PN-20 or Colorado 400t?

[+Noscitare]

Hi folks.

 

I'm new here and am planning on taking up Geocaching in the spring, or sooner should this winter remain as mild as it has been up to now. I've been reading this forum for several weeks and have been using it as my springboard for further research into the multitude of GPSr's that are on the market.

 

At first my "short list" consisted of the DeLorme PN-20, the Garmin 60CSx and the Garmin Vista HCx. Eventually I had decided on the PN-20. My reason for this decision is that, while the PN-20 doesn't seem to be as widely used as the various Garmin and Magellan products, it does seem that those who do use it find it absolutely wonderful. The only drawbacks that I've noticed mentioned about the PN-20 are the small screen and a comparatively long screen refresh rate (isn't it amazing how we now now consider five seconds to be a "long time"?). But since I don't plan on using it in my car, I don't consider either of those issues to be a drawback for me.

 

The Garmin and Magellan users out there appear to have far more issues than the PN-20 folks. (But then, this could be an appearance only, caused by the fact that there seems to be substantially more Garmin and Magellan users out there than PN-20 users.) Plus, there are all of these utterly glowing comments with regard to DeLorme's customer service department. Those reports make me want to buy a PN-20 and PRAY that something DOES go wrong with it just so that I can have the pleasure of working with DeLorme customer service.

 

But then I began reading about the Triton and the Colorado series and my short list grew again. The Triton 2000 horror stories that I've been reading here eliminated that GPSr from my list pretty quickly. I'm now waffling between ordering a PN-20 now or waiting for the release of the Colorado 400t. I realize that the Colorado is a couple of hundred dollars more expensive, but I'm a gadget freak and I've not treated myself to a new gadget in quite some time. Thus I can rationalize away the additional expense.

 

Now to my question: Are there any PN-20 users who are going to purchase, or are at least considering purchasing, a Colorado to replace their PN-20? If so, why? And if not, why not?

 

Advice from non-users of the PN-20 will be appreciated also.

 

I could really use some help with this decision.

 

Thanks.

[+triturtle]

One thing I would say is that there are a lot of utilities at are Garmin specific. Geocaching.com has a relatively new tool to upload the cache directly to your GPSr which is only for Garmin (at this time). Because of this, I would lean towards Garmin.

[+benjamin921]

If you are going to use a GPSr for outdoor use, get the PN-20. The maps are the best handsdown. I'm sure that in your research that you have found that you get the mapping DVD with the PN-20 and a certificate for $100 to download aerial imagery. The PN-20 does OK on the road but is the phenomenal for outdoor use such as geocaching.

[+Noscitare]

One thing I would say is that there are a lot of utilities at are Garmin specific. Geocaching.com has a relatively new tool to upload the cache directly to your GPSr which is only for Garmin (at this time). Because of this, I would lean towards Garmin.

 

Yes...I had been considering that the ubiquity of the Garmin line might have benfits such as that.

 

By the way....it seems that we live in the same city.....about 1500 miles apart.

 

And thanks for the feedback.

[+KJcachers]

nice, I am going through the same shopping considerations. GarminMaps60csx is my frontrunner if for no other reason than to have a Garmin for direct downloads from Geocaching.com but the DeLorme's notes will hold 200 characters (sooon to be 800) so paperless would work nicely in 1 device. I also would like the hear from people who have owned Garmins and the DeLorme and see how the accuracy compares. I believe there are some differences between the Garmins and the Magellans.

[+Noscitare]

If you are going to use a GPSr for outdoor use, get the PN-20. The maps are the best handsdown. I'm sure that in your research that you have found that you get the mapping DVD with the PN-20 and a certificate for $100 to download aerial imagery. The PN-20 does OK on the road but is the phenomenal for outdoor use such as geocaching.

 

Thanks for the response. Whatever GPSr I do decide to get, it would be getting used exclusively for geocaching. I don't go on too many roadtrips these days, and when I do I'm comfortable with the old Rand-McNally Road Atlas and a local city map that can be picked up at any convenience store.

 

I'm thinking that I just might not need all of the bells & whistles that the Colorado might have to offer for that extra couple of hundred bucks.

 

Thanks again for the reply.

[+Noscitare]

nice, I am going through the same shopping considerations. GarminMaps60csx is my frontrunner...

 

Is there any particular reason (other than price) that would have you looking at the 60CSx rather than waiting for the Colorado line to hit the street?

[+embra]

Now to my question: Are there any PN-20 users who are going to purchase, or are at least considering purchasing, a Colorado to replace their PN-20? If so, why? And if not, why not?

As a PN-20 user, I have been following the posts on the Colorado closely to see how much they would be competing with each other. After I realized that the 1:24000 topo maps would be limited to the National Park series, my sense of the two as direct competition diminished.

