People logging "finds" when they were present when the cache was placed

[Mushtang]

Get over it.

 

There are no rules. We all play the game the way we want to. You'll only cause yourself untold frustration if you try and impose your rules on everyone else.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

 

I'm moving a little closer to this camp the more I cache. You only have so much energy. Expending it worrying about how others play is really a bad use of it.

Welcome to the age of enlightenment.

 

Not caring how someone else plays the game (providing it's not hurting anyone else) is a lot easier on the heart than trying to convince others that they're playing wrong because they play differently.

 

But there are those that just have to tell other people the "right" way to play. And to them I say, "Eh, whatever. You'll figure it out for yourself someday too. Or not".

[+Rattlebars]

Our team has a rule. Nobody can claim FTF on another member's cache, but must wait until it gets logged. Now, we have been together on a couple of caches only because of the terrian (don't want to set it alone, break a leg, get stuck, die).

 

I see no reason not to log a cache you helped place. You made the trip, you were there. I have only two to my list, but one of those was a "beta" test for the team member. Though we did ride together and I was only 200 feet from the cache itself.

[+Chuy!]

Geocacher Wannabe (the thread starter), we haven't heard a peep out of you, and you started this thread. I hope we didn't scare you away.

 

We've pointed out TPTB don't forbid the practice and the decision to log such a find may come down to what the group does and/or what the cache owner allows.

[+simpjkee]

I would question the cache owner more than the finders. Personally, I have some good friends through geocaching I don't dare give them hints. I even placed a cache and the chatted on the phone with friends about caching and purposely not brought it up that I placed one. To log a find while the owner is placing it doesn't seem right to me as the owner or the finder. But hey, people all do what the want so who cares.

[+BlueDeuce]

Get over it.

 

There are no rules. We all play the game the way we want to. You'll only cause yourself untold frustration if you try and impose your rules on everyone else.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

 

I'm moving a little closer to this camp the more I cache. You only have so much energy. Expending it worrying about how others play is really a bad use of it.

Welcome to the age of enlightenment.

 

Not caring how someone else plays the game (providing it's not hurting anyone else) is a lot easier on the heart than trying to convince others that they're playing wrong because they play differently.

 

But there are those that just have to tell other people the "right" way to play. And to them I say, "Eh, whatever. You'll figure it out for yourself someday too. Or not".

 

You don't want to go too far over to the 'there are no rules' side. There are practices that have been deemed abusing the system and others that can make you extremely unpopular in your community.

 

Hiding a cache with the owner and claiming a find hasn't reached the level of getting your account banned or increased the sales of pitchforks and torches.

 

It's just a questionable practice, so I'll say that much and move on.

[Mushtang]

Get over it.

 

There are no rules. We all play the game the way we want to. You'll only cause yourself untold frustration if you try and impose your rules on everyone else.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

 

I'm moving a little closer to this camp the more I cache. You only have so much energy. Expending it worrying about how others play is really a bad use of it.

Welcome to the age of enlightenment.

 

Not caring how someone else plays the game (providing it's not hurting anyone else) is a lot easier on the heart than trying to convince others that they're playing wrong because they play differently.

 

But there are those that just have to tell other people the "right" way to play. And to them I say, "Eh, whatever. You'll figure it out for yourself someday too. Or not".

 

You don't want to go too far over to the 'there are no rules' side. There are practices that have been deemed abusing the system and others that can make you extremely unpopular in your community.

 

Hiding a cache with the owner and claiming a find hasn't reached the level of getting your account banned or increased the sales of pitchforks and torches.

 

It's just a questionable practice, so I'll say that much and move on.

 

You didn't specify which practices you're talking about, but you're right that some will get you banned and make you unpopular with the community, such as stealing caches, destroying caches, etc. These are also the practices that hurt others.

 

There are some practices that are frowned on by some people in the forums, but have not necessarily been deemed abusing the system by everyone, such as multilogging events, logging a find on your own caches, etc. These are the practices that get people's underwear in knots because they are concerned with other people's numbers.

 

I'd say that logging a Find when you were there when someone else placed it falls into the second category. It's not hurting anyone, there's nothing against it in the guidelines, but some people will still get upset if you do it.

 

Eh, whatever.

