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Military Swag & Church Swag


steve638
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I saw a while a back a pretty heated thread on just church swag. I recently created a cache before reading that thread and it's content were all military and church related, a lapel pin (US Flag), lapel pin(yellow ribbon), US ARMY bumper sticker, Coin SSG type, dog tags with American Flag they have religious quotes on them (I did try to find a set without religious quotes but there aren't any at MCS), some military personal may know what I'm talking about. A bible study notebook small in nature(Thank Chaplin Charlie), a Big Red One Patch, some old sew on rank. Standard notebook and pencil. My cache is still under review, I won't change the contents though because this is my cache not yours.

 

I do serve in the military and I do go to church. If you think I'm going to put a gray piece of paper with nothing on it in a geocache as not to offend anyone, think again. There is no recruiting information and no go to church or go to hell items.

 

Here's my take if you don't like the swag, just log it and don't take anything or just leave your non offensive overly exciting gray piece of paper with nothing on it.

 

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."

- General George Patton Jr

 

This comment is for you military recruiters using geocaching to meet your monthly quota. BAD BAD BAD IDEA! Plus you probably won't meet your quota that way, but hey that's on you not me, your yearly review will reflect your previous actions.

 

And for strictly religious caches:

You'll spread religion by your example and giving of yourself, not beating people over the head with your religious rhetoric - that assault.

The United States of America was founded by Christian People last time I checked, one nation under god ?

I guess that's debatable these days ?

 

Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.

George Washington

 

If we desire to avoid insult, we must be able to repel it; if we desire to secure peace, one of the most powerful instruments of our rising prosperity, it must be known, that we are at all times ready for War.

George Washington

 

May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.

- General George Patton Jr

 

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.

He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

- Attributed to General George Patton Jr

 

This is for you military recruiters with a sense of humor:

Youtube-Military recruiting van

 

Just thought I would exercise my freedom of speech. I know I offended some of you but hey I don't care.

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It's about the cache, not what's in the cache. Why can't it be that easy. If you don't like the cache or what started off in the cache then don't log it as a find and just walk away. I'm sure there's alot of people out there that don't have anything better to do with there time so they come here to complain. Lifes to short and sometimes you find that out the hard way. En joy the moment! :D

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Was there a point? and it's "too much" not "to much"; which isn't an expression of an opinion by me, but a note about grammar.

 

If you don't care whether you're pointlessly offensive, then perhaps you should refrain from posting in the forums. Just an idea.

 

The point is you should be able to put what ever you want in a cache within the geocaching guidelines without people pointlessly attacking each other over what goes into a cache.

 

See Church Swag

 

:D:D

 

Well I wouldn't have normally posted this but I just started my Christmas Leave and can't be out caching 24/7 as I'd like to. So I figured I'd come here and stir the pot.

Edited by steve638
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Ah, so this is actually a church swag thread.

 

Thanks for the clarification -- I was a bit confused about the idea that there might actually be a controversy about military swag or military-themed caches. I should hope not, since I have one ("232"), and it was approved by my reviewer with no problems.

 

Do you mean to link military and church swag, or to imply that a rejection of one automatically means a rejection of the other?

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Ah, so this is actually a church swag thread.

 

Thanks for the clarification -- I was a bit confused about the idea that there might actually be a controversy about military swag or military-themed caches. I should hope not, since I have one ("232"), and it was approved by my reviewer with no problems.

 

Do you mean to link military and church swag, or to imply that a rejection of one automatically means a rejection of the other?

 

Well the majority of the items are military related. Although the dog tags have a religious verse on them and a American Flag so that one could go either way.

 

But the idea is people being offended by religious, military or any other possibly offensive theme, determined by the cacher.

 

I had a person tell me off because I was wearing a Pro Army T Shirt and Baseball cap walking downtown with friends, it didn't catch me off guard because we were warned at work about anti war activist being around. It's happened more then once though. When I used to do a lot of funeral details a battle buddy of mine was insulted for being in uniform by a specific religious group. Ironic since I go to church.

 

So just like religious items are people bothered by military themed items ?

 

After reading previous threads, would a violation of terms be having a virtual cache that's ends in a recruiters office with the answer being what's the recruiters name and rank ? :D:D How about a multi cache that goes through each branch of service recruitment office and ends at the MEPS station ? :D

 

Most people I believe are reasonable and aren't offended by some military, religious and other group specific stuff. Although I'm looking for to the day I find a cache with a box of Thin Mint Girl Scout Cookies!

