling at us repeatedly to keep our hands visible, they acquired our Identification and called our names in. I was asked what we were doing here at this time of night, and of course I readily explained. Unfortunately, the police officer questioning me seemed to know a little bit about the sport, without really knowing much at all, and he was not interested in the slightest about hearing me explain it to him. In the 15 to 20 minutes that we were detained, he claimed with raised voice that what we were doing was criminal trespassing. Further, he explained that without a letter of permission from the property owner, he had full authorization to take us in under that charge. When I explained to him that the cache owner had permission to place the cache, he said that, that did not imply permission for us to enter the property at such a late hour, and unless we had the name and phone number or a letter of permission from the property owner, we were committing a crime. In the end, he "let us go" with a verbal warning, but promised serious consequences if we were caught on private property at such "odd hours" again. Both squad cars then proceeded to follow us for the full 5 or 6 miles back to the interstate, and out of their town.

Up until this point, all of my encounters with law enforcement while geocaching have been completely favorable, and I've even had a small town sheriff help me find a cache. I had never heard of anything like this happening before, but I must say that it completely spoiled our night. What's more, I can't help but be a little nervous to go caching after my little get-together with the police. Does anyone have an opinion on this matter? Is there any truth to what the officer claimed concerning criminal trespassing charges and letters of permission? Any insightful feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

Seriously, rummaging around on private property at midnight sounds like asking for trouble.

 

I would suggest caching during daylight or limiting your nighttime caching to innocuous, public woodland areas.

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Cpt.Blackbeard

+Cpt.Blackbeard

Posted
Posted
Rather than making this thread about permission forms, it should be about inappropriately hunting for non-night caches at night.

 

There is nothing inappropriate with looking for non night caches at night.

 

I have found lots of caches at night. I have two encunters with LEOs, both time I explained what I was doing and both times they just told me good luck and left.

 

You just bump up your risk of an encounter. Even if you are doing nothing wrong. That's something you have to factor in.

I agree. You're asking for more run-ins with cops by caching late at night. Cache during the day if at all possible and avoid private property no matter what time it is.

 

Hey now, stop that. All three of my caches are on private property, MINE, and I want people to find them, I even posted on the cache page that people are free to look for them 24 hours a day. I set up a parking area where they can come, cache and leave without me even knowing they are here if they desire.

In spite of all this I've had very few finders, no doubt because like you they think, private property, stay away.

THAT is not nice to me, so stop trying to chase cachers away from my caches. :rolleyes:

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TheAlabamaRambler

+TheAlabamaRambler

Posted
Posted

I get checked out by the cops regularly - did again last night, it's never a big deal and usually quite funny... see my logs for GC180BY and GC18MZ2.

 

Usually they roll up, ask what you are up to, you try to explain geocaching, their eyes glaze over, they tell you to have a good time and drive away. Sometimes they'll run your tag and Drivers License. No big deal. Smile. Be polite. Be agreeable. They're just people, but they're people who hate being lied to and who will tolerate zero attitude!

 

While I have had no problem, however, a cacher I know WAS arrested for criminal trespass while hunting an urban cache.

 

He was arrested, prosecuted and given a two year suspended sentence, and ordered not to geocache for one year!

 

This was in Arkansas, in the daytime, in the grass border between a gas station and a store.

 

The cacher's wife was in the car watching as he was hand-cuffed and taken to the patrol car - she and the cacher swore they did or said nothing to aggravate the officer!

 

Maybe someone better at searching the forums can find the threads, it was followed and discussed at the time both here and on arkgeocaching.org, but I don't remember exactly when it was - 18 months or so ago.

 

So it CAN happen!

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Phipps Family

+Phipps Family

Posted
Posted (edited)

Under Ohio law, you do NOT have to be told to leave before being charged. The sticky part is the "without privilege to do so". Without written permission or the landowner there you have no way to prove you had permission. Technically this would apply during the daytime as well, but you are less likely to draw attention during the day.

