General discussion about coin ownership

2.9k · November 9, 2007

I still believe that one should honor any agreements made prior to a trade.

I agree with you, except in extreme circumstances. :laughing:

1.5k · November 9, 2007

In response to WWC's post, I don't think there is a single person on here who has ever felt that you shouldn't do whatever you need if there are circumstances like illness, family emergencies, etc... That's always brought up but nobody is ever arguing that you should stay true to your word in those situations, family first. There are however lots of other reasons that people sell their coins that do not fall under this blanket. This is where the issue comes up.

I don't think this thread was started to change minds, it was started to get a general "what does ownership mean" definition.

Instead, it's turned into yet another slinging match. So, the question is, where do you stand (anyone reading this thread) on the ownership definition?

2.9k · November 9, 2007

yada yada yada...

You all have your OPINIONS and are entitled to them. So does everybody else.

You can discuss what you think, what you like and what you believe - but nobody is in a position to say that "I am right and you are wrong".

Holy Moly... I agree with FSM... that doesn't happen everyday! I'd better lie down.

Whoah...me too. How strange is that?

8.9k · November 9, 2007

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

1.5k · November 9, 2007

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

Where do non-trackables fit in? Honest question, not fighting.

2.2k · November 9, 2007

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

Do you? Or do you just own the tracking? I believe this is what some people are struggling with.

2.9k · November 9, 2007

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

Do you? Or do you just own the tracking? I believe this is what some people are struggling with.

You just own the tracking...perhaps the words that are on a web page...but you do not own the coin.

8.9k · November 10, 2007

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

Where do non-trackables fit in? Honest question, not fighting.

I couldn't tell you on those, I guess you could always get a "title" written up? :laughing: Truly, if I like your coin, you have no need to worry about me wanting to sell it (I won't even want it if I don't like it). I collect the coins because I like them, the "value" of them merely is seen as bragging rights (to me). (you and your used generally here)

If I make an agreement with you to never sell your coin, your coin will either stay with me until I die or I'll trade it back to you if I'm in times of need. That means I won't trade it away or sell it regardless unless it's back to you (you being general here). If you feel you need to retain "ownership" of it (have your name beside the owner field) to have control of it, so be it. If I agree before trading, I know what I'm getting into!

So I guess you can deduce from that that I believe the "owner" of the coin is the person who's name is beside the owner field. That's my opinion and I'm sure others will have their own. As long as we can all sleep at night, I see no problem. If everyone walks away from the deal understanding what the agreement is, they ought to be able to honor said deal!! (you is used...)

2.2k · November 10, 2007

Remember, we don't/can't read every post in every thread. PLEASE use the report button to bring issues to our attention so we can deal with them as soon as they happen.

I forgot to add this reminder (again):

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

When we do get the reports, we deal with them if they are legitimate. Just because we may not come back in here and state that something was done, rest assured that we deal with everything to ensure that we are enforcing the Groundspeak policy.

22k · November 10, 2007

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

Do you? Or do you just own the tracking? I believe this is what some people are struggling with.

You just own the tracking...perhaps the words that are on a web page...but you do not own the coin.

More than just words. You can control logging, etc, etc, etc. It's the coin holder that has to image being the owner. Just like a coin thief does. (not to imply the holder is a thief, just that both are simply in possession of the coin.)

Edited November 10, 2007 by BlueDeuce

8.9k · November 10, 2007

Now trader coins, that's a different thing altogether.

8.9k · November 10, 2007

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

Do you? Or do you just own the tracking? I believe this is what some people are struggling with.

You just own the tracking...perhaps the words that are on a web page...but you do not own the coin.

More than just words. You can control logging, etc, etc, etc. It's the coin holder that has to image being the owner. Just like a coin thief does. (not to imply the holder is a thief, just that both are simply in possession of the coin.)

Exactly BD, I can put my picture in the coin page, I can delete any logs, I can place the coin virtually anywhere I wish. You can't share that coin with anyone because it's not in your name and you'd get tired of explaining every time. I can even lock it down or put big letters saying the coin was stolen or what not.

You may hold the coin, but I hold the title! (I, you & your are used...)

Edited November 10, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

1.8k · November 10, 2007

I've been involved with several coins for organizations and events.

Each time, at some point, I looked across the table at the good folk putting up the money and said:"Be prepared to see this coin sold for more than we sell it for on ebay. You can't stop it or prevent it."

