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People logging "finds" when they were present when the cache was placed


GeoMeerkats
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ok quick question, what's the difference of being there when it's hidden and logging it , or going out searching for 5 mins and making a call to the owner for help so you can log it? I don't really see a difference at all...(time not withstanding, maybe you should have gone along for the hide in the first place). So, to me it doesn't matter at all. I cache my way you cache yours and quite honestly it doesn't matter to me if ya like it or not....lol. Example... I was out looking for a place to hide a cache when I stumbled upon a cache already hidden. I signed the log went home and found out it was a 6 part cache, perhaps I should take that off my found list, but I can't find the "blindly stumbled into it " choice. Maybe, we should all just agree to disagree and let it at that....ahhhhh but there's the rub....can we

 

Yes, you do have a good point.

 

Personally I think it boils down to the 'intent of effort' to find a cache. That's the difference. Finding a cache laying out in the open or tagging along with the owner to claim a find are two different things for me. Some people don't think it is. It's hard for us to agree that our intentions for claiming a cache aren't the same.

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I would question the cache owner more than the finders. Personally, I have some good friends through geocaching I don't dare give them hints. I even placed a cache and the chatted on the phone with friends about caching and purposely not brought it up that I placed one. To log a find while the owner is placing it doesn't seem right to me as the owner or the finder. But hey, people all do what the want so who cares.
I bet that many of the owners in question feel exactly the same as you.

 

That being said, consider this scenario. You are visiting from out of town. I tell you that I found a great spot for a cache and invite you to tag along. We hike out to a location that really is perfect for a cache. I ask you to sit tight for a few minutes while I wander off. A few minutes later, I return and give you a set of coords. You take off and find where I hid the cache.

 

Later that day, I submit the cache to GC.com and it's listed. Should you log your find online?

 

I would ask to be co owner. Like this cache placed by sbell111 and simpjkee. If you weren't cool with that, then I'm not sure if I would log it or not. If I did, I certainly voluntarily remove myself from the running for FTF. No way I'dd call that a FTF by me.

It's been stated several times in this thread that beta-testers never claim FTF. They also wait to log the cache until after the FTF has logged the cache. :(

 

so. he asked me what I would do.

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ok quick question, what's the difference of being there when it's hidden and logging it , or going out searching for 5 mins and making a call to the owner for help so you can log it? I don't really see a difference at all...(time not withstanding, maybe you should have gone along for the hide in the first place). So, to me it doesn't matter at all. I cache my way you cache yours and quite honestly it doesn't matter to me if ya like it or not....lol. Example... I was out looking for a place to hide a cache when I stumbled upon a cache already hidden. I signed the log went home and found out it was a 6 part cache, perhaps I should take that off my found list, but I can't find the "blindly stumbled into it " choice. Maybe, we should all just agree to disagree and let it at that....ahhhhh but there's the rub....can we

Yes, you do have a good point.

 

Personally I think it boils down to the 'intent of effort' to find a cache. That's the difference. Finding a cache laying out in the open or tagging along with the owner to claim a find are two different things for me. Some people don't think it is. It's hard for us to agree that our intentions for claiming a cache aren't the same.

 

'Intent of effort' sounds like a legal term. We are talking about a game here, aren't we? I think it's very simple. Were you at the cache coords and did you sign the log? It's the same reasoning when your buddy pulls a cache out of a hole and you turn around and sign the logbook. It's the same reasoning that allows people to phone a friend when they can't find the cache to tell them where it is. They log the cache even though they failed at finding it. It's the same thing as coming up on another cacher when they are signing the logbook. Do you fake like you don't know where it was and then pretend to find it? Anyhow, there are numberous examples where a cache is not found by the "ideal" standard. But who cares, we live in the real world. We are doing it for fun and to log our adventures. The cache is just the period at the end of the story.
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They probably do it because they don't know about the ignore feature, and don't want to see it on their closest list forever. Or maybe they define "Find" different than most of us do.

 

There was a time when there was no ignore feature. So I think most people found them to get them out of their PQs. :P

Another good point. If only someone had already said that. :P

Nobody did. Looking for trouble again? :(

 

Anyhow, a lot of caching habits were formed in the olden days of caching. Out here when people hide a cache with a group, we walk away and let them hide it. Then they give us the coords and then we find it. We call this "beta-testing." We always log our beta test logs after the FTF as a courtesy to the FTFer. :(

 

Exactly - I've beta tested a few and have had a few of mine beta tested. With one condition. For us anyway, beta testers do not log FTF's and leave room at the top of the log for the real FTF's.

