"Trees"- How far is too far? Drilling holes, thumb tax, and nails

[mrbeachroach]

How far is to far? I have not started many cahes yet, because I do not want

to do it the wrong way!!! Is it wrong to drill holes in trees that are 100% Dead? Is it wrong to drill holes

in 100% Dead stumps? Is it wrong to cut dead stumps out for hides? Are thumb tax in live trees legite?

What about nails? Lets unravell the concreversy so we are not scared to list new postings!!!!!

[+Trucker Lee]

I would prefer to avoid any action that would damage a living tree, such as nails or screws. Tacks are a smaller diameter and usually wouldn't penetrate past the bark. Keep in mind that putting holes into live trees can open the way for insects and disease, as can needlessly injuring the bark.

 

Dead trees, anything goes. You are not harming the tree then.

[BDSmileys]

if its a living tree, dont hurt it, if its a dead tree, hack it up!

[Keystone]

See the "Be Kind to Trees" thread from two weeks ago. I posted my thoughts there.

[+briansnat]

You would be best off reading the guidelines. They prohibit caches that deface property and I can assure you that reviewers consider drilling into or placing nails or screws into trees to be defacing property. Dead or alive really doesn't matter. It's not YOUR tree.

 

There are many unique ways to hide a cache without resorting to practices that will not reflect positively on our sport. The issue is not whether these practices will hurt a tree. They probably won't, but if we get a reputation with parks officials as "Those people who put nails in trees" it will certainly hurt our sport.

[+StarBrand]

.....

There are many unique ways to hide a cache without resorting to practices that will not reflect positively on our sport. The issue is not whether these practices will hurt a tree. They probably won't, but if we get a reputation with parks officials as "Those people who put nails in trees" it will certainly hurt our sport.

I agree fully. It is the apperance of wrongdoing in the eyes of the landowner that is the problem.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Some of the coolest caches I have found have been "carved out" natural things like stumps, branches, etc.

 

The key is either carve something that belongs to you and then simply place it in a "natural" setting, or get specific permission from the owner of the dead vegetation.

 

I ASSuME that most of the carved thingies I have found belong in the former class.

 

I don't really see the need to use hardware or carve in a dead tree, there is almost always a natural hole there anyway.

 

Another consideration in using dead vegetation is that it decays (that is what it was actively doing before you decided to use it for a cache hide) and your perfectly hollowed out hidey hole will soon be no more than a compost heap or termite mound with a cache lying on top of it.

[+Team Black-Cat]

"Those people who put nails in trees"

 

You mean like the Greenpiece activists out to save the trees?

[+Confucius' Cat]

"Those people who put nails in trees"

 

You mean like the Greenpiece activists out to save the trees?

And kill loggers and lumber mill workers?

[knowschad]

Oh, boy... here we go again.

 

Nails do not kill trees. Loggers do.

 

That said, geocaching.com does not support any nailing of trees, living or dead. I guess its considered to be mutilation or something. I personally think that is an overreaction, but I also have to admit that we have had land-managers in our area overreact to that very thing, so I have tempered my reaction a LITTLE bit.

 

I've seen trees of 50-100 years old with HUGE metal objects going straight through them. I have seen huge trees with tree houses built in them a generation or two ago. All logic and reasoning dictates that we are not going to hurt a tree by pounding a nail in or screwing a screw in. Or sawing a limb off, for that matter. And, no... they no longer even paint tar over the wound when they do that. Daniel Boone carved his initials in trees and those can still be seen (I think that the trees are now dead, but it surely wasn't his carving that did it) Trees are tough critters. But not as tough as Park Managers or Cache Reviewers.

 

I found a cache last weekend that I thought was very much to this point. The cache container was one of those little magnetic nanos that you can buy online (called 'blinkies' in some parts of the country). It was magnetically attached to a nail that had been previously pounded into the tree. The tree had a deer stand also attached with nails (or screws) and some firetacks. All I could think of was "boy, if the park manager only knew about this, he'd ban deer hunting forever". But more likely, he'd assume that a geocacher had done all of that, and ban geocaching instead.

