Stay on the Trail

[+egami]

Both replies, purely your opinion. I did demonstrate it. You just refuse to accept it...again, your opinion.

 

Obviously, you don't respect that some individuals would like to avoid confrontation with the cache owner. Not surprising. Similarly to our other difference...I will respect property owners by asking permission to place caches first, you won't.

Edited January 20, 2008 by egami

[+Dgwphotos]

I guess I come from a different era...

 

If there is a sign that says stay on the trail I stay on the trail.

 

There is another nearby Park Cougar Mountain where there is a stay on trail policy..

 

Park users should always stay on the trail system for their safety. Like other portions of eastern King County where historical mining operations occurred, Cougar Mountain has had mineshaft and mine vent re-openings through the years. Steep inclines and poisonous gas from the mines could lead to serious injuries or death.

 

I do however touch walls that say "Wet Paint"

 

That's another park system. This one has grassy areas that don't seem to be areas of concern, so they allowed an exception to a general rule created to protect something else. The something else apparently being non grassy. If you could complete an old mine shaft survey and fill them in (likely a volunteer project where...you would be allowed to go off trail) odds are you may be able to get some use of the non trail parts of the other park.

 

You are of course free to stay on the trail.

 

Both Parks are part of the same park system. Cougar Mountain is a special case where there were a number of mines. The original mine owners had a policy of not mining closer than 200 feet to the surface. Later independent miners came along and mined closer to the surface, up to the tree roots. As a result, there is a large number of sink holes and a high potential for future development of more sink holes.

 

These signs can be found all over the park.

 

I regard mowed grass areas as a trail.

[+Team Cotati]

I guess I come from a different era...

 

If there is a sign that says stay on the trail I stay on the trail.

 

There is another nearby Park Cougar Mountain where there is a stay on trail policy..

 

Park users should always stay on the trail system for their safety. Like other portions of eastern King County where historical mining operations occurred, Cougar Mountain has had mineshaft and mine vent re-openings through the years. Steep inclines and poisonous gas from the mines could lead to serious injuries or death.

 

I do however touch walls that say "Wet Paint"

 

That's another park system. This one has grassy areas that don't seem to be areas of concern, so they allowed an exception to a general rule created to protect something else. The something else apparently being non grassy. If you could complete an old mine shaft survey and fill them in (likely a volunteer project where...you would be allowed to go off trail) odds are you may be able to get some use of the non trail parts of the other park.

 

You are of course free to stay on the trail.

 

Both Parks are part of the same park system. Cougar Mountain is a special case where there were a number of mines. The original mine owners had a policy of not mining closer than 200 feet to the surface. Later independent miners came along and mined closer to the surface, up to the tree roots. As a result, there is a large number of sink holes and a high potential for future development of more sink holes.

 

These signs can be found all over the park.

 

I regard mowed grass areas as a trail.

 

"I regard mowed grass areas as a trail." Hopefully you are the one person who holds such a belief.

[+sbell111]

I guess I come from a different era...

 

If there is a sign that says stay on the trail I stay on the trail.

 

There is another nearby Park Cougar Mountain where there is a stay on trail policy..

 

Park users should always stay on the trail system for their safety. Like other portions of eastern King County where historical mining operations occurred, Cougar Mountain has had mineshaft and mine vent re-openings through the years. Steep inclines and poisonous gas from the mines could lead to serious injuries or death.

 

I do however touch walls that say "Wet Paint"

That's another park system. This one has grassy areas that don't seem to be areas of concern, so they allowed an exception to a general rule created to protect something else. The something else apparently being non grassy. If you could complete an old mine shaft survey and fill them in (likely a volunteer project where...you would be allowed to go off trail) odds are you may be able to get some use of the non trail parts of the other park.

 

You are of course free to stay on the trail.

Both Parks are part of the same park system. Cougar Mountain is a special case where there were a number of mines. The original mine owners had a policy of not mining closer than 200 feet to the surface. Later independent miners came along and mined closer to the surface, up to the tree roots. As a result, there is a large number of sink holes and a high potential for future development of more sink holes.

 

<SNIP>These signs[/url] can be found all over the park.

 

I regard mowed grass areas as a trail.

"I regard mowed grass areas as a trail." Hopefully you are the one person who holds such a belief.

The person who gave permission for the cache in question also apparently felt this way.

