Rino and Search/Rescue

[TomOfTarsus]

Oh, and yes, I've poked around a bit before starting this...

 

I have an autistic son. He doesn't wander off much and responds when called (if he's in earshot), but the thought of equipping him and my wife & I with Rinos sounds appealing, if expensive. He's communcative and faily tech-savvy (uses the computer, plays some video games, can use the telephone, etc.), so I think could teach him to transmit his position so that we could find him.

 

But surprisingly, Garmin's site didn't list the chipset, antenna, etc. for the Rino, what is the top model, 530? I'd like a comparison to the GPSMAP 60CSx (my current lust-after...) as far a geocaching and general outdoor use (hiking, biking, etc). I imagine it could be pretty clunky on my handlebars, but as long as it doesn't fall off, I don't reckon it'd be too bad... I could always just belt clip it, or even leave it in the luch pack in the back.

 

As well, if we were so equipped, we could help others who have loved ones that wander off. Then, having the radio could be a huge plus. Cell phones don't work everywhere, when life could be on the line I say belts and suspenders!

 

So anybody involved in SAR ops out there? I haven't seen much on the Rinos here...

 

Thanks all,

 

Tom

[-Oz-]

For SAR on skis (and probably elsewhere) we use radios with a lot more range than the Rinos can get. We use a seperate GPS if we need to call in locations. Our radios also communicate with helicopters and other auxiliary units.

 

Now, on the Rinos. I do use them dirt biking. Since I don't have the new ones (hcx) I can't comment on their signal but on the 120s we have it sucks compared to the 60csx. They do work well though as long as you're within radio range.

 

Onto whether it would be useful. I have done one rescue where I used the little motorola radio I carry (normally to talk to my friends) on a rescue because I could talk directly to the victim and get everything I needed to know before I left.

 

Now, from a SAR perspective they probably will not be carrying rinos but if you really need SAR they'd take yours and probably just hike with it and keep pinging for your son's radio. It would help significantly once they were within range.

 

Dan

Ski Patroller, EMT-B

[TomOfTarsus]

Thanks, Oz. We've never been faced with a situation where he'd be several miles away - more like half a mile or so (still would be good to know that range is covered). If he thinks he's lost it upsets him and so he tends to avoid doing that, but sometimes gets distracted and separated from us, things like that. It can actually be worse say, at the mall, where he isn't as far away but one can hardly go about bellowing his name. Amusement parks come to mind as well, although that could be problematic on extreme rides - I understand these things store your tracks, that would be interesting! But more realistically, I wouldn't want to lose the thing, they are a chunk of change.

 

Of course it would make sense that for wide area stuff you'd need LR radios that communicate with aircraft, etc.

 

Anybody else out there using Rinos or know much about them? SirfStar , quad helix, what are they like? they kinda look like the 60 CSx externally, so I'm hoping they have the good antenna and chipset, and close enough caching capabilities to the 60's...

 

Thanks again,

 

Tom

[TomOfTarsus]

Sorry to DP, but I've done more digging and it seems the SiRFstar III is not used in the 530, but the quad helix is. Plus it seems you can't use bigger microSD cards, etc.

 

<sigh> I realize there's only so much space in these things, but the trade-offs all the time sure make decision making tough...

 

Still looking for more opinions if anyone's handy...

 

Tom

[Motorcycle_Mama]

I hope this doesn't offend you and you don't say how old your son is, but have you looked at the Garmin Astro.

 

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=8576&tab=astro

 

Maybe it would work on a belt loop.

[TomOfTarsus]

No, it doesn't offend me, thanks! I never really thought of it. It would be nice to have some way of finding not only him, but my wife. Oh yes, hidden agenda! My poor wife could get lost in a telephone booth. The thoughts with the Rino was that if we all had one (mega-$$$), we could talk to, and find, each other. And have something useful for travel/biking/hiking/caching.

 

Although as I thought about it, I doubt if even SiRFstar would work very well inside the mall, better at an amusement park or out in the weeds. And the Rino apparently doesn't have it anyway. But at the mall, we could probably use voice directions...

 

Thanks, though, and don't worry. When you have a loved one like this, alternative uses for technology generally aren't offensive, we understand.

