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Physical geocaches prohibited in ABDSP?


M2
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The geocache the previous post refers to, "It's in the can..." was placed within a railroad-related historic can scatter. A historic site, dating back 50+ years.
Here's a photo of what those guys may have looked like....

blazing-saddles.jpg

Kind of looks like that one feller is going to have a headache pretty soon... ;)

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The geocache the previous post refers to, "It's in the can..." was placed within a railroad-related historic can scatter. A historic site, dating back 50+ years.
Here's a photo of what those guys may have looked like....

blazing-saddles.jpg

Kind of looks like that one feller is going to have a headache pretty soon... ;)

:lol:;):lol:

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...Hmmm.... and what is the reason the cans were not cleaned up 30-40 years ago (or even 25)??? ;)

 

Back when it was litter it was remote or nobody cared enough to bother or they were too busy dumping themselves. By the time they find these things or have the ability to remove them in todays world some are historic.

 

And you know this because?!?!?...

 

Of my job.

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"They really may be a Historical Site" The shock and horror of it all. ;)

 

And do we suppose that there will be a lesson learned by the mindless ranters?

 

I sure as heck tell you this, after having read this garbage, if I was the decider, the time period for historic preservation would not be 50 years, it would be 50 minutes.

Good. Then they wouldn't be taking our historic caches.

 

The geocache the previous post refers to, "It's in the can..." was placed within a railroad-related historic can scatter. A historic site, dating back 50+ years.

 

 

I do believe that this is the first bit of info from "the other side" that would lend some credence to the claim that some caches are located in sensitive areas. I'd like to hear more.

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"They really may be a Historical Site" The shock and horror of it all. :D

 

And do we suppose that there will be a lesson learned by the mindless ranters?

 

I sure as heck tell you this, after having read this garbage, if I was the decider, the time period for historic preservation would not be 50 years, it would be 50 minutes.

Good. Then they wouldn't be taking our historic caches.

 

The geocache the previous post refers to, "It's in the can..." was placed within a railroad-related historic can scatter. A historic site, dating back 50+ years.

Without public education, signs, etc. how is a layperson to know the differnece between a pile of old cans, stacked rocks, water pond, indentations in a rock, etc that are historic/sensitive and those that aren't. Keeping them secret just leaves it up to an uneducated individual to make that decision for themselvs. Geocacher or not, some 'do gooder' (like my daughters an me) would come along and find this cans and think garbage and 'clean it up' thinking I'm doing a good thing, when we'd actually be commiting a crime by altering an historic artifact.

 

I stopped my girls before they dismanted a carn the last time we were out hiking in the backcountry (no where near a geocache). They thought some people had built it as a joke and wanted to return the area to a more 'natural' look. I have no idea if it was native american built or not. From my professional geologic eye I could just tell they didn't get that way naturally. :P

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....

Without public education, signs, etc. how is a layperson to know the differnece between a pile of old cans, stacked rocks, water pond, indentations in a rock, etc that are historic/sensitive and those that aren't. Keeping them secret just leaves it up to an uneducated individual to make that decision for themselvs. Geocacher or not, some 'do gooder' (like my daughters an me) would come along and find this cans and think garbage and 'clean it up' thinking I'm doing a good thing, when we'd actually be commiting a crime by altering an historic artifact.

 

I stopped my girls before they dismanted a carn the last time we were out hiking in the backcountry (no where near a geocache). They thought some people had built it as a joke and wanted to return the area to a more 'natural' look. I have no idea if it was native american built or not. From my professional geologic eye I could just tell they didn't get that way naturally. :D

When you think about it they would have to train their volunteers else they would do exactly that. Clean up an old ugly dump site.

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The geocache the previous post refers to, "It's in the can..." was placed within a railroad-related historic can scatter. A historic site, dating back 50+ years.

 

I do believe that this is the first bit of info from "the other side" that would lend some credence to the claim that some caches are located in sensitive areas. I'd like to hear more.

I would like to hear more also . . .

 

And, even though we have been informed that at least one cache was located in a "sensitive area," it still does not explain why this change in policy was handled in such a rude, unprofessional manner. If Notaranger is still lurking in this thread, I would like to know why there was such a rush to make this change during the busy Holiday Season?

 

Why wasn't Groundspeak notified if a cache was discovered to be in a "sensitive area?" Michael would have Archived any such cache immediately.

 

Why have other caches, not located in "sensitive areas" been removed? Why weren't cache owners given some notice and allowed to retrieve their property? And why haven't "Notes" been posted on cache pages when caches have been removed. "Notes" would inform the cache owner and cachers there is no cache to be found. People continue to look for missing caches because they do not know the container has been removed. :D

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"They really may be a Historical Site" The shock and horror of it all. :D

 

And do we suppose that there will be a lesson learned by the mindless ranters?

 

I sure as heck tell you this, after having read this garbage, if I was the decider, the time period for historic preservation would not be 50 years, it would be 50 minutes.

Good. Then they wouldn't be taking our historic caches.

 

The geocache the previous post refers to, "It's in the can..." was placed within a railroad-related historic can scatter. A historic site, dating back 50+ years.