 

For me, it starts with the maps. Delorme has that down pretty well, and they seem to be working hard to improve the PN-20 firmware enough to make it a good vehicle for their maps. That takes care of my highest priorities, and I can live with the shortcomings in the meantime (BTW, I think you made a good analysis above). If you're a gadget guy who likes software, too, mastering the Topo software should be a rewarding experience.

 

Garmin is arguably the best GPS company in the world, and their programmers really really know firmware. So it's a solid bet...but I don't see them developing the map expertise that Delorme has. So for my personal rating, they start off with a strike against them. I love my Garmin Quest, and surely expect to buy another Garmin autorouter whenever I'm ready to upgrade that.

 

Money is a minor factor for me. I'm into GPS enough now that I could imagine spending $500 for a device. But I also appreciate saving a hundred or two when I can make what a sacrifice of what I see as a minor feature.

 

One final word about the service: Garmin seems to be really great, too. I put them at just a notch below Delorme only because after being on the Delorme boards for a while, I feel that I have a personal relationship (of sorts) with some of their staff. I see Garmin as too large an operation to be able to cultivate that, although they seem to pull through on the important stuff.

 

If I were you, I'd take a spin with the PN-20 on the 30 day trial period. If you still have any misgivings, they'll take it back cheerfully. But I warn you that you might find giving up the maps to be too much of a compromise once you've tried 'em (OTOH, there are some people so frazzled by the nonstandard map interface that they can't get away fast enough. )

[+Jeff in Pa]

Embra,

 

How is the PN-20 for downloading the GPX files? How many characters will it accept and is it easy to do? I too have thrown the PN-20 into my original plan for a Colorado 300/60 CSX/Vista CSX... see what I mean, I can't make a clear decision...LOL

 

Thanks,

 

Jeff

[+TwoTruckers]

Personally if you can afford it, I would go with the Garmin Colorado 400T, It comes with preloaded Topo maps. And they load quickly.

 

The main reason I would take the Colorado 400T over the others is that it supports "Paperless" caching. You can put the GPX files you get from Groundspeak directly onto the unit and have cache info right there on the screen. And it [Colorado 400T] allows 1,000 waypoints (caches).

 

I currently do my paperless caching using a PDA. This new unit seems like it is a much easier entry level method for doing paperless caching.

 

Another nice feature is the wireless transfer of cache information between other Colorado users. A very useful feature if you cache with a group using similar units. This is a new feature no other units have.

[+Noscitare]

If I were you, I'd take a spin with the PN-20 on the 30 day trial period. If you still have any misgivings, they'll take it back cheerfully.

 

Thanks for the input. I think that I'm starting to lean more toward the PN-20. I'm beginning to think that there's really quite bit on the Colorado that I just plain will never use. For example, I don't anticipate using either Wherigo or the transfer of data from my GPSr to anyone else's. 3D view? Do you really need that for geocaching? I don't really think so.

 

But I do have a question for you about this "Moyoto" rechargeable battery which is the "only approved battery type" for the PN-20. I Googled "Moyoto" and came up with http://www.moyoto.com/english/ . At the top of this page it states: "WWW.MOYOTO.CN is under structuring, will come back to work on June 6 (D-Day) 2006". This doesn't instill in me much confidence in Moyoto.

 

What might you be able to tell me about this battery issue?

 

Thanks.

[+Noscitare]

The main reason I would take the Colorado 400T over the others is that it supports "Paperless" caching.

 

This is probably a question that only someone who has not yet gone geocaching would ask, so at the risk of appearing like a complete idiot, is this "paperless caching" thing really all that big a deal? I mean, when you go out you're already carrying a pack of some kind with you, correct? Is it really that big of a hassle to carry along a few additional sheets of paper? I've just got to be missing something here.

 

As for the data transfer, I don't currently know anyone else with the slightest interest in trying geocaching, so for the time being I'll be a solo operation.

 

Thanks for the reply. You folks are helping me make my decision. I'm getting closer and closer to hitting that "submit order" button at delorme.com.

[+Styk]

Is carrying a few sheets of paper a hassle? Well technically ....no, I suppose not. 10 or so, not bad, 20 beginning to need something to organize them. 50, need a binder. 100 or more, a bigger binder.

 

Now your carrying a binder around, walking in circles, muttering to yourself, think what you look like to non cachers. Next you start leaving the binder in the car so you don't look so suspicious, then you get stumped and have to return to the car, review the listing or worse, discover that you don't have that particular listing or it's an old printout and the coords were wrong and you have no idea that it's been corrected.

 

That's when you start to wish you has access to the latest info, quick, accurate, up to date and more importantly, complete coverage of the area your caching.

 

Not a stupid question at all. I don't think to many cachers start off paperless but experience is a great teacher. Many cachers remain dedicated to paper even after hundreds of finds, largely because the cost of a pda and the technological hurdles sometimes encountered getting them set up.