Of course, this is about coins that were designed to sell. But it is crazy-making to be struggling to pay the bill on a coin designed to raise money and to see it go for big bucks on ebay. And before the organization or the event has released it. I've always wondered how these sellers can have the brass to sell what is not in their hands yet.

It takes all kinds, I guess.

Edited to add: I'm sure people will point out that that same ebay is available to the organizations and event comittees. But the event committees I know think (silly them) that the coin ought to be available FIRST to the folks who attend. That the COIN isn't as important as the event it celebrates. Once a one of a kind (mint error, actually) was sold BEFORE. And it was sold to be timed with the event.

Edited November 10, 2007 by ATMouse

8.8k · November 10, 2007

See, here's what I don't get.

Why are people even shopping on ebay if they are going to have to pay more? Sometimes way more than the coin (or any item) is worth.

I've seen the new ebay commercials and they tout it as "winning" something. A competition. Beat the other guy! Keep bidding! Spend more. It almost sounds like they are comparing it to gambling, which can ruin lives if not done with common sense. Why let ebay do that this hobby? Sometimes, I think I will never understand people and why they do what they do.

22k · November 10, 2007

See, here's what I don't get.

Why are people even shopping on ebay if they are going to have to pay more? Sometimes way more than the coin (or any item) is worth.

I've seen the new ebay commercials and they tout it as "winning" something. A competition. Beat the other guy! Keep bidding! Spend more. It almost sounds like they are comparing it to gambling, which can ruin lives if not done with common sense. Why let ebay do that this hobby? Sometimes, I think I will never understand people and why they do what they do.

I say it nearly every week, Ebay is a seller's market.

November 10, 2007

Well . . . this is off topic . . .

But, since a moderator took it off topic in the first place, I guess that it is OK for me to weigh in

There will be eBay sales at inflated prices as long as there are coin versions made in low numbers

This pseudo-rarity makes for competition for the items artificially made rare

The commercial coin makers make one or only a few versions, and make enough that they are in stock for weeks or months

Hobbyists, collectors, traders, etc who make a small run of coins increase the demand for those coins

If you want to keep your coin off eBay (or at least reasonably priced if it gets there) -

1. make one version of your coin (or at least keep it to a few)

2. make enough of them that everybody who wants one will have a chance to get one

This fellow put it into words better than I can -

crakeproductions.com/coins/philosophy.html

1.4k · November 10, 2007

How many people besides Moun10Bike and AJAYHAWKFAN have paid in full, the whole cost of their coins...not many? I think when someone puts up that kind of investment, they should be able to do pretty much what they want to do with their coin (if they have never been sold).

It would be interesting to find out how many people have funded personal coins solely out of pocket. We have done six versions. All without any commercial assistance (unless you wan to count Uncle Sam and his occasional refunds :laughing: )

BTW, the quote is from post #59 by jeep'en jumpers

8.8k · November 10, 2007

Read the thread title, it included the words "and selling on ebay" so I didn't think it was off topic. I apologize if it was too wide a tangent.

November 10, 2007

When we had our first coin made in early 2005, we had 300 made and paid in full for the coins out of our own pocket and never sold one of them. My Son of Cyclops coin was fully paid for by myself from allowance and present money from my grandparents. I feel that if some took the time and money to produce a coin that they only traded, like we did, that the coin should not be sold. At the least, ask before you go sell someones coins. I do not like it when the coin is being sold on ebay and they make a profit while the person who put out at least $400 for his or her coins is getting squat. Bottom line, don't sell other peoples coins on ebay and if you do, at the least ask the person and if they don't want you to sell it, trade it away for other coins you can sell.

1.3k · November 10, 2007

When we had our first coin made in early 2005, we had 300 made and paid in full for the coins out of our own pocket and never sold one of them. My Son of Cyclops coin was fully paid for by myself from allowance and present money from my grandparents. I feel that if some took the time and money to produce a coin that they only traded, like we did, that the coin should not be sold. At the least, ask before you go sell someones coins. I do not like it when the coin is being sold on ebay and they make a profit while the person who put out at least $400 for his or her coins is getting squat. Bottom line, don't sell other peoples coins on ebay and if you do, at the least ask the person and if they don't want you to sell it, trade it away for other coins you can sell.

What was the purpose you made the coins in the first place? I understand you put up the money to have them made but I have a hard time understanding the rational behind it? I mean if they were trade coins then you get something in return right? If they were gift coins, there should be no strings as it's out of the goodness of your heart - or then it really isn't a gift right? If you wanted to just share them but retain ownership then only make 5 or six and take them to events to show people.