 

Tom

 

ETA: Followed the link - The specs seem to say the guts are pretty much identical with the 60CSx. Didn't seem to say much about caching, though, on a quick scan of the specs. Tradeoffs, choices... I could give each of them a DC-20 and a Midland radio and get almost the same results, at least as far as me going to them. No NOAA weather alerts, either. More tradeoffs...

 

Any more thoughts out there?

Edited November 26, 2007 by TomOfTarsus

[-Oz-]

The 520 and 530Hcx should match the 60c(s)x pretty closely. Its the new high sensitivity chip used in the vista/legend h series and it is a high sensitivity chip. Honestly if i were to redo my purchase I would probably get a 520/530hcx over my 60csx because we have other Rinos. They do allow the use of microsd cards too.

 

Regarding your locations, amusements parks work great, we use motorola radios there all the time and its pretty open most of the time so GPS will work, on the other hand the GPS signal probably won't penetrate a mall.

 

Ranges on the FRS/GMRS radios are dependant on the terrain. On the top of ski mountains I've gone 3-5 miles easily but then couldn't contact someone 1/2 mile away because they were on the opposite side of a mountain. But via line of sight they are technically 14mi range. Generally though within 2 miles you'll get a signal no problem. Also, if he or your wife panicked you can just "ping" them and their location will immediately show on your rino's screen and they don't even have to know you did it or do anything.

 

Regarding losing them. I'd say grab one of these radio harnesses, i have worn my 60csx and another radio skiing, rock climbing, hiking, and dirt biking and we have others that hold just the rinos. http://www.conterra-inc.com/index.php?cPath=10 I have 1 double adjusta pro for my ski patrol radio/60csx/motorola radio depending on what I'm carrying and two adjusta-pro harnesses for dirt biking with Rino 120s.

[rhitchco]

I am a long-term member (crew boss / team leader) of a state-accredited wilderness search & rescue team. I think this is really an interesting idea. If your son is in an area where he could or would wander off and you hang a device on him that can relay his GPS coords to a receiver via radio or whatever, that could potentially save a lot of work locating him (and potentially a lot of grief). I'm not all that familiar with the Rino model but my understanding is that it incorporates a GPS with a GMRS radio transmitter/receiver and can transmit GPS coords between units. GMRS radio has very limited range and SAR teams all use much (much!) more powerful VHF radios, but still...if the Rino can send it's coords to another Rino without active work on the part of the sender (i.e. your son), this provides an option that could potentially be lifesaving. As long as the batteries last, that is. Very handy for you and potentially useful for a SAR team.

 

If our team responded to a callout like this and knew that your son was wearing a GMRS radio that was likely transmitting GPS coordinates, we'd move heaven and earth to get a bunch of these units almost instantly (there are ways of doing this) and try to equip every field team with them in hopes of getting his signal. It also opens up the possibility of being able to zero in on him quicky with helicopters and/or ATVs by flying/driving around likely area in hopes of picking up the signal.

 

The GPS accuracy really does not need to be all that terrific; if we can get even an approximate fix we can get there quickly. If it were my son, I'd really consider it seriously.

 

Alternatively...and maybe better, at least for a SAR team trying to find him...give him a sealed-up GPS capable cell phone to carry (one he cannot turn off). The battery will last a long time and if he's in an area of cell service and if that area is properly equipped (most are now), we can ring his phone (he need not answer) and get his GPS location. Or trangulate between towers. And this will last for days if necessary.

 

The ultimate answer might be a PLB...but that depends on his being able to activate it and knowing when and how to activate it. The huge plus here is that a SAR team can walk right to him. The downside is that they are expensive and false or non-critical alarms are highly frowned on and possibly subject to huge fines.

 

Oh...we all use GPS units of course, in our case Garmin 60CSx models. They are excellent.

 

Good idea!

[holcombr]

Here in Idaho, I have had occassion to use the "polling" feature.It uses the RADIO SIDE of the unit and not the satelight side...so...you are controlled by line of sight.

My buddys (dirt bikers we are) all have the rino series. When seperated by a mountain or a LOT of trees, it makes it harder to get a "presence" signal. When you ride to the top of a hil and "PING" them by pressing the talk button it will give you there location.

All you have to do is select the location and choose "GO TO" it will guide you just like an address.

Make sure EVERYBODY is on the same channell and squelch code.

