Illegal Activity

[+zazth]

Not even sure if I am posting this in the right place but here goes.

 

We recently completed placing our first cache series, The Art Thief. We had a really great time putting together the six micro caches for each clue and placing them near art venues. The finale is a good sized cache hidden in what we considered a funny and still really well camoed cache. We even had a decipher stage called The Pitt placed in what we considerd a good place to meet up with an informant.

The Pitt is a small cache hidden on the top of a parking garage in a safe place thanks to the architect! IT is not super hard to find and we thought it would be a really fun cache for those following the series. So far it has seen many visitors and everyone seems to like the cache. I added on the attributes that it is not a 24/7 cache as the parking garage is free parking for the neighboring businesses and none of them are open too late at night. The first page of the log book has a brief introduction and the needed decipher for the clues to find the final Art Thief cache.

A few days ago a newbie cacher found The Pitt and wrote in his log that the cache log information was not important and had nothing to do with the cache. He wrote this on his Found it log rather than e-mailing and asking what the info was for. He also stated on the log that he was on a "late night cache run". I checked out where else he and his two friends were logging caches for that night. Three of the caches they logged and stated on the cache page as being found late at night are in a local park. The park is closed at sunset, like most of the parks here. One other cache they logged is on private property behind people's homes and also is posted as not 24/7 available.

I e-mailed the cacher with the snotty post and explained what the information was for. I told him to edit his log or I would delete it for him. I also informed him that the park is off limits after sunset. I e-mailed his caching cohorts and told them if not for the snotty log I would have never looked any further to begin with but since I had, I informed them that caching in the park after sunset is illegal. I also let them know that there are many 24/7 caches in our area and are denoted as such on their attributes.

The replies I got back from all three were snide and sarcastic at best. The one went so far as to say he intends to continue basically what he is doing. I e-mailed Groundspeak about their activity but I am wondering if they will do anything about it.

BTW he did edit his post and take out the snotty comment.

[+zazth]

Well, is there anything that can be done about this?

[+ReadyOrNot]

Well, is there anything that can be done about this?

 

I really enjoy caching at night also and have to admit that I've been to a couple of "Closed at dusk" parks at about 1am It may not be technically "The Right Thing" to do, but I generally use my instincts when I get to a cache location. If its near a bunch of houses, then it's probably not a good idea to cache it at night. If it's just out in the middle of the woods, I'd probably go for it...

 

Why worry about it?

[+Renegade Knight]

... BTW he did edit his post and take out the snotty comment.

Plan A.

Your job is done.

 

Plan B isn't so hot.

 

You could go to the police and inform them that you know someone who willfully and wantonly violates park curfews and you would like them fined and arrested. You would probably get educated that the police just like the rest of us have priorities. Real crime vs. folks doing no harm out after dark.

[+zazth]

Well, is there anything that can be done about this?

 

I really enjoy caching at night also and have to admit that I've been to a couple of "Closed at dusk" parks at about 1am It may not be technically "The Right Thing" to do, but I generally use my instincts when I get to a cache location. If its near a bunch of houses, then it's probably not a good idea to cache it at night. If it's just out in the middle of the woods, I'd probably go for it...

 

Why worry about it?

 

One of the caches is in a residential area behind the houses and is NOT a 24/7 cache.

 

The park they are trespassing in is in an historic area. Early last year all of the caches in the area parks were required to obtain permits. Some of the caches were removed because they were either too near the camp grounds or were too near the earth works. Very few new caches have been approved in the parks since then because of the issue of people caching irresponsibly and trampling the earthworks or going into areas they do not belong (campgrounds). I can imagine that at night those areas are harder to recognize. If the trend of "I'm going to do whatever I want despite the posted warnings" continues I can very easily see the park removing all 50+ caches from the one park and the rest that are scattered in other local parks. It would be a shame to lose those caches. They were really fun to find.

[+zazth]

... BTW he did edit his post and take out the snotty comment.

Plan A.

Your job is done.

 

Plan B isn't so hot.

 

You could go to the police and inform them that you know someone who willfully and wantonly violates park curfews and you would like them fined and arrested. You would probably get educated that the police just like the rest of us have priorities. Real crime vs. folks doing no harm out after dark.

 

You say no harm and I disagree. As stated in another post, this is an historic area. Traipsing through the area at night would make it very hard to distinguish between an earthwork and a small hill. I am not asking that they be arrested or even fined. I just want them to abide by the park rules. They are there for a reason.

[+zazth]

Well, is there anything that can be done about this?

 

I really enjoy caching at night also and have to admit that I've been to a couple of "Closed at dusk" parks at about 1am It may not be technically "The Right Thing" to do, but I generally use my instincts when I get to a cache location. If its near a bunch of houses, then it's probably not a good idea to cache it at night. If it's just out in the middle of the woods, I'd probably go for it...