 

BTW, how many times are you going to flip from one side of this debate to the other. It's like you're playing tennis by yourself.

[mehxxmay]

There is a traditional cache placed in a park near me, the area is signed in a number of spots to "Stay on Trail." One of the waypoints for this cache is at least 30ft off the gravel trail. The other waypoint is at least 80ft off the gravel trail. Cache owner says they have permission from the grounds keeper for these caches as long as you stay on the grassy areas.

 

My question is, should we be encouraging cachers to break park rules like this?

 

Additional information: This is a small (About 8 acres) fairly manicured park.

 

 

Say your loooking for your cat,or your pet snake

[mehxxmay]

There is a traditional cache placed in a park near me, the area is signed in a number of spots to "Stay on Trail." One of the waypoints for this cache is at least 30ft off the gravel trail. The other waypoint is at least 80ft off the gravel trail. Cache owner says they have permission from the grounds keeper for these caches as long as you stay on the grassy areas.

 

My question is, should we be encouraging cachers to break park rules like this?

 

Additional information: This is a small (About 8 acres) fairly manicured park.

 

 

Say your loooking for your cat,or your pet snake

[+Confucius' Cat]

There is a traditional cache placed in a park near me, the area is signed in a number of spots to "Stay on Trail." One of the waypoints for this cache is at least 30ft off the gravel trail. The other waypoint is at least 80ft off the gravel trail. Cache owner says they have permission from the grounds keeper for these caches as long as you stay on the grassy areas.

 

My question is, should we be encouraging cachers to break park rules like this?

 

Additional information: This is a small (About 8 acres) fairly manicured park.

 

 

Say your loooking for your cat,or your pet snake

There you go. A good lie can fix anything.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

 

I regard mowed grass areas as a trail.

 

"I regard mowed grass areas as a trail." Hopefully you are the one person who holds such a belief.

 

You would need to understand the concept. A Trail protects portions of the park that are sensitive to the traffic. Mowed grass tends not to be sensitive else they would not use it for recreational parks in most towns. The parking area also isn't the trail.

 

Most reasonable people don't need to be told they are allowed to step off the trail to use the bathroom, park, and sit at the picnic table. There are a lot of cachers though who just don't seem to get it and post a lot about non issues as if chicken little was there middle name. Hopefully you aren't that person.

[+Lightning Jeff]

I have no reason to believe that the 'groundskeeper' who originally gave permission didn't have the authority to do so. Legally, one could easily argue that since he is an employee of the organization and he gave permission for the organization, then the permission is valid until it is revoked.

I know I'm late to this discussion, but I thought it important to correct this misstatement of the law. Public employees are not deemed to have whatever authority they purport to exercise. Exactly the opposite: Public employees have only that authority granted to them by the law applicable to their agency, and those interacting with a public employee are deemed to know the legal limits of the public employee's authority, even if the public employee himself is ignorant in that regard. The guy who cuts the grass and picks up the trash may think that he has authority to waive a posted a rule, but if he doesn't - which is likely - then the rule has not been waived, and the cache is in violation of the rule, period.

 

I agree that a cache that requires searchers to violate a clearly posted prohibition should be archived for the protection of our activity.

[+Confucius' Cat]

I agree that a cache that requires searchers to violate a clearly posted prohibition should be archived for the protection of our activity.

Well, since as I earlier pointed out, pretty much ALL parks with established trails somewhere say, "stay on trail," there go all the caches in parks with established trails then.

 

Well at least we can still do LPCs- but most of those are on private property without permission.

 

Our activity is thus protected.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Obviously, you don't respect that some individuals would like to avoid confrontation with the cache owner....Similarly to our other difference...I will respect property owners by asking permission to place caches first, you won't.

Why would I respect that some individuals refuse to talk to me about my cache? Getting a middle man involved when it's not needed only clouds the issue. Would you ask a reviewer to contact the property owner to get you your placement permission because you don't want a confrontation? You may not see the two as the same but they are. The cache owner is the final authority on the cache, just as the land manager/owner is the final authority for cache permission on their property.

[+FireRef]

Must be something unique to some areas of the country - in 3 states, I've never been in a park where off trail wandering has been prohibited... Why would they do this?

[+Team Cotati]

Must be something unique to some areas of the country - in 3 states, I've never been in a park where off trail wandering has been prohibited... Why would they do this?