I'm not knocking anyones desire to not have their coins sold but personally I would take it as a compliment if something I made/designed was selling for bigger bucks. I also think that if we 'truly' feel these coins should never be sold then trading these coins for large sums of coins in return should be frowned upon equally as selling. Both methods turn a profit for the trader/seller just that selling on ebay is more visible. Selling may also give us new traders a better chance a getting a rare coin that we will most likely never get the chance for otherwise.

My 2 cents - and not a shot at anyone.

1.3k · November 10, 2007

See, here's what I don't get.

Why are people even shopping on ebay if they are going to have to pay more? Sometimes way more than the coin (or any item) is worth.

I've seen the new ebay commercials and they tout it as "winning" something. A competition. Beat the other guy! Keep bidding! Spend more. It almost sounds like they are comparing it to gambling, which can ruin lives if not done with common sense. Why let ebay do that this hobby? Sometimes, I think I will never understand people and why they do what they do.

I haven't traded too often yet but I think if I tried for some of the "rare" coins the cost would be just as high...in coins maybe but none the less the cost is there. Some coins seem to go for outrageous prices on ebay I will agree but I'm assuming some of the coins are very difficult to get.

If it weren't for ebay, I wouldn't be able to participate in the secret missions without embarrassing myself. I got some nice coins from trades and dealers but also from ebay for those harder to get, sold out coins. Now I'm able to enjoy some of the fun things that everyone else has been able to do in these forums.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Theotokos

November 10, 2007

When I traded people, I told them this is a rare coin and a trade only as I also had many request not to sell the coin (which I followed) which was trade to me, I want to have people show respect to my coins.

1.3k · November 10, 2007

When I traded people, I told them this is a rare coin and a trade only as I also had many request not to sell the coin (which I followed) which was trade to me, I want to have people show respect to my coins.

I guess I just don't understand why you would want to make the coins in the first place, or make so many, if you don't want to give them away in one fashion or another? Again, trading is also putting a value on the item just not a cash value but it still carries a value.

"I" feel (my opinion only) that if I'm not going to give a coin to someone free and clear then I shouldn't even bother in the first place. I think geocoins have morphed into something they maybe were never intended for. They were meant to travel but now they have become a collectible item. People need to understand and prepare themselves when they make and pay for coins that people will be looking to acquire them for their collection. Trading may not be a feasible route to go for some people and I think it's difficult to expect that collectibles will only be traded.

If geocoins were just travelers and nothing else I bet we wouldn't be discussing coins being sold on ebay.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Theotokos

November 10, 2007

What's the point of making 250 or more coins if you don't want at least part of those going to people either to travel or have in their collections? And if you traded all of them, you must have gotten trades back.

1k · November 10, 2007

"I" feel (my opinion only) that if I'm not going to give a coin to someone free and clear then I shouldn't even bother in the first place. I think geocoins have morphed into something they maybe were never intended for. They were meant to travel but now they have become a collectible item. People need to understand and prepare themselves when they make and pay for coins that people will be looking to acquire them for their collection. Trading may not be a feasible route to go for some people and I think it's difficult to expect that collectibles will only be traded.

If geocoins were just travelers and nothing else I bet we wouldn't be discussing coins being sold on ebay.

One question that I have noticed being asked many times is: What is the purpose of geocoins?

Geocaching as a sport is really only a few years old, and geocoins have been around an even shorter amount of time. But in those few years the number of geocachers, caches, and coins has multiplied exponentially. All of these new people bring new ideas, and geocaching and geocoins have changed and evolved over time to keep up with these new ideas that people have come up with. With anything, there will always be someone to be the first, the groundbreakers. These people have no model to follow, and must make up their own rules.

Moun10bike made the first trackable coin, and because he was the first, he had an idea that geocoins should travel in caches, and be given as gifts to friends, and they were never something that he intended to use to make a profit for himself or for anyone else. The cachers that created coins shortly after him used his coins and ideas as an example.

As more and more people started creating coins, trading and collecting began. Eventually coin companies started producing coins for sale to the community. Now in addition to coins being placed in caches and gifted, it is also common practice that they are sold, traveled, kept in collections, stolen, etc...

Over time geocoins have changed, and coins have a different meaning to different people. Some people stay true to Moun10bikes original vision of geocoins, but there are others who believe that it is outdated now that coins have changed so much since they were released. I don't think anyone is right or wrong about the purpose of coins, everyone in entitled to their own opinion and are free to collect coins as they wish.

