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General discussion about coin ownership

Flying Spaghetti Monster

By Flying Spaghetti Monster
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Eartha

+Eartha

Posted
Posted

Without digging through all 5 pages, can I get some clarification??

 

Most if this conversation revolves aroung three particular coins, right?

 

In addition the discussion about these said three coins revolves around who "owns" the coin once they are traded to you if the creator had activated this coin prior to trading,right?

 

So if I had in my possession any of these three coins and they are not activated when they are traded to me, am I then the sole owner?

 

If I traded for one of these coins and it was unactivated when I received it, then the creator changed how he dealt with the activation of the coin is it right for them to activate it after the fact?

 

No, this is a general discussion about the "ownership" of any geocoin, and what happens to geocoins after they have been given/sold/traded/found to/by another person, and the agreements made between people when that transaction has been made. It is not about any one or three coins in particular.

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ArtieD

+ArtieD

Posted
Posted

Is it safe to say you'd never enter into one of these agreements? A&T I mean.

 

Never. Any coin that I buy or trade for is mine 100% and any agreement that would try to alter that arrangement is a coin I do not want at all. I care less how collectible such coins can be, strings-attached coins are not worth my time.

 

Mystery coins, I believe, are owned by the finders and are special cases. In those cases, the wishes of the mystery coin person are to be respected because they gave freely of their coins.

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TheNumber1Bop

TheNumber1Bop

Posted
Posted

Is it safe to say you'd never enter into one of these agreements? A&T I mean.

 

Never. Any coin that I buy or trade for is mine 100% and any agreement that would try to alter that arrangement is a coin I do not want at all. I care less how collectible such coins can be, strings-attached coins are not worth my time.

 

Mystery coins, I believe, are owned by the finders and are special cases. In those cases, the wishes of the mystery coin person are to be respected because they gave freely of their coins.

 

I agree 100% about the mystery coins And I also would never trade for a stringer.

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avroair

avroair

Posted
Posted

Mystery coins, I believe, are owned by the finders and are special cases. In those cases, the wishes of the mystery coin person are to be respected because they gave freely of their coins.

 

It doesn't have to be a mystery coin to be given freely, is this special case then extended to those coins too?

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Rockin Roddy

+Rockin Roddy

Posted
Posted

Is it safe to say you'd never enter into one of these agreements? A&T I mean.

 

Never. Any coin that I buy or trade for is mine 100% and any agreement that would try to alter that arrangement is a coin I do not want at all. I care less how collectible such coins can be, strings-attached coins are not worth my time.

 

Mystery coins, I believe, are owned by the finders and are special cases. In those cases, the wishes of the mystery coin person are to be respected because they gave freely of their coins.

 

What makes the mystery coins any different than say....a coin that someone made ONLY to be gifted? How about one that is made to ONLY to be traded for another personal? When I entered my agreement, I was told that I could always send the coin back for mine if I didn't want to keep the agreement.

 

Since I'm not after the coin to make a buck off it, I'm not worried about going back on any deal...it'll stay right where I wanted it in the first place! (Unless some crooked &%$ comes along and steals it out of your Jeep of course)

 

BTW...sometimes, the deal can be mutually "changed"! :rolleyes:;):o

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team moon unit

team moon unit

Posted
Posted

Yet another opinion; Since we only collect a certain"theme" of coins,If I buy it without a condition,then it's mine.(ala the e place). If I buy a coin from a person,who said gee...don't go selling it,I would have to decide if I wanted it bad enough to abide by their wishes.I have traded with a few collectors on this forum,and some included their personal coin,that wasn't part of the trade.I would never sell them because they thought enough of me to want me to have it.I received a Great Pumpkin mystery coin,Im sure I could get a pretty penny for it..but again,someone thought enough of me to send it.Guess I'm a old sentimental fool, but we all have to look in the mirror sometime.

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ArtieD

+ArtieD

Posted
Posted
It doesn't have to be a mystery coin to be given freely, is this special case then extended to those coins too?