[+sbell111]

I would question the cache owner more than the finders. Personally, I have some good friends through geocaching I don't dare give them hints. I even placed a cache and the chatted on the phone with friends about caching and purposely not brought it up that I placed one. To log a find while the owner is placing it doesn't seem right to me as the owner or the finder. But hey, people all do what the want so who cares.

I bet that many of the owners in question feel exactly the same as you.

 

That being said, consider this scenario. You are visiting from out of town. I tell you that I found a great spot for a cache and invite you to tag along. We hike out to a location that really is perfect for a cache. I ask you to sit tight for a few minutes while I wander off. A few minutes later, I return and give you a set of coords. You take off and find where I hid the cache.

 

Later that day, I submit the cache to GC.com and it's listed. Should you log your find online?

[+ArcherDragoon]

Have any of you naysayers ever been with caching someone else when they found the cache and you didn't? Did you sign the logbook when you didn't actually "find" the cache? So let he who has never logged a cache, that he hasn't actually found all by himself, cast the first stone!

 

If you step back and look at the big picture, it seems really silly to be right next to someone when you watch them drop a cache at a cool spot and not sign the back of logbook as a beta-tester. My signature simply means that "I was there" at that spot! Caching has always been about visiting cool spots around the country for me. So if I "was there" I will sign the log!

 

to the OP:

 

I don't care how other people log their finds... and I'm helping ensure people don't care about how I log mine.

 

Everyone plays the game their own way. It's not up to "you", or anyone else to make sure they do it the way "YOU" think it should be done.

 

 

michelle

 

Hey,

 

I really couldn't say it any better then those two folks...

 

Later,

ArcherDragoon

[+Scare Force One]

As long as they can go to sleep at the end of the day I wouldent worry about it. We do this for fun, not for the numbers.

 

~.~Scare Force One

[+Mule Ears]

We're not playing for points, but reputation, and someone who 'finds' a cache that he helped place is damaging his reputation, putting an asterisk of disgrace beside his name in the mental record books of other cachers. No amount of rationalizing about rules or guidelines will prevent it. He can rack up an enormous find count, but it'll always have a bit of a odor about it.

[+sbell111]

We're not playing for points, but reputation, and someone who 'finds' a cache that he helped place is damaging his reputation, putting an asterisk of disgrace beside his name in the mental record books of other cachers. No amount of rationalizing about rules or guidelines will prevent it. He can rack up an enormous find count, but it'll always have a bit of a odor about it.

For the most part, I'll never know whether someone helped place a cache, or not. That being said, I wouldn't consider the beta testing example I gave in my last post in this thread to be an example of someone 'helping place a cache' and I can not imagine any shame attached to logging a cache after taking such action.

 

If someone disagrees with me, I wish that they would explain why they feel the way that they do.

[+Mule Ears]

That being said, consider this scenario. You are visiting from out of town. I tell you that I found a great spot for a cache and invite you to tag along. We hike out to a location that really is perfect for a cache. I ask you to sit tight for a few minutes while I wander off. A few minutes later, I return and give you a set of coords. You take off and find where I hid the cache.

 

Later that day, I submit the cache to GC.com and it's listed. Should you log your find online?

 

No. The companion hiker found the cache before it was approved and was essentially guaranteed FTF. In your scenario, what would you, the cache owner, have done if he somehow failed to find the cache? You'd have helped him find it (or had a very quiet return hike).

 

I'm not an FTF fanatic, but I can see how this would irritate the folks who do chase FTFs. Their opinions of both cachers involved in this scenario would drop a notch. No amount of explanation or rationalization would change that.

[+ArcherDragoon]

We're not playing for points, but reputation, and someone who 'finds' a cache that he helped place is damaging his reputation, putting an asterisk of disgrace beside his name in the mental record books of other cachers. No amount of rationalizing about rules or guidelines will prevent it. He can rack up an enormous find count, but it'll always have a bit of a odor about it.

 

I guess I go a different way here...I would have to say that a cacher's reputation should be based off his/her interaction with fellow cachers, not his/her find count. I know a couple cachers in the 4000+ range and their reputation...well is not the greatest to say the least.

 

I have never said I don't play for the numbers...but I do make it clear that I play for my numbers.

