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Don't ask Don't Tell = bad idea!


Kit Fox

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It's amazing how much people that don't even live here seem to know all the facts. As I already explained, we have a new kid on the block that is either ignorant of our past agreement or has decided to renege on the agreed upon guidelines that we have all been following. Also as it turns out there are exactly 358 caches in the park and not over 5000 that the new kid on the block was told. Many of these caches are over six years old. To be honest some of these posts are nothing but salt in the wound. Thanks... :sad:

Edited by TrailGators
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I don't live there... and I don't know any facts. But.....

 

If there have been some cachers/caches that violate the guidelines, then it would be very easy to punish those individuals directly... perhaps even use them as an example of what happens when you violate the guidelines. But to shut down the whole thing? that is lame. Geocaching is probably the only activity in these areas that actually has a record of who is doing what... where and when. which also makes it an easy scape goat for anything that ANY body visiting the park may have done.

 

Ranger 1: Hmmm... this damage wasn't here last week when I drove by here.

Ranger 2: oh.. well I can see that there is a geocache 100 feet from here and CacherX visited it just yesterday.

Ranger 1: Well, there is no way that any of the 50 hikers that came by this past week could have done this. Clearly CacherX caused this damage.

Ranger 2: Clearly... I guess we need to ban geocaching in the entire park.

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I disagree. If the areas are open to human traffic, there is no reason to prevent or remove physical caches. If they don't want people in the "sensitive" areas, fine. Fence it off, put up signs, prevent access to the site. But to claim that we are doing something WRONG is plain lunacy.

 

I am a firm believer in the frisbee rule. Public means it's mine too.

 

SD

 

Public may mean it's yours, but it doesn't give you an inherent right to do as you please. Just as you can't do as you please in your own house. There are laws, rules and regulations for reasons.

 

Usage of public lands are a privilege not a right.

 

And, I'd bet you a paycheck there were signs all over the place about those sensitive areas. You can't physically fence everything off in all scenarios and not inhibit the wildlife in their habitat...that's an unrealistic expectation.

 

Public means I get to use the land as long I don't screw it up for other users. That's called being a good steward of the land. geocaching is probably the smallest impact of ANY outdoor activity. Camping, biking, campfires, offroading, all do far more "damage" than geocaching ever could.

 

Public land means, if the "public" can use it for willy-nilly "look at me pretending to be outdoorsy" we can use it for geocaching. I can't believe you would simply give away your rights like that.

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Only the land owner has the right to determine what he or she will or will not allow on their land. It's so simple to ask and I think you will find that most land owners, when approached with a reasonable request, will allow you to place a cache. If the answer is no, then move on. If you want to make choices about a particular area......buy the land yourself.

 

Public land was bought by each and every one of us.

 

That's correct. What makes you any better than all of those other people who also helped to buy that land?

 

Nothing. Just like none of them have anymore say that I CAN'T.

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Just as our taxes pay for our Public Lands, they pay for many things that we have in life. Unfortunately, we as individuals don't get to make the regulations for that spending either. That's why we elect officials that plan to work towards goals that we personally are interested in. There are lobbyists to help campaign for our interests. But please understand, your taxes don't give you free reign over the rest of us. That's just not how our country works.

 

Did you vote for the idiot confiscating caches? NOPE! no one did! that's the problem. Try getting your elected representives to do something. They are too worried about thier next election to bother with some bureacratic zealot.

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It's amazing how much people that don't even live here seem to know all the facts. As I already explained, we have a new kid on the block that is either ignorant of our past agreement or has decided to renege on the agreed upon guidelines that we have all been following. Also as it turns out there are exactly 358 caches in the park and not over 5000 that the new kid on the block was told. Many of these caches are over six years old. To be honest some of these posts are nothing but salt in the wound. Thanks... :sad:

 

I'm sorry to hear that you have lost permission on your park land and do hope to see it resolved soon. But, this thread is about the reasons that gaining permission is a good thing, so I think the posts have all been relevant in that discussion. What happened in your area can happen in any one of our states. It's helpful to communicate just how important gaining permission is so this won't continue to happen in the future.

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Just as our taxes pay for our Public Lands, they pay for many things that we have in life. Unfortunately, we as individuals don't get to make the regulations for that spending either. That's why we elect officials that plan to work towards goals that we personally are interested in. There are lobbyists to help campaign for our interests. But please understand, your taxes don't give you free reign over the rest of us. That's just not how our country works.

 

Did you vote for the idiot confiscating caches? NOPE! no one did! that's the problem. Try getting your elected representives to do something. They are too worried about thier next election to bother with some bureacratic zealot.

 

But you see that is part of our democratic system. There's no use arguing it here. You live in the country. You don't like the process, fight to change it. You have the "right" to do so. Doesn't mean you also don't have to follow laws and regulations in the meantime.

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It's amazing how much people that don't even live here seem to know all the facts. As I already explained, we have a new kid on the block that is either ignorant of our past agreement or has decided to renege on the agreed upon guidelines that we have all been following. Also as it turns out there are exactly 358 caches in the park and not over 5000 that the new kid on the block was told. Many of these caches are over six years old. To be honest some of these posts are nothing but salt in the wound. Thanks... :sad:

 

I'm sorry to hear that you have lost permission on your park land and do hope to see it resolved soon. But, this thread is about the reasons that gaining permission is a good thing, so I think the posts have all been relevant in that discussion. What happened in your area can happen in any one of our states. It's helpful to communicate just how important gaining permission is so this won't continue to happen in the future.

You and others are assumming that we didn't have permission for ABDSP without knowing the facts. The fact is that we "did" have permission.

 

We even were given these guidelines:

1. Caches must be placed within 50 feet of authorized trail.

2. No caches permitted within 200 feet of an historic or archeological site.

3. No caches permitted in, on or under any building, structure or manmade object.

4. Caches cannot be buried. (*per gc.com policy)

5. No cutting or modification of vegetation.

6. No modifying of geologic features, i.e., no moving rocks, hiding under rocks or creating cairns.

Edited by TrailGators
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But you see that is part of our democratic system. There's no use arguing it here. You live in the country. You don't like the process, fight to change it. You have the "right" to do so. Doesn't mean you also don't have to follow laws and regulations in the meantime.

