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Church Swag


mrbeachroach
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I'll leave christian items in a cache because I know that christians geocache. It's usually something like an angel pin or a mug. I might even leave a tract if it had an inspiring or uplifting thought printed on it. If someone found them and threw them out because they thought they were trash, well there isn't much I can do about that. That's the way the game goes.

 

Then you for one certainly could not complain if someone left jewish, atheist, muslim, wiccan, satanic, or morman items in caches just to name a very few. Of course, some of the above would be traded for quite quickly, you get the drift.

 

Are you making the assumption that these items aren't being left. Don't know if that's true.

I found something in one of my caches that I couldn't figure out what it was used for. (I had to replace it with something smaller so I could fit a TB in the cache) It was a metal skull and cross bones pendant on a long black ribbon. I was thinking it might be something wiccan or motorcycle related. I was planning on removing the ribbon and using the pendant to trade in a pirate themed cache.

Finding things from other religions probably wouldn't phase me. As it is I've had muslims living next door, the jewish temple is around the corner, the head of the morman church is five houses down the block and there used to be buddists in the house across from him. Whether I complain about a religious item would depend on what the item was. I'd probably be more upset if it were mean spirited or not family friendly.

I do occassionally leave religious items, but not very often. It limits the trade. I usually try to leave things that everyone might enjoy finding.

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I have never seen Christian cachers (or others) complain about non-Christian religious items in caches. Can anyone show me a post where some was ranting against the Star of David, Qur'an, or pentagram they found in a cache?

 

I have seen Christians openly practice religious persecution against Pagan & Wiccan items and TBs in these forums as if it's perfectly okay. :ph34r:

Edited by Snoogans
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I'd probably be more upset if it were mean spirited or not family friendly.

I do occassionally leave religious items, but not very often. It limits the trade. I usually try to leave things that everyone might enjoy finding.

 

This was part of my point earlier. I think 'bible tracts' are often mean-spriited and not family friendly. They are often scary for kids, seem threatening to them and have a message of hate and fear towards others. Jewelry, inspirational poems/prayers, calendars, plaques..etc are different as they often have positive thoughts instead of hate messages with them.

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I'm wondering. What is the OP's motivation for this thread? What is the factual basis for his assertion?

 

I've done a fair amount of caching in a few different states. I think that I've seen this churchy stuff two or three times. But suppose that it had been 20, 50, 100...............? Suppose that there were as many bible tracts in caches as matchbox cars?

 

It's a piece of paper in a cache amongst other pieces of paper and used golf balls.

 

I gotta tell ya though that The Team does not make it a common practice to review the printed material in caches. It's a game called geocaching, not some socio-political research project.

Edited by Team Cotati
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I have never seen Christian cachers (or others) complain about non-Christian religious items in caches. Can anyone show me a post where some was ranting against the Star of David, Qur'an, or pentagram they found in a cache?

 

I have seen Christians openly practice religious persecution against Pagan & Wiccan items and TBs in these forums as if it's perfectly okay. :ph34r:

 

I haven't been in these forums long (or in geocaching for that matter) so I can't show you specific posts about this, but I do see it in every day life. Since I face it often in every day life, I am leary of geocaching changing into a venue for it to happen too. Thus, my feelings on keeping it non-preachy. When you start using a non-religious activity to push a religious agenda, it always leaves someone out. (again, i'm not talking about gift-type things like pendants, crosses, mugs, music, calendars...etc. I'm specifically talking about bible tracts, presuasive literature and sermons of any media.)

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I'm wondering. What is the OP's motivation for this thread? What is the factual basis for his assertion?

 

I've done a fair amount of caching in a few different states. I think that I've seen this churchy stuff two or three times. But suppose that it had been 20, 50, 100...............? Suppose that there were as many bible tracts in caches as matchbox cars?

 

It's a piece of paper in a cache amongst other pieces of paper and used golf balls.

 

I have no clue what his motivation was, but to me it sounded like something he had observed and was just wondering if others had this happening in their areas too. There was a year or so in and around my city where several people from a group would shove hate-filled bible tracts in all the non-mainstream religion books in our local book stores. It was quite offensive. It didn't happen around my work 80-100 miles away, but it was commonplace here. Quite likely, a group in his area has just come to learn about geocaching and thus began putting religious stuff in. It might not be happening nation/ world wide, but it may be very real in his area.