1st: I am way to lazy to pick apart someone's numbers to be able to compare "apples to apples"...or even to pick through my own numbers to compare "oranges to oranges"...

Example (and I know this will get some comments): I log temp caches, others do not...

2nd: I don't use stats to get to know a cacher...I go to events to be social to get to know cachers and interact...and learn.

3rd: I don't get paid to go caching...so why worry about who is doing what...the moment we all get paid for this is the moment I will worry about these things (ok, maybe not even then).

 

For the most part, I'll never know whether someone helped place a cache, or not. That being said, I wouldn't consider the beta testing example I gave in my last post in this thread to be an example of someone 'helping place a cache' and I can not imagine any shame attached to logging a cache after taking such action.

 

If someone disagrees with me, I wish that they would explain why they feel the way that they do.

 

Agree: Beta testing and helping place a cache are two different things...

 

So, that is my opinion...

 

Later,

ArcherDragoon

[+Ambrosia]

Yeah, that Ambrosia, she has such a bad reputation! What a disgrace to the sport.

 

[+sbell111]

That being said, consider this scenario. You are visiting from out of town. I tell you that I found a great spot for a cache and invite you to tag along. We hike out to a location that really is perfect for a cache. I ask you to sit tight for a few minutes while I wander off. A few minutes later, I return and give you a set of coords. You take off and find where I hid the cache.

 

Later that day, I submit the cache to GC.com and it's listed. Should you log your find online?

No. The companion hiker found the cache before it was approved and was essentially guaranteed FTF. In your scenario, what would you, the cache owner, have done if he somehow failed to find the cache? You'd have helped him find it (or had a very quiet return hike).

Assuming that he was looking in the correct area, I would follow him around taunting him and laughing. If he wasn't looking in the doccect area, I'd double check my coords.

I'm not an FTF fanatic, but I can see how this would irritate the folks who do chase FTFs. Their opinions of both cachers involved in this scenario would drop a notch. No amount of explanation or rationalization would change that.

First off, it's only fair to explain that the FTF game is not really my concern. That being said, if the person logs that they beta tested the cache, the FTF game is completely unaffected. The first person to find the cache after it has been listed is FTF.

 

Consider a cross-posted cache. A cache is submitted to TC.com and GC.com. For whatever reason, it is listed on TC.com two days prior to being listed on GC.com. A TC.com player finds the cache logs the find at TC.com and moves on with his life. The cache is then listed at GC.com and the FTF hunters go for it. The first GC.com player to find the cache is still FTF, even though someone had previously signed the logbook.

 

Consider a moved-and-relisted cache. A cache is archived and moved a mile away. It is relisted as a new cache. The FTF hunters go for it. The player to find the cache is still FTF, even though that player had previously signed the logbook.

[+ArcherDragoon]

That being said, consider this scenario. You are visiting from out of town. I tell you that I found a great spot for a cache and invite you to tag along. We hike out to a location that really is perfect for a cache. I ask you to sit tight for a few minutes while I wander off. A few minutes later, I return and give you a set of coords. You take off and find where I hid the cache.

 

Later that day, I submit the cache to GC.com and it's listed. Should you log your find online?

 

No. The companion hiker found the cache before it was approved and was essentially guaranteed FTF. In your scenario, what would you, the cache owner, have done if he somehow failed to find the cache? You'd have helped him find it (or had a very quiet return hike).

 

I'm not an FTF fanatic, but I can see how this would irritate the folks who do chase FTFs. Their opinions of both cachers involved in this scenario would drop a notch. No amount of explanation or rationalization would change that.

 

sbell111 asked Should you log your find online? ...you added posting FTF...there is a difference!!! First to Find goes to the first person to find the cache when published...at least that is my opinion...

 

Besides...helping a friend find a cache...who hasn't helped a friend find a cache???

 

--If you haven't helped a friend find a cache, you are more then welcome to throw the stones my way...

 

Ready!!! Aim!!! Fire!!!

 

Later,

ArcherDragoon

Edited November 6, 2007 by ArcherDragoon

[+Too Tall John]

That being said, consider this scenario. You are visiting from out of town. I tell you that I found a great spot for a cache and invite you to tag along. We hike out to a location that really is perfect for a cache. I ask you to sit tight for a few minutes while I wander off. A few minutes later, I return and give you a set of coords. You take off and find where I hid the cache.