 

I'm not talking about ignoring laws. I'm saying, frisbee rule. If anyone can go use the land for thier personal enjoyment, I don't NEED to ask permission to geocache. I stupid rules get implaced, then we have to start the fight to get them removed. Do you contact the city manager/mayor every time you want to walk in a local park? Maybe I need to get written permission for my kid to use the park's swingset. Maybe we should authorization to breath the air in the park.

 

We aren't going into places and hacking down trees, spraying graffitti on the rocks. We take pride in hiding something so that NOBODY knows anything is there.

 

The bureaucratic BS is a seperate but linked issue.

Edited by scuba dude
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It's amazing how much people that don't even live here seem to know all the facts. As I already explained, we have a new kid on the block that is either ignorant of our past agreement or has decided to renege on the agreed upon guidelines that we have all been following. Also as it turns out there are exactly 358 caches in the park and not over 5000 that the new kid on the block was told. Many of these caches are over six years old. To be honest some of these posts are nothing but salt in the wound. Thanks... :sad:

 

I'm sorry to hear that you have lost permission on your park land and do hope to see it resolved soon. But, this thread is about the reasons that gaining permission is a good thing, so I think the posts have all been relevant in that discussion. What happened in your area can happen in any one of our states. It's helpful to communicate just how important gaining permission is so this won't continue to happen in the future.

You are assumming that we didn't have permission for ABDSP without knowing the facts. The fact is that we "did" have permission.

 

We even were given these guidelines:

1. Caches must be placed within 50 feet of authorized trail.

2. No caches permitted within 200 feet of an historic or archeological site.

3. No caches permitted in, on or under any building, structure or manmade object.

4. Caches cannot be buried. (*per gc.com policy)

5. No cutting or modification of vegetation.

6. No modifying of geologic features, i.e., no moving rocks, hiding under rocks or creating cairns.

 

I wasn't trying to say that you didn't get permission. Please reread my posts. The title of the thread and the OP stated that permission wasn't obtained. Please direct your aggression to him.

 

But you see that is part of our democratic system. There's no use arguing it here. You live in the country. You don't like the process, fight to change it. You have the "right" to do so. Doesn't mean you also don't have to follow laws and regulations in the meantime.

 

I'm not talking about ignoring laws. I'm saying, frisbee rule. If anyone can go use the land for thier personal enjoyment, I don't NEED to ask permission to geocache. I stupid rules get implaced, then we have to start the fight to get them removed. Do you contact the city manager/mayor every time you want to walk in a local park? Maybe I need to get written permission for my kid to use the park's swingset. Maybe we should authorization to breath the air in the park.

 

We aren't going into places and hacking down trees, spraying graffitti on the rocks. We take pride in hiding something so that NOBODY knows anything is there.

 

The bureaucratic BS is a seperate but linked issue.

 

YOU might not be hacking down trees, and such, but plenty of cachers do bushwack....just look at old posts. They also overturn rocks, disturb plants and wildlife, etc. These are issues that our parks admisnistrators have to worry about. It is, after all, their job to preserve the land for future use and enjoyment.

 

When I go for a walk at a park I'm not taking an item to leave behind that the park owner might not want present. When I swing on a swingset that was constructed by the park owner, I am using equipment that was placed by the owner for a specified usage. Bringing a frisbie into the park would also suggest that I bring it out. If I did not, it would be considered littering and I could be fined for that. Again, you don't have to agree with me. The law does, however. I don't care what Groundspeak gave you for guidelines, they don't supersede the government or the land owner in a court of law when it pertains to the allowed usage of the owned land (land not owned by YOU). By the way, your taxes don't give you sole ownership to that land, it is "owned" collectively by the rest of the taxpaying population.

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YOU might not be hacking down trees, and such, but plenty of cachers do bushwack....just look at old posts. They also overturn rocks, disturb plants and wildlife, etc. These are issues that our parks admisnistrators have to worry about. It is, after all, their job to preserve the land for future use and enjoyment.

 

When I go for a walk at a park I'm not taking an item to leave behind that the park owner might not want present. When I swing on a swingset that was constructed by the park owner, I am using equipment that was placed by the owner for a specified usage. Bringing a frisbie into the park would also suggest that I bring it out. If I did not, it would be considered littering and I could be fined for that. Again, you don't have to agree with me. The law does, however. I don't care what Groundspeak gave you for guidelines, they don't supersede the government or the land owner in a court of law when it pertains to the allowed usage of the owned land (land not owned by YOU). By the way, your taxes don't give you sole ownership to that land, it is "owned" collectively by the rest of the taxpaying population.

 

Wow! you are just completely lost in your own single thought aren't you? You basically just called geocaching "littering". I think you need to stop being a $%^& house lawyer and start using your head. You are acting as if, becuase it is "public" land, "nobody" gets to use it without express written permission, signed in triplicate, and noterized.

 

Public land is public for the enjoyment of THE PEOPLE. Guess what. WE ARE THE PEOPLE. WE have just as much right to use the land for our enjoyment as any other group of people get to use it for thiers.

 

I know you don't understand this though, you have repeated the same diatribe post after post in this thread. You can live in your world, I'll live in the real one.

Edited by scuba dude
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It's amazing how much people that don't even live here seem to know all the facts. As I already explained, we have a new kid on the block that is either ignorant of our past agreement or has decided to renege on the agreed upon guidelines that we have all been following. Also as it turns out there are exactly 358 caches in the park and not over 5000 that the new kid on the block was told. Many of these caches are over six years old. To be honest some of these posts are nothing but salt in the wound. Thanks... :sad:

 

I'm sorry to hear that you have lost permission on your park land and do hope to see it resolved soon. But, this thread is about the reasons that gaining permission is a good thing, so I think the posts have all been relevant in that discussion. What happened in your area can happen in any one of our states. It's helpful to communicate just how important gaining permission is so this won't continue to happen in the future.

You are assumming that we didn't have permission for ABDSP without knowing the facts. The fact is that we "did" have permission.