Those people that don't think coins should be sold, don't buy them. Producing a trade only coin in today's coin market is fine, because there are still people who are interested in trade only coins, and most people will respect the wishes of the maker that the coins not be sold. But we do live in an ebay world, and there really is no way to control the coins once they have been traded away to someone else. If someone decides they want to sell a trade only coin, or any coins, as long as they are holding the coin, they can sell it, and someone will be there to buy it.

In a perfect world, the coin maker can dictate how he or she wants their coins to be used, but really, once they are sold or traded away, they have very little control over what happens to the coins. They can request that a certain coin not be sold, and many people will honor such a request, but it is unreasonable to think that every single person will follow that coin makers "rules" about that particular coin, or even that everyone will be made aware of the owner's original intent when purchasing or trading for a coin from someone other than the original maker of the coin.

1.1k · November 10, 2007

So what could Eartha distil from all of this prior to the last page and stick here "Do's & Don't Guide To Geocoins & FAQs!" ?

3k · November 10, 2007

Do you want my opinion?

If you traded a coin for a coin with someone, then you own that coin, because you paid fair value for it. Regardless of who's account it is listed under.

That is my opinion.

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

Do you? Or do you just own the tracking? I believe this is what some people are struggling with.

I'm completely stunned! I had to read the last couple pages three times to make sure I was hearing what I thought I was hearing.

First, I'm absolutely staggered that two moderators are taking a position against or circumventing clearly stated policy of Groundspeak. FSM is asking a question and that I can understand when playing Devil's Advocate so I can get past and even enjoy the irony. Eartha, however, you have completely floored me with your statement. Groundspeak clearly defines ownership through account registration which brings me to my second point. I think it's incredibly irresponsible to state personal opinion with your MODERATOR account status. Your job is not to sway our opinions with yours, but to guide a reasonable and civil conversation as I understand it. These forums exist for members to discuss and debate in an open manner. We all have an opinion, but you have an opinion that should be superceded by your responsibility as mod. Do I want your opinion? Absolutely. Do I want your opinion as a Mod? Not a chance, it doesn't belong here. :rolleyes:

2.9k · November 10, 2007

Do you want my opinion?

If you traded a coin for a coin with someone, then you own that coin, because you paid fair value for it. Regardless of who's account it is listed under.

That is my opinion.

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

Do you? Or do you just own the tracking? I believe this is what some people are struggling with.

I'm completely stunned! I had to read the last couple pages three times to make sure I was hearing what I thought I was hearing.

First, I'm absolutely staggered that two moderators are taking a position against or circumventing clearly stated policy of Groundspeak. FSM is asking a question and that I can understand when playing Devil's Advocate so I can get past and even enjoy the irony. Eartha, however, you have completely floored me with your statement. Groundspeak clearly defines ownership through account registration which brings me to my second point. I think it's incredibly irresponsible to state personal opinion with your MODERATOR account status. Your job is not to sway our opinions with yours, but to guide a reasonable and civil conversation as I understand it. These forums exist for members to discuss and debate in an open manner. We all have an opinion, but you have an opinion that should be superceded by your responsibility as mod. Do I want your opinion? Absolutely. Do I want your opinion as a Mod? Not a chance, it doesn't belong here.

The Mods aren't human, now? :rolleyes: These people are just like you and me, save for the keen title below their names. As such, they can have opinions, too...even express them.

As for me, I found it refreshing that they did NOT have to toe the party line (whatever that may be) in regards to this subject.

Groundspeak says you own the *registration* of the coin, but not the coin itself. Is that fact so hard to understand? Say you have coin "XY" and you activated it. While it's still in your possession you do, in fact, own both the registration and the coin. Now...imagine you trade off said coin but retain that cute little web page. You still own the *registration* but you do NOT own the coin anymore.

How can you own something you traded away fairly?

Once you give something away in a legit agreement, it's gone. You don't own it anymore.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Arthur & Trillian

3k · November 10, 2007

Do you want my opinion?

If you traded a coin for a coin with someone, then you own that coin, because you paid fair value for it. Regardless of who's account it is listed under.

That is my opinion.

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

Do you? Or do you just own the tracking? I believe this is what some people are struggling with.

I'm completely stunned! I had to read the last couple pages three times to make sure I was hearing what I thought I was hearing.