 

Later that day, I submit the cache to GC.com and it's listed. Should you log your find online?

No. The companion hiker found the cache before it was approved and was essentially guaranteed FTF. In your scenario, what would you, the cache owner, have done if he somehow failed to find the cache? You'd have helped him find it (or had a very quiet return hike).

 

I'm not an FTF fanatic, but I can see how this would irritate the folks who do chase FTFs. Their opinions of both cachers involved in this scenario would drop a notch. No amount of explanation or rationalization would change that.

Do you still feel the same way now that sbell111 has clarified that this would be logged as a beta test?

...I wouldn't consider the beta testing example I gave in my last post in this thread to be an example of someone 'helping place a cache' and I can not imagine any shame attached to logging a cache after taking such action.

 

If someone disagrees with me, I wish that they would explain why they feel the way that they do.

Personally, I've been in a number of situations and read about many more where I wish there had been a beta tester who went along behind the hider to say "Yeah, I can find this cache. Good coordinates, good hide." They went through the same steps I did to find the cache, but did it for my benifit, that is, to make sure I'd be able to find it before it got listed. As long as they don't claim FTF (and even if they do) I want to throw out a big "THANK YOU" to all the beta testers out there! You've made my caching experience much less frustrating!

[+ArcherDragoon]

That being said, consider this scenario. You are visiting from out of town. I tell you that I found a great spot for a cache and invite you to tag along. We hike out to a location that really is perfect for a cache. I ask you to sit tight for a few minutes while I wander off. A few minutes later, I return and give you a set of coords. You take off and find where I hid the cache.

 

Later that day, I submit the cache to GC.com and it's listed. Should you log your find online?

No. The companion hiker found the cache before it was approved and was essentially guaranteed FTF. In your scenario, what would you, the cache owner, have done if he somehow failed to find the cache? You'd have helped him find it (or had a very quiet return hike).

Assuming that he was looking in the correct area, I would follow him around taunting him and laughing. If he wasn't looking in the doccect area, I'd double check my coords.

I'm not an FTF fanatic, but I can see how this would irritate the folks who do chase FTFs. Their opinions of both cachers involved in this scenario would drop a notch. No amount of explanation or rationalization would change that.

First off, it's only fair to explain that the FTF game is not really my concern. That being said, if the person logs that they beta tested the cache, the FTF game is completely unaffected. The first person to find the cache after it has been listed is FTF.

 

Consider a cross-posted cache. A cache is submitted to TC.com and GC.com. For whatever reason, it is listed on TC.com two days prior to being listed on GC.com. A TC.com player finds the cache logs the find at TC.com and moves on with his life. The cache is then listed at GC.com and the FTF hunters go for it. The first GC.com player to find the cache is still FTF, even though someone had previously signed the logbook.

 

Consider a moved-and-relisted cache. A cache is archived and moved a mile away. It is relisted as a new cache. The FTF hunters go for it. The player to find the cache is still FTF, even though that player had previously signed the logbook.

 

Now, that is fun too!!!

Edited November 6, 2007 by ArcherDragoon

[Mushtang]

We're not playing for points, but reputation,

That may be true for YOU, but I can show you a whole field full of people that play for points.

 

and someone who 'finds' a cache that he helped place is damaging his reputation,

In your eyes

 

putting an asterisk of disgrace beside his name in the mental record books of other cachers that concern themselves more with other people's numbers than their own.

Fixed.

 

No amount of rationalizing about rules or guidelines will prevent it.

No need to. You're allowed to look down on someone if you'd like to.

 

He can rack up an enormous find count, but it'll always have a bit of a odor about it.

Only to those that care about other peoples numbers.

 

Let me ask you a question, why are you so concerned with how I'm playing the game and with what I'm counting as a Find?

[+egami]

What do you think of these people logging "finds" where they note that they were there when the cache was placed. How is that a "find"? Should it qualify as a "find"? Did they have to actually hunt for it like every other "finder"?

 

What do the rest of you think?

 

Report to the Feds, imo.