Without public education, signs, etc. how is a layperson to know the differnece between a pile of old cans, stacked rocks, water pond, indentations in a rock, etc that are historic/sensitive and those that aren't. Keeping them secret just leaves it up to an uneducated individual to make that decision for themselvs. Geocacher or not, some 'do gooder' (like my daughters an me) would come along and find this cans and think garbage and 'clean it up' thinking I'm doing a good thing, when we'd actually be commiting a crime by altering an historic artifact.

 

I stopped my girls before they dismanted a carn the last time we were out hiking in the backcountry (no where near a geocache). They thought some people had built it as a joke and wanted to return the area to a more 'natural' look. I have no idea if it was native american built or not. From my professional geologic eye I could just tell they didn't get that way naturally. :P

 

It is pretty easy. Leave it alone. We're not talking about a couple of coke cans and a snickers wrapper. I call it common sense.

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...We're not talking about a couple of coke cans and a snickers wrapper....

 

That's trash and yes we are talking about trash.

 

If there are historic trash dumps and trash dumps we need to clean up, it helps for public to know the difference and why exactly there is difference.

 

“railroad-related historic can scatter” means “Rail Road Related Litter old enough to be historic as it’s an example of the kind of litter common to Rail Roads back in the day”

 

Oh and if this was in your back yard, you could pick it all up and throw it away. No harm no foul. Unless California has passed the Historic Rail Road Can Scatter protection act.

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"They really may be a Historical Site" The shock and horror of it all. :D

 

And do we suppose that there will be a lesson learned by the mindless ranters?

 

I sure as heck tell you this, after having read this garbage, if I was the decider, the time period for historic preservation would not be 50 years, it would be 50 minutes.

Good. Then they wouldn't be taking our historic caches.

 

The geocache the previous post refers to, "It's in the can..." was placed within a railroad-related historic can scatter. A historic site, dating back 50+ years.

Without public education, signs, etc. how is a layperson to know the differnece between a pile of old cans, stacked rocks, water pond, indentations in a rock, etc that are historic/sensitive and those that aren't. Keeping them secret just leaves it up to an uneducated individual to make that decision for themselvs. Geocacher or not, some 'do gooder' (like my daughters an me) would come along and find this cans and think garbage and 'clean it up' thinking I'm doing a good thing, when we'd actually be commiting a crime by altering an historic artifact.

 

I stopped my girls before they dismanted a carn the last time we were out hiking in the backcountry (no where near a geocache). They thought some people had built it as a joke and wanted to return the area to a more 'natural' look. I have no idea if it was native american built or not. From my professional geologic eye I could just tell they didn't get that way naturally. :P

It is pretty easy. Leave it alone. We're not talking about a couple of coke cans and a snickers wrapper. I call it common sense.

I think you missed the point. Muggle children of muggle campers and hikers could easily mess with rock piles/other historical sites because they don't know any better. However, geocachers would be less likely to mess with these sites because we follow the park's geocaching guidelines, which help to educate our community. It's not foolproof but it's a lot better than what Joe-Public has, which is nothing. I also disagree with just using common sense. Common sense would never tell you that a pile of rusty old cans was a historic site. That is something that has to be learned. A geocache could actually be used as a vehicle to educate people and enhance visiting these historic sites. However, I think the archaelogists/rangers fear that telling people about these sites would cause some people to run out and grab a rusty can for their coffee table. So they would prefer that nobody even know about these sites to help preserve them. But if people can't enjoy those sites then what's the point? Edited by TrailGators
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ARCHAEOLOGY WEEKEND

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park Visitor Center

Borrego Springs, California

February 2-3, 2008

 

 

This will be one action and information packed weekend - a celebration of 75 years of archaeology in the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. There will be field trips, displays, activities for kids, lectures, tours, basket weaving and pottery demonstrations, a free ice cream social and even a silent auction. And on Saturday night there will be a special campfire event with Native American story telling and gourd singing.

 

Come on down!

Link to comment

ARCHAEOLOGY WEEKEND

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park Visitor Center

Borrego Springs, California

February 2-3, 2008

 

 

This will be one action and information packed weekend - a celebration of 75 years of archaeology in the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. There will be field trips, displays, activities for kids, lectures, tours, basket weaving and pottery demonstrations, a free ice cream social and even a silent auction. And on Saturday night there will be a special campfire event with Native American story telling and gourd singing.

 

Come on down!

Can cachers pick up their cache containers and log books? That would be a very nice gesture on your part. These items have significant historical value to our group.

Edited by FlagMan
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"They really may be a Historical Site" The shock and horror of it all. :unsure:

 

And do we suppose that there will be a lesson learned by the mindless ranters?

 

I sure as heck tell you this, after having read this garbage, if I was the decider, the time period for historic preservation would not be 50 years, it would be 50 minutes.

Good. Then they wouldn't be taking our historic caches.

 

The geocache the previous post refers to, "It's in the can..." was placed within a railroad-related historic can scatter. A historic site, dating back 50+ years.