 

2911.21 Criminal trespass.

(A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:

 

(1) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another;

 

(2) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, the use of which is lawfully restricted to certain persons, purposes, modes, or hours, when the offender knows the offender is in violation of any such restriction or is reckless in that regard;

 

(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;

 

(4) Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either.

 

(:rolleyes: It is no defense to a charge under this section that the land or premises involved was owned, controlled, or in custody of a public agency.

 

© It is no defense to a charge under this section that the offender was authorized to enter or remain on the land or premises involved, when such authorization was secured by deception.

 

(D) Whoever violates this section is guilty of criminal trespass, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

 

(E) As used in this section, “land or premises” includes any land, building, structure, or place belonging to, controlled by, or in custody of another, and any separate enclosure or room, or portion thereof.

Edited by Phipps Family
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Confucius' Cat

+Confucius' Cat

Posted
Posted

Perhaps it would be a good idea for caches owners who have caches on private property to put a signed permission paper in the caches.

Of course you would still get arrested for DNF

 

:lol: It is not criminal trespassing unless you remain on the property after being asked to leave by an employee, owner, etc. OR if you have been told by an employee, owner, etc. IN THE PRESENCE of an officer, that you are not allowed on the property, and you then remain or come back on the property.

Not true. Study your law. Change your socks.

Laws vary dramatically from state to state.

Indiana law IC 35-43-2-2 does require that you be personally told to leave or be "denied access." Whereas "posting at the main entrance" serves as "denial of access" (b 2), the case would probably turn on the definition of "main entrance," especially in open areas.

 

As it is generally practiced in Indiana, LEO will not arrest unless there has been a clear personal communication to the alleged trespasser.

 

To OP

As with all law, it is totally open to interpretation. So on the scene, "Yes, (Sir or madam)" is the correct response as you quickly, quietly and graciously leave.

 

You really don't want to spend the night in jail and then blow a lot of money and time defending yourself do you? You might well win, but you still lose.

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Neos2

Neos2

Posted
Posted

I can't speak for all states, but here in NC there is a charge of 3rd Degree Trespass that is a criminal charge.

 

3rd Degree Trespass in broad terms requires you to have "written permission" on your person if you are on the particular property. The "broad terms" have to do with what property, etc. and not the requirement that you have the written permission.

AN ACT TO CREATE A NEW OFFENSE OF THIRD DEGREE TRESPASS IN DAVIDSON COUNTY.

 

Section 1. (a) Offense. – A person commits the offense of third degree trespass if, without written authorization, he enters or remains on the premises of another for the purpose of hunting, fishing, trapping, or operating an all terrain vehicle.

 

Classification. – Third degree trespass is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for up to 30 days, a fine up to two hundred dollars ($200.00), or both.

 

Sec. 2. This act applies only to Davidson County.

 

Sec. 3. This act becomes effective October 1, 1991, and applies to offenses committed on or after that date.

 

In the General Assembly read three times and ratified this the 10th day of June, 1991.

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Confucius' Cat

+Confucius' Cat

Posted
Posted

I can't speak for all states, but here in NC there is a charge of 3rd Degree Trespass that is a criminal charge.

 

3rd Degree Trespass in broad terms requires you to have "written permission" on your person if you are on the particular property. The "broad terms" have to do with what property, etc. and not the requirement that you have the written permission.

AN ACT TO CREATE A NEW OFFENSE OF THIRD DEGREE TRESPASS IN DAVIDSON COUNTY.

 

Section 1. (a) Offense. – A person commits the offense of third degree trespass if, without written authorization, he enters or remains on the premises of another for the purpose of hunting, fishing, trapping, or operating an all terrain vehicle.

 

Classification. – Third degree trespass is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for up to 30 days, a fine up to two hundred dollars ($200.00), or both.

 

Sec. 2. This act applies only to Davidson County.

 

Sec. 3. This act becomes effective October 1, 1991, and applies to offenses committed on or after that date.

 

In the General Assembly read three times and ratified this the 10th day of June, 1991.