[+Driver Carries Cache]

This is a cheesy practice, mostly done by those looking to pad their numbers. Beta testing a hide is a completely different practice as the whole idea of a beta test is to see what the true finders experience will be. If you stand there (or sit there) and watch a buddy place a cache and before he places the camo over it you think "oh yeah, before you hide it, lemme sign the log", that's not a beta test, it's blatant numbers-padding, and you obviously don't get the point of this game. If you're really that desperate to record your visit to this remote and beautiful location that you'll never have the chance to visit again... take some photos and post a note to the cache page telling people how great the place and the hide are.

 

And to those who use the "it doesn't hurt me" approach. Run a Google search and tell me how many good things have come out of apathy (other than you feeling "carefree" at the present moment).

 

Apathy is the refuge of those who don't have the conviction to pick a side and take a stand. They will be the downfall of us all.

 

DCC

[+sbell111]

This is a cheesy practice, mostly done by those looking to pad their numbers. Beta testing a hide is a completely different practice as the whole idea of a beta test is to see what the true finders experience will be. If you stand there (or sit there) and watch a buddy place a cache and before he places the camo over it you think "oh yeah, before you hide it, lemme sign the log", that's not a beta test, it's blatant numbers-padding, and you obviously don't get the point of this game. ...

I suspect that the practice that you describe happens very rarely.

And to those who use the "it doesn't hurt me" approach. Run a Google search and tell me how many good things have come out of apathy (other than you feeling "carefree" at the present moment).

 

Apathy is the refuge of those who don't have the conviction to pick a side and take a stand. They will be the downfall of us all.

This scenario is the perfect example of why apathy can be a perfectly acceptable position. The rare practice that you described affects absolutely no one. Please explain why any of us should care. How will this practice 'be the downfall of us all'? Edited November 6, 2007 by sbell111

[+TrailGators]

This is a cheesy practice, mostly done by those looking to pad their numbers. Beta testing a hide is a completely different practice as the whole idea of a beta test is to see what the true finders experience will be. If you stand there (or sit there) and watch a buddy place a cache and before he places the camo over it you think "oh yeah, before you hide it, lemme sign the log", that's not a beta test, it's blatant numbers-padding, and you obviously don't get the point of this game. If you're really that desperate to record your visit to this remote and beautiful location that you'll never have the chance to visit again... take some photos and post a note to the cache page telling people how great the place and the hide are.

 

And to those who use the "it doesn't hurt me" approach. Run a Google search and tell me how many good things have come out of apathy (other than you feeling "carefree" at the present moment).

 

Apathy is the refuge of those who don't have the conviction to pick a side and take a stand. They will be the downfall of us all.

 

DCC

Will you be the first person to answer this question?: Have you ever been with caching someone else when they found the cache and you didn't? Did you sign the logbook when you didn't actually "find" the cache?

 

P.S. I agree with your apathy statement 100%. We have way too much of that these days. The "anything goes" thing tries to undermine people's values for another set of values, which is having no values. In this case, my values are different than yours because I believe when you make it to the coordinates of a cache you can sign the logbook even if someone else actually found the cache. I value "location" in this game and I log all my adventures that take me to cool locations!

Edited November 6, 2007 by TrailGators

[+ArcherDragoon]

Hey,

 

I guess my answers are more to questions that have been posted by others and not the topic at hand...so here it is!!!

 

What do you think of these people logging "finds" where they note that they were there when the cache was placed. How is that a "find"? Should it qualify as a "find"? Did they have to actually hunt for it like every other "finder"?

 

What do the rest of you think?

 

I have done just that at times...buddy goes off, hides a cache and comes back and says find it. So, I go and try to find it (notice the "try to find it" part)...if I can't find it and I am in the right area, I expect to be heckled!!! If I am way off, then I helped the owner correct the error.

 

Let's see another issue...part of a group of cachers (all individual accounts) and a member of the group decides to hide a cache...yep, been there too. So, what to do??? That member is placing a cache, but it is clear it is his/her cache (not a group hide)...he/she wants credit for the hide...so, there during the hide, but it is not my hide...I will sign the log and claim the find (but I will note that I am not FTF...that is for the person that finds it after the cache gets listed).

 

Why??? Its the location, I was there, I found the cache (easier then most I would add)...whatever the case may be.