 

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda

 

So while I have a bunch of military items I'm not a recruiter nor is my intent for you to join the military as a result of finding my cache. Just stirring the pot and curious what other stuff people have to say. :D

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You know, I get sick of all the threads about this or that is not appropriate in caches!

 

Why don't we just clean out every cache we visit and put in whatever small junk we find on the ground near the cache site?

 

You can't please everybody anybody in this game. Why waste your time trying?

 

IMO the whole trading aspect of caching as practiced today has become excruciatingly LAME because of all the crackpot notions about what is appropriate and what is not.

 

Because so many people want to enforce their politically correctness on the rest of the world, the whole world is getting so flipping bland it makes me sick.

 

IMO if we want to improve trading in caches we need the busy bodies of the caching community to shut their traps and let people trade what they want.

 

Otherwise we are doomed to log only micros and it doesn't seem like anybody likes them any better.

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After reading previous threads, would a violation of terms be having a virtual cache that's ends in a recruiters office with the answer being what's the recruiters name and rank ?

 

Better yet, to log the cache you have to upload a picture of your signed enlistment papers.

 

Now there's a virtual cache that will truly better the community. Worth FAR more than a CITO. :D

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After reading previous threads, would a violation of terms be having a virtual cache that's ends in a recruiters office with the answer being what's the recruiters name and rank ?

 

Better yet, to log the cache you have to upload a picture of your signed enlistment papers.

 

Now there's a virtual cache that will truly better the community. Worth FAR more than a CITO. :D

 

That is so funny, signed enlistment papers that's awesome. What other ridiculous caches could we create ?

 

How about a cache leading to picture of yourself at a voting booth casting your ballet on election day ? :D:D

 

So not to offended others I will leave a plain gray piece of paper with nothing on it and take something out.

 

How about other non offensive items to leave in caches ?

:D

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I do serve in the military and I do go to church. If you think I'm going to put a gray piece of paper with nothing on it in a geocache as not to offend anyone, think again. There is no recruiting information and no go to church or go to hell items.

 

Here's my take if you don't like the swag, just log it and don't take anything or just leave your non offensive overly exciting gray piece of paper with nothing on it.

 

And for strictly religious caches:

You'll spread religion by your example and giving of yourself, not beating people over the head with your religious rhetoric - that assault.

The United States of America was founded by Christian People last time I checked, one nation under god ?

I guess that's debatable these days ?

 

 

I think that a few people misunderstood what I was saying in the church swag discussion. I'd like to say that if my posts were among those that left you with the impression that I was offended by religious swag, I am sorry that my posts gave you the wrong impression. I had thought that all religious, commercial, political and 'agenda' items were prohibited. I now understand that they aren't prohibited from being left in a cache, but a cache cannot be set out with those agendas as the theme. I don't think this rule is to say that any of these themes or agendas are bad, but that if some are allowed, then they all should be allowed...and that is usually where things snowball downhill (not just in the geocaching world, but everywhere).

 

ALso misunderstood was my feelings on 'religious swag". to me, swag and propaganda are totally different. Military or religious items do not "offend" me. My husband is a veteran and I understand how meaningful military symbols and/or items can be. Its the paper advertisements/propaganda/tracts (or in your words, the "recruiting and go to church or go to hell" items that make no sense in a cache. Your military dog tags, and other items sound like great swag and I"m sure some will be happy to have them. My point was that a cache should not be stuffed with pro-abortion/ pro-life/ pro-*insert ANY religion here*/ pro-*insert political party* literature, tracts, etc. Because it's really not an appropraite soapbox from which to make a point. Thus, why i agree with your statement "You'll spread religion by your example and giving of yourself, not beating people over the head with your religious rhetoric - that assault.". I agree with that 100%...and that's what I was referring to when i said that I would find it inappropriate to find a cache stuffed with bible-tracts....just as I would find it inappropriate to be stuffed with pro-life/ pro-choice/ pro-democrat/ pro-republican or pro-*insert any agenda here* tracts. It just doesn't get people to understand the material presented but instead serves to anger or annoy, not to mention make a mess of wet soggy mush in the cache box.