 

We even were given these guidelines:

1. Caches must be placed within 50 feet of authorized trail.

2. No caches permitted within 200 feet of an historic or archeological site.

3. No caches permitted in, on or under any building, structure or manmade object.

4. Caches cannot be buried. (*per gc.com policy)

5. No cutting or modification of vegetation.

6. No modifying of geologic features, i.e., no moving rocks, hiding under rocks or creating cairns.

 

I wasn't trying to say that you didn't get permission. Please reread my posts. The title of the thread and the OP stated that permission wasn't obtained. Please direct your aggression to him.

It's not aggression. It's more like frustration because you and others keep implying that we did something wrong. I bolded what "you" wrote above. Honestly how else was I supposed to read that in the context of this thread? We had permission so you aren't going to learn to get permission from our example. In our case, you can learn that permission can be reneged at any time.
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Public land is public for the enjoyment of THE PEOPLE. Guess what. WE ARE THE PEOPLE. WE have just as much right to use the land for our enjoyment as any other group of people get to use it for thiers.

This land is your land, this land is my land

From California to the New York Island

From the Redwood Forest to the Gulf Stream waters

This land was made for you and me.

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You and others are assumming that we didn't have permission for ABDSP without knowing the facts. The fact is that we "did" have permission.

 

We even were given these guidelines:

1. Caches must be placed within 50 feet of authorized trail.

2. No caches permitted within 200 feet of an historic or archeological site.

3. No caches permitted in, on or under any building, structure or manmade object.

4. Caches cannot be buried. (*per gc.com policy)

5. No cutting or modification of vegetation.

6. No modifying of geologic features, i.e., no moving rocks, hiding under rocks or creating cairns.

WOW... who is this d-bag? I'm very curious to know what prompted the sudden change... if anything. Do we know if something specific happened?

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Wow! you are just completely lost in your own single thought aren't you? You basically just called geocaching "littering". I think you need to stop being a $%^& house lawyer and start using your head. You are acting as if, becuase it is "public" land, "nobody" gets to use it without express written permission, signed in triplicate, and noterized.

 

Public land is public for the enjoyment of THE PEOPLE. Guess what. WE ARE THE PEOPLE. WE have just as much right to use the land for our enjoyment as any other group of people get to use it for thiers.

 

I know you don't understand this though, you have repeated the same diatribe post after post in this thread. You can live in your world, I'll live in the real one.

:D:sad::sad: You're funny. Good luck with those thoughts in life. Remember your "reality" when you get escorted off of public land for doing something not allowed there just because you WANT TO and YOUR THE PEOPLE. Like I said, you don't have to agree with me, the law does. I won't be spending time in jail or paying hefty fine as I get permission where I need to.

 

It's not aggression. It's more like frustration because you and others keep implying that we did something wrong. I bolded what "you" wrote above. Honestly how else was I supposed to read that in the context of this thread? We had permission so you aren't going to learn to get permission from our example. In our case, you can learn that permission can be reneged at any time.

 

 

Numerous geocaches have been placed within the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park without authorization.

Mark C. Jorgensen

Superintendent

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park

200 Palm Canyon Drive

Borrego Springs, CA 92004

 

 

 

Apparently the superintendant of the state park doesn't agree with you. No where did I state that you did not obtain permission. If you have, show it and prove it to the park officials. Maybe things will be cleared up then. When I obtain permission, I get it in writing, just as Groundspeak suggests that I do. It's to save my back if problems arise.

 

This opinion isn't just mine, as you said the majority of posters on this thread agree. The OP stated there wasn't permission and we agree why permission should be obtained. Argument over.

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Good luck with those thoughts in life. Remember your "reality" when you get escorted off of public land for doing something not allowed there just because you WANT TO and YOUR THE PEOPLE. Like I said, you don't have to agree with me, the law does. I won't be spending time in jail or paying hefty fine as I get permission where I need to.

 

 

See, there you go again. You keep citing that the LAW agrees with YOU. Can you quote the reg and section that you keep refering to? I doubt it.

 

I don't worry about "spending time in jail." Apparently you do. And just to keep everyone here honest, why don't you post those written permission slips for the caches you have placed. As much as you profess it, surely it's right handy to post an image of. How many do you have? 15, or something like that? That should surely require permission. City land? State land? Indian land? Pretty close to Bandalier (which I enjoy hiking every time I vacation that way), maybe you need Federal permission?

 

Who did you contact? You only placed them a few months ago, so surely I could contact YOUR contact and verify that it's fine to place caches there. I wouldn't want to aide and abet a criminal activity by searching for illegal caches next time I'm in the area.

Edited by scuba dude
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You and others are assumming that we didn't have permission for ABDSP without knowing the facts. The fact is that we "did" have permission.

 

We even were given these guidelines:

1. Caches must be placed within 50 feet of authorized trail.

2. No caches permitted within 200 feet of an historic or archeological site.

3. No caches permitted in, on or under any building, structure or manmade object.

4. Caches cannot be buried. (*per gc.com policy)

5. No cutting or modification of vegetation.

6. No modifying of geologic features, i.e., no moving rocks, hiding under rocks or creating cairns.

I'm very curious to know what prompted the sudden change... if anything. Do we know if something specific happened?

We don't know for sure. All we know is that some "concerned cacher" told the superintendant that "there are over 5000 caches in the park." This is completely false and could have caused a knee-jerk reaction. We just counted this morning and there are only 358 total caches (counting virtuals, earthcaches and disabled caches) in the park. That means on average there is one cache for every 2.6 square miles of park land. Edited by TrailGators
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it *sounds* like the land manager is doing his job.

 

it sounds like he is aware of very real, and serious damage which has been caused by geocaching in the land which it's his job to manage. If it was my job to take care of something, and any group was causing harm to that thing, I'd imagine I'd react similarly.

 

A lot of people like to pretend that geocaching isn't harmful, they'll even attack anyone who suggests it, or points out cases where it is. But in some cases, as anyone should expect, sending a lot of people to the same spot day after day can create some problems in areas which can't reasonably support that.

 

I'd like to see a more managed response, and I'd imagine caches will be allowed to return with some more extensive regulation. It would seem the guy just got upset at a group which he perceives as placing their own interest above the interests of everyone else.

 

A good thread, something everyone who caches should be aware of. Place carefully, tread lightly. Everybody wins.