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They probably do it because they don't know about the ignore feature, and don't want to see it on their closest list forever. Or maybe they define "Find" different than most of us do.

 

There was a time when there was no ignore feature. So I think most people found them to get them out of their PQs. :P

Another good point. If only someone had already said that. :P

Nobody did. Looking for trouble again? :(

 

Anyhow, a lot of caching habits were formed in the olden days of caching. Out here when people hide a cache with a group, we walk away and let them hide it. Then they give us the coords and then we find it. We call this "beta-testing." We always log our beta test logs after the FTF as a courtesy to the FTFer. :(

 

Exactly - I've beta tested a few and have had a few of mine beta tested. With one condition. For us anyway, beta testers do not log FTF's and leave room at the top of the log for the real FTF's.

That's exactly how we do it down here too. :P
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ok quick question, what's the difference of being there when it's hidden and logging it , or going out searching for 5 mins and making a call to the owner for help so you can log it? I don't really see a difference at all...(time not withstanding, maybe you should have gone along for the hide in the first place). So, to me it doesn't matter at all. I cache my way you cache yours and quite honestly it doesn't matter to me if ya like it or not....lol. Example... I was out looking for a place to hide a cache when I stumbled upon a cache already hidden. I signed the log went home and found out it was a 6 part cache, perhaps I should take that off my found list, but I can't find the "blindly stumbled into it " choice. Maybe, we should all just agree to disagree and let it at that....ahhhhh but there's the rub....can we

Yes, you do have a good point.

 

Personally I think it boils down to the 'intent of effort' to find a cache. That's the difference. Finding a cache laying out in the open or tagging along with the owner to claim a find are two different things for me. Some people don't think it is. It's hard for us to agree that our intentions for claiming a cache aren't the same.

 

'Intent of effort' sounds like a legal term. We are talking about a game here, aren't we? I think it's very simple. Were you at the cache coords and did you sign the log? It's the same reasoning when your buddy pulls a cache out of a hole and you turn around and sign the logbook. It's the same reasoning that allows people to phone a friend when they can't find the cache to tell them where it is. They log the cache even though they failed at finding it. It's the same thing as coming up on another cacher when they are signing the logbook. Do you fake like you don't know where it was and then pretend to find it? Anyhow, there are numberous examples where a cache is not found by the "ideal" standard. But who cares, we live in the real world. We are doing it for fun and to log our adventures. The cache is just the period at the end of the story.

 

(God, take me now)

 

Did you try?

 

That's all I meant.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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ok quick question, what's the difference of being there when it's hidden and logging it , or going out searching for 5 mins and making a call to the owner for help so you can log it? I don't really see a difference at all...(time not withstanding, maybe you should have gone along for the hide in the first place). So, to me it doesn't matter at all. I cache my way you cache yours and quite honestly it doesn't matter to me if ya like it or not....lol. Example... I was out looking for a place to hide a cache when I stumbled upon a cache already hidden. I signed the log went home and found out it was a 6 part cache, perhaps I should take that off my found list, but I can't find the "blindly stumbled into it " choice. Maybe, we should all just agree to disagree and let it at that....ahhhhh but there's the rub....can we

Yes, you do have a good point.

 

Personally I think it boils down to the 'intent of effort' to find a cache. That's the difference. Finding a cache laying out in the open or tagging along with the owner to claim a find are two different things for me. Some people don't think it is. It's hard for us to agree that our intentions for claiming a cache aren't the same.

 

'Intent of effort' sounds like a legal term. We are talking about a game here, aren't we? I think it's very simple. Were you at the cache coords and did you sign the log? It's the same reasoning when your buddy pulls a cache out of a hole and you turn around and sign the logbook. It's the same reasoning that allows people to phone a friend when they can't find the cache to tell them where it is. They log the cache even though they failed at finding it. It's the same thing as coming up on another cacher when they are signing the logbook. Do you fake like you don't know where it was and then pretend to find it? Anyhow, there are numberous examples where a cache is not found by the "ideal" standard. But who cares, we live in the real world. We are doing it for fun and to log our adventures. The cache is just the period at the end of the story.

 

(God, take me now)

 

Did you try?

 

That's all I meant.

:P BD, I agree with you 90% of the time, but this appears to be one of those 10% times. If I hiked 5 miles up to a scenic overlook and someone dropped a cache, then I sure as heck did "try" and I had fun! :(
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:P BD, I agree with you 90% of the time, but this appears to be one of those 10% times. If I hiked 5 miles up to a scenic overlook and someone dropped a cache, then I sure as heck did "try" and I had fun! :(

 

I can appreciate that. And while I may be passionate I am flexible, because I don't know and can't define every situation. So if I give 5% and you give 5% then occasionally we meet.