 

Why worry about it?

 

I don't have an issue with night caching. I've been on more than one late night cache run. None of the caches on my list were in closed parks. There are an abundance of urban caches here to go after night and even some night caches of larger proportions. There is no need to target non night caches for late night cache runs.

[+Wadcutter]

It may not be technically "The Right Thing" to do,

Technically? Talk about sugar coating it. How about using the correct word. If it's posted then it's legally not the right thing to do. If they decide to pursue charges there is no "technical" violation but a criminal violation. Try explaining to a judge that you were just "technically" disobeying the law. Judges like to hear such arguments. So how do you feel about paying a fine and having a criminal conviction on your record? That's not something "technical".

Edited January 4, 2008 by Wadcutter

[+joranda]

Well said Wadcutter. You are very right.

[+zazth]

The drama with this one unfortunately has continued.

 

The very same day the night cachers responded to my e-mail we received an e-mail from another cacher in our area. He has been caching longer but is still rather new to the game. He e-mailed about, Larry, the finale to the Art Thief Series. GC15P9T it is clearly posted as NOT AT THE POSTED COORDINATES. My husband was home, I was on duty so he responded to the e-mail train which follows:

 

Cacher:what is the permit number to that cache? please so it is legal in the

newport news park system. list it in the cache information please thankyou

and happy caching.

 

Response:which cache are you speaking of?

 

Cacher:sorry for that it is larry the fence

 

Response:Larry the "Fence" isn't in Newport News Park. The Coords on the page for him are not right. you must find the rest of the Art Thief series to find Larry. it only appears to be in the park.

 

Cacher:maybe you should put that in the information beforwe some one gets mad at you and rents a boat for nothing and turns it into the park ranger station however it is your chioce have a good day sorry to bothered you .

 

Response:did you read the cache page before writing to me? the first thing it says is that "THE CACHE IS NOT AT POSTED COORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Final to the Art Thief Series ". Sorry if you got mad. not my fault if people don't read and go off and rent boats to find something that isn't there. Dot plotter made sure that I was covered by not publishing this cache till after I made it clear that it wasn't a stand alone cache. but you have a nice day.

 

I find it rather odd that this person would suddenly become illiterate and have an issue with this cache after the problem with the night cachers and one of their responses: If you notice, even the caches that have

been placed by Newport News Parks and Recreation (in the same parks your caches are placed) mention nothing about night time, and even display images of cachers seeking at night.

 

1) I have no caches in that park other than the incorrect location for Larry.

2)Newport New Parks and Recreation do not place caches

3)The hours for the parks are posted at the entrance and it is REALLY hard to mistake a locked gate as being an invitiation to enter! Those hours are also posted on the park websites and on Dot Plotter's profile and on some of the cache pages.

4) There are no "images" of cachers seeking at night on the cache pages. One cache has a really questionable photograph that does have a very dark background. I doubt very seriously that it was a late night cache run as the picture is of three or four children at the cache. The youngest is a toddler and the picture is quite obviously taken during the winter months.

 

 

This morning a new cache came out in the same park, denoted as a puzzle and with The cache is not at posted coordinates banner. And guess who was the first to find! That's right! The guy who had a problem finding Larry. I simply couldn't help sending him a congratulations for his find.

[+Bad_CRC]

if you mess with people, they are going to mess with you back. not too suprising.

 

I think it's bad practice to have the actual location for a puzzle cache be too far away from the listed coordinates, they should at least lead to parking for the cache.

[+Barnie's Band of Gold]

Well said Bad CRC - my thoughts exactly!

 

I'd also like to add that people will generally do what they please and enforcing rules (real or imagined) is quite difficult. Perhaps an effort to place your caches in 24/7 areas would help - as would avoid placing the "CACHE NOT AT THE POSTED CO-ORDINATES in an area that could be controversial.

 

My 0.02.

[+Miragee]

<snip>

A few days ago a newbie cacher found The Pitt and wrote in his log that the cache log information was not important and had nothing to do with the cache. He wrote this on his Found it log rather than e-mailing and asking what the info was for. He also stated on the log that he was on a "late night cache run". I checked out where else he and his two friends were logging caches for that night. Three of the caches they logged and stated on the cache page as being found late at night are in a local park. The park is closed at sunset, like most of the parks here. One other cache they logged is on private property behind people's homes and also is posted as not 24/7 available.

 

I e-mailed the cacher with the snotty post and explained what the information was for. I told him to edit his log or I would delete it for him. I also informed him that the park is off limits after sunset. I e-mailed his caching cohorts and told them if not for the snotty log I would have never looked any further to begin with but since I had, I informed them that caching in the park after sunset is illegal. I also let them know that there are many 24/7 caches in our area and are denoted as such on their attributes.