 

No.

 

Mystery coins are done by those who wish not to be in the limelight and to do something special for the community.

 

Other coins are done by people who are known and if they put such stipulations on their coins it is to feed their ego more than anything.

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TheNumber1Bop

TheNumber1Bop

Posted
Posted

Yet another opinion; Since we only collect a certain"theme" of coins,If I buy it without a condition,then it's mine.(ala the e place). If I buy a coin from a person,who said gee...don't go selling it,I would have to decide if I wanted it bad enough to abide by their wishes.I have traded with a few collectors on this forum,and some included their personal coin,that wasn't part of the trade.I would never sell them because they thought enough of me to want me to have it.I received a Great Pumpkin mystery coin,Im sure I could get a pretty penny for it..but again,someone thought enough of me to send it.Guess I'm a old sentimental fool, but we all have to look in the mirror sometime.

 

I agree. The ones that people have been thoughtful and given to me mean a lot to me and I wouldn't part with them.

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Rockin Roddy

+Rockin Roddy

Posted
Posted
It doesn't have to be a mystery coin to be given freely, is this special case then extended to those coins too?

 

No.

 

Mystery coins are done by those who wish not to be in the limelight and to do something special for the community.

 

Other coins are done by people who are known and if they put such stipulations on their coins it is to feed their ego more than anything.

 

Your opinion! Maybe they'd rather not see someone get fleeced royally on ebay for a coin which should never find it's way there in the first place.

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ArtieD

+ArtieD

Posted
Posted
It doesn't have to be a mystery coin to be given freely, is this special case then extended to those coins too?

 

No.

 

Mystery coins are done by those who wish not to be in the limelight and to do something special for the community.

 

Other coins are done by people who are known and if they put such stipulations on their coins it is to feed their ego more than anything.

 

Your opinion! Maybe they'd rather not see someone get fleeced royally on ebay for a coin which should never find it's way there in the first place.

 

Perhaps, but when the vast majority of coins do make it to eBay it's pretty much like spitting in the wind.

 

Pointless.

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ArtieD

+ArtieD

Posted
Posted

Sometimes the strings are put in place so certain less than ethical people won't get a chance to put a coin on ebay. Some things are beyond your knowledge (not saying anything bad about anyone).

 

Why worry about it in the first place? Frankly, if I put out a coin and it ended up on eBay and sold for quite a bit, I'd be honored.

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TheNumber1Bop

TheNumber1Bop

Posted
Posted
It doesn't have to be a mystery coin to be given freely, is this special case then extended to those coins too?

 

No.

 

Mystery coins are done by those who wish not to be in the limelight and to do something special for the community.

 

Other coins are done by people who are known and if they put such stipulations on their coins it is to feed their ego more than anything.

 

Your opinion! Maybe they'd rather not see someone get fleeced royally on ebay for a coin which should never find it's way there in the first place.

No one's forcing anyone to overpay for a coin on eBay. Bidders will pay what the coin is worth to THEM.

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Rockin Roddy

+Rockin Roddy

Posted
Posted

Sometimes the strings are put in place so certain less than ethical people won't get a chance to put a coin on ebay. Some things are beyond your knowledge (not saying anything bad about anyone).

 

Why worry about it in the first place? Frankly, if I put out a coin and it ended up on eBay and sold for quite a bit, I'd be honored.

 

Right...feeding your....

 

Some people don't feel the need (nor want) their ego fed in this fashion (JMHO)

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TheNumber1Bop

TheNumber1Bop

Posted
Posted

Sometimes the strings are put in place so certain less than ethical people won't get a chance to put a coin on ebay. Some things are beyond your knowledge (not saying anything bad about anyone).

 

Why worry about it in the first place? Frankly, if I put out a coin and it ended up on eBay and sold for quite a bit, I'd be honored.

 

Me too..and like I said..if it helped someone through a rough spot, I'd be proud of that.