First, I'm absolutely staggered that two moderators are taking a position against or circumventing clearly stated policy of Groundspeak. FSM is asking a question and that I can understand when playing Devil's Advocate so I can get past and even enjoy the irony. Eartha, however, you have completely floored me with your statement. Groundspeak clearly defines ownership through account registration which brings me to my second point. I think it's incredibly irresponsible to state personal opinion with your MODERATOR account status. Your job is not to sway our opinions with yours, but to guide a reasonable and civil conversation as I understand it. These forums exist for members to discuss and debate in an open manner. We all have an opinion, but you have an opinion that should be superceded by your responsibility as mod. Do I want your opinion? Absolutely. Do I want your opinion as a Mod? Not a chance, it doesn't belong here.

The Mods aren't human, now? These people are just like you and me, save for the keen title below their names. As such, they can have opinions, too...even express them.

As for me, I found it refreshing that they did NOT have to toe the party line (whatever that may be) in regards to this subject.

Groundspeak says you own the *registration* of the coin, but not the coin itself. Is that fact so hard to understand? Say you have coin "XY" and you activated it. While it's still in your possession you do, in fact, own both the registration and the coin. Now...imagine you trade off said coin but retain that cute little web page. You still own the *registration* but you do NOT own the coin anymore.

How can you own something you traded away fairly?

Once you give something away in a legit agreement, it's gone. You don't own it anymore.

They're completely human, have opinions and I want to hear them. I don't, however, wish to hear opinions attached to the moderator accounts. They have regular accounts for stating opinion. Usually, that's how I've seen them operate. It's fair to them and to us and a good solution.

Groundspeak does NOT say "you own the *registration* of the coin, but not the coin itself" and quite specifically list's the registration holder as OWNER. Not user, not moderator, not partial owner, first activator or any other title. It says Owner. I can a trade ownership of a coin through sale, barter, etc. I can loan my coin to friends. I could even lease it out if someone were silly enough to pay me. Unless it's attained "legitmately" (good word by the way and I'm glad you threw into the mix!) it doesn't belong to the holder. If I trade something away fairly, or legitimately (we'll assume we're talking about actual ownership and not simple possession) then fair is fair. If I have any item that is owned and registered by me and loan it out, it doesn't matter who has it at the moment, it can't be given away or sold.

You can borrow my car. You might be crazy enough to loan it to someone else at some point, but I guarantee you if you ever try to sell it, you're going to do some jail time.

I understand your point and it all relies on a legitimate trade. My point is that you can't "own" something that was never given to you legitimately no matter how it is aquired. Ownership includes the registration. If it doesn't, then we have no right to be upset when our coins are stolen either. When Groundspeak changes the title of the registered "Owner" to something else, then I'll concede. It will quite likely be the last day I ever activate a coin to travel, too.

8.8k · November 10, 2007

When I traded people, I told them this is a rare coin and a trade only as I also had many request not to sell the coin (which I followed) which was trade to me, I want to have people show respect to my coins.

I guess I just don't understand why you would want to make the coins in the first place, or make so many, if you don't want to give them away in one fashion or another? Again, trading is also putting a value on the item just not a cash value but it still carries a value.

Perhaps he did it for the love of the game and to share with the community. I remember when Son Of Cyclops came out with his coin. He was very excited to be able to participate in trading with others, and sharing their coins. It wasn't about money for him. It was something personal. Some do it for personal reasons, others are in it for profit. We're all created equally, but we aren't all created the same.

November 10, 2007

If you're doing it for the love of the game I think that's great. So what's all the flak about then? Does a person selling one of these coins really ruin the originators love of the game?

2.9k · November 10, 2007

They're completely human, have opinions and I want to hear them. I don't, however, wish to hear opinions attached to the moderator accounts. They have regular accounts for stating opinion. Usually, that's how I've seen them operate. It's fair to them and to us and a good solution.

What's the difference if they gave their opinion under their sock or their mod account? The opinion is still the same.

Groundspeak does NOT say "you own the *registration* of the coin, but not the coin itself" and quite specifically list's the registration holder as OWNER. Not user, not moderator, not partial owner, first activator or any other title. It says Owner.

Hmmm...it says you are the "owner" according to the website, not real life. Look it it this way...purely hypothetical, of course...if you had a coin I gave you that the website said I owned and you destroyed it, what could I do? Nothing. You were the actual current owner of the coin. How can you "own" something that someone else has possession of, and got it in a respectful way? Yes, yes...the listing you own and you can do what you will with it...but that coin is no longer yours.