 

I do still feel that agenda caches aren't really a good idea. Primarily because it often happens that the agenda of the majority overrides the rest and then an unfair double-standard starts being applied. I guess if the agenda is specifically stated on the cache page, and opposing agendas aren't sensored, then each person could decide for themselves whether to seek out that cache. The problems I see are that sometimes the page does NOT indicate this and thus people aren't give the choice. I also see the double standard happening. I haven't been around geocaching long, but I have searched by keyword. There are many caches that seem to 'hover' on the line of being Christian themed, but there are only two in the U.S. with a Pagan/Wiccan theme (and even then they're subtle). I had wanted to place a Wiccan themed cache but decided against it when i read the cache placement rules. I see so many approved though with seemingly Christian themes, that i might go ahead and try the Wiccan theme. Oddly enough, I see many Wiccan/ Pagan themed caches in the UK. Seems like I must live in the wrong country...lol.

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I know I offended some of you but hey I don't care.

 

I was with you all the way, until that last sentence. :D Although I find the military items with religious inscription a little troubling. Who would Jesus frag? I don't suppose you have any grenades with "Thou Shall Not Kill" on them, do you? :D :D

Edited by geowizerd
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So just like religious items are people bothered by military themed items ?

 

So far, I haven't seen any threads here stating that people have found military stuff to be bothersome, offensive, or inappropriate. Mind you, I'm pretty new to geocaching, so I don't have a goes-years-back knowledge of what's happened on the forum. I do recall a couple of threads complaning that people have left ammunition in caches, or have marked up a not-obviously-inert round of ammunition as a travel bug, but that's not a specifically military issue.

 

As for the churchly stuff, as I stated in the other thread, I don't have a problem with it as long as it is agenda-free. That is, if someone puts something in a cache that speaks of their identity as a religious person, I am fine with that. What I am not fine with is someone, say, removing religious items from caches because they find them inappropriate, especially if they are the same time touting their own religion: if you have read the other thread, you'll find my link to a thread in which someone removed Wiccan items from a keychain type travel bug because he/she found them "inappropriate", while his/her own profile page has a big ol' Bible quote on it. That is not cool.

 

As for the "believe in MY God MY way or go to Hell!" type swag, well, I'll take that out of my own caches. If it's in someone else's, I'll let them know about it so that they can make their own decision.

 

That being said, I don't think that the argument "either all swag is appropriate or it is all inappropriate" is a good one. That is what I think you're implying by stating that if military or church swag is offensive, then we should all start leaving gray pieces of paper for each other. This is a false dichotomy. There are items that are inappropriate given the family-friendly nature of the sport: porn, for example. I also would imagine that brochures, say, advocating hate groups would be a bad thing to put in a cache (and I would trash them out wherever I found them).

 

But I think it would be fruitless to come up with a list of stuff that's patently wrong (although it might be a fun exercise in creativity). Just cache the way you want others to cache. And hope that people notice and start following your example.

Edited by Jackalgirl
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I donno, if I found army recruiting propaganda/tracts I'd probably treat them the same as I would religious tracts.

 

I would too. But as the original poster said, he did NOT put those items in there. He didn't stick recruitment propaganda/ tracts in there. He put items people may want to trade (lapel pins, a bumpersticker, coin, dog tags, notebook, and patch) He specifically stated "There is no recruiting information and no go to church or go to hell items." So his military items would be the same as someone putting a cross necklace, a mug with religious phrases, or a Star of David lapel pin. Those to me are much different than propaganda and tracts which are usually paper pamphlets meant to convince (or in religious tracts, threaten) someone into joining a specific belief.

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I donno, if I found army recruiting propaganda/tracts I'd probably treat them the same as I would religious tracts.

 

I would too. But as the original poster said, he did NOT put those items in there. He didn't stick recruitment propaganda/ tracts in there. He put items people may want to trade (lapel pins, a bumpersticker, coin, dog tags, notebook, and patch) He specifically stated "There is no recruiting information and no go to church or go to hell items." So his military items would be the same as someone putting a cross necklace, a mug with religious phrases, or a Star of David lapel pin. Those to me are much different than propaganda and tracts which are usually paper pamphlets meant to convince (or in religious tracts, threaten) someone into joining a specific belief.

 

That's cool. Please understand that I don't a problem with any of that stuff. As I said I would treat army tracts like religious ones. Make it interesting, the more bizarre the better, and I would definitely pick it up and pass it along.

