Placing a New Cache, Question for Reviewers

[+dhbaird]

Hello,

 

A couple of cache friends and myself would like to place a cache in a location that each of visit 2-3 times a year at different times. The location is on the island of St. Martin and each of us vacation 2 times a year or more. The cache will be monitored by a local resident at whose restaurant the cache will be located. We had a couple of questions before we place the cache.

 

1: Due to a lot of muggle activity and high theft rates in the area where anything that is not actually bolted down or locked behind steel shutters disappears, can we locate the cache actually inside the restaurant so that it is only accessible when the restaurant is open?

 

2: Will it be acceptible that we as the cache placers are only on site 2-3 times each year to change the log and collect the disposible camera and post the photos? The restuarant owner is a good friend and very reliable (ex-US Marine). We've been talking with him for 2+ years about doing this and he asks each trip if we had gotten approved.

 

I leave for the island in less than a week so I wanted some answers before I placed the cache.

[+Too Tall John]

Not a reviewer, but:

1: Due to a lot of muggle activity and high theft rates in the area where anything that is not actually bolted down or locked behind steel shutters disappears, can we locate the cache actually inside the restaurant so that it is only accessible when the restaurant is open?

According to the guidelines:

If the finder is required to go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial.

I'd read that as no.

2: Will it be acceptible that we as the cache placers are only on site 2-3 times each year to change the log and collect the disposible camera and post the photos? The restuarant owner is a good friend and very reliable (ex-US Marine). We've been talking with him for 2+ years about doing this and he asks each trip if we had gotten approved.

Once again, from the guidelines:

It may be difficult to fulfill your maintenance obligations if you place a cache while traveling on vacation or otherwise outside of your normal caching area. These caches may not be published unless you are able to demonstrate an acceptable maintenance plan.

I'd read that as a maybe.

 

The people you need to check with is the local reviewer, who is probably erik88l-r.

Edited December 20, 2007 by Too Tall John

[+wesleykey]

I'd say no. Check with the reviewer. It may be OK if it's outside an accessible at all times.

[+dhbaird]

Not a reviewer, but:

1: Due to a lot of muggle activity and high theft rates in the area where anything that is not actually bolted down or locked behind steel shutters disappears, can we locate the cache actually inside the restaurant so that it is only accessible when the restaurant is open?

According to the guidelines:

If the finder is required to go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial.

I'd read that as no.

2: Will it be acceptible that we as the cache placers are only on site 2-3 times each year to change the log and collect the disposible camera and post the photos? The restuarant owner is a good friend and very reliable (ex-US Marine). We've been talking with him for 2+ years about doing this and he asks each trip if we had gotten approved.

Once again, from the guidelines:

It may be difficult to fulfill your maintenance obligations if you place a cache while traveling on vacation or otherwise outside of your normal caching area. These caches may not be published unless you are able to demonstrate an acceptable maintenance plan.

I'd read that as a maybe.

 

The people you need to check with is the local reviewer, who is probably erik88l-r.

 

No one would be required to purchase anything, it is just that after dark the cache would be behind a sliding steel shutter to keep it from taking legs and walking. Another cache disappeared on the island since I was there in July and it had in it one of my TB's so I know that not having the cache under the eye of some one is hazardous to that particular location.

 

What exactly is an acceptible maint. plan? I visit that place a minimum of 2 times a year. Peconic Bay Sailors does the same. With daily supervision of the cache right by the bar of a busy beach bar and under the watchful eye of two people on site every day, is that a good enough maint. plan?

[+mtn-man]

You should not place a cache. The guidelines say:

As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time – normally a few weeks – in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive or transfer the listing.

[+StarBrand]

I'm not a reviewer but....

 

As has been stated - the maintainence issue is probably covered and not a huge pproblem as long as you can list all of those responsible for the cache and can assure the reviewer that it will be maintained timely.

 

However...

 

Placing it inside the business is a no-no. There has got to be some place to hide it safely and securely in the nearby area outside.

[+dhbaird]

I'm not a reviewer but....

 

As has been stated - the maintainence issue is probably covered and not a huge pproblem as long as you can list all of those responsible for the cache and can assure the reviewer that it will be maintained timely.

 

However...

 

Placing it inside the business is a no-no. There has got to be some place to hide it safely and securely in the nearby area outside.

 

An extensive search around the beach bar was conducted by Peconic Bay Sailors a short while ago and in consultation with the local residents there was no place outside the environs of the beach bar was deemed secure enough that it would not disappear. Given the experience of Sunset Cache recently stolen by muggles (also on the the island) and comparing it to the Kissing Cache which is located within a resorts grounds and less than 6 feet from the bar tender I thought that the location we had selected fit the guidelines as well as the Kissing Cache did. The only difference is that at the site I propose when the bar closes the cache would be now inaccessible until the next morning when they raise the steel shutter on the deck and bar area.