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Rockin Roddy

+Rockin Roddy

Posted
Posted
It doesn't have to be a mystery coin to be given freely, is this special case then extended to those coins too?

 

No.

 

Mystery coins are done by those who wish not to be in the limelight and to do something special for the community.

 

Other coins are done by people who are known and if they put such stipulations on their coins it is to feed their ego more than anything.

 

Your opinion! Maybe they'd rather not see someone get fleeced royally on ebay for a coin which should never find it's way there in the first place.

No one's forcing anyone to overpay for a coin on eBay. Bidders will pay what the coin is worth to THEM.

 

Has it ever occurred to you that some people would rather not see their coins sold at all? That would be the reason they make the stipulations which are in place to keep the coins off ebay (or sold at all for that matter). They don't want someone to profit off their idea (sorta like the writer's strike going on right now...sorta).

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Rockin Roddy

+Rockin Roddy

Posted
Posted (edited)

Sometimes the strings are put in place so certain less than ethical people won't get a chance to put a coin on ebay. Some things are beyond your knowledge (not saying anything bad about anyone).

 

Why worry about it in the first place? Frankly, if I put out a coin and it ended up on eBay and sold for quite a bit, I'd be honored.

 

Me too..and like I said..if it helped someone through a rough spot, I'd be proud of that.

 

I believe rare emergency situations were covered.

 

I think I've also seen charity auctions put on before....that brought in very nice money for the intended. Those auctions usually being started by the "originator" of the coin (could have said owner, but might have ben confusing).

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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TheNumber1Bop

TheNumber1Bop

Posted
Posted
It doesn't have to be a mystery coin to be given freely, is this special case then extended to those coins too?

 

No.

 

Mystery coins are done by those who wish not to be in the limelight and to do something special for the community.

 

Other coins are done by people who are known and if they put such stipulations on their coins it is to feed their ego more than anything.

 

Your opinion! Maybe they'd rather not see someone get fleeced royally on ebay for a coin which should never find it's way there in the first place.

No one's forcing anyone to overpay for a coin on eBay. Bidders will pay what the coin is worth to THEM.

 

Has it ever occurred to you that some people would rather not see their coins sold at all? That would be the reason they make the stipulations which are in place to keep the coins off ebay (or sold at all for that matter). They don't want someone to profit off their idea (sorta like the writer's strike going on right now...sorta).

 

Whenever you put an idea or thought out in public you run the risk of someone making a profit from it. That's just the way it is. But funny enough, I see a lot of the people complaining about their coins being sold on eBay selling other peoples coins there. Whether the coins were originally sold or gifted..it's still making a profit off someone elses work. If I were that stressed about it..I'd rethink making coins. It's not worth it then.

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Theotokos

Theotokos

Posted
Posted (edited)

I would like to put forth a scenario to help me understand the process of "do not sell" coins.

 

Say I trade Son of Cyclops for his rare coin and give him 4 of mine. Now I agree to the "no sell" deal and will honour it. A year later I trade Sons coin for a world famous Red Ninja's coin - trade, not sell which I understand is still an okay option. The new 'owner' then turns around and sells the Son of Cyclops coin on ebay.

 

Now, is that okay for the new owner to do? If so why is that any different than me selling the coin (which in reality I did anyway by trading it). I understand about the agreement part but it appears the selling of ones coins are the issue here. So is it a concern no matter who sells it? Was it within my rights to trade that coin to the other collector in the first place? If I no longer wanted the Son of Cyclops coin in a year from now am I entitled to get my coins back from Cylcops - I mean since it was only a loaner coin anyway right?

 

I'm not trying to make light of this issue and of course there are many scenarios that come to mind that make this a confusing issue. I'm only trying to understand the difficulties of making stipulations on your coins.

 

Also one other note...while I'm a hoarder and would probably never sell a coin, I do take offense to people that sell coins being called 'less than ethical'. The owner needs to take some responsibility for the confusions that come about due to stipulations and to assume that everyone is aware of those stipulations is a major mistake and should not be held against the seller without clear understanding of the situation.