 

The replies I got back from all three were snide and sarcastic at best. The one went so far as to say he intends to continue basically what he is doing. I e-mailed Groundspeak about their activity but I am wondering if they will do anything about it.

 

BTW he did edit his post and take out the snotty comment.

I would like to commend you for your efforts. Just today I found out that even without such things happening, that our local caching community was aware of, all caches in San Diego County Parks are being removed.

 

This coupled with the sudden decision to remove all caches from Anza Borrego Desert State Park, the largest State Park in the United States, is a huge blow to local Geocachers. Some of those caches had been in place for more than five years.

 

If people persist in violating the rules of your Parks, the caches in your local Parks could suffer the same fates.

 

Although it doesn't sound like they want to listen to reason, perhaps if they understand caching could be prohibited, and caches removed from the Parks, if cachers are known to be doing things they shouldn't, they will be more willing to follow the Rules and Regulations for the Parks that have them.

 

As for not reading the cache page for a Puzzle cache clearing marked with a , there is no excuse. Our local Puzzle Cachers often put the Puzzle Cache coordinates in the middle of a lake, or out in the ocean. There is nothing wrong with that. It is just suggested that the fake coordinates be within two miles of the actual cache.

[+zazth]

"if you mess with people, they are going to mess with you back. not too suprising."

 

No, what is suprising is that some people actually think you should do nothing. Posting false coordinates and then stating that the coordinates are false is a common and accepted practice. Why should I give you parking coordinates for a public area that has clearly marked parking areas? Why give you a hint for where the cache actually is without finding the other caches in the series? If this was a single, stand alone puzzle cache, then yes I would provide a waypoint for parking but it is not this type of cache.

[+zazth]

Well said Bad CRC - my thoughts exactly!

 

I'd also like to add that people will generally do what they please and enforcing rules (real or imagined) is quite difficult. Perhaps an effort to place your caches in 24/7 areas would help - as would avoid placing the "CACHE NOT AT THE POSTED CO-ORDINATES in an area that could be controversial.

 

My 0.02.

 

We have already had problems with cachers doing what they please, hence the required permits. I'm not trying to placate a group of people who are beaking the law and endangering the caches in the parks of being taken away. Nor do I intend to simply sit back and say nothing. Silence is the same as acceptance. Say nothing and you say it's okay to continue breaking the law because you are geocaching. Is this the person you want representing the geocaching community? Guess what! This is exactly who is representing you when he gets arrested for trespassing or some one gets hurt going after his one cache that was placed with out permission on private property in an unsafe place. Then geocaching becomes something other than what it is in the public eye. The parks remove your caches because geocaching is promoting trespassing on their premises after hours and if you are promoting the breaking of one law....

[+Barnie's Band of Gold]

Hey Zarth I'm not sure why you quoted my post then went on a completely irrelevant tangent. Perhaps you are so incensed by this issue that you no longer comprehend simple English. Let me take another shot at getting my point across.

 

I in no way advocate illegal activities in the name of geocaching. I also don't believe in "sitting back and saying nothing" when this is going on. What I am trying to say is that it is not possible for you or anyone else to dictate, impose, will, want or desire a certain behavior from another individual for which you have no direct influence or control. People will do pretty much whatever they please - simple fact for most to understand. So when we understand this fact we can choose to take certain steps to mitigate potential problems or make a big fuss when the expected happens (remember people will do pretty much whatever they please).

 

One way I suggested and still suggest is to ensure your caches are in areas that are accessible 24/7. Then you don't need to worry about late night visits to an area that is off limits then or would cause concern by nearby residents. The other thing I suggested was that bogus co-ordinates be in locations that are not open to confusion or attempts to locate for those that didn't read the cache page. For instance, fake co-ordinates in the middle of a lake would ensure that the seeker have a closer look at the cache page (or ensure that he always has his bathing trunks in his geopack).

 

There is usually many ways to address an issue or problem. You can impose many rules under the misguided (or hopeful) notion that they will be blindly followed. Or, you can make it easy and avoid potential temptation or controversy. But in your words that would "placate a group of people who are breaking the law" - better that you maintain unrealistic expectations and criticize when they are not met.

 

Too bad we couldn't make more of an effort to just avoid the potential problems upfront. More work in this area would likely result in less need to fight local governments to keep our parks open to geocaching.

 

YOU could be part of the solution - again your choice!

[+zazth]

Hey Zarth I'm not sure why you quoted my post then went on a completely irrelevant tangent. Perhaps you are so incensed by this issue that you no longer comprehend simple English. Let me take another shot at getting my point across.