[mrbeachroach]

Man ,what good responce, I see the benifits of all views posted here, the bottom line at the end of the day is probably to modify my own dead trees or stumps and bring them to the cache site. Save the conserversy

thanks

[knowschad]

Man ,what good responce, I see the benifits of all views posted here, the bottom line at the end of the day is probably to modify my own dead trees or stumps and bring them to the cache site. Save the conserversy

thanks

 

I'm afraid to say that that does not satisfy some here. You will find messages eventually where people will condemn hollowing out a log from your own firewood pile and putting it out into the woods. I'm serious.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Well, I doubt that will save any controversy... especially on the forums.

 

is that possible?

 

(Looks like I'm a little late posting)

Edited November 29, 2007 by Confucius' Cat

[mrbeachroach]

Well, I doubt that will save any controversy... especially on the forums.

 

is that possible?

 

(Looks like I'm a little late posting)

"

To all the people that would get upset about drilling holes in my own trees, mabey we should fine them $500.00 for each cache that they start, for littering. Our trashy swag and blown around film canisters are worse for the earth than my 1-2 inch hole"

 

-But im not knocking you, thanks for the dose of realizm.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Well, I doubt that will save any controversy... especially on the forums.

 

is that possible?

 

(Looks like I'm a little late posting)

"

To all the people that would get upset about drilling holes in my own trees, mabey we should fine them $500.00 for each cache that they start, for littering. Our trashy swag and blown around film canisters are worse for the earth than my 1-2 inch hole"

 

-But im not knocking you, thanks for the dose of realizm.

Sad to say, there are those around here who DEFINITELY would disparage your "defacing" of you own property.

 

As Keystone indicated in the other thread, "permission" is pretty much a trump card in the approval process. If you have SPECIFIC permission to place a cache, pretty much anything can be approved (within reasonable limits).

 

I wouldn't fret much over what other people think (even those people who say it might "reflect badly on the caching community") IF you have SPECIFIC permission from the land manager. And especially, don't sweat it that some people will take you to task in the forums. That's par for the course.

 

It is a VERY good idea to put a permission statement on the cache page.

[+ironman114]

Man ,what good responce, I see the benifits of all views posted here, the bottom line at the end of the day is probably to modify my own dead trees or stumps and bring them to the cache site. Save the conserversy

thanks

 

That's what I do:

 

 

[+GeoMire]

There are many ways to attach to a tree without driving in a nail. It also depends on the diameter and length of the nail, and how you are going to utilize it. I have seen very small nails used that don't go past the bark, and a rare earth magnet superglued to hold a bison. The nail was galvanized so that it wouldn't rust. Stumps should be fine, but consider where they are and the environment around them. Don’t change the landscape. Make sure that your hide area looks the same after placement, as it did before. Also, remember the guidelines regarding private property.

[+Scare Force One]

We do our best to protect tree's and yet have no problem bushwaking over rare plants in order to cut 20 minuets off a hike to get a find . I love it.

 

~.~Scare Force One

[+admo1972]

It's all a matter of degrees. Putting a nail in a tree should be just fine. Will the nail harm the tree, most likely not. Is the tree better off before the nail was put in, probably. But so was the terrain before you walked over it. So was the air before you drove to the cache. So was the environment before you fired up your GPS, using up life of the batteries (even if rechargable).

 

If hanging something from a tree makes a great and unique cache, by all means go for it. There is ZERO way to make geocaching zero impact on the environment. The key is low impact. Hand hammering a birdhouse to a tree, or attaching fire tacks to make a night trail, that's all low impact. Just be smart about it, and don't go making a birdhouse multi just because you can.

 

I wonder how many people against putting a nail in a tree have live Christmas trees this year in their house?

[+ReadyOrNot]

It's all a matter of degrees. Putting a nail in a tree should be just fine. Will the nail harm the tree, most likely not. Is the tree better off before the nail was put in, probably. But so was the terrain before you walked over it. So was the air before you drove to the cache. So was the environment before you fired up your GPS, using up life of the batteries (even if rechargable).