Edited January 16, 2008 by stickman756

[+TrailGators]

I know of two people that got PN-20s for Christmas and are sending them back because they said they were nearly as geocaching friendly as Garmins. Both people are getting the new Colorado.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Allow me to provide some answers:

 

1. Comparison to other GPSrs: I sense a lot of my Chevy is better than your Ford attitudes in a lot of the other threads and responses here. As I have only used the PN-20, I'll offer no comparisons. I'm familiar with a number of Embra's other posts (he does have direct knowledge of other GPSRs) and his resonses are quite reasonable in that they do not overstate the PN-20's capabilities; I'd put considerable stock in them.

 

2. Batteries: I am one of the few that have had some initial failures with the PN-20 OEM rechargeable Li-Ion battery pack. Their customer service replaced them cheerfully and quickly. I have one of another brand, Delkin RCR-V3, that also works. That pack is in the configuration of a pair of AAs. I also carry standard AAs and some rechargeable AAs (so much for flexibility).

 

3. Popularity: The PN-20 has only been out but a year now. Yes, there are many times more satisfied and avid users of other brands/models. From their forum, there are very few, percentage wise, adopters of the PN-20 that are unsatisfied. The great preponderance of these are due to unfulfilled expectations regarding in vehicle use while driving. No, these are not TomToms designed to give turn-by-turn voice guidance to a Big Mac or a Slurpy. I also have and in-dash, OEM GPS NAV unit with a 3" x 5" screen and voice guidance so I am qualified to make that comparison. I think that it is very unsafe to look at that little (comparatively) screen while freeway driving.

 

4. Maps: I don't need to handle the others to see the maps - those screenshots are prevalent. I agree that DeLorme has the best maps. OTHOH, geocaching is a very unintensive use of the maps as compared to other activities such as backpacking and back country 4WD exploring. When I'm within 100 feet of a cache, the maps are meaningless to me.

 

5. GPX file transfer and paperless caching: DeLorme is not all the way there yet, but as I understand it they are working on firmware updates to provide that. I download the GPX file for each cache to my PC and then open it in the DeLorme Topo 7 application that is included. With the cable connected, I then transfer the information from the PC to the PN-20. All the pertinent information (namely, coordinates) is there although there is some truncation of the descriptive verbage. Yes, I currently carry a small, spiral bound notepad for other notes and the hints in a pocket (like Colombo). No, I am not considering getting rid of my PN-20 and notepad for a unit with true paperless functionality.

 

6. Other physical characteristics: Again, most any GPSr costing more than $200 will be sufficient for geocaching. If you have well defined needs beyond geocaching or just want to have the best and most, than do look at the more upscale Garmins as others suggest as one of those may have more bells and whistles (as noted above, I'm not knowledgeable here).

 

7. Anything else?

Edited January 16, 2008 by CowboyPapa

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Oh yeah, how quicky I forget:

 

7. Accuracy: Regarding the three mentioned initially, the DeLorme PN-20, the Garmin 60CSx and the Garmin Vista HCx, I expect that all have sufficient accuracy for geocaching. Any claim that one is inferior in comparion ot the other is extremely dubious. How would one know? Have all three on a side-by-side test? Even then, how would the errant one(s) be identified? So I'll respond to that (the accuracy issue) in this fashion. Every cache that I've found is tangible corroboration of my PN-20 with respect to others. Those that I haven't found weren't found due to a lack of accuracy. For example, on one magnificently camo'd cache, in plain sight, required three attempts and on the third the inspiriation enveloped me. It was not a question that my PN-20 had regained its accuracy on the third visit.

[+Noscitare]

I know of two people that got PN-20s for Christmas and are sending them back because they said they were nearly as geocaching friendly as Garmins. Both people are getting the new Colorado.

Any idea as to specifically what features they might've felt were lacking in the PN-20 which were fulfilled by Garmins?

[+TwoTruckers]

The main reason I would take the Colorado 400T over the others is that it supports "Paperless" caching.

 

This is probably a question that only someone who has not yet gone geocaching would ask, so at the risk of appearing like a complete idiot, is this "paperless caching" thing really all that big a deal? I mean, when you go out you're already carrying a pack of some kind with you, correct? Is it really that big of a hassle to carry along a few additional sheets of paper? I've just got to be missing something here.

 

As for the data transfer, I don't currently know anyone else with the slightest interest in trying geocaching, so for the time being I'll be a solo operation.

 

Thanks for the reply. You folks are helping me make my decision. I'm getting closer and closer to hitting that "submit order" button at delorme.com.

 

Well when you go out and do a cache run of over 120 in one day you can certainly appreciate being paperless. Time saved out in the field, not to mention time and resources to print all the cache pages out. My Treo 700P and CacheMate handle all of the descriptions and I am able to mark the caches as found both on the Treo and on my 60CSX and find the next closest cache. [A feature prominently lacking on the Delorme].