I can a trade ownership of a coin through sale, barter, etc. I can loan my coin to friends. I could even lease it out if someone were silly enough to pay me. Unless it's attained "legitmately" (good word by the way and I'm glad you threw into the mix!) it doesn't belong to the holder. If I trade something away fairly, or legitimately (we'll assume we're talking about actual ownership and not simple possession) then fair is fair. If I have any item that is owned and registered by me and loan it out, it doesn't matter who has it at the moment, it can't be given away or sold.

What control do you really have over that coin that someone else is holding and is the current owner? Change the listing? Sure. Lock the tracking? Yep. Does that really matter in the long run to the person that wanted the coin badly? No. What they wanted...the coin...is theirs and with them. They own it and are happy with it.

How can you stop someone from selling it or giving it away? You can't. How can you say you own something you can't even control?

You can borrow my car. You might be crazy enough to loan it to someone else at some point, but I guarantee you if you ever try to sell it, you're going to do some jail time.

Well, yeah...but that example is hardly the same as a coin you gave away and lost ownership of.

I understand your point and it all relies on a legitimate trade. My point is that you can't "own" something that was never given to you legitimately no matter how it is aquired. Ownership includes the registration. If it doesn't, then we have no right to be upset when our coins are stolen either. When Groundspeak changes the title of the registered "Owner" to something else, then I'll concede. It will quite likely be the last day I ever activate a coin to travel, too.

If acquired in a legit manner, ownership is the possession of the object you traded for. Simple. Registration means squat. Sure, it may mean something if you like looking at pretty web pages, but in the real world, he who holds the coin owns the coin.

Groundspeak can say what they want, but in the real world, the Moun10Bike's and the AJAYHAWKFAN's of the world can parade up and down the streets pounding their chests saying they own every coin of theirs out there when in reality, they own only the coins they possess and a few web pages of registrations.

2.9k · November 10, 2007

If you're doing it for the love of the game I think that's great. So what's all the flak about then? Does a person selling one of these coins really ruin the originators love of the game?

I hardly could see how. If something like that does...well, there are greater problems afoot than just coins.

3k · November 10, 2007

What's the difference if they gave their opinion under their sock or their mod account? The opinion is still the same.

The difference is that they are speaking from a position of authority and their job is monitor, not sway public opinion.

Hmmm...it says you are the "owner" according to the website, not real life. Look it it this way...purely hypothetical, of course...if you had a coin I gave you that the website said I owned and you destroyed it, what could I do? Nothing. You were the actual current owner of the coin. How can you "own" something that someone else has possession of, and got it in a respectful way? Yes, yes...the listing you own and you can do what you will with it...but that coin is no longer yours.

Sure, I can destroy your personal property, but that doesn't ever mean it belonged to me.

What control do you really have over that coin that someone else is holding and is the current owner? Change the listing? Sure. Lock the tracking? Yep. Does that really matter in the long run to the person that wanted the coin badly? No. What they wanted...the coin...is theirs and with them. They own it and are happy with it.

How can you stop someone from selling it or giving it away? You can't. How can you say you own something you can't even control?

Why do you keep equating possession to ownership? Don't give me the 9/10th rant either (it's a shallow loophole riddle with vagueness anyway and will be argued till the end of time). Give me a legitimate reason please. I can't control what you do with my ____________(insert any physical object here) if you borrow it, but that doesn't mean you "own" it. Now if I trade complete ownership of an object to you in a legitimate transaction (even verbal) then of course you can do what you want to it. You still have to "own" it though and not simply be possessing it at the moment.

If acquired in a legit manner, ownership is the possession of the object you traded for. Simple. Registration means squat. Sure, it may mean something if you like looking at pretty web pages, but in the real world, he who holds the coin owns the coin.

Groundspeak can say what they want, but in the real world, the Moun10Bike's and the AJAYHAWKFAN's of the world can parade up and down the streets pounding their chests saying they own every coin of theirs out there when in reality, they own only the coins they possess and a few web pages of registrations.

:rolleyes: Did you even read what I wrote? I said if it's aquired legitimately then you own it. I also said legitimate ownership included registration. The registration shows ownership. That's it's function. In the real world, the web means squat, not the ownership. Groundspeak could go bellyup and offline forever in the next five minutes, but it doesn't mean every coin and bug I own automatically is "owned" by whoever happens to be holding it at the time. Regardless of whether it's a coin or any other legitimately aquired item in this world, possession doesn't equal ownership.

Otherwise you could simply borrow anything at anytime and claim you own it. It's a ludicrous view to me in light of the fact that you can show proof of ownership.