 

What is the difference if I sign the log and post a find...or wait till the cache is posted and sign the log and post a find (either way I wouldn't claim FTF and either way I was at the location)??? In the second case I just repeat everything that was already done...

 

So, there, I have choosen my side of the battle...thanks to Driver Carries Cache for pointing out the apathy.

And no, I am not being sarcastic...We all are welcome to our opinions. DCC spoke, I respect the opinion...it forced me to think about how I was "answering" the question!!!

 

This is a cheesy practice, mostly done by those looking to pad their numbers. Beta testing a hide is a completely different practice as the whole idea of a beta test is to see what the true finders experience will be. If you stand there (or sit there) and watch a buddy place a cache and before he places the camo over it you think "oh yeah, before you hide it, lemme sign the log", that's not a beta test, it's blatant numbers-padding, and you obviously don't get the point of this game. If you're really that desperate to record your visit to this remote and beautiful location that you'll never have the chance to visit again... take some photos and post a note to the cache page telling people how great the place and the hide are.

 

And to those who use the "it doesn't hurt me" approach. Run a Google search and tell me how many good things have come out of apathy (other than you feeling "carefree" at the present moment).

 

Apathy is the refuge of those who don't have the conviction to pick a side and take a stand. They will be the downfall of us all.

 

DCC

Will you be the first person to answer this question?: Have you ever been with caching someone else when they found the cache and you didn't? Did you sign the logbook when you didn't actually "find" the cache?

 

P.S. I agree with your apathy statement 100%. We have way too much of that these days. The "anything goes" thing tries to undermine people's values for another set of values, which is having no values. In this case, my values are different than yours because I believe when you make it to the coordinates of a cache you can sign the logbook even if someone else actually found the cache. I value "location" in this game and I log all my adventures that take me to cool locations!

 

While I am at it...let me answer more clearly!!!

 

Have you ever been caching with someone else when they found the cache and you didn't?

Yep

 

Did you sign the logbook when you didn't actually "find" the cache?

Yep...signed the log just as if "I" found the cache

 

Ok...that is my opinion and I am sticking with it.

 

Later,

ArcherDragoon

Edited November 6, 2007 by ArcherDragoon

[Mushtang]

This is a cheesy practice, mostly done by those looking to pad their numbers. Beta testing a hide is a completely different practice as the whole idea of a beta test is to see what the true finders experience will be. If you stand there (or sit there) and watch a buddy place a cache and before he places the camo over it you think "oh yeah, before you hide it, lemme sign the log", that's not a beta test, it's blatant numbers-padding, and you obviously don't get the point of this game. If you're really that desperate to record your visit to this remote and beautiful location that you'll never have the chance to visit again... take some photos and post a note to the cache page telling people how great the place and the hide are.

 

And to those who use the "it doesn't hurt me" approach. Run a Google search and tell me how many good things have come out of apathy (other than you feeling "carefree" at the present moment).

 

Apathy is the refuge of those who don't have the conviction to pick a side and take a stand. They will be the downfall of us all.

 

DCC

Who is "us"?

 

These people will be the downfall of:

Geocachers?

People that care about other people's numbers?

Overly dramatic forum posters?

[+Driver Carries Cache]

snip... for brevity...

Will you be the first person to answer this question?: Have you ever been with caching someone else when they found the cache and you didn't? Did you sign the logbook when you didn't actually "find" the cache?

 

P.S. I agree with your apathy statement 100%. We have way too much of that these days. The "anything goes" thing tries to undermine people's values for another set of values, which is having no values. In this case, my values are different than yours because I believe when you make it to the coordinates of a cache you can sign the logbook even if someone else actually found the cache. I value "location" in this game and I log all my adventures that take me to cool locations!

 

Sure, I'll give you my best and most honest answer. Almost all my finds have been in tandem with a lifelong friend and caching buddy.

 

>> If we're zeroed out at exactly the same location, say searching a tree stump and his fingers make the find before mine (even though we're probably knocking heads, we're so close together) it's a find.

 

>> If we're searching a wider area, like say a small forest clearing and I find the hide first, I'm going to back away and let him enjoy the hunt. Why would I want to ruin the pleasure of the find for him?

 

>> If I'm slow getting out of the car, cause I'm looking up something in my Palm, or calibrating GPS and he finds it without me... I wouldn't feel right logging it.