 

Would those be state parks? In which states?

Edited January 27, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+Team Cotati]

...

 

I regard mowed grass areas as a trail.

 

"I regard mowed grass areas as a trail." Hopefully you are the one person who holds such a belief.

 

You would need to understand the concept. A Trail protects portions of the park that are sensitive to the traffic. Mowed grass tends not to be sensitive else they would not use it for recreational parks in most towns. The parking area also isn't the trail.

 

Most reasonable people don't need to be told they are allowed to step off the trail to use the bathroom, park, and sit at the picnic table. There are a lot of cachers though who just don't seem to get it and post a lot about non issues as if chicken little was there middle name. Hopefully you aren't that person.

 

You've just got to wonder about someone who can't differentiate between the manicured lawn area's in parks which are specifically designed for various types of game, sporting play and picnicking and a trail or path that leads visitors between specific points away from those areas.

 

And oh yeah, a parking lot.

 

Astounding.

Edited January 27, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+FireRef]

Must be something unique to some areas of the country - in 3 states, I've never been in a park where off trail wandering has been prohibited... Why would they do this?

 

Would those be state parks? In which states?

 

PA, NY, OH

 

Allegany State Park in NY and Preque Isle State Park in PA are the two main ones I am thinking of.

[+Team Cotati]

Must be something unique to some areas of the country - in 3 states, I've never been in a park where off trail wandering has been prohibited... Why would they do this?

 

Would those be state parks? In which states?

 

PA, NY, OH

 

Allegany State Park in NY and Preque Isle State Park in PA are the two main ones I am thinking of.

 

So that we are crystal clear, are you stating that two parks have no off-trail prohibitions? Or are you implying that all state parks in those states have no off-trail prohibitions? Or are you saying that you haven't a clue in that regard?

Edited January 27, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+FireRef]

 

So that we are crystal clear, are you stating that two parks have no off-trail prohibitions? Or are you implying that all state parks in those states have no off-trail prohibitions? Or are you saying that you haven't a clue in that regard?

 

I don't believe we can be crystal clear, considering many of your replies to my posts. I am saying that I am not aware of any off trail restrictions in my years of usage of these specific parks, and have not come across any signage indicating that people may not go off trail. The most specific I can think of is related to not parking on the grass on the side of the road - but no restrictions I am aware of in terms of hiking or biking off trail.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Must be something unique to some areas of the country - in 3 states, I've never been in a park where off trail wandering has been prohibited... Why would they do this?

It probably is more common in some areas than in others.

 

"Why?" is a good question. Different parks cite different reasons... personal safety, preservation of sensitive areas, perhaps "just because."

 

I am sure there are parks that do not have any "off trail" statements or posting but my experience is quite the opposite of yours as I have encountered a LOT of them.

 

A few examples:

 

Kentucky State parks (Cumberland Falls) Look under "for your safety"

 

Indiana State park site map (typical) Big bold green letters center of page.

 

I was itching to prove you wrong by linking to your own state but I did not find such verbiage in a quick Googling. I would still bet it is there in many parks though if you look at the right publication such as a park facilities map obtained at the park gatehouse.

 

I could not find any consumer oriented "rules and regulations" publications in either the PA or OH web sites. The PA site has a listing of the state statutes regarding the state parks but this is not the typical brochure that is handed out to visitors at a park.

 

I have personal experience with one Ohio county near Cleveland that seems to be particularly picky about their trails, to the point of threatening arrest and fines. (Yet this same county issues permits for mushroom hunting off trail.)

[+FireRef]

Must be something unique to some areas of the country - in 3 states, I've never been in a park where off trail wandering has been prohibited... Why would they do this?

It probably is more common in some areas than in others.

 

"Why?" is a good question. Different parks cite different reasons... personal safety, preservation of sensitive areas, perhaps "just because."

 

I am sure there are parks that do not have any "off trail" statements or posting but my experience is quite the opposite of yours as I have encountered a LOT of them.

 

A few examples:

 

Kentucky State parks (Cumberland Falls) Look under "for your safety"

 

Indiana State park site map (typical) Big bold green letters center of page.

 

I was itching to prove you wrong by linking to your own state but I did not find such verbiage in a quick Googling. I would still bet it is there in many parks though if you look at the right publication such as a park facilities map obtained at the park gatehouse.