I have used the Rino 530 for 9 months and now am buying the Rino 530 HCX..........It is a much better unit.

[TomOfTarsus]

Much thanks to you three! Sorry to have disappeared. When I started this thread I was in Tenessee, I wne home for a day and got popped off to san Juan, Puerto Rico, where I'm holed up in a hotel room after testing the last two days. Yii. I wanna go home!

 

Things are starting to come in to focus here.

1. Yes, it only makes sense that the pinging is via the radio and so can be severly limited by terrain.

2. Somehow I'd completely missed the 530 HCx. Yes, that does look like a 60CSx with a radio! Now I'm wondering if it has the prodigious card capability of the 60... I e. is it really a 60, or can't you do as much with the maas, etc. when hiking/biking/caching?

3. The potential fly in the ointment is everyone being on he same freq., "squelch code" etc.

4. A PLB (took me a minute there) is very interesting, I'll at least look at it.

5. The cell phone is an interesting as well. As I said, he can speak well and is surprisingly tech savvy. He wouldn't turn it off deliberately.

 

In a full scale SAR with a bunch of these things you'd have to set up your patterns with the line of site thing in mind. Wouldn't it be some kind of neat to have such a unit with VHF radios?

 

I'm liking the sounds of this 530 HCx. though. Can it do it all with the maps & stuf that the 60CSx uses?

 

Thanks again,

 

Tom

[rhitchco]

"In a full scale SAR with a bunch of these things you'd have to set up your patterns with the line of site thing in mind. Wouldn't it be some kind of neat to have such a unit with VHF radios?"

 

Yes, it would be VERY neat! Right now, when we go out, we're loaded with electronics (GMRS radio, 500 channel VHF radio, a second radio dedicated to helicopter comms, cell phone, GPS, night-vision, lights, etc.) in addition to a (usually) 45 lb pack (this is a wilderness SAR team). Anything that could compact some of this would be most welcome. It would also be extremely useful if a team could "poll" the locations of other relatively nearby teams and display them on the GPS's topo map. What happens now is that we periodically call in our coords over the radio to the search base and they update a computer map (MapTech) so as to keep track of who's where and can view the relative locations of the teams. If we need to hook up with another team or proceed to a location, we can either punch in the coords they give us or travel on a compass bearing provided by the base.

 

If somebody would produce a 60CSx grade GPS married to a good many-channel VHF radio...like the Rino but with more guts...perfect!

 

mogul2us

[kb9nvh]

A CAP flyer with a rhino could work wonders where folks on the ground would be hard pressed to get a signal from your lost boy. I've considered this myself if I ever had an occasion to take my kids to the mountain wilderness. If lost, a guy in a plane/helecopter would probably get an instant fix on your boy.

 

I dont think cell coverage is all that great in wilderness areas, especially in the mountains unless your on top.

 

I am a long-term member (crew boss / team leader) of a state-accredited wilderness search & rescue team. I think this is really an interesting idea. If your son is in an area where he could or would wander off and you hang a device on him that can relay his GPS coords to a receiver via radio or whatever, that could potentially save a lot of work locating him (and potentially a lot of grief). I'm not all that familiar with the Rino model but my understanding is that it incorporates a GPS with a GMRS radio transmitter/receiver and can transmit GPS coords between units. GMRS radio has very limited range and SAR teams all use much (much!) more powerful VHF radios, but still...if the Rino can send it's coords to another Rino without active work on the part of the sender (i.e. your son), this provides an option that could potentially be lifesaving. As long as the batteries last, that is. Very handy for you and potentially useful for a SAR team.

 

If our team responded to a callout like this and knew that your son was wearing a GMRS radio that was likely transmitting GPS coordinates, we'd move heaven and earth to get a bunch of these units almost instantly (there are ways of doing this) and try to equip every field team with them in hopes of getting his signal. It also opens up the possibility of being able to zero in on him quicky with helicopters and/or ATVs by flying/driving around likely area in hopes of picking up the signal.

 

The GPS accuracy really does not need to be all that terrific; if we can get even an approximate fix we can get there quickly. If it were my son, I'd really consider it seriously.