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I have seen Christians openly practice religious persecution against Pagan & Wiccan items and TBs in these forums as if it's perfectly okay. :ph34r:

 

I haven't been in these forums long (or in geocaching for that matter) so I can't show you specific posts about this, but I do see it in every day life. Since I face it often in every day life, I am leary of geocaching changing into a venue for it to happen too. Thus, my feelings on keeping it non-preachy. When you start using a non-religious activity to push a religious agenda, it always leaves someone out. (again, i'm not talking about gift-type things like pendants, crosses, mugs, music, calendars...etc. I'm specifically talking about bible tracts, presuasive literature and sermons of any media.)

 

Emphasis added.

 

Leaving someone out is hardly what I would call persecution. Every time I go to church I leave out all non-church-goers (I persecute the irreligious). Every time I go home, I leave out all non-family members (I persecute the world). I might choose to ignore posters with naked avatars, but it's beside the point, anyway. No one is being prevented from playing the game. No one is being left-out. The sense of not belonging, if it happens at all, is purely a matter of perception. If we are to make that an issue, then I am being persecuted by the people on this forum, because I have never felt like I really belonged. In truth, how I feel is not the issue, because I can still participate just the same as anyone else.

 

If you're worried about how your kids will react, then consider it a perfect chance to teach them about the world we live in.

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I have seen Christians openly practice religious persecution against Pagan & Wiccan items and TBs in these forums as if it's perfectly okay. :ph34r:

 

It's allegorical evidence. I know you're smart enough to realize you're using a fallacious argument.

 

What are ya... an English teacher? :ph34r:

 

FIXED: I have seen Christians openly boast of their practice of religious persecution against Pagan & Wiccan items and TBs in these forums as if it's perfectly okay.

 

When I have time I'll link the thread. Havin' a time with the search feature. I may hafta just go back through my posts one by one.

 

[Edited by moderator to remove potty language.]

Edited by Keystone
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Dropping religious tracts in caches is pushing an agenda, and pushing an agenda is against Groundspeak's rules. Period. Case solved.

 

Mr. Wisearse.

Religious tracts push an agenda, yes, and most people here appear to agree about that.

 

But even if we didn't agree on that, Groundspeak's rules say nothing about leaving items with an agenda. Placing caches with an agenda, correct, that's not allowed. There is nothing about items with agendas in the rules.

What shouldn't be in a cache?

 

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, ammo, knives, drugs, and alcohol shouldn't be placed in a cache. Respect the local laws. All ages of people hide and seek caches, so use some thought before placing an item into a cache.

 

Food items are ALWAYS a BAD IDEA. Animals have better noses than humans, and in some cases caches have been chewed through and destroyed because of food items in a cache. Please do not put food in a cache.

Edited by Dinoprophet
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Dropping religious tracts in caches is pushing an agenda, and pushing an agenda is against Groundspeak's rules. Period. Case solved.

 

Mr. Wisearse.

This is a fallacious argument.

 

The definitive guideline for Cache Contents says the following:

 

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, fireworks, ammo, lighters, knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools), drugs, alcohol or other illicit material shouldn't be placed in a cache. As always respect the local laws. Geocaching is a family activity and cache contents should be suitable for all ages.

 

Food items are ALWAYS a BAD IDEA. Animals have better noses than humans, and in some cases caches have been chewed through and destroyed because food items (or items that smell like food) are in the cache. Even the presence of mint flavored dental floss has led to destruction of one cache.

 

If the original cache contents list any of the above items or other questionable items, or if a cache is reported to have the questionable items, the cache may be disabled, and the owner of the cache will be contacted and asked to remove the questionable items before the cache is enabled.

 

Nothing there about religious trade items, whether they're prayer flags or tracts. Also nothing there about commercial items like business cards or a Budweiser Beer bottle opener.