 

The problem I've always had with this debate is how much value we put on various things in our environment. One one side of the spectrum, there are those that would want humans removed from the planet because they perceive us as destroyers of all things good and nice. On the other side of the spectrum are those that enjoy destroying everything that crosses their paths... Somewhere right in the middle would be nice.

 

We've got to be able to trade a little enjoyment for a little bit of destruction. They aren't human after all.

[+Quiggle]

It's all a matter of degrees. Putting a nail in a tree should be just fine. Will the nail harm the tree, most likely not. Is the tree better off before the nail was put in, probably. But so was the terrain before you walked over it. So was the air before you drove to the cache. So was the environment before you fired up your GPS, using up life of the batteries (even if rechargable).

 

If hanging something from a tree makes a great and unique cache, by all means go for it. There is ZERO way to make geocaching zero impact on the environment. The key is low impact. Hand hammering a birdhouse to a tree, or attaching fire tacks to make a night trail, that's all low impact. Just be smart about it, and don't go making a birdhouse multi just because you can.

 

When you hide your first cache, be sure to read the guidelines carefully, particularly the off-limits section at http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#offlimit which states:

 

Caches may be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):

 

* Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method.

 

There are ways to hang your bird house [cache] or hide your cache without nails or screws as that's a quick way to get your cache archived.

 

I wonder how many people against putting a nail in a tree have live Christmas trees this year in their house?

If the tree was bought and is now your property, sure. But putting a nail or screw in a tree that's not yours (ie in a park or other public area) is a no-no unless you have permission for that hiding style from the person that owns that tree.

[+Confucius' Cat]

I wonder how many people against putting a nail in a tree have live chopped down and mercilessly killed (can you hear the tree screaming?) Christmas trees this year in their house?

fixed

[+G&B]

One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of trees end up in sawmills eventually. Even a very large nail is unlikely to cause permanent damage to a tree. However, a small nail will damage sawblade teeth. If that nail makes it to a planer or shaper knife, expect even greater damage. The presence of iron will disqualify a tree for use as veneer, which can be a very expensive loss.

 

Granted, this concern does not apply to most state & national public lands since government agencies rarely allow the trees to be harvested, even if they are cut. However, those same agencies usually prohibit damage to trees.

 

Trees have value beyond providing forests for us to walk through, shade for our yards, & knotholes to hide geocaches in.

[+Confucius' Cat]

One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of trees end up in sawmills eventually. Even a very large nail is unlikely to cause permanent damage to a tree. However, a small nail will damage sawblade teeth. If that nail makes it to a planer or shaper knife, expect even greater damage. The presence of iron will disqualify a tree for use as veneer, which can be a very expensive loss.

 

Granted, this concern does not apply to most state & national public lands since government agencies rarely allow the trees to be harvested, even if they are cut. However, those same agencies usually prohibit damage to trees.

 

Trees have value beyond providing forests for us to walk through, shade for our yards, & knotholes to hide geocaches in.

I wonder if a sawmill has ever received a log with a cache hidden in it? That could be pretty interesting.

 

As far as parks allowing trees to be harvested, I think that IS done in some cases so i would not be too sure that your caveat does not apply in parks.

 

It is a very good point. Misguided "tree-hugger" environmentalist whackos often put nails in trees with deliberate intent to damage lumber processing equipment (and to maim or kill lumberjacks) so I think it IS reasonable to assume that such items are indeed dangerous and costly to harvesters of trees.

[knowschad]

There are many ways to attach to a tree without driving in a nail. .. a rare earth magnet superglued to hold a bison.

 

Nice idea, but even the best superglue or epoxy isn't going to be any stronger than the bark that it is glued to.

 

I have seen SO many objects engulfed by trees that I have to think that the trees are the enemy, and not the 'things'. I've seen barbed wire running right thru the center of trees, a 1" thick iron cable and eyebolt, and railroad spikes. I've seen deer blinds, tree houses (including "real" houses costing thousands of dollars built in trees). It isn't a matter of these things injuring the tree. Its all a matter of perception (and perception of the ignorant, at that, IMHO, but that only MHO).