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I wouldn't be shocked to start seeing laws passed specifically related to geocaching.

Me neither.

 

Perhaps you've not heard of "The Recent Unpleasantness" here in SC and, unfortunately, the representative that brought that action is now a senator. As one who was in the middle of that mess I know how hard it is to stop, or even slow, the momentum of such actions especially when fighting misconceptions, if not outright lies.

 

That said, I feel the present test of "adequate permission" is best. If permission is required then get it. If not, then there's no need to pursue it. Still placers should use common sense. Somewhere in the middle is the sometimes delicate negotiations and feeling out of land stewards. Some folks have a gift of getting permission. Some folks simply should keep their silly mouths shut and find a different hiding spot.

 

There is no need to go to a blanket policy of explicit permission, much less written. You most definitely need adequate permission and should have it for each and every placement.

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You and others are assumming that we didn't have permission for ABDSP without knowing the facts. The fact is that we "did" have permission.

 

We even were given these guidelines:

1. Caches must be placed within 50 feet of authorized trail.

2. No caches permitted within 200 feet of an historic or archeological site.

3. No caches permitted in, on or under any building, structure or manmade object.

4. Caches cannot be buried. (*per gc.com policy)

5. No cutting or modification of vegetation.

6. No modifying of geologic features, i.e., no moving rocks, hiding under rocks or creating cairns.

I'm very curious to know what prompted the sudden change... if anything. Do we know if something specific happened?

We don't know for sure. All we know is that some "concerned cacher" told the superintendant that "there are over 5000 caches in the park." This is completely false and could have caused a knee-jerk reaction. We just counted this morning and there are only 358 total caches (counting virtuals, earthcaches and disabled caches) in the park. That means on average there is one cache for every 2.6 square miles of park land.

 

Good Luck Trailgators!

 

I hope you and the other local cachers can work out an agreement with the new superintendent. I know firsthand what it's like to lose access to an area, or recreational activity when a superintendent gets a "wild hair." I used to prospect for gold (pan and sluice box) in Piru Creek until the it was banned outright, by the stroke of a pen.

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Good Luck Trailgators!

 

I hope you and the other local cachers can work out an agreement with the new superintendent. I know firsthand what it's like to lose access to an area, or recreational activity when a superintendent gets a "wild hair." I used to prospect for gold (pan and sluice box) in Piru Creek until the it was banned outright, by the stroke of a pen.

 

Thanks Kit Fox. ABDSP is an awesome park! :sad:
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See, there you go again. You keep citing that the LAW agrees with YOU. Can you quote the reg and section that you keep refering to? I doubt it.

 

I don't worry about "spending time in jail." Apparently you do. And just to keep everyone here honest, why don't you post those written permission slips for the caches you have placed. As much as you profess it, surely it's right handy to post an image of. How many do you have? 15, or something like that? That should surely require permission. City land? State land? Indian land? Pretty close to Bandalier (which I enjoy hiking every time I vacation that way), maybe you need Federal permission?

 

Who did you contact? You only placed them a few months ago, so surely I could contact YOUR contact and verify that it's fine to place caches there. I wouldn't want to aide and abet a criminal activity by searching for illegal caches next time I'm in the area.

 

I'm not sure how the law wouldn't agree with me. I'm saying you have to follow the law, whatever that is in life. The regulations and rules that have been set forth by the government and property owners. I didn't site specific laws.....I said you have to follow the rules put out by those who own the land. It's not just agreeing with ME specifically, it's anyone who understands that you have to follow the law.

 

The caches I have currently placed are all in the Santa Fe National Forest Land and I didn't need to obtain written permission from them as it clearly states their regulations on the NMGeocaching website linked here :NMGecocaching policies and regulations by land owners. I have, however, obtained written documents from two other places that we will be placing caches with (one in the near future, and one that will be placed in the Spring after the snowmelt). Those letters will be submitted to Groundspeak when I list the cache. I briefly discussed those two caches in my original post, if you bothered to read it. I have followed the procedures that were required of me by Groundspeak. Do you have permission for your 8?

 

edited to add direct quotes from Geocaching.com:

 

Please make sure to obtain permission from the landowner or land manager and read the guidelines for reporting a cache (last update 02/21/07) prior to placing your geocache.

 

Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. You will be in violation of federal regulation by placing a cache in any area administered by the National Park Service (US). The National Park regulations are intended to protect the fragile environment, and historical and cultural areas found in the parks.

Edited by elmuyloco5
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YOU might not be hacking down trees, and such, but plenty of cachers do bushwack....just look at old posts. They also overturn rocks, disturb plants and wildlife, etc. These are issues that our parks admisnistrators have to worry about. It is, after all, their job to preserve the land for future use and enjoyment.

 

When I go for a walk at a park I'm not taking an item to leave behind that the park owner might not want present. When I swing on a swingset that was constructed by the park owner, I am using equipment that was placed by the owner for a specified usage. Bringing a frisbie into the park would also suggest that I bring it out. If I did not, it would be considered littering and I could be fined for that. Again, you don't have to agree with me. The law does, however. I don't care what Groundspeak gave you for guidelines, they don't supersede the government or the land owner in a court of law when it pertains to the allowed usage of the owned land (land not owned by YOU). By the way, your taxes don't give you sole ownership to that land, it is "owned" collectively by the rest of the taxpaying population.

 

Wow! you are just completely lost in your own single thought aren't you? You basically just called geocaching "littering". I think you need to stop being a $%^& house lawyer and start using your head. You are acting as if, becuase it is "public" land, "nobody" gets to use it without express written permission, signed in triplicate, and noterized.

 

Public land is public for the enjoyment of THE PEOPLE. Guess what. WE ARE THE PEOPLE. WE have just as much right to use the land for our enjoyment as any other group of people get to use it for thiers.

 

I know you don't understand this though, you have repeated the same diatribe post after post in this thread. You can live in your world, I'll live in the real one.