 

Don't get me wrong the Delorme unit is a nice feature packed unit with decent enough maps. For power cachers not being able to mark your finds is a severe drawback in my opinion.

[+TrailGators]

I know of two people that got PN-20s for Christmas and are sending them back because they said they were nearly as geocaching friendly as Garmins. Both people are getting the new Colorado.

Any idea as to specifically what features they might've felt were lacking in the PN-20 which were fulfilled by Garmins?

They basically said that it worked a lot differently than the Garmin and was harder to use for what they wanted to do. One specific thing I remember that you can't search for nearest geocaches. It only lets you search by name in alphabetical order.

[+Frodo_Underhill]

I know of two people that got PN-20s for Christmas and are sending them back because they said they were nearly as geocaching friendly as Garmins. Both people are getting the new Colorado.

Any idea as to specifically what features they might've felt were lacking in the PN-20 which were fulfilled by Garmins?

They basically said that it worked a lot differently than the Garmin and was harder to use for what they wanted to do. One specific thing I remember that you can't search for nearest geocaches. It only lets you search by name in alphabetical order.

 

You can search for the nearest geocache on a PN-20. I do it all the time with mine. You can toggle between "Find Near Map Center" and "Find by Name" on the "Find" menu.

 

Read the manual, included with GPS. This unit is a bit different than the Maggies I have been using but once you work with it for a while you will love it for the maps and the responsiveness of the unit.

[+TrailGators]

I know of two people that got PN-20s for Christmas and are sending them back because they said they were nearly as geocaching friendly as Garmins. Both people are getting the new Colorado.

Any idea as to specifically what features they might've felt were lacking in the PN-20 which were fulfilled by Garmins?

They basically said that it worked a lot differently than the Garmin and was harder to use for what they wanted to do. One specific thing I remember that you can't search for nearest geocaches. It only lets you search by name in alphabetical order.

 

You can search for the nearest geocache on a PN-20. I do it all the time with mine. You can toggle between "Find Near Map Center" and "Find by Name" on the "Find" menu.

 

Read the manual, included with GPS. This unit is a bit different than the Maggies I have been using but once you work with it for a while you will love it for the maps and the responsiveness of the unit.

He said that it wouldn't give you a list of nearest geocaches like the Garmins do. There were some other things too but I can't remember what they were. Edited January 16, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Team CowboyPapa]

I know of two people that got PN-20s for Christmas and are sending them back because they said they were nearly as geocaching friendly as Garmins. Both people are getting the new Colorado.

Any idea as to specifically what features they might've felt were lacking in the PN-20 which were fulfilled by Garmins?

They basically said that it worked a lot differently than the Garmin and was harder to use for what they wanted to do. One specific thing I remember that you can't search for nearest geocaches. It only lets you search by name in alphabetical order.

This is the sort of answer that you get when one has never touched the subject personally.

Hearsay is what they term it in a court of law, and always discredited.

 

Now, with my PN-20 in my left hand as I one hand type with my right, do you doubt that, with my current position aquired and in the center of my screen, successive Zoom Outs will reveal the closest cache, if not already displayed in the default, or current, zoom? I mean how complicated is this? Not exactly rocket science.

 

But that's OK, not to feel remorse over the misrepresentation. It's almost like proving the negative, defining that which something can't do when it can do numerous things, which is impossible in and of itself.

[+TrailGators]

I know of two people that got PN-20s for Christmas and are sending them back because they said they were nearly as geocaching friendly as Garmins. Both people are getting the new Colorado.

Any idea as to specifically what features they might've felt were lacking in the PN-20 which were fulfilled by Garmins?

They basically said that it worked a lot differently than the Garmin and was harder to use for what they wanted to do. One specific thing I remember that you can't search for nearest geocaches. It only lets you search by name in alphabetical order.

This is the sort of answer that you get when one has never touched the subject personally.

Hearsay is what they term it in a court of law, and always discredited.

 

Now, with my PN-20 in my left hand as I one hand type with my right, do you doubt that, with my current position aquired and in the center of my screen, successive Zoom Outs will reveal the closest cache, if not already displayed in the default, or current, zoom? I mean how complicated is this? Not exactly rocket science.

 

But that's OK, not to feel remorse over the misrepresentation. It's almost like proving the negative, defining that which something can't do when it can do numerous things, which is impossible in and of itself.

It's only two people anyhow. I "personally" saw the Colorado at the Vegas event and it is very impressive!

 

Edit: Not being able to view nearest caches in a list is a disadvantage. We code caches out here so doing it that way makes is much easier to search for certain cache types or terrain ratings.

Edited January 16, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Noscitare]

Well when you go out and do a cache run of over 120 in one day you can certainly appreciate being paperless.