[+Quiggle]

If the cache is inside a business, then no, it shouldn't be listed without prior approval from Groundspeak.

 

If the cache is pretty much guaranteed to disappear, maybe the area doesn't really need a cache.

[+9Key]

 

If the cache is pretty much guaranteed to disappear, maybe the area doesn't really need a cache.

Bingo!

[+wimseyguy]

You should not place a cache. The guidelines say:

As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time – normally a few weeks – in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive or transfer the listing.

You should listen to him. He's been a reviewer for a very long time.

If the cache is inside a business, then no, it shouldn't be listed without prior approval from Groundspeak.

 

If the cache is pretty much guaranteed to disappear, maybe the area doesn't really need a cache.

She's a reviewer too.

 

Enjoy your vacation, save your cache hiding for closer to home.

[start sappy background music] Back in the old days of geocaching the guidelines may have been a bit looser about vacation caches. Sometimes they were allowed to help jump start activity in an area. Those days are gone. We have lots of caches to find now. And if there aren't any where you are traveling to, find another GPS related game to play there instead of hiding a vacation cache. [/music]

[+Peconic Bay Sailors]

David,

You might want to explain that Andy will also be available to maintain & keep an eye on the cache...

When I last spoke to him, he said he would...

There are some outside places to put the cache...

When we looked, our cache container was just too large...

(we were trying to place a 50 cal. ammo box!, and did not have a decon box sized contaner with us)

BTW... THIS PLACE NEEDS A CACHE!!!

It is on a beach that is commonly called "the Caribbean Riveria"...

and will get many International visitors...

St. Martin/Sint. Maarten needs more goeocahes... It has a few as of now...

BTW we just lost the one at the Cliffhanger, due to construction and change of ownership... BIG disapointment!

But it was also archived in a timely fashion...

and was always maintained by visitors and the locals that agreed to take care of it...

Just look at the logs for the KISSING CACHE...

173 logs so far and going stong... and well maintaied!

The cache "watchers" i.e. people who own the resort have been very supportive...

anything placed at David's chosen location will get similar visits and attention...

 

David does have permission and a willing maintainer for this cache...

(and the owner(s) of the property, Andy & Cheryl, are from NJ, and understand geocaching, and supports the sport,

and he & his wife are there every day 5AM-approx 4-5PM everyday, except Mondays)!!!

 

This is not a commercial cache!!! Just a popular place that a lot of geocachers, that I know, go to...

 

We will also always check, and help maintain this cache when we are there...

 

This is the only way the Island of St. Martin/ Sint. Maarten will become a Geocaching destination...

And I feel that is what is important here...

The maint issues are really resolved...

David, myself & my wife, and others have made sure of all of that...

 

This cache really needs to be there!

Edited December 20, 2007 by Peconic Bay Sailors

[Keystone]

After reading all this, I think the owner group could make a very good case for an acceptable maintenance plan. They'd have to convince Erik88l-r, however, not me.

 

As for the commercialism issue, however, NO reviewer would have the discretion to publish a cache inside a commercial bar or restaurant. We have clear instructions to forward all such submissions to Groundspeak. Only Groundspeak can decide whether to allow a commercial cache. If the cache is inside a business, then it is presumed to be commercial, regardless of intent. So, that is a non-starter. To get started, write to Groundspeak at the appeals@geocaching.com e-mail address. Do this *before* submitting the cache. Again, the reviewer is powerless to grant an exception, or even to suggest ways in which to modify the cache to make it acceptable.

[+Ambrosia]

In light of that, I would suggest that the cache owners have their friend who works near the cache area create his own geocaching account. That way they can present him as their local maintainer. Put the geocaching name of the local maintainer in the description, saying that he'll help take care of the cache in between the owner's 4 visits a year. Write a reviewer note explaining everything clearly for the reviewer (maybe even with a link to this thread!).

 

If you have special circumstances, please describe your maintenance plan on your cache page. For example, if you have made arrangements with a local geocacher to watch over your distant cache for you, that geocacher’s name should be mentioned on your cache page.

 

Make sure that the local maintainer is with you when you place the cache, so that he knows where it is to take care of it. Does he have a GPS? If he does, you can also discuss very close by alternative cache spots to move the cache to if the first spot becomes a problem. He could email you the new coords. Leave an extra cache container with him and some extra cache logs.

 

Hopefully this will help get your cache published, and help it to have a long life. I think that the biggest worry is that no matter how good the intentions are, if you own a cache that far away in a hard to maintain spot, statistically it's not going to do well. It's best to hide them as close to your home area as possible, no matter how tempting it may be to place them elsewhere!

[+Peconic Bay Sailors]

Statistically... St. Martin/Sint. Maarten has been a very good place for these types of caches...

Just look at the caches that are there now...

The Kissing Cache is a perfect example and has been there for a few years...

No Problems to date... 173 visitors to date... and the "Maint" people love meeting Geocachers...