 

Edit: Quote fix

Edited by BlueDeuce
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I would question the cache owner more than the finders. Personally, I have some good friends through geocaching I don't dare give them hints. I even placed a cache and the chatted on the phone with friends about caching and purposely not brought it up that I placed one. To log a find while the owner is placing it doesn't seem right to me as the owner or the finder. But hey, people all do what the want so who cares.
I bet that many of the owners in question feel exactly the same as you.

 

That being said, consider this scenario. You are visiting from out of town. I tell you that I found a great spot for a cache and invite you to tag along. We hike out to a location that really is perfect for a cache. I ask you to sit tight for a few minutes while I wander off. A few minutes later, I return and give you a set of coords. You take off and find where I hid the cache.

 

Later that day, I submit the cache to GC.com and it's listed. Should you log your find online?

I would ask to be co owner. Like this cache placed by sbell111 and simpjkee. If you weren't cool with that, then I'm not sure if I would log it or not. If I did, I certainly voluntarily remove myself from the running for FTF. No way I'dd call that a FTF by me.
In my scenario, you were not in view when I planted the cache. Until you find it, you would have no real knowledge of exactly where and how it is hidden. You may not even know exactly what the container is.

 

It would not be appropriate for you to 'co-own' the cache.

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Were you at the cache coords and did you sign the log? It's the same reasoning when your buddy pulls a cache out of a hole and you turn around and sign the logbook.

 

I keep seeing this point coming up over and over. I still think it depends.

 

Scenario 1: Three or four people arrive and begin hunting a cache. Someone finds it and everyone signs in. Everyone claims a Find and not many people would argue with it. I know I've done it.

 

Scenario 2: Someone decides to hide a cache. He/She hands it around to the other three people in the group, they sign the log and then the owner hides the cache. The "finders" then log it as a Find, sometimes waiting until after the true FTF logs it online.

 

I think of it as the difference between going fishing in a lake or shooting fish in a barrel. The end result might be the same, but one is certainly more "sporting" than the other. No one will ever convince me that ALL of these "found it at the time is was hidden" people were beta testing the caches.

 

I've said it before: I know it doesn't affect me but it still bugs me. I don't know why. All I know is if I am with someone who hides a cache I will wait until I return at some later date to make the find. If I am with a group of seekers and someone else in the group finds the cache I will sign the log.

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Were you at the cache coords and did you sign the log? It's the same reasoning when your buddy pulls a cache out of a hole and you turn around and sign the logbook.

 

I keep seeing this point coming up over and over. I still think it depends.

 

Scenario 1: Three or four people arrive and begin hunting a cache. Someone finds it and everyone signs in. Everyone claims a Find and not many people would argue with it. I know I've done it.

 

Scenario 2: Someone decides to hide a cache. He/She hands it around to the other three people in the group, they sign the log and then the owner hides the cache. The "finders" then log it as a Find, sometimes waiting until after the true FTF logs it online.

 

I think of it as the difference between going fishing in a lake or shooting fish in a barrel. The end result might be the same, but one is certainly more "sporting" than the other. No one will ever convince me that ALL of these "found it at the time is was hidden" people were beta testing the caches.

 

I've said it before: I know it doesn't affect me but it still bugs me. I don't know why. All I know is if I am with someone who hides a cache I will wait until I return at some later date to make the find. If I am with a group of seekers and someone else in the group finds the cache I will sign the log.

 

I see your point. BD said it very well earlier, since we don't know the circumstances of each situation, it boils down to a judgement call. To me going on a 5 mile hike and signing the logbook of a cache my buddy placed is way more sporting than driving to an existing cache in a Wal-Mart parking lot and lifting up a lamp post skirt and signing that logbook. The bottomline is that each cache gives the finder something different. The 5 mile hike gave me an enjoyable morning hiking with my friends. Finally like I said before this practice was formed long before there was an ignore button. So logging these caches also had the benefit of getting them out of our PQs.
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I keep seeing this point coming up over and over. I still think it depends.

 

Scenario 1: Three or four people arrive and begin hunting a cache. Someone finds it and everyone signs in. Everyone claims a Find and not many people would argue with it. I know I've done it.

 

Scenario 2: Someone decides to hide a cache. He/She hands it around to the other three people in the group, they sign the log and then the owner hides the cache. The "finders" then log it as a Find, sometimes waiting until after the true FTF logs it online.