 

Alternatively...and maybe better, at least for a SAR team trying to find him...give him a sealed-up GPS capable cell phone to carry (one he cannot turn off). The battery will last a long time and if he's in an area of cell service and if that area is properly equipped (most are now), we can ring his phone (he need not answer) and get his GPS location. Or trangulate between towers. And this will last for days if necessary.

 

The ultimate answer might be a PLB...but that depends on his being able to activate it and knowing when and how to activate it. The huge plus here is that a SAR team can walk right to him. The downside is that they are expensive and false or non-critical alarms are highly frowned on and possibly subject to huge fines.

 

Oh...we all use GPS units of course, in our case Garmin 60CSx models. They are excellent.

 

Good idea!

Edited December 2, 2007 by kb9nvh

[davesoferie]

I have both a rino 110 (low end) and Rino 530HCX (high end). Some comments on my experiences with them.

 

Rino 110 -- accuracy good. WAAS capable. Sometimes more accuract with WAAS off!. Satelite reception very good outside; fair indoors, very tight ravines. Radio works well with a max 2 watt on GMRS channels. Range is 1 to 1.5 miles line of sight. About 3/4 mile woods with no hills in line of sight.

 

Rino 530 -- Accuracy very good. WAAS capable. Satelite reception good indoors. By indoors I mean a house with aluminum siding. Malls etc. would be much less if at all due primarily to RF interference. Outdoors even works well in tight ravines. Radio works with a max of 5 watts on GMRS channels. Range is around 2 miles line of sight. Around 1 to 1.5 miles range in woods with no hills in line of sight. The finder should have this unit because of its ability to overlay topo maps. The 110 unit cannot do this.

 

Each unit can poll to other providing that they are transmitting/recv. on same channel and privacy code. The goto function works very well.

 

I have had some difficulty communicating with other GMRS or FRS units using the privacy code. (most notably the Motorola units) No problems on open channel use however.

 

Both units have as their limiting feature on the radio, the antenna. However the short antenna allows ease of use.

[-Oz-]

I have had some difficulty communicating with other GMRS or FRS units using the privacy code. (most notably the Motorola units) No problems on open channel use however.

I have never had issues between Rino 120s and my motorola radios. Its odd that you would be.

[kb9nvh]

I know that there was some incompatibilities between units as far as the privacy codes go (same codes but defined on different "numbers"). I looked into this when buying my frs radios so I could talk to my sisters family.

 

I have had some difficulty communicating with other GMRS or FRS units using the privacy code. (most notably the Motorola units) No problems on open channel use however.

I have never had issues between Rino 120s and my motorola radios. Its odd that you would be.

[+JohnnyVegas]

"In a full scale SAR with a bunch of these things you'd have to set up your patterns with the line of site thing in mind. Wouldn't it be some kind of neat to have such a unit with VHF radios?"

 

This can be done with a hand held ham radio, These radios are linked to repeaters and will have a much better range (Several miles) than depending in line of sight comm. The set up can be a little complicated as far as link to a GPS but quite a few hams do this, You may be able to get a local ham radio operator to held you with the set up. and every that use a ham radio will need to have a license, but the basic Tech. lic. is a fairly easy one.

[kb9nvh]

Your allowed to have repeaters with GMRS (legal). Setting up a mobile GMRS repeater in a vehicle on a high hill will allow teams in different valleys to talk to each other. I dont know if garmins has an "exclusion" to allow thier "postion data" to be transmitted on GMRS but I believe I read that the did somewhere. If they transmit on GMRS frequencies then a mobile GMRS repeater would be an easy and legal set up.

 

Todd

 

"In a full scale SAR with a bunch of these things you'd have to set up your patterns with the line of site thing in mind. Wouldn't it be some kind of neat to have such a unit with VHF radios?"

 

This can be done with a hand held ham radio, These radios are linked to repeaters and will have a much better range (Several miles) than depending in line of sight comm. The set up can be a little complicated as far as link to a GPS but quite a few hams do this, You may be able to get a local ham radio operator to held you with the set up. and every that use a ham radio will need to have a license, but the basic Tech. lic. is a fairly easy one.

[jmedlock]

I live in the southern mountains of New Mexico and am part of an S&R team. Several people on our team are HAM-licensed (Technician) and we held a SAR/HAM radio field test a few weeks ago to test:

• Simplex SAR communications: normal mode of communications using state SAR frequencies.
  