 

2006-01-18.gif

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it sounds like he is aware of very real, and serious damage which has been caused by geocaching in the land which it's his job to manage.
Here are some photos of the serious damage we have been doing down here.... :sad:

810e54c7-6bfa-4f65-982d-57e87465d3ad.jpg

truckpu3.jpg

22db9087-79d6-49ac-8146-9c83b776a85b.jpg

 

It seems like they would want more of that kind of damage. We've had many CITO events in ABDSP. Somehow I think this newbie doesn't realize how geocaching is a real positive force! :sad:

Edited by TrailGators
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It's amazing how much people that don't even live here seem to know all the facts. As I already explained, we have a new kid on the block that is either ignorant of our past agreement or has decided to renege on the agreed upon guidelines that we have all been following. Also as it turns out there are exactly 358 caches in the park and not over 5000 that the new kid on the block was told. Many of these caches are over six years old. To be honest some of these posts are nothing but salt in the wound. Thanks... :sad:

 

I'm sorry to hear that you have lost permission on your park land and do hope to see it resolved soon. But, this thread is about the reasons that gaining permission is a good thing, so I think the posts have all been relevant in that discussion. What happened in your area can happen in any one of our states. It's helpful to communicate just how important gaining permission is so this won't continue to happen in the future.

You and others are assumming that we didn't have permission for ABDSP without knowing the facts. The fact is that we "did" have permission.

 

We even were given these guidelines:

1. Caches must be placed within 50 feet of authorized trail.

2. No caches permitted within 200 feet of an historic or archeological site.

3. No caches permitted in, on or under any building, structure or manmade object.

4. Caches cannot be buried. (*per gc.com policy)

5. No cutting or modification of vegetation.

6. No modifying of geologic features, i.e., no moving rocks, hiding under rocks or creating cairns.

I'm getting the impression that what happened is that someone asked for permission. Perhaps in the his letter he said "There are already 5000 caches in your park and not all of them asked permission" Perhaps he desired to place a cache in a location that would have been off-limits with regard to the existing ABDSP geocaching guidelines. The ranger now has evidence that caches are being placed in violation of the agreed upon limitations. In spite of the reviewers asking each person who places a cache in ABDSP if they followed the guidelines some undoubtedly slipped through the cracks. Perhaps the cachers lied to the reviewer or were simply unaware there was an historic or archaeological site within 200 ft. Perhaps cache finders, unaware of the rules, moved some rocks to cover up the cache better than they had found it. In some places, a permit process has been put in place where the park rangers will approved the location where a cacher is placing a cache. The California State Parks probably don't have a mechanism in place to easily create such a permitting process. The fee might also me excessive since given the California State Parks budget and fee would have to offset the cost of such a program. In lieu of this and given the evidence that the existing guidelines were not 100% effective, the park superintendent has taken the easy route of banning physical caches.

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Public land is public for the enjoyment of THE PEOPLE. Guess what. WE ARE THE PEOPLE. WE have just as much right to use the land for our enjoyment as any other group of people get to use it for thiers.

This land is your land, this land is my land

From California to the New York Island

From the Redwood Forest to the Gulf Stream waters

This land was made for you and me.

 

This land is my land, it isn't your land

I've got a shotgun and you ain't got one

I'll blow your head off, if you don't get off

this land was made for me, not you

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I'm not sure how the law wouldn't agree with me. I'm saying you have to follow the law, whatever that is in life. The regulations and rules that have been set forth by the government and property owners. I didn't site specific laws.....I said you have to follow the rules put out by those who own the land. It's not just agreeing with ME specifically, it's anyone who understands that you have to follow the law.

 

The caches I have currently placed are all in the Santa Fe National Forest Land and I didn't need to obtain written permission from them as it clearly states their regulations on the NMGeocaching website linked here :NMGecocaching policies and regulations by land owners. I have, however, obtained written documents from two other places that we will be placing caches with (one in the near future, and one that will be placed in the Spring after the snowmelt). Those letters will be submitted to Groundspeak when I list the cache. I briefly discussed those two caches in my original post, if you bothered to read it. I have followed the procedures that were required of me by Groundspeak. Do you have permission for your 8?

 

For someone professing "the law" as much as you do, you sure stepped in your own pile of dung on that one!

 

NMGeocaching can't give you approval to place a cache. They simply stated that there are no regulations against it. Which is the same thing I have been saying all along. I think you need to contact your local ranger district (Española Ranger District) and obtain written permission for those caches, or else admit you don't live by your own words.

 

I have just as much permission as I need to place the caches on public land, that does not have a park ranger overseeing it, and no regulations prohibiting the placement of, searching for, or possession of caching items.

Edited by scuba dude
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Public land is public for the enjoyment of THE PEOPLE. Guess what. WE ARE THE PEOPLE. WE have just as much right to use the land for our enjoyment as any other group of people get to use it for thiers.

This land is your land, this land is my land

From California to the New York Island

From the Redwood Forest to the Gulf Stream waters

This land was made for you and me.

 

This land is my land, it isn't your land

I've got a shotgun and you ain't got one

I'll blow your head off, if you don't get off

this land was made for me, not you

 

:sad:

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I'm not sure how the law wouldn't agree with me. I'm saying you have to follow the law, whatever that is in life. The regulations and rules that have been set forth by the government and property owners. I didn't site specific laws.....I said you have to follow the rules put out by those who own the land. It's not just agreeing with ME specifically, it's anyone who understands that you have to follow the law.

 

The caches I have currently placed are all in the Santa Fe National Forest Land and I didn't need to obtain written permission from them as it clearly states their regulations on the NMGeocaching website linked here :NMGecocaching policies and regulations by land owners. I have, however, obtained written documents from two other places that we will be placing caches with (one in the near future, and one that will be placed in the Spring after the snowmelt). Those letters will be submitted to Groundspeak when I list the cache. I briefly discussed those two caches in my original post, if you bothered to read it. I have followed the procedures that were required of me by Groundspeak. Do you have permission for your 8?

 

For someone professing "the law" as much as you do, you sure stepped in your own pile of dung on that one!

 

NMGeocaching can't give you aproval to place a cache. they simply stated that there are no regulations against it. Which is the same thing I have saying all along. I think you need to contact your local ranger district and obtain written permission for those caches, or else admit you don't live by your own words.

 

I have just as much permission as I need to place the caches on public land, that does not have a park ranger overseeing it, and no regulations prohibiting the placement of, searching for, or possession of caching items.