Wow. 120 in a day???

I'm looking at geocaching as a way to add a little bit of adventure to my spring and summer bike riding.

I'm not looking for a second job.

 

Seriously? 120 in a day? What kind of an area do you cover? I'd think that at that rate you'd run out of caches in your area pretty darned quick and start having to go further and further afield to enjoy the activity.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

Don't get me wrong the Delorme unit is a nice feature packed unit with decent enough maps. For power cachers not being able to mark your finds is a severe drawback in my opinion.

This I can understand. Previously, I never done more than four or five a day, and then I'm back here to delete those found and load into my PN-20 the next several and add a few written notes. So currently, it is no big detriment to me.

 

OTOH, I do look forward to them adding the paperless functionality and then if I were to go on a power outing, I can see it as an substantial advantage.

[+TrailGators]

Well when you go out and do a cache run of over 120 in one day you can certainly appreciate being paperless.

Wow. 120 in a day???

I'm looking at geocaching as a way to add a little bit of adventure to my spring and summer bike riding.

I'm not looking for a second job.

 

Seriously? 120 in a day? What kind of an area do you cover? I'd think that at that rate you'd run out of caches in your area pretty darned quick and start having to go further and further afield to enjoy the activity.

 

Areas that you can do 120/day, typically have thousands of caches. It's like shooting fish in a barrel in some areas.

[+TrailGators]

 

Don't get me wrong the Delorme unit is a nice feature packed unit with decent enough maps. For power cachers not being able to mark your finds is a severe drawback in my opinion.

This I can understand. Previously, I never done more than four or five a day, and then I'm back here to delete those found and load into my PN-20 the next several and add a few written notes. So currently, it is no big detriment to me.

 

OTOH, I do look forward to them adding the paperless functionality and then if I were to go on a power outing, I can see it as an substantial advantage.

The Colorado is fully paperless. Plus it has the new Wherigo game built in. Edited January 16, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Team CowboyPapa]

It's only two people anyhow. I "personally" saw the Colorado at the Vegas event and it is very impressive!

Yeah, I agree, two a statistically significant sample does not make. Furthermore, and this I do not know as a fact, but how long did those two have it to know what they really had? I suspect, and only suspect, not very long. Kinda' like a test ride in a new car. They're dying to get you in there, but they won't let you take 'er home.

 

Hey, and personally saw at an event with accompanying descriptive material is credible. I wish that I would have been there.

Edited January 16, 2008 by CowboyPapa

[+TrailGators]

Hey, and personally saw at an event with accompanying descriptive material is credible. I wish that I would have been there.

There are other Colorado/Wherigo demo events being planned. Maybe they'll come down to LA. There is an event coming up in the Bay area.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Come to think of it not being able to mark finds in geocaching mode was also one of his issues. The Colorado is fully paperless. Plus it has the new Wherigo game built in.

 

You know, this may be another thing that he just didn't keep it long enough to find out how to do such. But, then again, coming in second hand, I'm not sure what you are saying that he was saying by not marking finds.

 

So, I'll just have to guess at the issue and answer the guess, OK? I use, and assume that other do likewise, use the closed lid treasure chest symbol for "to be found" geocaches on my PN-20. After a find, it is a few keystrokes to change the symbol to an open lid treasure chest.

 

Does that seem to be a good stab at his couldn't do?

 

Whew!

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Hey, and personally saw at an event with accompanying descriptive material is credible. I wish that I would have been there.

There are other Colorado/Wherigo demo events being planned. Maybe they'll come down to LA. There is an event coming up in the Bay area.

Hey TrailGator, no Bay - no LA - no Way! But Escondido - OK! Borrego Springs - cool ones are on me!

[+TrailGators]

Hey, and personally saw at an event with accompanying descriptive material is credible. I wish that I would have been there.

There are other Colorado/Wherigo demo events being planned. Maybe they'll come down to LA. There is an event coming up in the Bay area.

Hey TrailGator, no Bay - no LA - no Way! But Escondido - OK! Borrego Springs - cool ones are on me!

Sounds good! We can drown our sorrows over ABDSP....

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Sounds good! We can drown our sorrows over ABDSP....

Yeah, roger that.

We put one down there two months ago:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ad-a6c64a9692c1

But it is just outside the park as you are going north out of town up Coyote Canyon, so we're OK.

 

There's another one

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...af-041afb44fa5c

farther up the canyon and in the park that we tried for once, but didn't make it.

I'd like to get in my next time there and hopefully before it's removed.

If the ranger wants me to remove it, I'll do that as a good citizen.

[+TrailGators]

Sounds good! We can drown our sorrows over ABDSP....

Yeah, roger that.

We put one down there two months ago:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ad-a6c64a9692c1

But it is just outside the park as you are going north out of town up Coyote Canyon, so we're OK.