 

Religious CACHES, as opposed to religious trade items, are governed by the "Caches that Solicit" listing guideline. I would never set up a cache whose trade items or cache description pushed a religious belief. I have set up such a cache, but it is not listed on Geocaching.com. And, I'm working on a cache in my church's parking lot that has a car rally theme, because my church sponsors car rallies every Friday night during the summer, attracting crowds of more than 1,000 each week.

 

Commercial CACHES, as opposed to commercial trade items, are governed by the "Commercial Caches" listing guideline.

 

If one is to advocate for the removal of religious trade items, then I'd be well within my rights to remove any commercial trade items. All those evil promotional items that encourage the consumption of alcoholic beverages would go straight into the trash can.

 

Fallacious arguments are fun to pick apart! :ph34r:

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Fallacious arguments are fun to pick apart! :ph34r:

 

Especially when they're not fallacious! Apparently I just need to be more explicit with you. Here, let me spell it out for you:

 

1. Groundspeak has made it clear from day one that geocaching isn't about agendas (political, religious, social or economic).

 

2. Dropping religious tracts, business solicitations (I agree with you, there), political campaigning ("Hilary or Mit 2008!"), etc, are all about pushing distinct, identifiable agendas.

 

3. Therefore don't drop those tracts.

 

4. Profit!

 

Using my common sense,

Mr. Wisearse.

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Begging your pardon, but having written the last three or four updates to the "Cache Contents," "Commercial Caches" and "Caches that Solicit" guidelines, and having interpreted them for literally hundreds of geocache submissions, all under a separate screen name, of course, I think I have a pretty good idea of what Groundspeak intends by these guidelines.

 

Thanks for your interpretive opinion, though. :ph34r:

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1. Groundspeak has made it clear from day one that geocaching isn't about agendas (political, religious, social or economic).

 

 

http://www.cacheintrashout.org/

 

http://jeep.geocaching.com/

 

http://unite.geocaching.com/

 

They're a business, and businesses are meant to make money (God, I can't believe I've been put into the position of defending Groundpseak).

 

Groundspeak can't profit from you placing "Eat at Joe's" coupons in caches.

 

MrW.

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Begging your pardon, but having written the last three or four updates to the "Cache Contents," "Commercial Caches" and "Caches that Solicit" guidelines, and having interpreted them for literally hundreds of geocache submissions, all under a separate screen name, of course, I think I have a pretty good idea of what Groundspeak intends by these guidelines.

 

Thanks for your interpretive opinion, though. :ph34r:

 

I see, so when you wrote, "Use common sense," I guess what you MEANT to say was, "Just do as I say."

 

Gotcha. Way to go in expressing yourself clearly, champ.

 

MrW.

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I see no contradiction. If I leave one religious tract, crucifix, prayer flag or Star of David in a cache as a trade item, and I'm trading even or better, I am using my common sense, and Signal the Frog is happy.

 

If I leave 25 religious tracts or 14 Buddha statues in a single cache, stuffing it so full that the cover won't even fit, then that is rude and not using common sense. If I am the owner of the cache and those were the original cache contents, then my cache would clearly be promoting a religious agenda. Signal the Frog would be mad.

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1. Groundspeak has made it clear from day one that geocaching isn't about agendas (political, religious, social or economic).

 

 

http://www.cacheintrashout.org/

 

http://jeep.geocaching.com/

 

http://unite.geocaching.com/

 

They're a business, and businesses are meant to make money (God, I can't believe I've been put into the position of defending Groundpseak).

 

Groundspeak can't profit from you placing "Eat at Joe's" coupons in caches.

 

MrW.

 

 

You don't need to defend Groundspeak to me, it's just silly to think that agendas are a bad thing.

 

I agree with The Leprechauns, there's very little difference between a tract and a coupon for 50 cents off hand soap. Now of course you may choose to think there is a difference but for me tracts are way down on the list of inappropriate caching practices that offend my delicate sensibilities.

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I see no contradiction. If I leave one religious tract, crucifix, prayer flag or Star of David in a cache as a trade item, and I'm trading even or better, I am using my common sense, and Signal the Frog is happy.

 

Where are your caches hidden? I belong to a small, though ancient religion, called the "(deleted by moderator)." I have a nice brochure that clearly explains (and more needed to be deleted by moderator)!