 

NMGecocaching hasn't given me permission. They have posted the stance that the National Forest Service has on geocaching. My words were that I have written proof of the permission. It is stated on a STATE SPONSERED site. That is plenty of written proof for me legally and since they have placed that info on their website, they would be help responsible for the validity of the information. I can easily take copies of that webpage to a court with me to defend my position. This isn't Bob's Geocaching site, it's a site sponsored by our state government.

 

Groundspeak's guidelines state that you need permission in some form to place a geocache.....read the guidelines again.

 

It's apparent you intend to continue to be childish about this. I'm not going to waver on my belief that one should follow the law. You don't have to follow the law if you don't want to, just be prepared to suffer the consequences in life when you don't.

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I'm getting the impression that what happened is that someone asked for permission. Perhaps in the his letter he said "There are already 5000 caches in your park and not all of them asked permission" Perhaps he desired to place a cache in a location that would have been off-limits with regard to the existing ABDSP geocaching guidelines. The ranger now has evidence that caches are being placed in violation of the agreed upon limitations. In spite of the reviewers asking each person who places a cache in ABDSP if they followed the guidelines some undoubtedly slipped through the cracks. Perhaps the cachers lied to the reviewer or were simply unaware there was an historic or archaeological site within 200 ft. Perhaps cache finders, unaware of the rules, moved some rocks to cover up the cache better than they had found it. In some places, a permit process has been put in place where the park rangers will approved the location where a cacher is placing a cache. The California State Parks probably don't have a mechanism in place to easily create such a permitting process. The fee might also me excessive since given the California State Parks budget and fee would have to offset the cost of such a program. In lieu of this and given the evidence that the existing guidelines were not 100% effective, the park superintendent has taken the easy route of banning physical caches.
It's possible, but it's all conjecture until we get the facts. The point is that we have a great group down here. I have never witnessed or heard of any damage in ABDSP being caused by geocachers. I think we have an overzealous newbie in town. The same thing happened with another local park a few years ago and we were able to get that ironed out. Along with picking up garbage left behind by the muggles, geocachers actually help maintain trails. I've had a ranger thank me for geocachers clearing out some overgrown trails. Anyhow, we'll see what happens....
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NMGecocaching hasn't given me permission. They have posted the stance that the National Forest Service has on geocaching. My words were that I have written proof of the permission. It is stated on a STATE SPONSERED site. That is plenty of written proof for me legally and since they have placed that info on their website, they would be help responsible for the validity of the information. I can easily take copies of that webpage to a court with me to defend my position. This isn't Bob's Geocaching site, it's a site sponsored by our state government.

 

Groundspeak's guidelines state that you need permission in some form to place a geocache.....read the guidelines again.

 

It's apparent you intend to continue to be childish about this. I'm not going to waver on my belief that one should follow the law. You don't have to follow the law if you don't want to, just be prepared to suffer the consequences in life when you don't.

 

And again speak of "the law". Sorry, but you are wrong. NMgeocaching makes no claims I can find of state sponsorship or affiliation. In fact, it appear they got much of thier info from a geocache member named "RockyMtnReviewer". you have claimed over and over that you have obtained written permission to "protect your back", but yet the lands that would most likely need permission (IE lands managed by a park ranger) you have done nothing but take the word of a website. I say again, your actions and your words are FAR apart.

 

I have better things to do with my life than to argue with a hypocrit.

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I hope that the issues are resolved in ASDSP and that better understanding and communication between the park rangers and the caching community results.
Thanks. We have a good relationship with some of the rangers but a couple are hypersensitive. Sometimes communication is a "damned if you and damned if you don't" thing. As Toz pointed out this whole situation could have been caused by some poorly thought out communication by one ignorant but well-meaning cacher. That's why it's better to let a few representatives handle the communcation and that's what they are doing now. :sad:
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Here are some photos of the serious damage we have been doing down here.... :sad:

It seems like they would want more of that kind of damage. We've had many CITO events in ABDSP. Somehow I think this newbie doesn't realize how geocaching is a real positive force! :sad:

 

So, you're going to ignore the *actual* problem then?

Caches have been removed from archeological sites, paleontological areas, bighorn sheep watering sites and in sensitive caves.

 

CITO is great, but you must recognize it hasn't got a thing to do with the specific problems that prompted this action (according to the statement) Caches have been placed in areas that caused damage, according specifically to the person who's job it is to prevent that damage. Denying that, or trying to justify it causes more harm than good.

 

Until everyone involved recognizes the problem, a solution will be impossible.

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And again speak of "the law". Sorry, but you are wrong. NMgeocaching makes no claims I can find of state sponsorship or affiliation. In fact, it appear they got much of thier info from a geocache member named "RockyMtnReviewer". you have claimed over and over that you have obtained written permission to "protect your back", but yet the lands that would most likely need permission (IE lands managed by a park ranger) you have done nothing but take the word of a website. I say again, your actions and your words are FAR apart.

 

I have better things to do with my life than to argue with a hypocrit.

It would be lovely if you knew what you were talking about. I personally know the people who run the site, and know that we have state sponsorship. RockyMountainReviewer is just that, a reviewer on Groundspeak and has nothing to do with our state site other than posting once and awhile. You clearly looked at only that page that I linked and yes the info was provided by a reviewer, who is therefore a representative of Groundspeak (hence more legal protection from me). If a representative from Groundspeak is telling me that my local National Park regulations allow me to place a geocache in the area, that's plenty written proof to protect me.

 

I have the permission I need, I don't need to prove anything to you (by the way, you failed to answer whether you had for yours.....hmmm telling isn't it?) Do what you want. It's no skin off my back. We can agree to disagree and I'm happy and comfortable with the level of legal protection I have. I know I've done what was asked of me. You seem to be getting really upset about all of this (just as Princess mentioned...you're having a tantrum). Sounds like personal issues to me.

Edited by elmuyloco5
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So, you're going to ignore the *actual* problem then?
Caches have been removed from archeological sites, paleontological areas, bighorn sheep watering sites and in sensitive caves.
CITO is great, but you must recognize it hasn't got a thing to do with the specific problems that prompted this action (according to the statement) Caches have been placed in areas that caused damage, according specifically to the person who's job it is to prevent that damage. Denying that, or trying to justify it causes more harm than good.