• Repeater SAR communications: using a newly developed portable SAR repeater using state SAR frequencies.
  
• HAM Repeater: the USA is full of HAM repeaters, several are in our area alone.
  

The HAM repeater provided the best communication.

 

If anyone is interested in seeing the paper I wrote describing our tests and results, then lemme know and I'll email it.

 

Justin

[kb9nvh]

I would think that repeater location would be everything for quality communications. Was the SAR repeater close to the HAM repeater location or somewhere completely different?

 

For th HAM case, what band were you in 440, 2m?

 

What frequency are SAR's communications assigned?

 

I live in the southern mountains of New Mexico and am part of an S&R team. Several people on our team are HAM-licensed (Technician) and we held a SAR/HAM radio field test a few weeks ago to test:

• Simplex SAR communications: normal mode of communications using state SAR frequencies.
  
• Repeater SAR communications: using a newly developed portable SAR repeater using state SAR frequencies.
  
• HAM Repeater: the USA is full of HAM repeaters, several are in our area alone.
  

The HAM repeater provided the best communication.

 

If anyone is interested in seeing the paper I wrote describing our tests and results, then lemme know and I'll email it.

 

Justin

[jmedlock]

I would think that repeater location would be everything for quality communications. Was the SAR repeater close to the HAM repeater location or somewhere completely different?

 

For th HAM case, what band were you in 440, 2m?

 

What frequency are SAR's communications assigned?

 

I live in the southern mountains of New Mexico and am part of an S&R team. Several people on our team are HAM-licensed (Technician) and we held a SAR/HAM radio field test a few weeks ago to test:

• Simplex SAR communications: normal mode of communications using state SAR frequencies.
  
• Repeater SAR communications: using a newly developed portable SAR repeater using state SAR frequencies.
  
• HAM Repeater: the USA is full of HAM repeaters, several are in our area alone.
  

The HAM repeater provided the best communication.

 

If anyone is interested in seeing the paper I wrote describing our tests and results, then lemme know and I'll email it.

 

Justin

 

Hi,

 

We used a local 2m HAM repeater, and the SAR frequencies are all commercial VHF (155.16, 155.205, etc).

 

I put our test document and results at the location below - it has a lot more information:

 

http://home.beyondbb.com/jmedlock/WMSAR_Ra...est_Results.pdf

 

We need to do more tests, but HAM and a portable SAR repeater are our best bets in our mountainous terrain. Unfortunately the HAM repeater antennae took quite a beating last weekend with 55+mph winds, so I'm not sure when that will be fixed.

 

Let me know if you have any question.

Justin

[kb9nvh]

Well, the band is nearly the same (144MHz vs 155Mhz) and I'll bet that power is close also so ones as good as another which brings you down to equipment availability and cost. Ham probably has the advantage here.

 

There are lots of HAM options and lots of equipment and folks to run it...the only drawback is you need to be licensed to use it.

 

Lots have HAMS just love to volunteer since they need a reason to be HAMS besides just jibber jabbin.

 

kb9nvh

Todd

 

I would think that repeater location would be everything for quality communications. Was the SAR repeater close to the HAM repeater location or somewhere completely different?

 

For th HAM case, what band were you in 440, 2m?

 

What frequency are SAR's communications assigned?

 

I live in the southern mountains of New Mexico and am part of an S&R team. Several people on our team are HAM-licensed (Technician) and we held a SAR/HAM radio field test a few weeks ago to test:

• Simplex SAR communications: normal mode of communications using state SAR frequencies.
  
• Repeater SAR communications: using a newly developed portable SAR repeater using state SAR frequencies.
  
• HAM Repeater: the USA is full of HAM repeaters, several are in our area alone.
  

The HAM repeater provided the best communication.

 

If anyone is interested in seeing the paper I wrote describing our tests and results, then lemme know and I'll email it.

 

Justin

 

Hi,

 

We used a local 2m HAM repeater, and the SAR frequencies are all commercial VHF (155.16, 155.205, etc).

 

I put our test document and results at the location below - it has a lot more information:

 

http://home.beyondbb.com/jmedlock/WMSAR_Ra...est_Results.pdf

 

We need to do more tests, but HAM and a portable SAR repeater are our best bets in our mountainous terrain. Unfortunately the HAM repeater antennae took quite a beating last weekend with 55+mph winds, so I'm not sure when that will be fixed.