(and it is also NOT a commercial cache, as most do not seem to actually purchase anything at that spot)...

Enjoyed by visitors from all over the world...

This is a destination for Geocachers worldwide...But not a Geocaching area of the locals...

(Most locals are not able to afford a GPS)...

and I think it should be supported by Groundspeak...

There is no doubt that David, Myself & others have done the legwork and have have covered the Maint. issues...

 

Thanks Keystone for your support...

Edited December 21, 2007 by Peconic Bay Sailors

[Motorcycle_Mama]

You've twice stated that "this is not a commercial cache". However, if it is inside the business, it IS a commercial cache no matter what (unless Groundspeak issues an variance/approval). If you place it outside, and it is available without interacting with the business in any way, then it wouldn't be a commercial cache.

Edited December 21, 2007 by Motorcycle_Mama

[+Peconic Bay Sailors]

You've twice stated that "this is not a commercial cache". However, if it is inside the business, it IS a commercial cache no matter what. If you place it outside, and it is available without interacting with the business in any way, then it wouldn't be a commercial cache.

 

And I have already stated that there are "outside" places for a good cache to be placed...

(our 50 Cal. ammo box was just too big to be placed there, but a Decon Box, or other container of that size would work fine)...

I am not advocating it be placed "inside"...

 

Really.... everybody here is trying to make this really good cache site into something it is NOT...

settle down and appreciate it for what it could be...

a TRUELY INTERNATIONAL cache site... to be enjoyed by cachers from all over the world...

at this spot I have met...

Belgians, French, Dutch, Germans, Italians, South Africans, Australians, Japaneese, Chineese, Vietnameese... etc... etc... etc...

The list goes on and on...

Edited December 21, 2007 by Peconic Bay Sailors

[+dhbaird]

You've twice stated that "this is not a commercial cache". However, if it is inside the business, it IS a commercial cache no matter what. If you place it outside, and it is available without interacting with the business in any way, then it wouldn't be a commercial cache.

 

And I have already stated that there are "outside" places for a good cache to be placed...

(our 50 Cal. ammo box was just too big to be placed there, but a Decon Box, or other container of that size would work fine)...

I am not advocating it be placed "inside"...

 

As I will be there in less than 7 days, I will re-explore the immediate surroundings with the folks at the bar and try to locate a protected place close enough that they can still keep an eye on it yet not have it too visible. I will also leave them extra containers and logs as suggested. I just did not want to see TB's and other stuff disappear from the Geocache community like the one I left at Sunset Cache this July when an obvious solution to me was to place it just inside the bar itself so it could be protected from muggles.

 

Will that kind of solution require pre-approval from the Geocache appeals folk or do we just submit the regular form?

[+Peconic Bay Sailors]

David...

I have some ideas...

I'll PM you on TTOL...

Edited December 21, 2007 by Peconic Bay Sailors

[+elmuyloco5]

I have to say that I really see a double standard when it comes to what is and what is not considered "commercial". I've seen lots of caches that are inside buildings, and sure maybe some were around prior to rule....I mean "guideline" changes. But, just a few weeks ago there were several threads about everyone excited that the NPS was opening their doors to geocachers. You have to pay to get in any national park, so how is this different? Don't get me wrong, I think that caches in NPS sites are great, just don't see how they fit in and not others, especially ones that don't cost you to visit. The same thing goes for state parks that require entry or any other place that has an entry fee (there are lots out there....and recent one too). Seems a bit unfair.

 

I don't know what this place is like that the OP is talking about, but I don't see how it would be any different than any other cache in a building that has been listed. They aren't requiring you to purchase something, or pushing their wares, just securing the box. I know my opinion won't change Groundspeaks', but since this is a forum, I'm just putting it out there. And to the OP: good luck with your cache. I hope you can find a way to make it work.

[+Ambrosia]

You've twice stated that "this is not a commercial cache". However, if it is inside the business, it IS a commercial cache no matter what. If you place it outside, and it is available without interacting with the business in any way, then it wouldn't be a commercial cache.

 

And I have already stated that there are "outside" places for a good cache to be placed...

(our 50 Cal. ammo box was just too big to be placed there, but a Decon Box, or other container of that size would work fine)...

I am not advocating it be placed "inside"...

 

As I will be there in less than 7 days, I will re-explore the immediate surroundings with the folks at the bar and try to locate a protected place close enough that they can still keep an eye on it yet not have it too visible. I will also leave them extra containers and logs as suggested. I just did not want to see TB's and other stuff disappear from the Geocache community like the one I left at Sunset Cache this July when an obvious solution to me was to place it just inside the bar itself so it could be protected from muggles.

 

Will that kind of solution require pre-approval from the Geocache appeals folk or do we just submit the regular form?

The listing guidelines about commercial caches say:

 

Some exceptions can be made. In these situations, permission can be given by Groundspeak. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first. If you do not have advance permission, your reviewer will refer you to Groundspeak.