 

I was raised Unitarian and later became a Catholic. That means I support tolerance and love a good joke. :D

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That's cool. Please understand that I don't a problem with any of that stuff. As I said I would treat army tracts like religious ones. Make it interesting, the more bizarre the better, and I would definitely pick it up and pass it along.

 

I was raised Unitarian and later became a Catholic. That means I support tolerance and love a good joke. :D

 

ah..ok. I misunderstood and thought you were under the impression that he did put those in. :-)

 

I LOVE that last line! That is great. :-)

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So of my favorite lines from this thread are:

 

IMO if we want to improve trading in caches we need the busy bodies of the caching community to shut their traps and let people trade what they want.

Otherwise we are doomed to log only micros and it doesn't seem like anybody likes them any better.

After reading previous threads, would a violation of terms be having a virtual cache that's ends in a recruiters office with the answer being what's the recruiters name and rank ?

Better yet, to log the cache you have to upload a picture of your signed enlistment papers.

Now there's a virtual cache that will truly better the community. Worth FAR more than a CITO. biggrin.gif

Although I find the military items with religious inscription a little troubling. Who would Jesus frag? I don't suppose you have any grenades with "Thou Shall Not Kill" on them, do you?

 

Everyone has had great replies keep them coming. Everyone has a valid point!

 

Maybe we can all agree to dis agree so at least we have agreed upon something ? :rolleyes::D

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...The point is you should be able to put what ever you want in a cache within the geocaching guidelines without people pointlessly attacking each other over what goes into a cache....

 

Thanks for the clarification. I sort of thought that maybe you were kinda saying that in a round about backwards long winded way...

 

Military Swag, Church Swag, PETA Swag. It takes all kinds to make up the world. You don't have to like the philosophy or message to show a little respect for the simple fact that others have different ideas and beliefs.

 

The world could use a little more of that.

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...The point is you should be able to put what ever you want in a cache within the geocaching guidelines without people pointlessly attacking each other over what goes into a cache....

 

Thanks for the clarification. I sort of thought that maybe you were kinda saying that in a round about backwards long winded way...

 

Military Swag, Church Swag, PETA Swag. It takes all kinds to make up the world. You don't have to like the philosophy or message to show a little respect for the simple fact that others have different ideas and beliefs.

 

The world could use a little more of that.

 

:rolleyes: is that PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals swag or People for The Ethical Treatment of Animals swag, just so no one is unsure :D

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Christian swag is completely different from "believe in what i do or you're going to hell" pamphlets. just like military swag is different from recruitment papers. The latter in both cases is junk that shouldn't be placed in a cache. The paper is just going to get soggy and wet and take up space, make the cache smell bad etc.

 

Not to mention, telling me I'm going to hell for having different beliefs than you IS offensive, so, uh, sorry for taking offense...

 

I don't care if you leave a rosary or something like that in a cache b/c somebody actually might want to trade for that. Not me, but I don't want to trade for the kids toy either.

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Christian swag is completely different from "believe in what i do or you're going to hell" pamphlets.

 

Some christian swag is no different from the "believe in what i do or you're going to hell" pamphlets.

 

That's not what I meant; I meant if somebody wanted to put quality christian swag it'd be different than those pamphlets. I don't think they really count as swag. goes back to a different arguement in 10,000 different threads about quality trade items...

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Trade even, trade up, or don't trade at all. :anibad::huh::lol:

 

When you get down it, that's all you can do. You can sweat, threat and fret all you want. You can't stop it so what's the best thing to do? Trade even, trade up, or don't trade at all.

 

edit: 's

 

I rarely do trade for cache swag as I rarely see anything in a cache I care to possess. But on occasion I have been possessed to swap one of my tasty sweet potato tracts for a religious tract. Now I'll have to be on the lookout for a military tract too. :anibad:

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I don't see any issue with church, military, or whatever kind of swag (within the rules and common decency) so long as the cache isn't being used to fulfill some sort of personal agenda. The fun is in the hunt, not so much finding neat things to trade. Now if someone was filling my caches with some sort of themed propaganda, I'd probably remove some, but otherwise who cares? :lol:

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...Offense in is the eye of the beholder....

 

That's very true. Some people think that because they have taken offence that clearly the offending party is wrong. Yet they fail to notice that by having chosen to be offended where no offence was intented they are in fact wrong.

 

It's one thing to work to offend someone. Another to be minding your own busines only to be slapped upside the head by an outraged offended party expecting an apology for a nothing.