I have to head out, but I'll check back this evening. See y'all in a bit

Edited November 10, 2007 by fox-and-the-hound

8.9k · November 10, 2007

Do you want my opinion?

If you traded a coin for a coin with someone, then you own that coin, because you paid fair value for it. Regardless of who's account it is listed under.

That is my opinion.

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

Do you? Or do you just own the tracking? I believe this is what some people are struggling with.

I'm completely stunned! I had to read the last couple pages three times to make sure I was hearing what I thought I was hearing.

First, I'm absolutely staggered that two moderators are taking a position against or circumventing clearly stated policy of Groundspeak. FSM is asking a question and that I can understand when playing Devil's Advocate so I can get past and even enjoy the irony. Eartha, however, you have completely floored me with your statement. Groundspeak clearly defines ownership through account registration which brings me to my second point. I think it's incredibly irresponsible to state personal opinion with your MODERATOR account status. Your job is not to sway our opinions with yours, but to guide a reasonable and civil conversation as I understand it. These forums exist for members to discuss and debate in an open manner. We all have an opinion, but you have an opinion that should be superceded by your responsibility as mod. Do I want your opinion? Absolutely. Do I want your opinion as a Mod? Not a chance, it doesn't belong here.

The Mods aren't human, now? These people are just like you and me, save for the keen title below their names. As such, they can have opinions, too...even express them.

As for me, I found it refreshing that they did NOT have to toe the party line (whatever that may be) in regards to this subject.

Groundspeak says you own the *registration* of the coin, but not the coin itself. Is that fact so hard to understand? Say you have coin "XY" and you activated it. While it's still in your possession you do, in fact, own both the registration and the coin. Now...imagine you trade off said coin but retain that cute little web page. You still own the *registration* but you do NOT own the coin anymore.

How can you own something you traded away fairly?

Once you give something away in a legit agreement, it's gone. You don't own it anymore.

With this rationale, if I release my coin (which I own), the first person to pick it up can claim it as theirs? NO, Even after it leaves my hands, I own it unless I sign away (send out adoption papers). That would also be the reason for the adoption in the first place, because I own it until I sign away.

November 10, 2007

See, here's what I don't get.

Why are people even shopping on ebay if they are going to have to pay more? Sometimes way more than the coin (or any item) is worth.

I've seen the new ebay commercials and they tout it as "winning" something. A competition. Beat the other guy! Keep bidding! Spend more. It almost sounds like they are comparing it to gambling, which can ruin lives if not done with common sense. Why let ebay do that this hobby? Sometimes, I think I will never understand people and why they do what they do.

I haven't traded too often yet but I think if I tried for some of the "rare" coins the cost would be just as high...in coins maybe but none the less the cost is there. Some coins seem to go for outrageous prices on ebay I will agree but I'm assuming some of the coins are very difficult to get.

If it weren't for ebay, I wouldn't be able to participate in the secret missions without embarrassing myself. I got some nice coins from trades and dealers but also from ebay for those harder to get, sold out coins. Now I'm able to enjoy some of the fun things that everyone else has been able to do in these forums.

This is true. And you also have to keep in mind that there are a lot of people from this very forum who sell coins on eBay. It's a way for people to acquire coins that they might not otherwise have access to. There are new cachers born everyday and they want to be able to be a part of the community also.

8.9k · November 10, 2007

As said before, this all comes down to ethics. If I SAY I'm understanding the trade agreement and then do the opposite, I lied, plain and simple.

November 10, 2007

If your name is beside the OWNER field on the coin page, you are the owner. If not, you are the honored holder of a coin which someone else owns! MHO

Do you? Or do you just own the tracking? I believe this is what some people are struggling with.

You just own the tracking...perhaps the words that are on a web page...but you do not own the coin.

More than just words. You can control logging, etc, etc, etc. It's the coin holder that has to image being the owner. Just like a coin thief does. (not to imply the holder is a thief, just that both are simply in possession of the coin.)

Exactly BD, I can put my picture in the coin page, I can delete any logs, I can place the coin virtually anywhere I wish. You can't share that coin with anyone because it's not in your name and you'd get tired of explaining every time. I can even lock it down or put big letters saying the coin was stolen or what not.

You may hold the coin, but I hold the title! (I, you & your are used...)

Yes, ethics are important. I agree if a trade agreement that is clear and fully understood has been made, it should be honored.