Without public education, signs, etc. how is a layperson to know the differnece between a pile of old cans, stacked rocks, water pond, indentations in a rock, etc that are historic/sensitive and those that aren't. Keeping them secret just leaves it up to an uneducated individual to make that decision for themselvs. Geocacher or not, some 'do gooder' (like my daughters an me) would come along and find this cans and think garbage and 'clean it up' thinking I'm doing a good thing, when we'd actually be commiting a crime by altering an historic artifact.

 

I stopped my girls before they dismanted a carn the last time we were out hiking in the backcountry (no where near a geocache). They thought some people had built it as a joke and wanted to return the area to a more 'natural' look. I have no idea if it was native american built or not. From my professional geologic eye I could just tell they didn't get that way naturally. :unsure:

It is pretty easy. Leave it alone. We're not talking about a couple of coke cans and a snickers wrapper. I call it common sense.

I think you missed the point. Muggle children of muggle campers and hikers could easily mess with rock piles/other historical sites because they don't know any better. However, geocachers would be less likely to mess with these sites because we follow the park's geocaching guidelines, which help to educate our community. It's not foolproof but it's a lot better than what Joe-Public has, which is nothing. I also disagree with just using common sense. Common sense would never tell you that a pile of rusty old cans was a historic site. That is something that has to be learned. A geocache could actually be used as a vehicle to educate people and enhance visiting these historic sites. However, I think the archaelogists/rangers fear that telling people about these sites would cause some people to run out and grab a rusty can for their coffee table. So they would prefer that nobody even know about these sites to help preserve them. But if people can't enjoy those sites then what's the point?

 

No, I haven't missed any point. Historic preservation has been no particular problem in this country or ABDSP. This is true now as it has been for hundreds of years. In fact historic preservation seems to have been carried on relatively well prior to the word geocache being uttered for the first time.

When I first saw those large cans in the setting where they were located, and their obvious age, I and even you knew that those were no insignificant pile of trash needing the special attention of a CITO to take care of.

You and about 15 others need to get over yourselves and show a significantly more mature and responsible attitude with regard to these issues.

 

I enjoy goecaching as much or more than the next guy. I have however somehow managed avoid it affecting my ability to reason and behave as a responsible adult. Historic locations are preserved for everyone to enjoy and that has been being successfully carried on in this country for decade after decade.

These fantastic contrived outcomes exist only in your self-serving mind's eye and nowhere else.

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"They really may be a Historical Site" The shock and horror of it all. :unsure:

 

And do we suppose that there will be a lesson learned by the mindless ranters?

 

I sure as heck tell you this, after having read this garbage, if I was the decider, the time period for historic preservation would not be 50 years, it would be 50 minutes.

Good. Then they wouldn't be taking our historic caches.

 

The geocache the previous post refers to, "It's in the can..." was placed within a railroad-related historic can scatter. A historic site, dating back 50+ years.

Without public education, signs, etc. how is a layperson to know the differnece between a pile of old cans, stacked rocks, water pond, indentations in a rock, etc that are historic/sensitive and those that aren't. Keeping them secret just leaves it up to an uneducated individual to make that decision for themselvs. Geocacher or not, some 'do gooder' (like my daughters an me) would come along and find this cans and think garbage and 'clean it up' thinking I'm doing a good thing, when we'd actually be commiting a crime by altering an historic artifact.

 

I stopped my girls before they dismanted a carn the last time we were out hiking in the backcountry (no where near a geocache). They thought some people had built it as a joke and wanted to return the area to a more 'natural' look. I have no idea if it was native american built or not. From my professional geologic eye I could just tell they didn't get that way naturally. :unsure:

It is pretty easy. Leave it alone. We're not talking about a couple of coke cans and a snickers wrapper. I call it common sense.

I think you missed the point. Muggle children of muggle campers and hikers could easily mess with rock piles/other historical sites because they don't know any better. However, geocachers would be less likely to mess with these sites because we follow the park's geocaching guidelines, which help to educate our community. It's not foolproof but it's a lot better than what Joe-Public has, which is nothing. I also disagree with just using common sense. Common sense would never tell you that a pile of rusty old cans was a historic site. That is something that has to be learned. A geocache could actually be used as a vehicle to educate people and enhance visiting these historic sites. However, I think the archaelogists/rangers fear that telling people about these sites would cause some people to run out and grab a rusty can for their coffee table. So they would prefer that nobody even know about these sites to help preserve them. But if people can't enjoy those sites then what's the point?

 

No, I haven't missed any point. Historic preservation has been no particular problem in this country or ABDSP. This is true now as it has been for hundreds of years. In fact historic preservation seems to have been carried on relatively well prior to the word geocache being uttered for the first time.

When I first saw those large cans in the setting where they were located, and their obvious age, I and even you knew that those were no insignificant pile of trash needing the special attention of a CITO to take care of.

You and about 15 others need to get over yourselves and show a significantly more mature and responsible attitude with regard to these issues.

 

I enjoy goecaching as much or more than the next guy. I have however somehow managed avoid it affecting my ability to reason and behave as a responsible adult. Historic locations are preserved for everyone to enjoy and that has been being successfully carried on in this country for decade after decade.