 

Until everyone involved recognizes the problem, a solution will be impossible.

You seem to know an awful lot about the problem. Why don't you tell us some specific facts about the caches that were removed? One of the people that had a cache removed is a member of the Sierra Club. He knows darn near every species of plant and animal in the desert by it's Latin name. He would never place a cache in a sensitive area and yet one of his caches was one of the first ones removed. Can you tell me why? Is it guilty until proven innocent? Has the new guy weighed all the good versus the bad? I'm willing to bet that the good far outweighs the bad. Anyhow, like I've said several times in this thread, we now have a representative that is communicating with the new park superintendent. He will get the facts. It is possible that a couple of bad apples spoiled the bunch, but it is all speculation at this point. Should one or two bad apples spoil the bunch? What is your solution to create the perfect system that never allows a bad apple from happening on 600,000 acres of park land? Edited by TrailGators
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YOU might not be hacking down trees, and such, but plenty of cachers do bushwack....just look at old posts. They also overturn rocks, disturb plants and wildlife, etc. These are issues that our parks admisnistrators have to worry about. It is, after all, their job to preserve the land for future use and enjoyment.

 

When I go for a walk at a park I'm not taking an item to leave behind that the park owner might not want present. When I swing on a swingset that was constructed by the park owner, I am using equipment that was placed by the owner for a specified usage. Bringing a frisbie into the park would also suggest that I bring it out. If I did not, it would be considered littering and I could be fined for that. Again, you don't have to agree with me. The law does, however. I don't care what Groundspeak gave you for guidelines, they don't supersede the government or the land owner in a court of law when it pertains to the allowed usage of the owned land (land not owned by YOU). By the way, your taxes don't give you sole ownership to that land, it is "owned" collectively by the rest of the taxpaying population.

 

Wow! you are just completely lost in your own single thought aren't you? You basically just called geocaching "littering". I think you need to stop being a $%^& house lawyer and start using your head. You are acting as if, becuase it is "public" land, "nobody" gets to use it without express written permission, signed in triplicate, and noterized.

 

Public land is public for the enjoyment of THE PEOPLE. Guess what. WE ARE THE PEOPLE. WE have just as much right to use the land for our enjoyment as any other group of people get to use it for thiers.

 

I know you don't understand this though, you have repeated the same diatribe post after post in this thread. You can live in your world, I'll live in the real one.

 

I hope everyone realizes we all CAN use the lands...as long as we follow the guidelines in place. I also hope everyone realizes use of the land is a privilege and not a right....it's those who feel they can do what they want when they want where they want that make problems. Public land doesn't give you the right to do as you please.

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I hope everyone realizes we all CAN use the lands...as long as we follow the guidelines in place. I also hope everyone realizes use of the land is a privilege and not a right....it's those who feel they can do what they want when they want where they want that make problems. Public land doesn't give you the right to do as you please.
I agree. The problem is the <1% or so that don't follow the guidelines.
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This is such a great post I thought I'd share it. This was posted yesterday in one of our local threads by a cacher that has spent a large part of his life in ABDSP and knows it very well:

 

I archived my last ABDSP Geocache today. Too bad.... I know many people had fun scrambling up to get it. It seems the Park service is over-reacting to a perceived problem. The caches that they deemed inappropriate should have been dealt with on their individual issues. I'm sure the numbers in violation were few.

 

Following are some thoughts.

 

How much harm has the pursuit of finding and signing peak baggers logs caused to the terrain or trails leading to the top of our California peaks?

 

Probably not measurable due to the fact that peak baggers by nature do love the outdoors and the freedom to explore it. They appreciate the gift of nature and have no reason to harm her.

 

The mountain ridges do gain some faint hints of trails in the non rocky sections. Some of the trails are remnants from our ancient relatives.

 

Just by the difficult nature of the effort it take to get to remote places keeps out the undesirable folk who have no respect for our land and would spray paint the rocks and throw bottles and trash everywhere. Remoteness has its advantages.

 

How much terrain has been harmed by Geocachers in pursuit of finding and signing their logs?

 

Probably not measurable due to the fact that geocachers by nature do love the outdoors and the freedom to explore it. They appreciate the gift of nature and have no reason to harm her.

 

Sometimes a faint trail will occur due to the Geocaching traffic.

There are faint trails all over the desert leading to points of interest or just leading from one area to another. Animals leave trails everywhere in the desert.

Cache placement within a few feet of an existing trail or sand wash is desirable, but not always possible.

 

Remote terrain is harmed less than easily accessed terrain. This is caused by two reasons:

 

Remote caches tend to be accessed by more serious outdoorsmen who take better care of the land than some weekend warriors.

 

The physical challenge keeps traffic down to a few visits per year.

 

Easily accessed sites tend to be visited by city folks who my not appreciate what an asset our beautiful desert is. They may not understand proper trail etiquette and trample plants or cut switchbacks. They may toss wrappers on the ground or carve graffiti into plants or damage structure. Vehicles are driven off of established roads etc.

This kind of damage would be rarely caused by a typical Geocacher because:

 

Geocachers are typically mature adults or cache as families.

 

Geocachers belong to a community sharing the common pastime of Geocaching. The more experienced cachers educate the newer folks on low impact techniques for placement and finding of caches.

 

Geocachers are active outdoors people who want to cast a positive light on their activity. Many cachers are involved in cleanup and trail building projects.

 

Geocachers are not bored and in need of trashing anything to get their jollies.

 

Most geocachers have other outdoor pursuits such as hiking and backpacking which tie in with caching.

 

Many desert points of interest are fragile and need protection

An ancient native village for example is a popular spot to visit. One can wander through large rock slabs dimpled by our ancestor's activities grinding food. Pottery chards can be seen lying about. You can imagine what it must have been like to live in such a harsh environment. How should we protect this site? Should we vacuum seal it and only allow archeologists to visit? I would hope I could experience this place with my children or friends and walk through the rocks and climb about. Nothing is damaged by our visit, take nothing but memories, leave nothing, suck in the feeling this place communicates to your soul. You walk a few feet away amongst the rocks and find a Geocache container, sign the log, replace it and walk away thankful that the cache gave you reason to know that this place existed and you were lucky enough to visit it. Did the caches existence in any way harm this site? Not a chance. Did the presence of the cache diminish another visitor's experience? Not a chance. Did the cache bring in undesirables who would do harm to the site? I do not know one cacher who would harm any land.