 

Oh, while there, I'll drop my ONE (you said it's ok if it's just ONE, so it IS about the numbers, I see) political tract promoting (quite a bit needed to be deleted by moderator).

 

Then I'll place my one social tract, promoting "(deleted by moderator)." "Just try it, you never know!" Of course it may contain some pictures that you may find explicit (hearken back to my (deleted by moderator) discussion), but hey, it's just ONE tract.

 

*sigh*

Way to sit on the fence with your policies, making them so subjective only YOU can interpret them.

 

Mr. Wisearse.

 

[edit: eye spel gud]

Edited by mtn-man
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(deleted by moderator, absolutely no call for this in the forums.)

 

 

I see this conversation has taken a turn for the worse and probably not worth any further effort.

 

As a Christian I will not attack you or return the ugliness. I will simply wish you the best of this world and much peace and happiness.

Edited by mtn-man
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(deleted by moderator, absolutely no call for this in the forums.)

 

I see this conversation has taken a turn for the worse and probably not worth any further effort.

 

As a Christian I will not attack you or return the ugliness. I will simply wish you the best of this world and much peace and happiness.

 

Hypocrite.

 

By saying you won't attack or "return my ugliness," you're in fact attacking me and indeed calling me "ugly"! You should go back to church and work on that, for you're clearly failing as a Christian. One who'd "turn the other cheek" wouldn't have posted what you posted. One who believed in the basic message of love Christ supposedly spread wouldn't have posted such an "ugly" post.

 

But go ahead and fool yourself into thinking you're a good Christian by closing with wishing me peace and love.

 

*rolls eyes*

 

Mr. Wisearse.

Edited by mtn-man
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Remember heehaw means no.

 

If you'd spend more time studying our Holy Scripture (a derivative of the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's "Eight 'I'd Rather You Nots'" called the "Seven 'I'd Rather You Nots'"), you'd know that "heehaw" does in fact translate into English as "Yes, please, more please." As opposed to the infamous "heeeHAW" (note the third "e" and the change in stress to the second syllable) which once translated from the original Greek into Latin then into English means "Please stop that hurts."

 

You see, you have to study these ancients texts very carefully if you want to be a member of our church.

 

Mr.W.

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Hypocrite.

 

By saying you won't attack or "return my ugliness," you're in fact attacking me and indeed calling me "ugly"! You should go back to church and work on that, for you're clearly failing as a Christian. One who'd "turn the other cheek" wouldn't have posted what you posted. One who believed in the basic message of love Christ supposedly spread wouldn't have posted such an "ugly" post.

 

But go ahead and fool yourself into thinking you're a good Christian by closing with wishing me peace and love.

 

*rolls eyes*

 

Mr. Wisearse.

 

Thanks for the food for thought though you misquoted me. I didn't say I wouldn't "return your ugliness", I said I wouldn't return "the ugliness". I do see how a person could miss that small but important difference. Looks like I should think more about the way I express my thoughts and or opinions here.

 

Take care and have a wonderful day!

Edited by bleev
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Regardless of how you view religious items people will be leaving them as swag. And I don't believe gc.com is going to add them to their list of Do Not Leave trade items.

 

When I come across swag that I don't care for I trade even, trade up, or I don't trade at all.

 

That's all I can do.

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FIXED: I have seen Christians openly boast of their practice of religious persecution against Pagan & Wiccan items and TBs in these forums as if it's perfectly okay.

 

 

Nope, not fixed. It's still just allegorical evidence. I've heard agnostics say that all Christians should be rounded up and imprisoned on an island somewhere. That's also just allegorical evidence.

 

George Burns smoked his whole life and died at the ripe age of 100 years old, whereas many non-smokers never live that long. Implied conclusion: not only is it safe to smoke, it may actually be beneficial.

 

Your statement points out an example of something, while failing to provide any useful evidence of general trends. You know someone for whom a thing is true, therefore you presume that the thing is generally true, or you imply it, at least. That's fallacy.

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Lacking a printing press, you find that it is cheaper to push your agenda in the forums, instead....

 

 

A ) I actually have a printing press, but more importantly...

B ) for The Great Esel's sake! I'm just making a point here! I didn't start this thread, I'm just balancing it. I couldn't let the lunacy persist with adding a balance.