 

Let me know if you have any question.

Justin

[TomOfTarsus]

Wow! Glad I got something going here!

 

Once again I abandoned the thread for another trip - I got popped down to Tennessee, but this time was able to take my b'loved wife. We went through the Smokies and visited the Biltmore (you need a GPS just to get around that cat's YARD!!!). I'd have loved to had a unit just to watch my elevation changing.

I don't have time to say all I want to say, but thanks to everyone, I'm learning.

 

As regards this thread, whilst in the Smokies, cell was indeed quite limited, although I think if you dial 911 you get extra broadcast power. Don't know how that helps reception, though. I'm an ignoramus on that topic.

 

davesoferie, thanks for the info. Looking through things here, I wonder if Garmin could look into the repeater thing. We live in similar terrain, although it's a little more rugged in northwestern PA (Cook Forest, Allegeny Nat'l forest, etc), and we like to visit that area anyway. kb9nvh, you're also correct (good tip!) about the CAP fly boys.

 

Back to Dave, are there any external antennas that could aid the stituation, GPS and/or radio?

 

HAM is kinda out as my son couldn't handle the licencing exam, I don't think - for me it looks like the Rino or nothing as far as the personal/family SAR situation - that is, as long as we aren't calling in the real SAR folks. If we had a repeater(s) that would work with the units, we could handle quite a bit before we had to call in the big dogs; or lacking that could tell them to bring repeaters, we have units that could utilize them.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

Tom

[rhitchco]

Northwest PA, huh? Our team here (Rochester NY covering central to western NY) occasionally works in the northern part of PA if requested by state police or DNR. While NY state DEC and state police have big repeaters in the Adirondaks and Catskills region which we are permitted to use, we also have portable VHF repeaters and some dedicated SAR frequencies. And our SAR radios are permitted to have a bit more power, especially the mobile vehicle units. So for us, communication on VHF is almost never a problem. (The only time I can remember when our comms were messed up was in a search in the vicinity of many really high voltage transmission lines overhead. Disconcerting to hear all the buzzing and crackling overhead, pretty much the same on the radios. Got a nice suntan from 'em tho!

 

We also know a couple HAMs with some interesting equipment.

 

To make a long story shorter, if your son has a Rino type radio, and it's on, we stand an excellent chance of finding him quickly and efficiently.

[TomOfTarsus]

rhitchco:

 

I thought VHF was different from the GMRS or FRS radios in the Rinos. Am I missing something? How could you pick him up on VHF?

 

& a funny story from Northwestern PA. My wife & I were spending a weekend in Cook Forest last fall. We took a quick walk at dusk up from the river into the big trees area - just right on the side of the hill. As dusk fell she was concerned about getting lost! We were in shouting distance of a campground, literally, I could hear people and see lights! I know overconfidence can be a killer, but even if no one was around, & we were disoriented, all we had to do was go downhill and follow the stream back to the river, we weren't anywhere close to lost. Biggest danger was tripping in the gathering twilight. And she wonders why I want to get her on to this stuff... Bless her heart, she's the best wife a guy could ask for, but she could get lost turning around.

 

One of my co-workers grew up in Rochester.

 

Regards,

 

Tom

[rhitchco]

You're exactly right...FRS and GMRS are UHF based. I was more responding to the general question of reception in hilly wilderness areas and repeaters, which for most SAR teams are VHF.

 

But there are UHF handhelds easily available with far more power than the consumer FRS/GMRS radios and UHF repeaters also. They are not normally what a ground-based SAR team would use but they can be gotten very quickly and programmed to match the Rino FRS frequencies. Obviously that wouldn't show GPS locations beamed from a Rino, but might be used to establish communications with the subject and could be used for picking up a broadcasting Rino unit and direction finding.

 

Sorry for inadvertently adding to any confusion.

 

rhitchco

[TomOfTarsus]

No problem, by your clarification I learned more!

 

Now I wonder if a UHF repater on top of a hill, f'rinstance, would allow Rino-equipped parties on opposite sides to be able to "see" each other, as the unit is simply "repeating" what it hears and thus should pass along the location information.

 

Thanks,

 

Tom