These fantastic contrived outcomes exist only in your self-serving mind's eye and nowhere else.

"historic locations are preserved for everyone to enjoy" All you folks that enjoy that type of thing need to get out to ABDSP and see this historic pile of discarded cans. You certainly won't be disappointed. OH PLEASE.

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....No, I haven't missed any point. ...When I first saw those large cans in the setting where they were located, and their obvious age, I and even you knew that those were no insignificant pile of trash needing the special attention of a CITO to take care of....I have however somehow managed avoid it affecting my ability to reason and behave as a responsible adult. Historic locations are preserved for everyone to enjoy and that has been being successfully carried on in this country for decade after decade.

These fantastic contrived outcomes exist only in your self-serving mind's eye and nowhere else.

 

Yeah you did. Sometimes old cans are just that. Old cans. There has to be something significant for them to be noteworthy enough to be historic. While you may have a knack for telling which pile of junk is the real deal and which is historic and worthy of preservation, most don't. Most are the average Joe's in this country. The citizens who use the park. Your ability to not understand certain simple concepts, tell people they can't do what they have done and think you are right just tells me that you have much more to learn than you think you do.

 

You can educate with what you do know or you can concoct your troll like posts and accuse some pretty good folks about about concocting self serving posts. Your call. Be Careful though. You have been dead wrong on a few things that you were absolutely certain about and it would not do for a reasonable adult to express as fact things that are incorrect.

 

So can a regular person confuse a historic scatter of litter for litter? Yes. It's up to you to come to an understanding of why since your reality is out of kilter and not TrailGaitors.

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ARCHAEOLOGY WEEKEND

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park Visitor Center

Borrego Springs, California

February 2-3, 2008

 

 

This will be one action and information packed weekend - a celebration of 75 years of archaeology in the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. There will be field trips, displays, activities for kids, lectures, tours, basket weaving and pottery demonstrations, a free ice cream social and even a silent auction. And on Saturday night there will be a special campfire event with Native American story telling and gourd singing.

 

Come on down!

Can cachers pick up their cache containers and log books? That would be a very nice gesture on your part. These items have significant historical value to our group.

 

Cachers should go. It's a chance to ask questions and learn. While it's not exactly what you may have been asking about. it is an olive branch of sorts and lets you put a face to the park. That by itself will make for a lot of progress in communicating.

Link to comment

ARCHAEOLOGY WEEKEND

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park Visitor Center

Borrego Springs, California

February 2-3, 2008

 

 

This will be one action and information packed weekend - a celebration of 75 years of archaeology in the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. There will be field trips, displays, activities for kids, lectures, tours, basket weaving and pottery demonstrations, a free ice cream social and even a silent auction. And on Saturday night there will be a special campfire event with Native American story telling and gourd singing.

 

Come on down!

Can cachers pick up their cache containers and log books? That would be a very nice gesture on your part. These items have significant historical value to our group.

 

Cachers should go. It's a chance to ask questions and learn. While it's not exactly what you may have been asking about. it is an olive branch of sorts and lets you put a face to the park. That by itself will make for a lot of progress in communicating.

 

 

Unfortunately for your containers etc.... it is not park staff removing these caches you speak of.

Link to comment

ARCHAEOLOGY WEEKEND

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park Visitor Center

Borrego Springs, California

February 2-3, 2008

 

 

This will be one action and information packed weekend - a celebration of 75 years of archaeology in the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. There will be field trips, displays, activities for kids, lectures, tours, basket weaving and pottery demonstrations, a free ice cream social and even a silent auction. And on Saturday night there will be a special campfire event with Native American story telling and gourd singing.

 

Come on down!

Can cachers pick up their cache containers and log books? That would be a very nice gesture on your part. These items have significant historical value to our group.

 

Cachers should go. It's a chance to ask questions and learn. While it's not exactly what you may have been asking about. it is an olive branch of sorts and lets you put a face to the park. That by itself will make for a lot of progress in communicating.

 

 

Unfortunately for your containers etc.... it is not park staff removing these caches you speak of.

But from what we saw in the volunteer's newsletter, and confirmed by a volunteer that caches, the practice is endorsed by the Park staff. Is it presumptious to believe the Park staff has the authority to stop said action and/or have the containers turned over to the Park staff for them to make the containers available for it's owners to pick them up?

Link to comment

ARCHAEOLOGY WEEKEND

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park Visitor Center

Borrego Springs, California

February 2-3, 2008

 

 

This will be one action and information packed weekend - a celebration of 75 years of archaeology in the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. There will be field trips, displays, activities for kids, lectures, tours, basket weaving and pottery demonstrations, a free ice cream social and even a silent auction. And on Saturday night there will be a special campfire event with Native American story telling and gourd singing.

 

Come on down!

Can cachers pick up their cache containers and log books? That would be a very nice gesture on your part. These items have significant historical value to our group.

 

Cachers should go. It's a chance to ask questions and learn. While it's not exactly what you may have been asking about. it is an olive branch of sorts and lets you put a face to the park. That by itself will make for a lot of progress in communicating.