 

I in no way advocate illegal activities in the name of geocaching. I also don't believe in "sitting back and saying nothing" when this is going on. What I am trying to say is that it is not possible for you or anyone else to dictate, impose, will, want or desire a certain behavior from another individual for which you have no direct influence or control. People will do pretty much whatever they please - simple fact for most to understand. So when we understand this fact we can choose to take certain steps to mitigate potential problems or make a big fuss when the expected happens (remember people will do pretty much whatever they please).

 

One way I suggested and still suggest is to ensure your caches are in areas that are accessible 24/7. Then you don't need to worry about late night visits to an area that is off limits then or would cause concern by nearby residents. The other thing I suggested was that bogus co-ordinates be in locations that are not open to confusion or attempts to locate for those that didn't read the cache page. For instance, fake co-ordinates in the middle of a lake would ensure that the seeker have a closer look at the cache page (or ensure that he always has his bathing trunks in his geopack).

 

There is usually many ways to address an issue or problem. You can impose many rules under the misguided (or hopeful) notion that they will be blindly followed. Or, you can make it easy and avoid potential temptation or controversy. But in your words that would "placate a group of people who are breaking the law" - better that you maintain unrealistic expectations and criticize when they are not met.

 

Too bad we couldn't make more of an effort to just avoid the potential problems upfront. More work in this area would likely result in less need to fight local governments to keep our parks open to geocaching.

 

YOU could be part of the solution - again your choice!

 

First perhaps you are the one having an issue with reading and comprehension as you have misspelled my user name. My "tangent" as you call it was quite relevant but then I guess you did not understand. You quote placing fake coordinates in the middle of a lake as a solution, funny you should say this, the cache mentioned in my later post is in the water by the fake coordinates. But still some one did not bother to read the cache page and was irritated that this puzzle cache was not there!

 

Silence is the same as agreement. If you say nothing then it is perceived that bad behavior is within the realm of acceptance. You have as much influence as you allow yourself too. Say nothing, you won't have any influence.

 

Your point? You think no one has any control over what others do? I disagree.

Edited January 7, 2008 by zazth

[+Barnie's Band of Gold]

Your point? You think no one has any control over what others do? I disagree.

 

No the point was really that you could contribute to the solution by modifying your approach. That is if you really want to eliminate some of the problems plaguing geocaching.

 

Me thinks you're a winner/loser kind of person and would rather beat your opponent into submission then amicably reconcile. Now go ahead and use your control to change my opinion of you!!

[+Barnie's Band of Gold]

the embarrassing double (no triple post)

Edited January 8, 2008 by Barnie's Band of Gold

[+Barnie's Band of Gold]

leaning on the return key!

Edited January 8, 2008 by Barnie's Band of Gold

[+zazth]

Your point? You think no one has any control over what others do? I disagree.

 

No the point was really that you could contribute to the solution by modifying your approach. That is if you really want to eliminate some of the problems plaguing geocaching.

 

Me thinks you're a winner/loser kind of person and would rather beat your opponent into submission then amicably reconcile. Now go ahead and use your control to change my opinion of you!!

 

 

If this was your point then it would have been better served to have stated this rather than saying:

"You can impose many rules under the misguided (or hopeful) notion that they will be blindly followed. Or, you can make it easy and avoid potential temptation or controversy."

 

Rules are there for a reason and are not a suggestion of what you might choose to do. It is not "unrealistic" to ask others to follow the park rules. They are not MY rules as you seem to imply.

 

I think you are doing a better job of describing yourself than me. You don't win a debate, by the way, by attempting to belittle your opponent, failing to make a clear point, failing to be well versed on the subject and making statements that point out that you have failed to even read the information presented.

[+ReadyOrNot]

It may not be technically "The Right Thing" to do,

Technically? Talk about sugar coating it. How about using the correct word. If it's posted then it's legally not the right thing to do. If they decide to pursue charges there is no "technical" violation but a criminal violation. Try explaining to a judge that you were just "technically" disobeying the law. Judges like to hear such arguments. So how do you feel about paying a fine and having a criminal conviction on your record? That's not something "technical".

 

If I go to a park that closes at "dusk" at 11pm, please state what criminal violation I am violating.. Are they going to trespass me from public property?

 

Give me a break.. Let's not go overboard here.

[+zazth]

It may not be technically "The Right Thing" to do,

Technically? Talk about sugar coating it. How about using the correct word. If it's posted then it's legally not the right thing to do. If they decide to pursue charges there is no "technical" violation but a criminal violation. Try explaining to a judge that you were just "technically" disobeying the law. Judges like to hear such arguments. So how do you feel about paying a fine and having a criminal conviction on your record? That's not something "technical".

 

If I go to a park that closes at "dusk" at 11pm, please state what criminal violation I am violating.. Are they going to trespass me from public property?