 

Now, ask me about importing buckthorn as a decorative landscaping plant... I dare you!

[+Confucius' Cat]

Now, ask me about importing buckthorn as a decorative landscaping plant... I dare you!

Or kudzu

Or foreign pine lumber

Or firewood from an area infested with emerald ash borers

Or Chinese lady bugs

Or Chinese chestnut veneer

Or pond scum on your shoes or boat bottom

Or...

[knowschad]

Now, ask me about importing buckthorn as a decorative landscaping plant... I dare you!

Or kudzu

 

OMG, yes!! Anyone that doesn't know what Kudzu is only needs to Google it. Buckthorn is a teddy-bear compared to kudzu.

[+briansnat]

I wonder how many people against putting a nail in a tree have live Christmas trees this year in their house?

 

The difference is that I own the Christmas tree.

[Mag Magician]

Since we live and cache in the bush, trees are beneficial in placing hides. Of the 51 hides we have, 44 of them are placed in some way with the aid of a tree. Some are hidden in natural crotches, some in natural holes, and some are just hung from a branch with light wire. All are designed to be winter available which means keeping them above the snow line. One is attached to the bark with C/A glue.

 

Please note! Not one of these caches was placed using a nail or screw! That is against Groundspeak guidelines, so we just don't do it.

[+elmuyloco5]

 

Granted, this concern does not apply to most state & national public lands since government agencies rarely allow the trees to be harvested, even if they are cut. However, those same agencies usually prohibit damage to trees.

 

I wonder if a sawmill has ever received a log with a cache hidden in it? That could be pretty interesting.

 

As far as parks allowing trees to be harvested, I think that IS done in some cases so i would not be too sure that your caveat does not apply in parks.

 

 

We have State and National Park land here that both allow cutting for firewood in designated areas (and there's lots of them). Not to mention all of the signs that they have nailed to trees within both types of land. There are parking signs, warning signs, info signs, trail markers, etc. All nailed, all by NPS and the National and State Forest Systems.

[+sholomar]

I found a bison tube in a tree that was bleeding sap profusely at the cache site. I could not remove the cache ... it looked like they might have secured it so it had to be unscrewed at the tree and not removed. Not sure. It was at an elevation where some climbing was required to access. What action would you take with the listing? Its GC17NJK.

Edited September 24, 2014 by sholomar

[+NeverSummer]

[+NeverSummer]

I found a bison tube in a tree that was bleeding sap profusely at the cache site. I could not remove the cache ... it looked like they might have secured it so it had to be unscrewed at the tree and not removed. Not sure. It was at an elevation where some climbing was required to access. What action would you take with the listing? Its GC17NJK.

If you were able to find the cache and sign the log, log a "Found it" online, and mention the sap issue.

 

From there, I'd email the owner and ask if you found the correct container. If you did, then I think you're ready to move on to the next cache to find.

 

If you have a burning question about the allowable attachment options for trees, you can reach out to your local Reviewer to ask about what you found. Lastly, ask, don't "tattle". If you're unsure about things, be sure to approach it that way. There might be circumstances for that hide you are unaware of, but the owner and Reviewer might know.

[+narcissa]

It really doesn't matter how much you believe you are hurting the tree. Key relevant questions to ask yourself:

 

1. Do you own the tree?

2. If no, do you have the tree owner's permission to put a nail or a screw into the tree?

 

If no, don't.

 

If yes, go for it.

[+cerberus1]

Seems weird that sap's still running out almost seven years later.

We leave topped-off trees to be removed later, standing (future firewood, or no room for em at the time) and right after branch cutting, place a few spikes for woodpecker suet cages.

- None have leaked sap after a few weeks.

[+Chrysalides]

Seems weird that sap's still running out almost seven years later.

We leave topped-off trees to be removed later, standing (future firewood, or no room for em at the time) and right after branch cutting, place a few spikes for woodpecker suet cages.

- None have leaked sap after a few weeks.

Doesn't that depend on the species of tree, and possibly the time of year? Pine trees seem to secrete sap even when there's no cuts on them.