 

[edit: added C]

 

C ) I'm not posting this crap in a cache. Folks actively come to the forums to, get this, debate. It's inherent in the word "forum."

 

MrW.

Edited by Mr. & Mrs. Wisearse
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When I have time I'll link the thread. Havin' a time with the search feature. I may hafta just go back through my posts one by one.

 

Were you looking for this thread, Snoogans?

 

Here's my take on it, for what it's worth: for me, the issue is what I perceive as the tone of the thing.

 

There's a difference between someone using their faith in their identity, or expressing it, and proselytizing. One is an expression of identity, and the other is an agenda.

 

I know that if I found religious or political tracts in one of my caches, I'd remove them -- those topics are the two BIG NOs of conversations with strangers for a good reason, I think, and I think the point of a tract is to proselytize. Not sure how I'd handle them in someone else's cache. Probably remove most of them, if there were a wad, and send a note to the cache owner saying, "this stuff is in your cache. If you're cool with it, that's cool, if not, I thought you'd like to know."

 

Obviously, my perception is not going to be other peoples' perception. I know that I am sensitive, perhaps overly so, towards certain forms of Christian identity, probably because in some popular forms of Christianity, proselytizing is considered a form of identification (i.e., it's such an integral part of the belief system that it's not seen as "an agenda" as we're discussing it here, and is therefore considered to be perfectly normal).

 

This is why I'm not sure I'd buy the argument that "Christian tracts are fine because other tracts would be welcome too" -- you're just not going to see other tracts as a matter of course (except as a reaction to Christian tracts), because most non-Christian religions (as far as I know) do not integrate proselytizing into their religion to the same extent.

 

Plus, I perceive that (in the US, at least) there is a large movement to inject (Evangelical) Christianity into public aspects of life (government and education). I'm not talking about generic morals, like "it's bad to lie" or "public service is good", but specific things, like "you must mention God -- and yes, we really are talking about the Christian (not Catholic, heavens no!) form of God as much as we might claim otherwise -- at least once daily". I often get froth-about-the-mouthy about the idea of giving equal time to Christian philosophy (e.g., "Intelligent Design') and science in science classes.

 

As a non-Christian, I just don't like it.

 

Mind you, I don't want to get into a long debate about the nature of ID and whether it is scientific, or what should and shouldn't be taught in schools, or the use and role of religion in government -- I'm just trying to give a background sense of why I'm sensitive to religious (or political) items in caches, and why I often have a knee-jerk negative reaction to the idea of Christian -- particularly, Evangelical-type -- items in caches.

 

But that's me. Regardless of how I might feel about it, I won't alter, deface, trash, or otherwise mess with the majority of Christian-themed, non-proselytizing swag because I think it's important to put cool stuff in caches, and some people find this stuff cool. I'm glad that many cachers find other religions' stuff cool too. Just leave the pushy stuff out is all I ask.

Edited by Jackalgirl
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My take... religious items don't bother me at all. They also don't interest me. I think some folks folks get upset about religious items due to the burning sensations! :)

 

As far as any kind of "paper based" swag... business cards, flyers, tracts... whatever, I think it's almost always a bad idea. Not because of its content, but because it always seems to end up as a handful of wet, moldy mush.

 

I think the best guideline for swag is to leave what you'd like to find (other than the specifically named "no-no" items... knives, drugs, food etc).

 

DCC

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Interesting that a topic regarding church swag would generate such foul-mouthed dialog today. I am glad that I was at an event having fun with fellow cachers and sharing stories (and eating bacon!). There are far better ways to express your points without the potty mouth, childish responses and calling fellow community members names. How about we bring this back to a civil tone at least please.

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There are far better ways to express your points without the potty mouth, childish responses and calling fellow community members names. How about we bring this back to a civil tone at least please.

 

"Potty mouth" ?

where was that in all this

calling fellow community members names

Hypocrite ????

I thought that was a well chosen Title!

 

Mr Wisearse is a fellow scholar and professor of theology and world religion

 

There are far better ways to express your points without the potty mouth, childish responses

 

You in fact (Mtn Man) in this very statement are the one who is calling people names

Stop trying to be the voice of others!