 

I could not find any consumer oriented "rules and regulations" publications in either the PA or OH web sites. The PA site has a listing of the state statutes regarding the state parks but this is not the typical brochure that is handed out to visitors at a park.

 

I have personal experience with one Ohio county near Cleveland that seems to be particularly picky about their trails, to the point of threatening arrest and fines. (Yet this same county issues permits for mushroom hunting off trail.)

 

I must say I am honestly impressed you actually did some research. It seems many people just post their opinions without any factual knowledge. "Itching to prove me wrong" is a little worrisome, but thanks for checking.

 

"Welcome to our park, where you can enjoy 2% of it to your heart's content - stay off the other 98% or we'll throw you in jail!"

[+Team Cotati]

 

So that we are crystal clear, are you stating that two parks have no off-trail prohibitions? Or are you implying that all state parks in those states have no off-trail prohibitions? Or are you saying that you haven't a clue in that regard?

 

I don't believe we can be crystal clear, considering many of your replies to my posts. I am saying that I am not aware of any off trail restrictions in my years of usage of these specific parks, and have not come across any signage indicating that people may not go off trail. The most specific I can think of is related to not parking on the grass on the side of the road - but no restrictions I am aware of in terms of hiking or biking off trail.

 

Thank you for clearing that up. I'll be getting back to you.

[+Confucius' Cat]

"Welcome to our park, where you can enjoy 2% of it to your heart's content - stay off the other 98% or we'll throw you in jail!"

Not uncommon in my reckoning. What was that about "absolute power?"

[+Confucius' Cat]

"Itching to prove me wrong" is a little worrisome, but thanks for checking.

it's kinda like DNF'ing a cache... you know it's there but you can't find it... that off-trail regulation has GOT to be there... NOW DON'T CONFUSE ME WITH FACTS!

[+Glenn]

 

So that we are crystal clear, are you stating that two parks have no off-trail prohibitions? Or are you implying that all state parks in those states have no off-trail prohibitions? Or are you saying that you haven't a clue in that regard?

 

I don't believe we can be crystal clear, considering many of your replies to my posts. I am saying that I am not aware of any off trail restrictions in my years of usage of these specific parks, and have not come across any signage indicating that people may not go off trail. The most specific I can think of is related to not parking on the grass on the side of the road - but no restrictions I am aware of in terms of hiking or biking off trail.

 

Having lived in both Pennsylvania and California I have noticed that California parks have far more off limits areas. In fact right now the only off limits area I can recall seeing in a Pennsylvania park was the entrance to a closed off mine. However I can recall seeing many signs in California parks saying that certain areas were off limits to allow native species to return to the area. I remember that after one of the many California wild fires we where only allowed on the trails at my favorite park until the grass had regrown. I really didn't see the sense in it. It wasn't as if there was hoards of people tromping thru the park causing erosion. I'm sure the grass would regrow nicely with or without signs.

[+FireRef]

 

So that we are crystal clear, are you stating that two parks have no off-trail prohibitions? Or are you implying that all state parks in those states have no off-trail prohibitions? Or are you saying that you haven't a clue in that regard?

 

I don't believe we can be crystal clear, considering many of your replies to my posts. I am saying that I am not aware of any off trail restrictions in my years of usage of these specific parks, and have not come across any signage indicating that people may not go off trail. The most specific I can think of is related to not parking on the grass on the side of the road - but no restrictions I am aware of in terms of hiking or biking off trail.

 

Having lived in both Pennsylvania and California I have noticed that California parks have far more off limits areas. In fact right now the only off limits area I can recall seeing in a Pennsylvania park was the entrance to a closed off mine. However I can recall seeing many signs in California parks saying that certain areas were off limits to allow native species to return to the area. I remember that after one of the many California wild fires we where only allowed on the trails at my favorite park until the grass had regrown. I really didn't see the sense in it. It wasn't as if there was hoards of people tromping thru the park causing erosion. I'm sure the grass would regrow nicely with or without signs.

 

Yup - and they better get out there and make sure no animals are making trails. They leave footprints, break brush, trample and eat grass (and last I checked, people don't eat grass...) - just like we do. Actually, they better make sure no animals go in there at all... since no "people-animals" are allowed, no "non-people-animals" better be out there either...

 

Just because we are people doesn't mean we're not part of nature...