 

Give me a break.. Let's not go overboard here.

Depending upon the park, you may be told to leave OR you may be arrested for trespassing. The parks here are more likely than not going to have you arrested. They post their hours at every entrance.

[+Miragee]

It may not be technically "The Right Thing" to do,

Technically? Talk about sugar coating it. How about using the correct word. If it's posted then it's legally not the right thing to do. If they decide to pursue charges there is no "technical" violation but a criminal violation. Try explaining to a judge that you were just "technically" disobeying the law. Judges like to hear such arguments. So how do you feel about paying a fine and having a criminal conviction on your record? That's not something "technical".

If I go to a park that closes at "dusk" at 11pm, please state what criminal violation I am violating.. Are they going to trespass me from public property?

 

Give me a break.. Let's not go overboard here.

Did you read my post about caches being removed from San Diego County Parks. Right now, we don't know why that is happening, but what if it was because a Geocacher was caught in a Park after hours?

 

A couple of years ago, a cache placed in a small neighborhood park by some Girl Scouts was Archived soon after it was placed because cachers went into the park after dark, after the park was closed. A neighbor got very upset about these strangers wandering around the park, causing his dogs to bark.

 

Because of the flap that occurred back then, when someone recently placed a new cache in that park, the Reviewer said "No." He did not want a repeat of what happened in 2005.

 

Isn't it just better to abide by the Park Rules and not risk problems?

[+Wadcutter]

If I go to a park that closes at "dusk" at 11pm, please state what criminal violation I am violating.. Are they going to trespass me from public property?

Give me a break.. Let's not go overboard here.

Give you a break? How about you read up on the law. Sorry if you think it's "overboard" but if a location is posted closed at a certain hour and you are in that location after that time, including a public park then the charge is trespassing on public property. For IL I've included that statute below. Class A Misdemeanor is a fine of up to $1000 and 365 days in jail. A Class B is up to 6 months in jail. Check the laws in your state. There will be something similar. States don't differ much in their statutes. You would be in a place where you are prohibited from being. That's called trespassing. It might surprise you but it's a fairly common charge.

Are they going to charge you? They most certain could press charges if they wanted. What we usually do is give them a warning the first time we catch them (there's the break you asked for) but get caught the second time and it's charged. How do we know if you're caught before? It pops up whenever we run your name. I also say "generally" that's the procedure. If the park district/board has had enough complaints and problems then they'll usually want charges filed the first time caught.

(There you go - a free legal lesson.)

 

(720 ILCS 5/21‑5) (from Ch. 38, par. 21‑5)

Sec. 21‑5. Criminal Trespass to State Supported Land.

(a) Whoever enters upon land supported in whole or in part with State funds, or Federal funds administered or granted through State agencies or any building on such land, after receiving, prior to such entry, notice from the State or its representative that such entry is forbidden, or remains upon such land or in such building after receiving notice from the State or its representative to depart, and who thereby interferes with another person's lawful use or enjoyment of such building or land, commits a Class A misdemeanor.

( b ) A person has received notice from the State within the meaning of subsection (a) if he has been notified personally, either orally or in writing, or if a printed or written notice forbidding such entry to him or a group of which he is a part, has been conspicuously posted or exhibited at the main entrance to such land or the forbidden part thereof.

 

or it could be simple trespass:

 

(720 ILCS 5/21‑3) (from Ch. 38, par. 21‑3)

Sec. 21‑3. Criminal trespass to real property.

(a) Except as provided in subsection (a‑5), whoever:

(1) knowingly and without lawful authority enters or

remains within or on a building; or

(2) enters upon the land of another, after receiving,

prior to such entry, notice from the owner or occupant that such entry is forbidden; or

(3) remains upon the land of another, after receiving

notice from the owner or occupant to depart; or

( A person has received notice from the owner or occupant within the meaning of Subsection (a) if he has been notified personally, either orally or in writing including a valid court order as defined by subsection (7) of Section 112A‑3 of the Code of Criminal Procedure of 1963 granting remedy (2) of subsection ( of Section 112A‑14 of that Code, or if a printed or written notice forbidding such entry has been conspicuously posted or exhibited at the main entrance to such land or the forbidden part thereof.

 

Without doing a lot of research, for Oregon the section appears to be Chapter 164.245. Could be others but I'm not about to research in depth Oregon law.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Wadcutter

[+briansnat]

It may not be technically "The Right Thing" to do,

Technically? Talk about sugar coating it. How about using the correct word. If it's posted then it's legally not the right thing to do. If they decide to pursue charges there is no "technical" violation but a criminal violation. Try explaining to a judge that you were just "technically" disobeying the law. Judges like to hear such arguments. So how do you feel about paying a fine and having a criminal conviction on your record? That's not something "technical".