Grow up and be an adult here!

 

You can't silence those that don't share your ideology or views

Embrace the debate

This is America

"Oh I see when the game isn't going your way you just take the ball and leave." :)

What's scaring you? mmm?

 

Just so you know (forum Readers) Mr Wisearse was handed a 14 day ban (by the all mighty Mnt Man) for his opposing (if you can cal it that) view is all this!

Ridiculous absolutely asinine :)

 

We are watching you :)

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I refreshed this thread and the Google AdSense Ad at the top right of the forum page said "God Still Loves Us" in big letters, with a link to a website to give more details.

 

And you know what? He DOES. He loves Mr. Wisearse and Hazzmat, too. They may not realize it, but He does.

 

My opinion of Google AdSense just zoomed. That was the right message at the right time!

 

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread. :)

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Yes, this is America. In America, private companies that provide web services may in fact set their own guidelines regarding the use of those web services. Isn't that great!

 

Some of those guidelines set forth by this web site state:

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

 

Keep on topic: Responses to a particular thread should be on-topic and pertain to the discussion. Users should use the New Topic button to start a new discussion which would otherwise be off-topic in the current thread. Threads that are off topic may be closed by the moderator.

 

Private Discussions: Sometimes, a discussion thread strays off into a friendly dialogue or a heated debate among a very small number of users. For these exchanges, use the private discussion feature that is provided through the Groundspeak forums, or the Geocaching.com e-mail system. Public forum posts should be reserved for matters of interest to the general community.

 

Complaints: If you have an issue with a specific post/topic on this board, please use the ‘report a post’ link in the lower right hand corner of the post. We will review the post and edit/delete if necessary. Any comments on the personnel of Groundspeak or one of the volunteers, please send an e-mail message to contact@Groundspeak.com.

If you are unable to post on topic, then don't post.

If you are unable to show respect to fellow community members (and volunteers), then don't post.

If you are unable to respect the G-Rated nature of these forums, then don't post.

If you have complaints regarding volunteers, then follow the forum guidelines regarding proper handling of those complaints.

 

While I could care less about you "watching me", that comes off as a threat and I will report that to the site administrators for disposition.

 

And my nickname is "mtn-man". I just want to make sure you are "watching" the right person. I will be in LA in a couple of weeks if you want to follow me around and watch me up close. Please notice that I won't be shaking. :)

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You in fact (Mtn Man) in this very statement are the one who is calling people names
Hmm... let's see how many times in this one post you've called names:
Hypocrite ????

I thought that was a well chosen Title!

There's one, calling Lep a hypocrite.
Grow up and be an adult here!
Calling mtn-man a child. Two...
Ridiculous absolutely asinine :)
Asinine? Well, that's three.
You can't silence those that don't share your ideology or views

Embrace the debate

This is America

This is the Groundspeak forums, not America, and as mtn-man said, Groundspeak, or their representatives, can do what they need to those who break the guidelines. It has nothing to do with ideology.
Just so you know (forum Readers) Mr Wisearse was handed a 14 day ban (by the all mighty Mnt Man) for his opposing (if you can cal it that) view is all this!

 

We are watching you :)

Good. I hope you got one for making threats. Edited by Too Tall John
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Have you also seen the increase in Church Swag? Bible tracks, C,D,s or buisness cards? What do you think of this?

 

Well...to get back on topic after the past page or so of..."discussion"...I haven't noticed too much of an increase in Church Swag. With that said, it is not something I would drop, nor is it something I will pickup. It is just not my thing.

 

I have noticed an increase in caches on church property though...kind of a weird feeling finding a cache at a church (no, not at a cemetery...just a church itself)...

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I would really appreciate if a moderator would please delete the above comment about the "donkey" obscenities. This is supposed to be a family friendly site and there are many under-aged members that frequent these forums. I don't mind people debating the OP's topic, but really those comments are completely unnecessary. And, quite frankly, extremely unprofessional for a supposed "scholar of religion" to be spouting off. Foul language is for the uneducated who do not have a large enough vocabulary to express themselves. As a mother and a member of this site, I'm shocked that it has been allowed to remain on this thread as long as it has.

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