 

Yeah, like that's gonna happen. There's none of these kind caching folk gonna be showing their faces at ABDSP for a whle, that's for sure. And the few who might go there, are going to be next to invisible as they grab their remaining Tupperware and depart.

 

The last thing that they want is to meet those thoughtless, cache removing, history ignorant bullies....face to face. And trust me, that is a good thing for the game of geocaching.

 

I do suppose that you have seen the photos of their party loving volunteer staff. A dangerous crew if there ever was one.

 

Cachers should absolutely not go. Unless they clear it with MissJenn in advance.

Edited by Team Cotati
Link to comment

ARCHAEOLOGY WEEKEND

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park Visitor Center

Borrego Springs, California

February 2-3, 2008

 

 

This will be one action and information packed weekend - a celebration of 75 years of archaeology in the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. There will be field trips, displays, activities for kids, lectures, tours, basket weaving and pottery demonstrations, a free ice cream social and even a silent auction. And on Saturday night there will be a special campfire event with Native American story telling and gourd singing.

 

Come on down!

Can cachers pick up their cache containers and log books? That would be a very nice gesture on your part. These items have significant historical value to our group.

 

Cachers should go. It's a chance to ask questions and learn. While it's not exactly what you may have been asking about. it is an olive branch of sorts and lets you put a face to the park. That by itself will make for a lot of progress in communicating.

 

Yeah, like that's gonna happen. There's none of these kind caching folk gonna be showing their faces at ABDSP for a whle, that's for sure. And the few who might go there, are going to be next to invisible as they grab their remaining Tupperware and depart.

 

The last thing that they want is to meet those thoughtless, cache removing, history ignorant bullies....face to face. And trust me, that is a good thing for the game of geocaching.

 

I do suppose that you have seen the photos of their party loving volunteer staff. A dangerous crew if there ever was one.

 

Cachers should absolutely not go. Unless they clear it with MissJenn in advance.

:D:smile:

Has there ever been a comment that you have made on these boards that is not negative? Just curious, because I don't like to judge people I have never met, but you seem like a total a-hole. Especially to have so strong opinions about something that doesn't even effect you. IMHO.....

Edited by Eric and Hill
Link to comment

ARCHAEOLOGY WEEKEND

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park Visitor Center

Borrego Springs, California

February 2-3, 2008

 

 

This will be one action and information packed weekend - a celebration of 75 years of archaeology in the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. There will be field trips, displays, activities for kids, lectures, tours, basket weaving and pottery demonstrations, a free ice cream social and even a silent auction. And on Saturday night there will be a special campfire event with Native American story telling and gourd singing.

 

Come on down!

Can cachers pick up their cache containers and log books? That would be a very nice gesture on your part. These items have significant historical value to our group.

 

Cachers should go. It's a chance to ask questions and learn. While it's not exactly what you may have been asking about. it is an olive branch of sorts and lets you put a face to the park. That by itself will make for a lot of progress in communicating.

 

Yeah, like that's gonna happen. There's none of these kind caching folk gonna be showing their faces at ABDSP for a whle, that's for sure. And the few who might go there, are going to be next to invisible as they grab their remaining Tupperware and depart.

 

The last thing that they want is to meet those thoughtless, cache removing, history ignorant bullies....face to face. And trust me, that is a good thing for the game of geocaching.

 

I do suppose that you have seen the photos of their party loving volunteer staff. A dangerous crew if there ever was one.

 

Cachers should absolutely not go. Unless they clear it with MissJenn in advance.

:D:smile:

Has there ever been a comment that you have made on these boards that is not negative? Just curious, because I don't like to judge people I have never met, but you seem like a total a-hole. Especially to have so strong opinions about something that doesn't even effect you. IMHO.....

 

The image that the public and state park managers and volunteer staff might have wrt geocaching most definately does affect me. That I feel so passionate in that regard ought not be viewed as a threat by you or anyone else. You'd be better served, in my opinion, worring yourself with those who so proudly gave that embarrassing rant wrt those "rusty old cans". But no, they are your partners in the betterment of the game.

 

I hope that you all really enjoy the "campfire event", Native American sing-along and ice cream.

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Has there ever been a comment that you have made on these boards that is not negative? Just curious, because I don't like to judge people I have never met, but you seem like a total a-hole. Especially to have so strong opinions about something that doesn't even effect you. IMHO.....

 

The image that the public and state park managers and volunteer staff might have wrt geocaching most definately does affect me. That I feel so passionate in that regard ought not be viewed as a threat by you or anyone else. You'd be better served, in my opinion, worring yourself with those who so proudly gave that embarrassing rant wrt those "rusty old cans". But no, they are your partners in the betterment of the game.

 

I hope that you all really enjoy the "campfire event", Native American sing-along and ice cream.

 

you just proved eric and hill right.

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...But from what we saw in the volunteer's newsletter, and confirmed by a volunteer that caches, the practice is endorsed by the Park staff. Is it presumptious to believe the Park staff has the authority to stop said action and/or have the containers turned over to the Park staff for them to make the containers available for it's owners to pick them up?