 

There's another one

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...af-041afb44fa5c

farther up the canyon and in the park that we tried for once, but didn't make it.

I'd like to get in my next time there and hopefully before it's removed.

If the ranger wants me to remove it, I'll do that as a good citizen.

I would email the cache owner and ask them first....

[+Team DeLorme]

nice, I am going through the same shopping considerations. GarminMaps60csx is my frontrunner if for no other reason than to have a Garmin for direct downloads from Geocaching.com but the DeLorme's notes will hold 200 characters (sooon to be 800) so paperless would work nicely in 1 device. I also would like the hear from people who have owned Garmins and the DeLorme and see how the accuracy compares. I believe there are some differences between the Garmins and the Magellans.

 

We've released a beta version of our next firmware which delivers the 800 character limit for cache information. Send me an e-mail if you have any specific questions... the PN-20 users that help out on this forum have done a nice job of sorting out the comments here too. I can confirm that we do provide the basics... searching for the closest geocache... changing the symbol from Cache to Cache Found... There's even more information on the DeLorme forum... forum.delorme.com.

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

[+embra]

Come to think of it not being able to mark finds in geocaching mode was also one of his issues. The Colorado is fully paperless. Plus it has the new Wherigo game built in.

<snip>

 

After a find, it is a few keystrokes to change the symbol to an open lid treasure chest.

As someone who's used both the PN-20 and a couple of [older] Garmin models, I don't think there's any denying that the higher-end Garmin handhelds are the best GPS's available--if map quality isn't a high priority. They've been making them a long time, they've refined the firmware...they're just well thought-out and well-executed creations. Delorme's first handheld, about to celebrate its first birthday, will feel a little clunky in comparison. I think especially if someone is used to Garmin firmware, the comparison would likely be heightened. Most power cachers will prefer Garmin at this point.

 

The PN-20 is fine for those doing a dozen caches at a time, and is capable of going after a hundred. But it will involve more button pushing and some workarounds because it hasn't yet been fully implemented for geocaching. Delome staff go geocaching, too; they will yet incorporate user feedback and their own experience and I expect it will be comparable to Garmins in this regard someday...but this day is not yet here. The PN-20 will most satisfy someone who is able to take advantage of the detailed imagery in other outdoor uses as well as geocaching.

 

Looks like there's been a lot of talk, and it appears that most or all of the PN-20 questions were answered. I'll make a review and see if there's anything I can add.

[+embra]

How is the PN-20 for downloading the GPX files? How many characters will it accept and is it easy to do? I too have thrown the PN-20 into my original plan for a Colorado 300/60 CSX/Vista CSX... see what I mean, I can't make a clear decision...LOL

You can send gpx or loc files directly into Topo7, and thence to the GPS (AFAIK, you *have* to use T7 to transfer to GPS). I like to use GSAK to select which caches to bundle together, so my data flow is GSAK to T7 to PN-20.

 

The current firmware allows 200 characters in the comment field, but I just loaded the next firmware beta that appears to allow 800. A drawback here is that you can only read two lines of the comment at a time, so it requires some scrolling to get all the way through. Also, 800 characters still is not enough for a cache description of moderate to long length.

[+embra]

But I do have a question for you about this "Moyoto" rechargeable battery which is the "only approved battery type" for the PN-20. I Googled "Moyoto" and came up with http://www.moyoto.com/english/ . At the top of this page it states: "WWW.MOYOTO.CN is under structuring, will come back to work on June 6 (D-Day) 2006". This doesn't instill in me much confidence in Moyoto.

 

What might you be able to tell me about this battery issue?

IIRC, Delorme recommended this particular battery because they calibrated the remaining power indicator to its discharge curve. Other users have purchased standard CR-V3 battery packs from other manufacturers and used them successfully. One thing about these packs, though (both the moyoto and others) is that they are a little larger than alkaline AAs, so they make for a pretty tight fit.

 

As CowboyPapa said, they seemed to have a lot of duds when the PN-20 first came out. Delorme replaced them (I only needed one switch, CowboyPapa had the worst luck on those that I know of), and since then I think the battery problems have pretty much gone away. I use the rechargeable Li-ion most of the time, only using rechargeable Ni-MHs as backup.

[+Paul_Aris]

Just a thought but if you are buying it mainly for geocaches why would you pick a unit that is know for having good maps. I would pick a unit that I could load topo maps on but had reallly good cacheing fuctions.

 

I have Garmin Mapsource topo on my GPS and I have yet to get lost with it. I previewed topo 2008 and it has improved since the version I have. There are some of the most remote 2 tracks up by my cabin that show up on this map complete with street names. I don't know how you get any better than that.

[+TrailGators]

Just a thought but if you are buying it mainly for geocaches why would you pick a unit that is know for having good maps. I would pick a unit that I could load topo maps on but had reallly good caching fuctions.