8.8k · November 10, 2007

Don't be so stunned. It's not that shocking. That's probably the first time I ever voiced any opinion about coins, and what I perhaps should have said, what I wanted to mean, was that if I trade a coin for a coin, if I make a fair value trade, then I would want the ownership. I wouldn't make a trade that had restrictions. But I don't trade, so I don't know what I'd do with the coins in the long run. I had just read this thread and when I wrote that, and I was thinking and writing really fast. Sorry if you don't want my opinion. It won't happen again, you can rest assured. It's just nearly impossible to have any control over things you let go of. I hope I didn't ruin your day.

8.9k · November 10, 2007

I agree Eartha. For a coin, if someone "steals" it after agreeing to terms of trade or whatever, no cop will take up the case, you are on your own!

However, word travels fast around these forums. I'm sure that if someone acted unethically with a trade, others would think twice about trading with that person (not all, but those who respect the whole "trade without sales" concept). Others who might not care so much about the concept might still see the person as unethical as well.

If you have my coin in your possession with my name on it, you can expect to have questions (I know) asked why someone else "owns" your coin. If you then sell that coin, I could easily make that coin less desireable by putting nice big red letters in the description saying said coin was stolen! If you buy or trade for coins to own the icon, you won't, if you wanted to share that coin, you can't (if I decide to lock it).

It may be yours (possession wise), but it'll still raise eyebrows and get some rumors flying (in the right crowds).

November 10, 2007

I enjoyed your opinion and think you have every right to express it.

November 10, 2007

No one will ever convince me that any geocoin in the world is worth ruining someones reputation and causing them embarassment over, agreement or no agreement.

2.9k · November 10, 2007

No one will ever convince me that any geocoin in the world is worth ruining someones reputation and causing them embarassment over, agreement or no agreement.

Agreed. It seems that too many people here hold geocoins to a higher status than they should be.

8.9k · November 10, 2007

The person who doesn't uphold an agreement they made willingly would be the one ruining their own reputation...and I agree, no coin is worth ruining your reputation over. Stand by your agreement!

No one is holding the coin to a higher standard.

2.9k · November 10, 2007

No one is holding the coin to a higher standard.

Yes they are. They are acting like their coin is somehow special and can't be owned by the person holding it. How they can rationalize in their mind that they own it without possessing it is another discussion altogether....

It's hogwash. You have the coin you got in a legit trade? You own it..no if's, and's or but's.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Arthur & Trillian

8.9k · November 10, 2007

A&T...IF you agree to a trade with the stipulation that it never be sold, you are creating a "contract" between yourself and the person you're negotiating with...period! If you later decide not to honor that agreement, SHAME on you. (you a generalization here)

If you don't like this kind of deal, don't enter into one...simple!

ETA: I understand what you're saying, but really, it doesn't matter. If you want the coin and agree to the terms, you should honor the terms! For whatever reason others feel their coin is "special", it's all still an agreement between two parties!

Edited November 10, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

2.9k · November 10, 2007

Well, I think the whole "agreement" thing is terribly one-sided and dumb, but hey...in my opinion, no one's coin is any more special than another person's.

However the discussion still refers to ownership, and I still maintain that it is silly to give or trade someone your coin and claim you still own it.

November 10, 2007

The only behavior that I can control is my own, so . . .

I hereby promise to do these things -

1. if I transfer possession of a geocoin from me to you, via any means (sale, trade, gift, barter, etc),

the geocoin will be one of the following -

A. non-trackable

B. trackable, but un-activated

C. trackable, activated, owned by me, ownership transferred to you at the conclusion of the transaction

2. I will strive to avoid taking possession of any geocoin that is not in one of the three states listed under #1 above

3. if I happen to be holding a geocoin (or other trackable item) that is not owned by me, I will place it in a cache within a reasonable amount of time, in order that it may travel - exceptions made for those items that have the express written permission of the owner to do otherwise

Edited November 11, 2007 by Bhob

8.9k · November 10, 2007

Is it safe to say you'd never enter into one of these agreements? A&T I mean.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

3.1k · November 10, 2007

Without digging through all 5 pages, can I get some clarification??

Most if this conversation revolves aroung three particular coins, right?

In addition the discussion about these said three coins revolves around who "owns" the coin once they are traded to you if the creator had activated this coin prior to trading,right?

So if I had in my possession any of these three coins and they are not activated when they are traded to me, am I then the sole owner?

If I traded for one of these coins and it was unactivated when I received it, then the creator changed how he dealt with the activation of the coin is it right for them to activate it after the fact?

General discussion about coin ownership

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