Scenario 3: Someone decides to hide a cache. He hides it while his buddy waits patiently, down the trail a ways. Once the hider finishes the hiding, he returns to his pal and gives him the coords. The friend then goes and finds the hidden cache, while the hider taunts him. The finder then logs it as a Find, typically waiting until after the first person who found the cache after it was listed logs it online or notes in his log that he beta tested it.
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Whenever I'm with a group and someone decides to hide a cache, I close my eyes and count to 100, then I shout "ReadyOrNot, Here I come". (Actually I haven't ever been there when ReadyOrNot hid a cache, this was just an example). If these rules are good enough for Hide 'n Seek, they should work for Geocaching too.

Edited by tozainamboku
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Whenever I'm with a group and someone decides to hide a cache, I close my eyes and count to 100, then I shout "ReadyOrNot, Here I come". (Actually I haven't ever been there when ReadyOrNot hid a cache, this was just an example). If these rules are good enough for Hide 'n Seek, they should work for Geocaching too.

I tend to offer the cache hider more time. I call out "Apples, peaches, pumpkin pie; Who's not ready holler 'I'". If ReadyOrNot calls out that he needs more time, I give him some more. Otherwise, I yell 'ReadyOrNot, here I come' and start my search.

Edited by sbell111
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I keep seeing this point coming up over and over. I still think it depends.

 

Scenario 1: Three or four people arrive and begin hunting a cache. Someone finds it and everyone signs in. Everyone claims a Find and not many people would argue with it. I know I've done it.

 

Scenario 2: Someone decides to hide a cache. He/She hands it around to the other three people in the group, they sign the log and then the owner hides the cache. The "finders" then log it as a Find, sometimes waiting until after the true FTF logs it online.

 

Scenario 3: Someone decides to hide a cache. He hides it while his buddy waits patiently, down the trail a ways. Once the hider finishes the hiding, he returns to his pal and gives him the coords. The friend then goes and finds the hidden cache, while the hider taunts him. The finder then logs it as a Find, typically waiting until after the first person who found the cache after it was listed logs it online or notes in his log that he beta tested it.

 

I have experienced all three of these scenarios...and each one has ended with me posting a find on the cache. Again, it should be clear that scenario two (in my experiences) was not a team hide...

 

Out caching with a group and one of the members decides to hide a cache and wants "credit" for the hide. It wasn't planned that a hide was going to happen...the cacher just decided to hide a cache and it happens, it gets placed...and most important, I don't lose any sleep over it.

 

They are my Numbers...Not Yours!!!

 

So, if you want to compare your numbers to mine, be my guest...but I can honestly say I don't compare my number to yours. I don't play the game to "win"...I play the game becuase it is something I enjoy.

 

Later,

ArcherDragoon

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They are my Numbers...Not Yours!!!

 

So, if you want to compare your numbers to mine, be my guest...but I can honestly say I don't compare my number to yours. I don't play the game to "win"...I play the game because it is something I enjoy.

Best post I've seen here so far.

 

If you want to compare your numbers to someone else, the only real way to do this is if they log Finds the same way you do. If someone logs differently, this will bother you a lot.

 

However, if you don't care about other peoples numbers, then their logging practices won't bother you either.

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They are my Numbers...Not Yours!!!

 

So, if you want to compare your numbers to mine, be my guest...but I can honestly say I don't compare my number to yours. I don't play the game to "win"...I play the game because it is something I enjoy.

Best post I've seen here so far.

 

If you want to compare your numbers to someone else, the only real way to do this is if they log Finds the same way you do. If someone logs differently, this will bother you a lot.

 

However, if you don't care about other peoples numbers, then their logging practices won't bother you either.

Pretty much the point I was trying to make also. It's a GAME.

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They are my Numbers...Not Yours!!!

 

So, if you want to compare your numbers to mine, be my guest...but I can honestly say I don't compare my number to yours. I don't play the game to "win"...I play the game because it is something I enjoy.

Best post I've seen here so far.

 

If you want to compare your numbers to someone else, the only real way to do this is if they log Finds the same way you do. If someone logs differently, this will bother you a lot.

 

However, if you don't care about other peoples numbers, then their logging practices won't bother you either.

Pretty much the point I was trying to make also. It's a GAME.

I think that's the point I was making by saying you should use the same rules as Hide 'n Seek.

 

But before you decide that it alright to count whatever you want as find please understand why this gets some people upset. Mostly these people are apathetic when it comes to you numbers. They don't care if you only find one or two very difficult high terrain caches or if you like to power cache and find hundreds of 1/1 caches. They don't care if you cache a lot more often then they do and have a big number of finds or if you are a casual geocacher who only goes out once and a while and may not even log all your finds. What does bother them is that they perceive you as being dishonest because you log logged a find that they wouldn't log.