 

If I go to a park that closes at "dusk" at 11pm, please state what criminal violation I am violating.. Are they going to trespass me from public property?

 

Give me a break.. Let's not go overboard here.

 

If you are caught and they find out you are geocaching, it certainly will give the sport a black eye in the mind of the authorities.

[+ReadyOrNot]

It may not be technically "The Right Thing" to do,

Technically? Talk about sugar coating it. How about using the correct word. If it's posted then it's legally not the right thing to do. If they decide to pursue charges there is no "technical" violation but a criminal violation. Try explaining to a judge that you were just "technically" disobeying the law. Judges like to hear such arguments. So how do you feel about paying a fine and having a criminal conviction on your record? That's not something "technical".

 

If I go to a park that closes at "dusk" at 11pm, please state what criminal violation I am violating.. Are they going to trespass me from public property?

 

Give me a break.. Let's not go overboard here.

 

"" but I generally use my instincts when I get to a cache location. ""

 

Obviously some places are a big no-no at night... Some places at night are not a big deal. Use your "Judgement". A lot of places are not clearly marked, but may not be a good idea at night...

 

If you are caught and they find out you are geocaching, it certainly will give the sport a black eye in the mind of the authorities.

[+zazth]

 

"" but I generally use my instincts when I get to a cache location. ""

 

Obviously some places are a big no-no at night... Some places at night are not a big deal. Use your "Judgement". A lot of places are not clearly marked, but may not be a good idea at night...

 

We are not talking about Wal-Mart parking lot caches or the cache chained to your mailbox. We are talking about caches placed in parks that are closed at sunset or a set time.

 

If you are going to a park that closes at "dusk" at 11 p.m. you are guilty of trespassing.

[+ReadyOrNot]

 

"" but I generally use my instincts when I get to a cache location. ""

 

Obviously some places are a big no-no at night... Some places at night are not a big deal. Use your "Judgement". A lot of places are not clearly marked, but may not be a good idea at night...

 

We are not talking about Wal-Mart parking lot caches or the cache chained to your mailbox. We are talking about caches placed in parks that are closed at sunset or a set time.

 

If you are going to a park that closes at "dusk" at 11 p.m. you are guilty of trespassing.

 

So be it... I'll stick with my judgement. During the winter, it gets dark at 4:30, I don't mind grabbing one at 4:45, even though it's technically "Past Dusk"

[+Renegade Knight]

...You say no harm and I disagree. As stated in another post, this is an historic area. Traipsing through the area at night would make it very hard to distinguish between an earthwork and a small hill. I am not asking that they be arrested or even fined. I just want them to abide by the park rules. They are there for a reason.

 

You lost me. What is the issue with earthwork and a small hill?

[+zazth]

 

"" but I generally use my instincts when I get to a cache location. ""

 

Obviously some places are a big no-no at night... Some places at night are not a big deal. Use your "Judgement". A lot of places are not clearly marked, but may not be a good idea at night...

 

We are not talking about Wal-Mart parking lot caches or the cache chained to your mailbox. We are talking about caches placed in parks that are closed at sunset or a set time.

 

If you are going to a park that closes at "dusk" at 11 p.m. you are guilty of trespassing.

 

So be it... I'll stick with my judgement. During the winter, it gets dark at 4:30, I don't mind grabbing one at 4:45, even though it's technically "Past Dusk"

 

Me personally I really don't care what time it is. If a new cache comes out and I am not busy or it is not in a restricted area, I am out the door!

 

I love the hunt and I would hate to miss caching because I was stuck in jail!

[+ReadyOrNot]

 

"" but I generally use my instincts when I get to a cache location. ""

 

Obviously some places are a big no-no at night... Some places at night are not a big deal. Use your "Judgement". A lot of places are not clearly marked, but may not be a good idea at night...

 

We are not talking about Wal-Mart parking lot caches or the cache chained to your mailbox. We are talking about caches placed in parks that are closed at sunset or a set time.

 

If you are going to a park that closes at "dusk" at 11 p.m. you are guilty of trespassing.

 

So be it... I'll stick with my judgement. During the winter, it gets dark at 4:30, I don't mind grabbing one at 4:45, even though it's technically "Past Dusk"

 

Me personally I really don't care what time it is. If a new cache comes out and I am not busy or it is not in a restricted area, I am out the door!

 

I love the hunt and I would hate to miss caching because I was stuck in jail!

 

The situations where I've "Disobeyed" the rules would not have landed me in jail if a cop happen to come by.. This is not a black and white issue, that's all I'm trying to relay here. Use your best judgement. I guarantee you don't follow every silly rule that's out there. If you did, you might go insane.