This is the geocaching forum....

 

I agree that certain GPSs work better in certain applications. It seems like the PN-20 would be a fine companion to hikers needing detailed topos and the occasional geocache. However a GPS that can do this as well as meeting the needs of a larger variety of geocachers will expand it's market. Versatility is something that a lot of people look for in a GPS because some days you may be searching for urban caches. Also some days you may be using your GPS to navigate when you travel.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Sounds good! We can drown our sorrows over ABDSP....

Yeah, roger that.

We put one down there two months ago:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ad-a6c64a9692c1

But it is just outside the park as you are going north out of town up Coyote Canyon, so we're OK.

 

There's another one

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...af-041afb44fa5c

farther up the canyon and in the park that we tried for once, but didn't make it.

I'd like to get in my next time there and hopefully before it's removed.

If the ranger wants me to remove it, I'll do that as a good citizen.

I would email the cache owner and ask them first....

Good tip, TG, I'll do that before I go down next time. We usually make a weekend trip each fall and spring.

Edited January 16, 2008 by CowboyPapa

[+Team CowboyPapa]

But I do have a question for you about this "Moyoto" rechargeable battery which is the "only approved battery type" for the PN-20. I Googled "Moyoto" and came up with http://www.moyoto.com/english/ . At the top of this page it states: "WWW.MOYOTO.CN is under structuring, will come back to work on June 6 (D-Day) 2006". This doesn't instill in me much confidence in Moyoto.

 

What might you be able to tell me about this battery issue?

IIRC, Delorme recommended this particular battery because they calibrated the remaining power indicator to its discharge curve. Other users have purchased standard CR-V3 battery packs from other manufacturers and used them successfully. One thing about these packs, though (both the moyoto and others) is that they are a little larger than alkaline AAs, so they make for a pretty tight fit.

 

As CowboyPapa said, they seemed to have a lot of duds when the PN-20 first came out. Delorme replaced them (I only needed one switch, CowboyPapa had the worst luck on those that I know of), and since then I think the battery problems have pretty much gone away. I use the rechargeable Li-ion most of the time, only using rechargeable Ni-MHs as backup.

Exactly as Embra says, due to the calibration, or lack thereof for the aftermarket, the aftermarket always shows way down after a full charge cycle, but then it will last for hours. I just have to ignore it and keep going and it's OK.

[+Noscitare]

I'd like to thank all of you folks for your opinions. The PN-20 sounds like a wonderful unit but I'm currently wondering if it's not (with it's exceptional maps) geared more towards the serious backwoodsman rather than the recreational geocacher. Might anyone have any thoughts on that?

 

One thing that concerns me about the Colorado is that it might end up having problems similar to those that the Triton 2000 is currently having -- a lot of slick new features that haven't been adequately tested prior to release.

 

All of the opinions in this (and other) threads make valid points and while they've helped me see more clearly the +'s and -'s of the two units, I still can't come to a decision.

 

I think that, in the end, this is literally going to end up being decided by the toss of a coin.

 

Again, thanks to all.

[+benjamin921]

The PN-20 will do just fine for geocaching. I go totally paperless with it and now with the 800 character limit, it will be even better. This isn't a unit that if only gets used in the deep back woods will it magically have all kinds of new features. What works for the casual geocacher will jsut work that much better for the deep woods hiker and the like.

[+elmuyloco5]

 

The Colorado is fully paperless. Plus it has the new Wherigo game built in.

 

I just thought I should point out that the Garmin is not FULLY paperless. It's more like, less paper caching. When compared to a PDA (what others are using to paperlessly cache) the Garmin falls short. It does not have adequate space to record down data such as answers to a puzzle or multi while out caching, nor does it have the ability to create a text log like a PDA and programs like Cachemate do. The Garmin does have a small box for notes on the Waypoint edit screen that might allow for a few words to entered, but nothing like a PDA will. Like I said, it's less paper, but not fully paperless.

 

Secondly, when considering a Garmin for Wherigo, it's important to remember that the Garmin Colorado does not have sound other than beeps. There is no speaker or headphone jack. This will limit the number of cartridges that you can do on Wherigo as an audio component will be present with some. The reigning argument in favor of Garmins is that placing a speaker would inhibit the waterproof rating. However, the Triton has a voice recorder and playback available with the same waterproof rating. Not to mention, there are several MP3 players on the market designed for swimmers to use underwater. For a product advertising it's versatility towards Wherigo, it sure falls short of all the necessary equipment. Garmin really goofed up with that one.

 

The PN-20 looks like a better GPS for the money, IMHO. It was what we were going to buy until we decided to combine all of our equipment into one unit and purchase a Pocket PC instead.

[+Noscitare]

Well, I've made my decision and taken the plunge.