[+GeoBain]

Keep in mind that putting holes into live trees can open the way for insects and disease, as can needlessly injuring the bark.

 

It is so damaging that the local tree commission nails "Landmark Tree" signs to all the 100+ year old oak trees in the city.

[+narcissa]

Keep in mind that putting holes into live trees can open the way for insects and disease, as can needlessly injuring the bark.

 

It is so damaging that the local tree commission nails "Landmark Tree" signs to all the 100+ year old oak trees in the city.

 

Regardless of how damaging it is or isn't, if you don't have explicit permission, don't do it.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Keep in mind that putting holes into live trees can open the way for insects and disease, as can needlessly injuring the bark.

 

It is so damaging that the local tree commission nails "Landmark Tree" signs to all the 100+ year old oak trees in the city.

 

When discussing putting screws/nails in to trees, it's not the damage to trees I'm concerned about. It's the damage to the perception that land managers have toward the game of geocaching, as a result of discovering a bunch of people that are *not* in the local tree commission defacing trees.

 

 

[+GeoBain]

Keep in mind that putting holes into live trees can open the way for insects and disease, as can needlessly injuring the bark.

 

It is so damaging that the local tree commission nails "Landmark Tree" signs to all the 100+ year old oak trees in the city.

 

Regardless of how damaging it is or isn't, if you don't have explicit permission, don't do it.

 

The same could be said about cache placements in general.

[+narcissa]

Keep in mind that putting holes into live trees can open the way for insects and disease, as can needlessly injuring the bark.

 

It is so damaging that the local tree commission nails "Landmark Tree" signs to all the 100+ year old oak trees in the city.

 

Regardless of how damaging it is or isn't, if you don't have explicit permission, don't do it.

 

The same could be said about cache placements in general.

 

Absolutely. Always review land management policies to make sure geocaching is permitted. When in doubt, ask. Don't play monkey-see, monkey-do.

[+GeoBain]

Keep in mind that putting holes into live trees can open the way for insects and disease, as can needlessly injuring the bark.

 

It is so damaging that the local tree commission nails "Landmark Tree" signs to all the 100+ year old oak trees in the city.

 

When discussing putting screws/nails in to trees, it's not the damage to trees I'm concerned about. It's the damage to the perception that land managers have toward the game of geocaching, as a result of discovering a bunch of people that are *not* in the local tree commission defacing trees.

 

This argument has come up many times before. There are those that insist you should not be able to put a nail or screw even in your own tree because it will damage the tree.

 

I am fine with people arguing the perception point of view. If it doesn't belong to you, you should take great care how you treat it.

 

Just don't keep bringing up the nail holes in live trees are gonna kill them argument. It's bunk.

 

If you don't own it, don't deface it. Not because it is harmful, but because vandalism is frowned upon.

[+narcissa]

There are those that insist you should not be able to put a nail or screw even in your own tree because it will damage the tree.

 

And these are exactly the people who have a heart attack when they see a geocache nailed to a tree and end up causing trouble. These are the people who form (albeit unreasonable) poor perceptions that lead to us not being able to geocache in places like provincial parks.

[+GeoBain]

These are the people who form (albeit unreasonable) poor perceptions that lead to us not being able to geocache in places like provincial parks.

 

Valid argument. I never argued against this point of view.

 

I would prefer to avoid any action that would damage a living tree, such as nails or screws. Tacks are a smaller diameter and usually wouldn't penetrate past the bark. Keep in mind that putting holes into live trees can open the way for insects and disease, as can needlessly injuring the bark.

 

Dead trees, anything goes. You are not harming the tree then.

 

Invalid argument. Nails and screws don't harm the trees. This is what I argued against.

 

I'm ok with the no nails or screws in trees guideline for the same reason I am fine with not spray painting buildings you don't own.

[+NeverSummer]

These are the people who form (albeit unreasonable) poor perceptions that lead to us not being able to geocache in places like provincial parks.

 

Valid argument. I never argued against this point of view.