 

Generally that's the law when it comes to abandoned property. Caches are not abandoned but that particular law is broad enough to cover caches in most jurisdictions. Litter is the wrong law (again the specific wording for this jurisdiction is key, but in general caches don't fit most litter laws) based on discussions with an Assistant US District Attorney that I've had on another matter related to caching.

 

Just as there is no higher purpose for caches to annoy park staff over the issue, there is no higher purpose to park staff annoying their caching public.

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...Unfortunately for your containers etc.... it is not park staff removing these caches you speak of.

 

Since caches are personal property it would help if park staff would educate the volunteers that should they should follow the proper laws in regards to the personal property.

 

Failure to do so puts them at risk* of being prosecuted for theft. The odds are slim of course because the value of any one cache is small. However I can't stress enough that it is theft and it's prosecutable under the law. They need to follow the correct process. That process is most likely abandoned property (though caches are not abandoned).

 

As I said in a prior post, I have spoken with an Assistant US District Attorney on the issue regarding another matter. I suspect the important points of the law that applied to the theft of caches in that matter would apply on a broader scale.

 

*It's a small risk. Most cacher owners would not do the leg work to chase this down. The police won't really care about any one cache. Hundreds of them though may have enough cumulative value to get their interest if dozens of cache owners start reporting the thefts.

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...But from what we saw in the volunteer's newsletter, and confirmed by a volunteer that caches, the practice is endorsed by the Park staff. Is it presumptious to believe the Park staff has the authority to stop said action and/or have the containers turned over to the Park staff for them to make the containers available for it's owners to pick them up?

 

Generally that's the law when it comes to abandoned property. Caches are not abandoned but that particular law is broad enough to cover caches in most jurisdictions. Litter is the wrong law (again the specific wording for this jurisdiction is key, but in general caches don't fit most litter laws) based on discussions with an Assistant US District Attorney that I've had on another matter related to caching.

 

Just as there is no higher purpose for caches to annoy park staff over the issue, there is no higher purpose to park staff annoying their caching public.

 

I'm curious why Renegade Knight and Team Cotati who I assume live in Idaho and Northern California have become experts on ABDSP? I guess I'ts their right to use the forums, but this is more of a local issue for cachers who use the Anza Borrego Desert State Park. Would you two please explain this for me.

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:drama:-->

QUOTE(Chuck B @ Feb 1 2008, 12:57 PM) 3293508[/snapback]

...I'm curious why Renegade Knight and Team Cotati who I assume live in Idaho and Northern California have become experts on ABDSP? I guess I'ts their right to use the forums, but this is more of a local issue for cachers who use the Anza Borrego Desert State Park. Would you two please explain this for me.

 

It's an interesting topic. Expert in ABDSP? Not at all. Working with ABDSP to solve the problem? That's for locals. Knowledgeable about some of the issues in general? Yes. Locals can use that info or not as they see fit. As an interesting topic I do learn, and ask questions of people who are experts in key fields such as Archaeology which further helps my understanding. Then next time a topic like this comes up I know more than I did before. If it ever does come up locally I'll be much better off when my turn to tackle a tough issue comes up.

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This topic has drawn a lot of interest throughout the country because others are worried about the same thing happening to them and what they can learn from it so it doesn't happen to them. The vast majority of people across the country are all wishing us luck... :drama:

Edited by TrailGators
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:drama:-->

QUOTE(Chuck B @ Feb 1 2008, 11:57 AM) 3293508[/snapback]

...But from what we saw in the volunteer's newsletter, and confirmed by a volunteer that caches, the practice is endorsed by the Park staff. Is it presumptious to believe the Park staff has the authority to stop said action and/or have the containers turned over to the Park staff for them to make the containers available for it's owners to pick them up?

 

Generally that's the law when it comes to abandoned property. Caches are not abandoned but that particular law is broad enough to cover caches in most jurisdictions. Litter is the wrong law (again the specific wording for this jurisdiction is key, but in general caches don't fit most litter laws) based on discussions with an Assistant US District Attorney that I've had on another matter related to caching.

 

Just as there is no higher purpose for caches to annoy park staff over the issue, there is no higher purpose to park staff annoying their caching public.

 

I'm curious why Renegade Knight and Team Cotati who I assume live in Idaho and Northern California have become experts on ABDSP? I guess I'ts their right to use the forums, but this is more of a local issue for cachers who use the Anza Borrego Desert State Park. Would you two please explain this for me.

 

I find RK comments to be helpful in the discussion of the park, all of TC's are just snide and condescending and do not add anything.

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:drama:--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chuck B @ Feb 1 2008, 11:57 AM) 3293508[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->

...But from what we saw in the volunteer's newsletter, and confirmed by a volunteer that caches, the practice is endorsed by the Park staff. Is it presumptious to believe the Park staff has the authority to stop said action and/or have the containers turned over to the Park staff for them to make the containers available for it's owners to pick them up?

 

Generally that's the law when it comes to abandoned property. Caches are not abandoned but that particular law is broad enough to cover caches in most jurisdictions. Litter is the wrong law (again the specific wording for this jurisdiction is key, but in general caches don't fit most litter laws) based on discussions with an Assistant US District Attorney that I've had on another matter related to caching.