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Trade even, trade up, or don't trade at all. :anibad::huh::lol:

 

When you get down it, that's all you can do. You can sweat, threat and fret all you want. You can't stop it so what's the best thing to do? Trade even, trade up, or don't trade at all.

 

edit: 's

 

I rarely do trade for cache swag as I rarely see anything in a cache I care to possess. But on occasion I have been possessed to swap one of my tasty sweet potato tracts for a religious tract. Now I'll have to be on the lookout for a military tract too. :anibad:

 

There's one in Illinois http://www.outfitters.com/illinois/history...y/miltract.html

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I know I offended some of you but hey I don't care.

 

I was with you all the way, until that last sentence. :lol: Although I find the military items with religious inscription a little troubling. Who would Jesus frag? I don't suppose you have any grenades with "Thou Shall Not Kill" on them, do you? :anibad::huh:

 

Jessus destroyed entire cities, but that's neither here nor there. If I, as a christian, am forced to deal with swag that I find offensive, then why shouldn't "you" (not anyone specific), have to deal with things that you find offensive?

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you'll find my link to a thread in which someone removed Wiccan items from a keychain type travel bug because he/she found them "inappropriate", while his/her own profile page has a big ol' Bible quote on it. That is not cool.

 

That was "I" who took the wiccan item off the keychain. I would ask everyone to PLEASE read the thread. You'll notice that I apologized and admitted that doing that was inappropriate and that notifying the cache owner would have been the correct course of action.

 

If everyone could learn to admit when they were wrong, these forums would be a lot better. But you can choose to try to drag me through the mud instead. Whatever works for you.

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May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.

- General George Patton Jr

 

Here's another quote for you, from Teddy Roosevelt:

"Speak softly and stir the pot with a big stick."

 

If somebody got offended by your post, well, hallelujah for that.

 

That means they are free, living in a place where communications are not censored, and they have the freedom to express themselves openly without fear of retribution.

 

That's a good thing.

 

My new favorite quote:

 

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." - - Ronald Reagan"

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May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.

- General George Patton Jr

 

Here's another quote for you, from Teddy Roosevelt:

"Speak softly and stir the pot with a big stick."

 

If somebody got offended by your post, well, hallelujah for that.

 

That means they are free, living in a place where communications are not censored, and they have the freedom to express themselves openly without fear of retribution.

 

That's a good thing.

 

My new favorite quote:

 

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." - - Ronald Reagan"

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I know I offended some of you but hey I don't care.

 

I was with you all the way, until that last sentence. :lol: Although I find the military items with religious inscription a little troubling. Who would Jesus frag? I don't suppose you have any grenades with "Thou Shall Not Kill" on them, do you? :anibad: :anibad:

 

Jessus destroyed entire cities,

 

:lol: You care to quote where it says that in the bible??? :huh:

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Jessus destroyed entire cities, but that's neither here nor there. If I, as a christian, am forced to deal with swag that I find offensive, then why shouldn't "you" (not anyone specific), have to deal with things that you find offensive?

You AREN'T forced to deal with it. If you don't like it, ignore it. There is no rule that says you MUST take something.

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I know I offended some of you but hey I don't care.

 

I was with you all the way, until that last sentence. B) Although I find the military items with religious inscription a little troubling. Who would Jesus frag? I don't suppose you have any grenades with "Thou Shall Not Kill" on them, do you? :) :)

 

Jessus destroyed entire cities,

 

B) You care to quote where it says that in the bible??? :)

 

There are many.. Jude 1:7 comes to mind... If you want to have a theological debate, then I would be more than happy to start a topic in off-topic.

Edited by ReadyOrNot
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Jessus destroyed entire cities, but that's neither here nor there. If I, as a christian, am forced to deal with swag that I find offensive, then why shouldn't "you" (not anyone specific), have to deal with things that you find offensive?

You AREN'T forced to deal with it. If you don't like it, ignore it. There is no rule that says you MUST take something.

 

Most of the time I do ignore it.. There are times when the material is so offensive, that (in my opinion) it needs to be traded out for something else... This topic is about whether or not religious material should even be allowed to be in caches. If McToys are offensive to you, trade them out for something that isn't. If a Wiccan item is offensive to me, I'll trade it out for something else. No harm, no foul.. It's my decision to make, not yours.

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