Edited by Theotokos
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Rockin Roddy

+Rockin Roddy

Posted
Posted (edited)

I would like to put forth a scenario to help me understand the process of "do not sell" coins.

 

Say I trade Son of Cyclops for his rare coin and give him 4 of mine. Now I agree to the "no sell" deal and will honour it. A year later I trade Sons coin for a world famous Red Ninja's coin - trade, not sell which I understand is still an okay option. The new 'owner' then turns around and sells the Son of Cyclops coin on ebay.

 

Now, is that okay for the new owner to do? If so why is that any different than me selling the coin (which in reality I did anyway by trading it). I understand about the agreement part but it appears the selling of ones coins are the issue here. So is it a concern no matter who sells it? Was it within my rights to trade that coin to the other collector in the first place? If I no longer wanted the Son of Cyclops coin in a year from now am I entitled to get my coins back from Cylcops - I mean since it was only a loaner coin anyway right?

 

I'm not trying to make light of this issue and of course there are many scenarios that come to mind that make this a confusing issue. I'm only trying to understand the difficulties of making stipulations on your coins.

 

Also one other note...while I'm a hoarder and would probably never sell a coin, I do take offense to people that sell coins being called 'less than ethical'. The owner needs to take some responsibility for the confusions that come about due to stipulations and to assume that everyone is aware of those stipulations is a major mistake and should not be held against the seller without clear understanding of the situation.

 

If you've never sold a "no sale" coin, that post wasn't aimed at you and you have no need to be offended, but sorry if I led you to misunderstand. That comment was aimed at someone who would first make an agreement and then purposely not honor it (which, by my standards is less than ethical, could be different for others though and is simply MHO).

 

I wouldn't even trade the coins I'm thinking of, so I don't know how that would work. I'd hope you'd trade back to the original owner before just passing on their coin though (MHO) And yes, I'd ask to trade the coin back before doing ANYTHING else with it (unless possibly setting it loose)

 

Why should there be ANY confusion at all for the owner to take responsibility for? If you both stand there and come to an agreement, there should never be any confusion...period!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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Theotokos

Theotokos

Posted
Posted

 

Why should there be ANY confusion at all for the owner to take responsibility for? If you both stand there and come to an agreement, there should never be any confusion...period!

 

What I mean by that is if you put stipulations on a coin it is inevitable that someone down the road will end up with a coin of yours and not understand that a 'no-sell' clause exists. So the owner needs to take responsibility for any confusion that may exist as the seller could have no idea - potentially. I guess I'm just strongly opposed to conditions on coins? I just feel that I'm not being trusted if an owner has to put stipulations on a coin we trade or gift. Maybe he has to do that but then he also needs to take responsibility for trading it too 'less than ethical' people. If he trades it to only ethical people then I see no issues and no stipulations needed - right? That is what I meant be the owner taking some responsibility.

 

I find myself in a strange situation and not sure why I feel compelled to defend the position I do :rolleyes: I would never trade a coin that was not meant to be traded. I think people that make mystery coins and those that have rare, beautiful coins are the most amazing, giving people. I guess as a hopeful owner of a rare coin someday, I just feel like I'm already untrustworthy because a stipulation has been made for me to make sure I can live up to it.

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ArtieD

+ArtieD

Posted
Posted (edited)

Is it just me, or is there an inordinate number of posts from a sockpuppet in this thread? ;)

 

I don't think it's just you :rolleyes:

 

Hmmm...are we talking about TheNumber1Bop?

 

Rest assured, folks, that this person isn't a sock. This person attended the GCF in Kenosha and I met her. Hardly a sock at all.

 

Now, don't you feel a bit ashamed? :o

 

So gifting coins is just to feed an ego?

 

No...that's not what I said at all...I said gifting coins with *strings attached* just feeds the ego.