 

Just as there is no higher purpose for caches to annoy park staff over the issue, there is no higher purpose to park staff annoying their caching public.

 

I'm curious why Renegade Knight and Team Cotati who I assume live in Idaho and Northern California have become experts on ABDSP? I guess I'ts their right to use the forums, but this is more of a local issue for cachers who use the Anza Borrego Desert State Park. Would you two please explain this for me.

 

I find RK comments to be helpful in the discussion of the park, all of TC's are just snide and condescending and do not add anything.

 

Amen to that!!!!

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:drama:--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chuck B @ Feb 1 2008, 11:57 AM) 3293508[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->

...But from what we saw in the volunteer's newsletter, and confirmed by a volunteer that caches, the practice is endorsed by the Park staff. Is it presumptious to believe the Park staff has the authority to stop said action and/or have the containers turned over to the Park staff for them to make the containers available for it's owners to pick them up?

 

Generally that's the law when it comes to abandoned property. Caches are not abandoned but that particular law is broad enough to cover caches in most jurisdictions. Litter is the wrong law (again the specific wording for this jurisdiction is key, but in general caches don't fit most litter laws) based on discussions with an Assistant US District Attorney that I've had on another matter related to caching.

 

Just as there is no higher purpose for caches to annoy park staff over the issue, there is no higher purpose to park staff annoying their caching public.

 

I'm curious why Renegade Knight and Team Cotati who I assume live in Idaho and Northern California have become experts on ABDSP? I guess I'ts their right to use the forums, but this is more of a local issue for cachers who use the Anza Borrego Desert State Park. Would you two please explain this for me.

 

From Post #373:

 

"The image that the public and state park managers and volunteer staff might have wrt geocaching most definately does affect me. That I feel so passionate in that regard ought not be viewed as a threat by you or anyone else. You'd be better served, in my opinion, worring yourself with those who so proudly gave that embarrassing rant wrt those "rusty old cans". But no, they are your partners in the betterment of the game."

 

This is about all that you are going to get. I cache where ever my travels carry me and I will continue to do so. I'd just as soon not have to deal with the negative fallout that people create when they tick-off the land managers, park rangers, rent-a-cops, district attorneys and the local citizenry by their careless, cavalier and holier than thou attitudes.

 

The fact that I see this more and more month to month, year to year is cause for concern. The fact that many in here see it as some monsterous unsolvable problem bothers me. That they use such silly notions and behaviors does not bode well for the future. Only being concerned over one's narrow self-interest accomplishes nothing.

 

You don't think that the managers and rangers at ABDSP and their volunteer staff aren't going to be spreading the word on these events? Not a chance. What is likely the most exciting event in these rangers working lives to date and they haven't already been telling their associates all over? Believe that if you want, rationality says otherwise. We've seen in writing what the volunteers think of geocaching. I'd recommend just a tad of introspection with regard to why, what seem to be perfectly reasonable people in most regards, have somehow managed to develop a near hatred for the geocaching community.

 

Continuing to shoot the messenger is of course a first good step.

 

And if those folk are in fact reading these posts as some have conjured, you tell me what message the "rusty can" and district attorney rants will deliver. I can sure as heckfire tell you that if I was a manager down there, I'd take that as an insult and challenge and considering exactly who is in the driver's seat up to this point in time, I think that the result of something like that happening is totally predictable.

 

Carry-on cachers.

Edited by Team Cotati
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I find RK comments to be helpful in the discussion of the park, all of TC's are just snide and condescending and do not add anything.

Sorry Hottie, I have the same perception about your snide/condescending comments. Well, maybe not all of your comments, but certainly the majority. Tact and humility tend to win people over; give it a try.

Edited by Chuy!
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I find RK comments to be helpful in the discussion of the park, all of TC's are just snide and condescending and do not add anything.

Sorry Hottie, I have the same perception about your snide/condescending comments. Well, maybe not all of your comments, but certainly the majority. Tact and humility tend to win people over; give it a try.
I feel the same way. He'd be wise to pick up a copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People and read it because he rubs a lot of people the wrong way in the forums. Right or wrong if you have an abrasive delivery nobody is going to listen to you.
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I find RK comments to be helpful in the discussion of the park, all of TC's are just snide and condescending and do not add anything.

Sorry Hottie, I have the same perception about your snide/condescending comments. Well, maybe not all of your comments, but certainly the majority. Tact and humility tend to win people over; give it a try.
I feel the same way. He'd be wise to pick up a copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People and read it because he rubs a lot of people the wrong way in the forums. Right or wrong if you have an abrasive delivery nobody is going to listen to you.

Bingo!!! Seems like it's becoming unanimous. All in favor. (deafening roar) Opposed ( )

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I'd recommend just a tad of introspection with regard to why, what seem to be perfectly reasonable people in most regards, have somehow managed to develop a near hatred for the geocaching community.

 

Maybe geocaching doesn't fit into their (the volunteers) myopic view of what is "right" for public lands such as ABDSP. God forbids we let the public use public lands.

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I'd recommend just a tad of introspection with regard to why, what seem to be perfectly reasonable people in most regards, have somehow managed to develop a near hatred for the geocaching community.