 

I would prefer to avoid any action that would damage a living tree, such as nails or screws. Tacks are a smaller diameter and usually wouldn't penetrate past the bark. Keep in mind that putting holes into live trees can open the way for insects and disease, as can needlessly injuring the bark.

 

Dead trees, anything goes. You are not harming the tree then.

 

Invalid argument. Nails and screws don't harm the trees. This is what I argued against.

 

I'm ok with the no nails or screws in trees guideline for the same reason I am fine with not spray painting buildings you don't own.

You know you're arguing with a topic/post nearly 7 years old, right? Just sayin'...

[+GeoBain]

These are the people who form (albeit unreasonable) poor perceptions that lead to us not being able to geocache in places like provincial parks.

 

Valid argument. I never argued against this point of view.

 

I would prefer to avoid any action that would damage a living tree, such as nails or screws. Tacks are a smaller diameter and usually wouldn't penetrate past the bark. Keep in mind that putting holes into live trees can open the way for insects and disease, as can needlessly injuring the bark.

 

Dead trees, anything goes. You are not harming the tree then.

 

Invalid argument. Nails and screws don't harm the trees. This is what I argued against.

 

I'm ok with the no nails or screws in trees guideline for the same reason I am fine with not spray painting buildings you don't own.

You know you're arguing with a topic/post nearly 7 years old, right? Just sayin'...

 

Yep, but it's one that hasn't changed in 7 years.

Edited September 24, 2014 by GeoBain

[+Bear and Ragged]

You know you're arguing with a topic/post nearly 7 years old, right? Just sayin'...

 

It WAS 7 years old... Until post #31

Posted Today, 05:56 PM

I found a bison tube in a tree that was bleeding sap profusely at the cache site. I could not remove the cache ... it looked like they might have secured it so it had to be unscrewed at the tree and not removed. Not sure. It was at an elevation where some climbing was required to access. What action would you take with the listing? Its GC17NJK.

[+cerberus1]

Seems weird that sap's still running out almost seven years later.

We leave topped-off trees to be removed later, standing (future firewood, or no room for em at the time) and right after branch cutting, place a few spikes for woodpecker suet cages.

- None have leaked sap after a few weeks.

Doesn't that depend on the species of tree, and possibly the time of year? Pine trees seem to secrete sap even when there's no cuts on them.

Well, kinda.

One of CJ's deer stands is in a white pine (the softest tree we have) and with the branches cut to fit and a few timber spikes to keep it secure, all "leaking" stopped before the next season.

 

"I found a bison tube in a tree that was bleeding sap profusely at the cache site. I could not remove the cache ... it looked like they might have secured it so it had to be unscrewed at the tree and not removed." seems (to me) to say a hole was drilled for placement.

- But he did say he wasn't sure (and hasn't been back to explain).

If the hole was roughly the size of the bison (pretty-much a plug), I think it would've healed by now (7 years later).

[+NeverSummer]

Old wounds can heal, so long as they aren't picked at...I think.

 

Just like this thread! I think this topic has been covered significantly before, during and after 2007. Arguing is moot, and not unlike opening the wound for more sap to drip.

 

But hey, I'm no arborist.

 

The new post is sort-of on topic, as it is related to trees and use of nails, screws, holes, and other attachment/hide methods that pierce through the bark. But, the best course of action for the new poster is to contact the owner, and if concerned about the hide against the guidelines, notify a reviewer. This thread had the guidelines and Reviewer comment posted here, above. http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=178657&view=findpost&p=3178178

Edited September 24, 2014 by NeverSummer

[+sholomar]

Sorry about the bumping of the old thread... been spending too much time on city-data's forums.

 

It seems like trees can handle nails because they can heal that wound but the repeated removal of a cache situated in an open wound keeps the wound from closing... CO would have been better off nailing a nail there and hanging the cache from the nail rather than having the gaping bleeding holek that cant heal without eventually trapping the cache inside.. a wound that gets reopened every time someone attempts to remove said cache hence the 10 inch long 2 inch wide trail of sap running out... then again we tap maple trees for their sap in the spring so I might be making too much out of no big deal...

Edited September 25, 2014 by sholomar