[+zazth]

...You say no harm and I disagree. As stated in another post, this is an historic area. Traipsing through the area at night would make it very hard to distinguish between an earthwork and a small hill. I am not asking that they be arrested or even fined. I just want them to abide by the park rules. They are there for a reason.

 

You lost me. What is the issue with earthwork and a small hill?

 

We live in a historic area (Yorktown, Williamsburg, Jamestown VA) The Newport News Park is on a battlefield. Revolutionary War and Civil War battlegrounds are all over this area. The earthworks are trenches dug by the Civil war soldiers. (Not really a history buff.) At night you really wouldn't be able to tell what they are unless you knew.

 

There are posted signs throughout the park reminding people to stay off of the earthworks. It is about the same as climbing over some one's grave. More than one person died in those trenches. The area the night cachers were in is near enough to the earthworks to be an issue.

 

In spring of 2007 the parks stopped all new cache placements, required all present caches to obtain a permit from them and requested that at least two caches be moved because of their proximity to the earthworks. The cahe itself was not really the problem. If you followed the trails you could easily avoid the earthworks and still find the cache. Unfortunately some cachers were not following the hiking trails and instead were forging through the woods and across the earthworks to the point that the park ranger noticed damage done by foot traffic. And this was during the daylight!

[+zazth]

The situations where I've "Disobeyed" the rules would not have landed me in jail if a cop happen to come by.. This is not a black and white issue, that's all I'm trying to relay here. Use your best judgement. I guarantee you don't follow every silly rule that's out there. If you did, you might go insane.

 

Of course not! I can't drive 55 comes on the radio and I will suddenly creep well over the speed limit.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Well, there are two things that I've learnt.

Some people will do whatever they want, despite laws and regulations. Discretion being the better part of valor, perhaps putting the location for the mystery cache in the park might not have been the best place, as innocuous as it seems. Live and learn. I had one mystery cache brute forced because the parking spot was too close to the first stage. Of course, it was a small park, so there was not way around it. And, I've brute forced at least one cache the same way. So for another evil mystery cache, I put the 'coordinates' four blocks away. People spent hours combing that location! (Obviously, the missed both the mystery, and the wording that the cache was not at that location.) Since then I put the coordinates for another cache in the middle of a major river (and people combed both banks of the river!) Some people just don't understand this concept., and will extensively search the area of the coordinates. Don't put the coords where you don't want people to search extensively. Hee hee hee. It would have been fun to watch people searching that street corner in West New York!

Being nice usually works better than being not nice. Something about vinegar and honey. And we are all in this game together. (Read threads about 'deleted his post, and my cache disappeared'.)

[Sly-Fox]

if you mess with people, they are going to mess with you back. not too suprising.

 

I think it's bad practice to have the actual location for a puzzle cache be too far away from the listed coordinates, they should at least lead to parking for the cache.

 

You could even put a micro at the location that you put with the location of the First cache in the series. Or put the coords of the first cache on all posts in the series. then put that this particular isn't at that location but the first one you NEED to go to is the first one in the series. I think you get the idea for that. I have seen a few that do this.

 

Just a thought.

[+Texsox]

Couple random thoughts all in general, many apply here.

 

The hider wants the finder to play by *their* rules. Doesn't always happen.

The hider wants the finder to love the hide. Doesn't always happen.

The hider deserves the finder to be respectful and vice versa. Doesn't always happen.

Most of the world does not play the game and could not care less.

There should be more to the sport then blindly following an arrow. Doesn't always happen.

People are not serving time and paying $$$$ fines for being in the neighborhood park after hours.

If a big enough deal is made about those trespassing, eliminating the activity that causes them to trespass would seem a logical solution.

I've met everyone from teenagers to retirees while looking, Dems and Reps, vegans and meat lovers. Why we would think that a GPSr would bring everyone together to sing songs and get along is kind of silly. So do like you do in real life, ignore the mean people.

[+Renegade Knight]

...In spring of 2007 the parks stopped all new cache placements, required all present caches to obtain a permit from them and requested that at least two caches be moved because of their proximity to the earthworks. The cahe itself was not really the problem. If you followed the trails you could easily avoid the earthworks and still find the cache. Unfortunately some cachers were not following the hiking trails and instead were forging through the woods and across the earthworks to the point that the park ranger noticed damage done by foot traffic. And this was during the daylight!

 

Thank's good info.

[+Wadcutter]

People are not serving time and paying $$$$ fines for being in the neighborhood park after hours.

Can't say I know anyone currently serving time for being in a park after hours, however, fines around here start at $100 and generally the judges are assessing $250 plus court costs which run about another $125. As far as serving time I do know several who spent the night in jail waiting to see a judge the next morning when they were caught in parks after hours, had been told to leave, and were still there.

Just because you haven't heard of it happening doesn't mean it hasn't or isn't happening.