:D *confused*

How does a local ordinance directed solely at hunters, trappers, fisherpersons, and four-wheelers apply to geocaching?

 

Also typical of many local ordinances, it is redundant since the acts delineated are already illegal under state law and DNR regulations. I would surmise just a way to "keep the money at home."

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racer2814

+racer2814

Posted
Posted

The laws vary in every state, so unless you are familiar with all 50+ states laws you shouldn't make blanket statements about what does and doesn't constitute trespassing.

 

I've cached a lot at night, but we try to choose caches along country roads for that. Or parks that are obviously still open, lights on and no signs. We were stopped a couple weeks ago, around 2am for acting strange and we were just driving to the next cache. Slowed on a 4-lane to punch up cache and determine if park was open, changed lanes and turned into a dead end subdivision to turn around and go back to park. Although officer seemed like he didn't believe us, he let us go after just a couple min. and watched us go back to the park AT 2AM. It was a dnf, so we headed out of town and ended up at a guardrail within .25mi of a prison. Just asking for trouble, I know.

 

2 of us were stopped in broad daylight too. In a small city park looking around an evergreen growing in a concrete/brick square thing. Neighbors called us in because we were suspicious. A middle-aged fat girl and a 65yr old preacher. Still not sure what I did that was suspicious. We were giving the shurbery our blessing.

 

Hubby and I were ordered out of the woods behind a vacant lot near an interstate ramp because an officer thought we were drinking back there. It was 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Once I explained and told him the cache had been there for over 3 yrs he was fine.

 

Campus security came by late at night at one cache, he was ok with it too.

 

Bottom line, evaluate the area before you stop, don't stay for more than 10min, and if confronted-be pleasant, don't lie, and tell them that you were leaving. Then don't complain about the officers doing their job, whether they did it well or not. He may have been shot at previously under a similar circumstance, you just never know.

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geomann1

+geomann1

Posted
Posted

We have neighbors here that call the police for criminal trespassing and they laugh because you have to be knowingly or recklessly causing damage in excess of $1,000 to the value of the property of another.

 

Walking on Grass is not $1000 in damage...

 

err...not that I agree with one side or the other, but that is not what you posted.

 

635:2 Criminal Trespass. –

I. A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place.

II. Criminal trespass is a misdemeanor for the first offense and a class B felony for any subsequent offense if the person knowingly or recklessly causes damage in excess of $1,000 to the value of the property of another.

III. Criminal trespass is a misdemeanor if:

(a) The trespass takes place in an occupied structure as defined in RSA 635:1, III; or

(:D The person knowingly enters or remains:

(1) In any secured premises;

(2) In any place in defiance of an order to leave or not to enter which was personally communicated to him by the owner or other authorized person; or

(3) In any place in defiance of any court order restraining him from entering such place so long as he has been properly notified of such order.

IV. All other criminal trespass is a violation.

V. In this section, ""secured premises'' means any place which is posted in a manner prescribed by law or in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, or which is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders.

VI. In this section, ""property,'' ""property of another,'' and ""value'' shall be as defined in RSA 637:2, I, IV, and V, respectively.

 

It is my understanding that the above in fairly typical of trespassing laws in most states. Other the entering a home or other 'secured premise', you must either be causing damage, the property must be clearly posted no tresspassing, or you refuse to leave when asked.

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Clan Riffster

Clan Riffster

Posted
Posted

Typically, most states trespassing laws hinge upon the subject being in a place where they have received notice that they don't belong. The primary differences between states is what constitutes "receiving notice". In Florida, you have received notice if there are signs posted, if there is fencing, if there are ditches, if the land has been cultivated, if the property is the unenclosed curtilage of a dwelling or if you were told in person.

 

Other states mileage may vary.

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bettsbugs

+bettsbugs

Posted
Posted

I had an interesting run in with the cops just last week.