 

Maybe geocaching doesn't fit into their (the volunteers) myopic view of what is "right" for public lands such as ABDSP. God forbids we let the public use public lands.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. I had heard that ABDSP was a members only park but quite frankly, up until this very moment, I didn't really believe it.

 

BTW, I think that you ought to drop the 's'.

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Negotiations with Government Employees (Civil Servants) is fruitless. They do not respond to common sense arguments or logic. Civil Servants ONLY respond to political pressure. Discussions should be with Elected Officials.

 

Civil Servents Always Respond to political pressure since that's what drives the entire public system. They do however have wide discressesion. If they can 'ban something' they can 'unban' something. Especially something so trivial as caching. You do have to speak to the person willing to champion your cause and that persion has to have the power to effect the change.

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Negotiations with Government Employees (Civil Servants) is fruitless. They do not respond to common sense arguments or logic. Civil Servants ONLY respond to political pressure. Discussions should be with Elected Officials.

 

Civil Servents Always Respond to political pressure since that's what drives the entire public system. They do however have wide discressesion. If they can 'ban something' they can 'unban' something. Especially something so trivial as caching. You do have to speak to the person willing to champion your cause and that persion has to have the power to effect the change.

 

And that person is unlikely to be pushing a lawn mower or trimming the hedges.

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Negotiations with Government Employees (Civil Servants) is fruitless. They do not respond to common sense arguments or logic. Civil Servants ONLY respond to political pressure. Discussions should be with Elected Officials.

 

I hope that MissJenn is aware of that.

Some folks can't just leave well enough alone. They feel the need to just keep rubbing salt in the wound although they may never have found any of the caches involved in the conversation. From their profile page

 

"Occupation - Avoiding pompous asses, full time employment...trust me". I'll just bet that is difficult if you have any mirrors in your home.

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I wonder if lostguy works for Richard H. Jorgensen, the Superintendent of the Park.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Negotiations with Government Employees (Civil Servants) is fruitless. They do not respond to common sense arguments or logic. Civil Servants ONLY respond to political pressure. Discussions should be with Elected Officials.

 

I hope that MissJenn is aware of that.

Some folks can't just leave well enough alone. They feel the need to just keep rubbing salt in the wound although they may never have found any of the caches involved in the conversation. From their profile page

 

"Occupation - Avoiding pompous asses, full time employment...trust me". I'll just bet that is difficult if you have any mirrors in your home.

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Negotiations with Government Employees (Civil Servants) is fruitless. They do not respond to common sense arguments or logic. Civil Servants ONLY respond to political pressure. Discussions should be with Elected Officials.

 

 

 

:huh: Hey...not all Government Employees (civil servants) are bad. There's a whole big bunch of us in the San Diego geocaching community...all logic minded, easy to get along with, fun, fruitful, smart, trustworthy, caring, optimistic, good looking..oops..am I getting carried away ;)

Edited by jahoadi and john
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Negotiations with Government Employees (Civil Servants) is fruitless. They do not respond to common sense arguments or logic. Civil Servants ONLY respond to political pressure. Discussions should be with Elected Officials.
:huh: Hey...not all Government Employees (civil servants) are bad. There's a whole big bunch of us in the San Diego geocaching community...all logic minded, easy to get along with, fun, fruitful, smart, trustworthy, caring, optimistic, good looking..oops..am I getting carried away ;)

You forgot "Brave, Clean and Reverent..." :huh:

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Negotiations with Government Employees (Civil Servants) is fruitless. They do not respond to common sense arguments or logic. Civil Servants ONLY respond to political pressure. Discussions should be with Elected Officials.
;) Hey...not all Government Employees (civil servants) are bad. There's a whole big bunch of us in the San Diego geocaching community...all logic minded, easy to get along with, fun, fruitful, smart, trustworthy, caring, optimistic, good looking..oops..am I getting carried away :D

You forgot "Brave, Clean and Reverent..." :D

 

 

:lol: I was trying to be modest. OBTW..we lost our 1st ammo can to "NOTARANGER" today. Bummer..I liked that canyon.

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I find RK comments to be helpful in the discussion of the park, all of TC's are just snide and condescending and do not add anything.

Sorry Hottie, I have the same perception about your snide/condescending comments. Well, maybe not all of your comments, but certainly the majority. Tact and humility tend to win people over; give it a try.
I feel the same way. He'd be wise to pick up a copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People and read it because he rubs a lot of people the wrong way in the forums. Right or wrong if you have an abrasive delivery nobody is going to listen to you.

 

The ignore button works quite well, I used it a long time ago

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I find RK comments to be helpful in the discussion of the park, all of TC's are just snide and condescending and do not add anything.

Sorry Hottie, I have the same perception about your snide/condescending comments. Well, maybe not all of your comments, but certainly the majority. Tact and humility tend to win people over; give it a try.
I feel the same way. He'd be wise to pick up a copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People and read it because he rubs a lot of people the wrong way in the forums. Right or wrong if you have an abrasive delivery nobody is going to listen to you.

 

The ignore button works quite well, I used it a long time ago

 

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