 

Some archaeological evidence in the area is so fragile that public knowledge of its existence would surly lead to its destruction.

I have to say I am against the advertising of the find by placing a Geocache in the area. The risk of harm is too great.

 

Animal watering areas access is vital for the wildlife, especially in the summer months.

People do visit these sites, but too many people could cause the wildlife to avoid the area all together or be stressed. Geocachers numbers are insignificant compared to the general public to be of concern in 2008, but in the future the activity could grow to the point of concern. I would be against installing caches in these areas.

 

A case by case approval should be implemented by the park service. Realistic evaluation as to the real risk to the site should be used, not just arbitrary over protection of every square inch of the land. This land belongs to the American people and our future generations, and should be experienced, not placed in a vacuum wrapper where we can't touch feel and smell it.

 

Physical cache more harmful than virtual cache?

 

Is the container the real problem here? I think not. How does a container harm any delicate land, plant or structure? The traffic to an area is controlled by the cache, not what type it is. Once they ban physical caches it is an easy argument to say all caches are harmful. This is just a ploy to make us think they are willing to give us something. I would rather find a virtual cache than no cache, but what about the kids? They want to find a real cache to be interested. The impact of going a few feet off trail to hide a container is not going to ruin the desert when a little common sense is used in the placement. In some areas footprints can last for decades, and others they only last until the wind blows.

 

Question

Is it illegal to be in ABDSP and just pick a mountain and climb it if there is no trail?

If so, there are a lot of law breakers out there every weekend, and they aren't the criminal types either!

Just nature buffs doing what they love. Have they harmed the mountains? Not in the last several thousand years.

 

We have a right to explore this land. It is OUR Park. The park administrators need to understand that Geocaching will cause no harm if implemented with a "work with them" attitude in stead of a "hard line no way no how" policy.

 

Bob Dylan once said… "Don't criticize what you can't understand". Let's hope we can get some understanding from the park service.

 

I'm sure as a group, we can do the right thing to protect our land and still seek caches at beautiful spots around ABDSP.

 

Sorry for rambling!

 

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Trail Gators, good luck in getting this resolved. Until you get all of the facts the posts from most of the people in this thread, especially those who do not live in the area is conjecture. I hope you'll keep us updated.

 

I lived in Florida when we had a similar incident in 2003 when a Superintendent for a state agency that managed about 500,000 acres throughout Florida was given a lot of misinformation about Geocaching. He reacted similarly, fortunately calmer heads prevailed it took a few weeks of work to get it resolved.

 

Sounds like the current superintendent over reacted without talking to everyone involved. I'm very mystified given the fact that negotiated guidelines have been in effect for several years.

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Trail Gators, good luck in getting this resolved. Until you get all of the facts the posts from most of the people in this thread, especially those who do not live in the area is conjecture. I hope you'll keep us updated.

 

I lived in Florida when we had a similar incident in 2003 when a Superintendent for a state agency that managed about 500,000 acres throughout Florida was given a lot of misinformation about Geocaching. He reacted similarly, fortunately calmer heads prevailed it took a few weeks of work to get it resolved.

 

Sounds like the current superintendent over reacted without talking to everyone involved. I'm very mystified given the fact that negotiated guidelines have been in effect for several years.

We are all mystified as well. I guess all it takes is for someone with a different sensitivity level than the last guy to change the ballgame. I hope you are right that calmer heads will prevail. Thanks Magellan315! :sad:
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I hope everyone realizes we all CAN use the lands...as long as we follow the guidelines in place. I also hope everyone realizes use of the land is a privilege and not a right....it's those who feel they can do what they want when they want where they want that make problems. Public land doesn't give you the right to do as you please.
I agree. The problem is the <1% or so that don't follow the guidelines.

 

We are way too quick to give up our rights. I believe that I have the right to do as I please on public land provided that I am doing no harm.

 

The problem is that there are a lot of power hungry or just plain lazy bureaucrats for whom the simplest solution is to just say no. Anyone with any familiarity with how government works understands how far the local exercise of power by local bureaucrats departs from what we perceive as the democratic process.

 

It is just bizarre to me to see how placing a cache amidst 1000's of acres of desert (or forrest or grass land or whatever) should be a significant issue to anyone, particularly in consideration of other activities that are allowed.

 

Caches that are truly a problem can be dealt with.

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It will happen again I'm sure, but for every park where this happens, there is probably a park where the administration is aware of geocaching, allows it to go on, but doesn't want to be put on the spot by giving it their

official approval.

 

When you demand their sanction in these cases you too often wind up with an answer that you don't like and one they didn't want to be forced into giving.

There have been instances where the park management gave geocaching their tacit approval by ignoring it, but when a well meaning geocacher demanded their official blessing, they ruined it for everyone else.

BINGO!

I mentioned earlier I am a Parks Supervisor. I admit I oversee only a tiny fraction of the 600,000+ acres involved here, but that just means my paperwork is probably much simpler then that of the guy who oversees ABDSP.

If cacher X comes to me and asks if it's ok to hide a cache at location Y it's no problem. As far as maintenance and upkeep of the parks, I'm the guy at the top of the ladder.

Now, if you tell me you want that permission in writing we have a potential problem. I would have to bump that up to my Director. He would have to discuss it at a meeting with the parks commission. They probably will want a ruling on liability issues from our attorney. Then the board of selectmen vote on whether or not to grant a letter of permission. Chances are someone in that long line of people is going to just say "No" instead of going though all that time and money for a few geocaches. At the very least they would probably decide they needed the cache owner to provide insurance and a bond, just like we do for festivals and fairs and such that use our parks.

Trust me, this is how .gov works. The higher the level of government (local, county, state, federal) the more involved the process gets.

 

Good luck to the CA cachers. Hopefully you can either convince the new guy of the error of his ways or maybe even go right over his head.

Edited by Mopar
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