 

I had decided I wanted to attempt a FTF on a brand new cache and thus headed out first thing in the morning before the sun was up. The cache was located along a set of abandoned railroad tracks, so I parked the car on a culdesac at the nearest road intersection to avoid traipsing across private property. This just happened to be about the same time that kiddies and parents were waiting for the school bus. Not thinking anything of it, I got my stuff together and headed on down the tracks with my GPS and flashlight in hand.

 

I found the cache no problem and was marginally disappointed that a couple of very ambitious cachers had beat me to it by going out late the night before. I walk back to the car, checked where the next cache location was and went on my merry way.

 

As I arrived at the next cache location, a car pulled up behind me. Assuming it was someone wanting to check their mail (micro on mailbox cluster), I drove away. The car followed me. I pulled off to let them pass so I could turn around and go back to look for the cache. Red and blue lights turned on.

 

Apparently I had been called in as a 'suspicious person'. The RCMP was very nice about the whole thing after I explained to him what I was doing and he checked me out. But the lesson learned is to not cache during school pickup/dropoff times. Or at least not in the vicinity of kids being picked up and dropped off. Apparently parking your car and going for a walk along abandoned railroad tracks is suspicious!

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Confucius' Cat

+Confucius' Cat

Posted
Posted

I had an interesting run in with the cops just last week.

 

I had decided I wanted to attempt a FTF on a brand new cache and thus headed out first thing in the morning before the sun was up. The cache was located along a set of abandoned railroad tracks, so I parked the car on a culdesac at the nearest road intersection to avoid traipsing across private property. This just happened to be about the same time that kiddies and parents were waiting for the school bus. Not thinking anything of it, I got my stuff together and headed on down the tracks with my GPS and flashlight in hand.

 

I found the cache no problem and was marginally disappointed that a couple of very ambitious cachers had beat me to it by going out late the night before. I walk back to the car, checked where the next cache location was and went on my merry way.

 

As I arrived at the next cache location, a car pulled up behind me. Assuming it was someone wanting to check their mail (micro on mailbox cluster), I drove away. The car followed me. I pulled off to let them pass so I could turn around and go back to look for the cache. Red and blue lights turned on.

 

Apparently I had been called in as a 'suspicious person'. The RCMP was very nice about the whole thing after I explained to him what I was doing and he checked me out. But the lesson learned is to not cache during school pickup/dropoff times. Or at least not in the vicinity of kids being picked up and dropped off. Apparently parking your car and going for a walk along abandoned railroad tracks is suspicious!

EVERYTHING is suspicious if "the chiiiillldren" are involved. :D

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Right Wing Wacko

+Right Wing Wacko

Posted
Posted

They can charge you with criminal trespassing, but it doesnt mean you will be convicted.

He was doing exactly what he was trained to do, although went about it a bit too harshly. They most likely are having a vandalism problem at that location.

 

I would not seek caches on private property at night, especially if you are from out of town.

 

The POLICE cannot initiate a Trespassing Charge. Only the property owner or manager can file a trespassing complaint.

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infiniteMPG

+infiniteMPG

Posted
Posted (edited)

Perhaps it would be a good idea for caches owners who have caches on private property to put a signed permission paper in the caches.

 

Which is fine and dandy unless you get nabbed prior to making the find :yikes:

 

I have a fellow cacher locally who is a Sheriff and gives us all the insight from the other side of thje blue lights. Basically even if there are no tresspassing signs and they catch you there, unless you are obviously doing something malicious (was witnessed throwing bricks thru a window) or appear to be getting ready to (behind a building pouring gas on the shrubbery... NI!) the only thing they can do is ask you to leave. If you don't leave immediately then they can do something. But if you're wandering seemingly aimlessly (i.e. - geocaching) and you leave when asked then end of story. Of course you're on your own with an officer who may of had a bad day so there's a lot of latitude for what may happen. I also had a cache nabbed by some highway patrolmen who actually bragged about taking it to some cachers who were seeking it. There's all types.

 

Use common sense whenever possible.

Edited by infiniteMPG
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