[+ReadyOrNot]

People are not serving time and paying $$$$ fines for being in the neighborhood park after hours.

Can't say I know anyone currently serving time for being in a park after hours, however, fines around here start at $100 and generally the judges are assessing $250 plus court costs which run about another $125. As far as serving time I do know several who spent the night in jail waiting to see a judge the next morning when they were caught in parks after hours, had been told to leave, and were still there.

Just because you haven't heard of it happening doesn't mean it hasn't or isn't happening.

 

And someone got beamed on the head by stray space junk that re-entered.. They were killed. Does that mean everyone should go out and buy helmets and wear them whenever they are outside?

[+Wadcutter]

And someone got beamed on the head by stray space junk that re-entered.. They were killed. Does that mean everyone should go out and buy helmets and wear them whenever they are outside?

I remind you that you wrote "People are not serving time and paying $$$$ fines for being in the neighborhood park after hours." I'm just pointing out that they sure the heck are and have been. Just because you haven't it doesn't mean anything. I can assure you tho that in my 35 years as a LEO I have seen a lot of arrests and fines for just such violations which you think don't happen. If you want to take the chance then have it. Just don't whine about it if you get caught, spend the night in jail awaiting bond, and then have to appear in court and pay the fine. I don't know anyone who has gotten hit by space junk but I worked a lot of weekends where the local police were making the arrests for just such violations.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Wadcutter

[+ReadyOrNot]

And someone got beamed on the head by stray space junk that re-entered.. They were killed. Does that mean everyone should go out and buy helmets and wear them whenever they are outside?

I remind you that you wrote "People are not serving time and paying $$$$ fines for being in the neighborhood park after hours." I'm just pointing out that they sure the heck are and have been. Just because you haven't it doesn't mean anything. I can assure you tho that in my 35 years as a LEO I have seen a lot of arrests and fines for just such violations which you think don't happen. If you want to take the chance then have it. Just don't whine about it if you get caught, spend the night in jail awaiting bond, and then have to appear in court and pay the fine. I don't know anyone who has gotten hit by space junk but I worked a lot of weekends where the local police were making the arrests for just such violations.

 

Well, I certainly wouldn't choose to live there if the police don't have better things to spend their time doing.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Well, I certainly wouldn't choose to live there if the police don't have better things to spend their time doing.

I live across the street from a park with dawn to dusk hours. I ignore them. My kids ignore them. The park is a short cut if you are walking somewhere. Walking around takes more time. This doesn't change if you happen to be walking at 6pm in winter. It's also a nice enough park.

 

Alas we have neighbors who don't ingore them, and call in anything. The police come, shine their spotlight and shoo everone out. No harm no foul. The other night we had a power outage. Someone asked "should we report it?" my kids said "Naa we have neighbors who call us in for laying in the grass at the park and watching the stars. I'm sure they are on top of this as well".

 

The rules exist to keep out the riff raff. But mostly it's the regular citizens who are punished becasue they can't lay in the park and look at the stars. The riff raff wouldn't even bother noticing a dusk to dawn closure. We cachers at least debate their merit.

 

As for the neighbors I recon I could have my kids lay on the sidewalk in front of their house...That's legal.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Edited January 11, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Edited January 11, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Edited January 11, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Wadcutter]

Well, I certainly wouldn't choose to live there if the police don't have better things to spend their time doing.

You probably already do, you just don't know it. Unless you are involved in the criminal justice system and see the arrests that are being made then you have no idea what your police, and park police, are doing.

[+"fish"]

i will ad my thoughts to this thread also

 

DOIN IT MY WAY IN THE DARK

[TravelingMat]

I'm kinda new to geocaching, me and my fam have only found one. Anyway I was wondering, in a series cache where you have to get the clue or coords from the first cache to find the second and so on, why not post all the cache coords as the coords of the first cache?

[+Miragee]

I'm kinda new to geocaching, me and my fam have only found one. Anyway I was wondering, in a series cache where you have to get the clue or coords from the first cache to find the second and so on, why not post all the cache coords as the coords of the first cache?

Welcome to the Forums!

 

That is exactly the way a Multi-cache works. However, part of this discussion has been about "Puzzle" caches (also referred to as Unknown). For those caches, you have to figure out the Puzzle in order to find the coordinates. Those will have coordinates on the cache page, but there is also the clear disclaimer that "THE CACHE IS NOT AT THESE COORDINATES".

 

I never put the "Puzzle/Unknown" caches into my GSAK database for sending to my GPSr until I have the "corrected coordinates." For Multi caches, you often need the cache page description with you, either printed out, or on your PDA, to know what you are supposed to find at the listed coordinates in order to find the second, and successive, if any, waypoint/s.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Miragee