Edited by Arthur & Trillian
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MustangJoni

+MustangJoni

Posted
Posted

Is it just me, or is there an inordinate number of posts from a sockpuppet in this thread? ;)

 

I don't think it's just you :rolleyes:

 

Hmmm...are we talking about TheNumber1Bop?

 

Rest assured, folks, that this person isn't a sock. This person attended the GCF in Kenosha and I met her. Hardly a sock at all.

 

Now, don't you feel a bit ashamed? :o

 

 

You will never convince me!

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Flying Spaghetti Monster

Flying Spaghetti Monster

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

If you have issues or think that an account is a sock puppet, report the post and the the moderators and Groundspeak deal with it. Do NOT take this thread off topic and make accusations - I think Eartha and I have been very patient and lenient in this thread so far - maybe to our error.

 

So I'm going to be very clear about this:

Future posts that are off-topic will result in a suspension of posting rights.

 

5c90f7af-225c-465b-a2cd-464bcb540493.jpg

 

Hopefully that is clear.

 

So it appears that we have a few strong opinions in here:

1) If you trade for a coin, you own it. Period.

2) If you trade for a coin, you should honor the restrictions on the coin - or not trade at all.

3) There seems to be some latitude in people's thoughts about ownership, possession and tracking.

 

I think that this is an interesting scenario and bears further discussion:

Say I trade Son of Cyclops for his rare coin and give him 4 of mine. Now I agree to the "no sell" deal and will honour it. A year later I trade Sons coin for a world famous Red Ninja's coin - trade, not sell which I understand is still an okay option. The new 'owner' then turns around and sells the Son of Cyclops coin on ebay.

 

Now, is that okay for the new owner to do? If so why is that any different than me selling the coin (which in reality I did anyway by trading it). I understand about the agreement part but it appears the selling of ones coins are the issue here. So is it a concern no matter who sells it? Was it within my rights to trade that coin to the other collector in the first place? If I no longer wanted the Son of Cyclops coin in a year from now am I entitled to get my coins back from Cylcops - I mean since it was only a loaner coin anyway right?

 

If I can summarize (hopefully correctly):

If the original recipient of a coin with "strings" honors those "strings", does a subsequent owner of said coin have to honor that as well? Afterall, the agreement was between the person who originally got the coin from the owner/maker, etc.

Edited by Flying Spaghetti Monster
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Rockin Roddy

+Rockin Roddy

Posted
Posted

My thought on that is, if I were honoring a trade between someone I negotiated with, I'd assume we'd have discussed that as well.

 

If it were a mystery coin, trade is fine as you'd like as long as the stipulation is made that it's not to be sold!

 

I hope nobody here thinks I'm upset in any way or at any time during this debate. If any of my posts have come across "harsh", I apologize. It's been a rough week (no excuse I guess)...I'm actually enjoying the debate, carry on!

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ArtieD

+ArtieD

Posted
Posted
If I can summarize (hopefully correctly):

If the original recipient of a coin with "strings" honors those "strings", does a subsequent owner of said coin have to honor that as well? Afterall, the agreement was between the person who originally got the coin from the owner/maker, etc.

 

If such an agreement were struck between the original traders, then no, the third person should not be obligated to comply.

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bikinibottomfeeders

+bikinibottomfeeders

Posted
Posted

I think that there is another point here that also needs elaborating on for us unethical people out here.

 

I feel like everyone is saying that if someone recieved a "strings attached" coin it would be better for them to trade the coin rather than selling it. Is this correct?

 

question 2: What if the original coin owner and I had a falling out(not about coins) and are no longer talking in order for me to trade it back to them. Would it then be okay for me to trade it to someone else?

 

Disclaimer

**These are both hypothetical points and are no way related to the current dibacle(sp) that I encountered. Ethics and morality are just a couple of hobbies of mine I guess you could say.

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bikinibottomfeeders

+bikinibottomfeeders

Posted
Posted

RR - you've been fine.

 

If such an agreement were struck between the original traders, then no, the third person should not be obligated to comply.