 

Geocaching.com allows you to log 'found it', 'didn't find it', and 'note'. The reason for the different log types is that different types are appropriate to different situations. If you are using the 'found it' log for something other than you actually found a cache you are being dishonest. The problem is there is no agreement as to what it means to find a cache. What if you found it and didn't sign the log because you forgot a pencil or the log was too wet? What if you are caching with a friend who finds the cache and shouts "here it is" instead of backing away to let you search. What if you find the answer to a virtual by searching on the web? What if you left a replacement for a missing cache on behalf of the cache owner? What if you found the empty cache container that some animal had gotten a hold of and left it in the open? Clearly the people who like simple answers like "you have to sign the log to claim a find" have a problem in this case. If you sign the log on a cache you helped to hide, is it a find? Even those who say you have to sign the log after the cache has been published have a problem, what if you help hide the cache and then come back later to sign the log? My guess is that the people who are concerned about deciding what really is a find must lie awake at night trying to come up with a definition they can live with. I'm with those who say this is just a game. If you are comfortable claiming a find then do it. If you are not then write a note. Sleep well at night.

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And there's nothing worse than playing a GAME with someone who makes up the rules as they go along.

 

DCC

 

Please, tell me what the rule is...

 

Let's see...

"What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

2. Leave something in the cache

3. Write about it in the logbook"

 

I share my adventure online and have fun doing it...

 

"Are there any variations in the game?

 

YES! We strongly encourage it, actually. Geocaching is a game that constantly reinvents itself, and the rules are very flexible."

 

I am not playing the game with you...I am playing against myself...but you seem to be playing against me. I never asked anyone to compare their stats to mine...that is an individual choice...but beware, there a different ways to play the same game. It would be truly boring if it was played the same...imagine...all caches were light pole caches...:huh:

 

Later,

ArcherDragoon

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Pretty much the point I was trying to make also. It's a GAME.

 

And there's nothing worse than playing a GAME with someone who makes up the rules as they go along.

 

DCC

I think I see the disconnect here. In your mind you're playing the game with me, therefore you feel the need to compare your numbers to mine, your methods to mine, and in your mind we should play the same way.

 

I, like many others, am not playing the game with you. I'm playing a similar game but in a completely different playground, and I couldn't care less how you play or what you think about how I'm playing.

 

Talking about different ways that folks play is one thing, but talking down about someone and calling them names just because they play in a way that you don't agree with seems like playground behavior to me.

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Pretty much the point I was trying to make also. It's a GAME.

 

And there's nothing worse than playing a GAME with someone who makes up the rules as they go along.

 

DCC

I think I see the disconnect here. In your mind you're playing the game with me, therefore you feel the need to compare your numbers to mine, your methods to mine, and in your mind we should play the same way.

 

I, like many others, am not playing the game with you. I'm playing a similar game but in a completely different playground, and I couldn't care less how you play or what you think about how I'm playing.

 

Talking about different ways that folks play is one thing, but talking down about someone and calling them names just because they play in a way that you don't agree with seems like playground behavior to me.

I have to agree with Mushtang... but let me take it a bit further,first off I'm NOT playing with you OR against you. Second, it's not a competition with anyone (unless YOU make it one).There's no championship, prize money or international glory for having the most finds, the most FTF's or anything else for that matter. Also, I don't recall seeing a referee, or time keeper any where I've cached thus far. Really, what is the big deal? For me it's just a way to get outside and enjoy my surroundings, period.

Edited by Tup
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Pretty much the point I was trying to make also. It's a GAME.

 

And there's nothing worse than playing a GAME with someone who makes up the rules as they go along.

 

DCC

I think I see the disconnect here. In your mind you're playing the game with me, therefore you feel the need to compare your numbers to mine, your methods to mine, and in your mind we should play the same way.

 

I, like many others, am not playing the game with you. I'm playing a similar game but in a completely different playground, and I couldn't care less how you play or what you think about how I'm playing.

 

Talking about different ways that folks play is one thing, but talking down about someone and calling them names just because they play in a way that you don't agree with seems like playground behavior to me.

 

:laughing:

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I wouldn't do it, but I don't lose any sleep over how people like to 'find' caches.

 

I agree with BlueDeuce. Who really cares- I say it all depends on the owner of the cache. For me personally, when I have somebody to test my cache to make sure that the coords is correct or whatever, I make them promise that they would not log their find until there is a FTF because around here people can get very nasty about FTF thing.

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