 

But rather than leaving it up to the toss of a coin I went with my gut and intuition, both of which were telling me to go with the......

 

DeLorme Earthmate GPS PN-20.

 

And I got the bicycle mount to go along with it.

 

Once again, thanks to all for your input.

[+TrailGators]

 

The Colorado is fully paperless. Plus it has the new Wherigo game built in.

I just thought I should point out that the Garmin is not FULLY paperless. It's more like, less paper caching. When compared to a PDA (what others are using to paperlessly cache) the Garmin falls short. It does not have adequate space to record down data such as answers to a puzzle or multi while out caching, nor does it have the ability to create a text log like a PDA and programs like Cachemate do. The Garmin does have a small box for notes on the Waypoint edit screen that might allow for a few words to entered, but nothing like a PDA will. Like I said, it's less paper, but not fully paperless.

What I meant is that you can cache with just the GPS because the cache description, hints and past logs are all there. I carry a little paper notepad to jot things down like coin numbers and to have some extra paper handy if a cache needs some. I guess some people want to do everything and I can understand that. If that is the case then you are better off carrying a separate Palm/Pocket PC/ Like I said before it really depends on your caching style as to which options are best.

[+benjamin921]

Well, I've made my decision and taken the plunge.

 

But rather than leaving it up to the toss of a coin I went with my gut and intuition, both of which were telling me to go with the......

 

DeLorme Earthmate GPS PN-20.

 

And I got the bicycle mount to go along with it.

 

Once again, thanks to all for your input.

Great choice. The bike mount is super secure too!

[+elmuyloco5]

What I meant is that you can cache with just the GPS because the cache description, hints and past logs are all there. I carry a little paper notepad to jot things down like coin numbers and to have some extra paper handy if a cache needs some. I guess some people want to do everything and I can understand that. If that is the case then you are better off carrying a separate Palm/Pocket PC/ Like I said before it really depends on your caching style as to which options are best.

Yeah, I agree. I didn't mean anything bad towards what you said about it. I only mentioned the point because some people don't realize that it doesn't give you an area to enter info. Since the OP had been using a PDA, I wanted to make sure that they understood that point. For us, it came down to the price. We could justify paying $600 if the Colorado would allow us to sell our PDA and our TomTom. But, it just can't replace what those can do. The PN-20 is a great machine for mapping, but didn't give us the other capabilities. SO, we decided on a PPC because it could do all of it. But, our option isn't for everyone either.

 

I also mentioned the sound issue because alot of people aren't realizing it either. I'll admit, it didn't cross my mind when I was thinking of the Colorado. I happened across the info in the Wherigo threads and thought, well crud, it doesn't make it fully Wherigo capable either. It's really not worth the money for us. The Colorado is overpriced for it's functionality. Everyone's bashing the Triton for it's firmware issues right now (and don't get me wrong, we took two separate units back with issues), but if you think about it, the firmware can be fixed and it will function as it was advertised to. You can't add a speaker with firmware. The Colorado will never be all that it advertises.

 

The PN-20 is a very capable GPSr with outstanding mapping abilities for a whole lot less. I think the OP made a good choice.

Edited January 16, 2008 by elmuyloco5

[+TrailGators]

What I meant is that you can cache with just the GPS because the cache description, hints and past logs are all there. I carry a little paper notepad to jot things down like coin numbers and to have some extra paper handy if a cache needs some. I guess some people want to do everything and I can understand that. If that is the case then you are better off carrying a separate Palm/Pocket PC/ Like I said before it really depends on your caching style as to which options are best.

Yeah, I agree. I didn't mean anything bad towards what you said about it. I only mentioned the point because some people don't realize that it doesn't give you an area to enter info. Since the OP had been using a PDA, I wanted to make sure that they understood that point. For us, it came down to the price. We could justify paying $600 if the Colorado would allow us to sell our PDA and our TomTom. But, it just can't replace what those can do. The PN-20 is a great machine for mapping, but didn't give us the other capabilities. SO, we decided on a PPC because it could do all of it. But, our option isn't for everyone either.

 

I also mentioned the sound issue because alot of people aren't realizing it either. I'll admit, it didn't cross my mind when I was thinking of the Colorado. I happened across the info in the Wherigo threads and thought, well crud, it doesn't make it fully Wherigo capable either. It's really not worth the money for us. The Colorado is overpriced for it's functionality. Everyone's bashing the Triton for it's firmware issues right now (and don't get me wrong, we took two separate units back with issues), but if you think about it, the firmware can be fixed and it will function as it was advertised to. You can't add a speaker with firmware. The Colorado will never be all that it advertises.

 

The PN-20 is a very capable GPSr with outstanding mapping abilities for a whole lot less. I think the OP made a good choice.

I agree that the Colorado is too expensive. I'd rather play Wherigo on a PS so maybe that will be an option in the future.