 

So there's one opinion - how do others feel? (I realize that many are offline right now)

 

I agree with this because there is no guarantee that the potential third owner even knows that it is a "no sell" coin.

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Flying Spaghetti Monster

Flying Spaghetti Monster

Posted
  • Author
Posted

For those who don't want to follow the link, here's a snippet:

 

As in Experiment 1, we first tested for a difference in valuation between (1) those who owned and possessed the object and (2) those who neither owned nor possessed it. When comparing these two cells of our experiment, we found a significant effect on the choice measure, F(1, 46) = 4.13, p .05, prep = .88, w = .06. Those endowed with the object (i.e., owned and possessed it) gave higher monetary valuations, M = $3.82 (SD = 2.28), than those not endowed (i.e., neither owned nor possessed it), M = $2.70 (SD = 1.44). The same effect materialized with the alternative, WTP/WTA dependent measure such that those who owned and possessed the object (M = 4.08, SD = 2.61) gave higher valuations than those who neither owned nor possessed the it (M = 2.76, SD = 1.64), F(1, 46) = 4.37, p .05, prep = .89, w = .06. Thus, the endowment effect was again replicated.

 

I'm sure that helped clear things up. :o

 

:rolleyes:

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Rockin Roddy

+Rockin Roddy

Posted
Posted

Like I said, I'm sure trade would have been discussed in the original trade negotiations. If not though, what can you do? I would guess that it would be possible you'd be contacted by the original owner and something would be worked out? (assuming it were seen for sale on ebay by the owner).

 

Third party trades seem like a rare event to me, but I suppose it could come up from time to time.

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Rockin Roddy

+Rockin Roddy

Posted
Posted

I think that there is another point here that also needs elaborating on for us unethical people out here.

 

I feel like everyone is saying that if someone recieved a "strings attached" coin it would be better for them to trade the coin rather than selling it. Is this correct?

 

question 2: What if the original coin owner and I had a falling out(not about coins) and are no longer talking in order for me to trade it back to them. Would it then be okay for me to trade it to someone else?

 

Disclaimer

**These are both hypothetical points and are no way related to the current dibacle(sp) that I encountered. Ethics and morality are just a couple of hobbies of mine I guess you could say.

 

Is it completely impossible to make arrangements for the trade back of personals? Hypothetically of course.... That would seem the "proper" thing to do. (MHO)

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Rockin Roddy

+Rockin Roddy

Posted
Posted

FSM for some it will.

For others it is deep.

 

If you just follow the though pattern of why when you have something the value increases,even if you don't own it.

 

I am sure as I study it more it will become some what like mud to me too. But I can follow most of it.

 

And some in here have the mind to help ravel out the mystery of the Why's.

 

not me....that's a fact! :rolleyes:

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sillygirl & jrr

+sillygirl & jrr

Posted
Posted

If such an agreement were struck between the original traders, then no, the third person should not be obligated to comply.

 

So there's one opinion - how do others feel? (I realize that many are offline right now)

 

I disagree. IMO, the "strings" associated with the original transaction actually become part of the geocoin. This is how conditions work with other types property. For example, when we acquired our current home it came with "encroachment agreements." For a variety of reasons, part of our neighbor's retaining wall was actally on our property; the previous owners & neighbors had written a mutually acceptable agreement allowing this. When we bought the property, we had to agree to abide by the previous owner's commitment. This would have been the case weather we bought it, inherited it, or won it on a bet; we would not have been allowed to own the house without also agreeing to the previous owner's "strings."

 

In addition, saying future owners don't have to abide by the conditions, just seem to me a big loophole for someone wanting an easy way out. Anyone wishing to sell a coin they agreed not to sell, could simply trade/gift the coin to a relative/friend and have that person sell coin as a way to circumvent his/her original agreement. Now I realize that the value of a geocoin is nothing compared with a house, but it just helps me to think about analogous situations and how they might be handled.

 

jrr

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