 

I can definitely say, the last thing I want to spend a day doing is searching for stuff and at every stop have somebody else yell "found it!" and never get the chance to make the find for yourself. That to me sounds like a lousy afternoon.

 

And in the case of hides... when we first started doing this, we'd discuss planned hides and ideas and such, but when he bounced all his ideas off me, maybe even showed me some potential containers... I'd never feel right claiming a find on those. Once I went on a hike with him knowing he was placing a cache. I stood there and watched, and then helped verify coordinates... how could I ever claim a find on that? To this day, I can still picture in my head exactly how and where that cache is hidden. Claiming a find on that would be the height of stupidity.

 

We've decided that future hides, methods, placements and locations are not topics for conversation among caching buddies... that is if we want a nice level playing field when it comes to finding each other's hides. An honest search is the true thrill of geocaching!

 

DCC

[+TrailGators]

I can definitely say, the last thing I want to spend a day doing is searching for stuff and at every stop have somebody else yell "found it!" and never get the chance to make the find for yourself. That to me sounds like a lousy afternoon.

I've cached with large groups and it is actually fun to see who will find the cache first. It's like a little contest at each cache. The winner is always very excited. It's like having a day of "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World!" I wouldn't want to do it everytime but it is fun sometimes! Everyone in the group logs the cache even though only one person found the cache. Edited November 6, 2007 by TrailGators

[+Driver Carries Cache]

This is a cheesy practice... etc.

Who is "us"?

 

These people will be the downfall of:

Geocachers?

People that care about other people's numbers?

Overly dramatic forum posters?

 

"Us" would be society as a whole.

 

It's not a problem specific to geocaching. It's just interesting to see it manifest itself here in something so simple. It really is a much larger and more complex societal issue.

 

And to all engaged in this discussion, my comments weren't aimed at anyone in specific. It just bothers me to see the head-in-the-sand mentality used. It's like saying "if I pretend it doesn't exist, it will go away". Has that ever worked?

 

DCC

[Mushtang]

This is a cheesy practice... etc.

Who is "us"?

 

These people will be the downfall of:

Geocachers?

People that care about other people's numbers?

Overly dramatic forum posters?

 

"Us" would be society as a whole.

 

It's not a problem specific to geocaching. It's just interesting to see it manifest itself here in something so simple. It really is a much larger and more complex societal issue.

 

And to all engaged in this discussion, my comments weren't aimed at anyone in specific. It just bothers me to see the head-in-the-sand mentality used. It's like saying "if I pretend it doesn't exist, it will go away". Has that ever worked?

 

DCC

There's a difference between a practice existing, and it being a problem.

 

We agree that people are logging caches they helped place as a Find. The practice exists. It's a problem to you, it's not a problem to me. Are either one of us pretending something doesn't exist?

 

And there's still no evidence that this will be the downfall of anyone.

[+TrailGators]

And there's still no evidence that this will be the downfall of anyone.

I think it might be the reason that the polar ice caps are melting at an alarming rate. All this heat from forum angst. Maybe Al Gore will chime in and give us his opinion....

[+Driver Carries Cache]

This is a cheesy practice... etc.

Who is "us"?

 

These people will be the downfall of:

Geocachers?

People that care about other people's numbers?

Overly dramatic forum posters?

 

"Us" would be society as a whole.

 

It's not a problem specific to geocaching. It's just interesting to see it manifest itself here in something so simple. It really is a much larger and more complex societal issue.

 

And to all engaged in this discussion, my comments weren't aimed at anyone in specific. It just bothers me to see the head-in-the-sand mentality used. It's like saying "if I pretend it doesn't exist, it will go away". Has that ever worked?

 

DCC

There's a difference between a practice existing, and it being a problem.

 

We agree that people are logging caches they helped place as a Find. The practice exists. It's a problem to you, it's not a problem to me. Are either one of us pretending something doesn't exist?

 

And there's still no evidence that this will be the downfall of anyone.

 

Again, run a google search on Apathy. You will not find anything positive that ever came of it. In fact, the results of apathy are usually very negative. I was speaking in terms of a philosophical concept. I don't think that apathy in terms of geocaching will bring about the end of the world. It just makes me wonder about folk who think that way in general.

 

DCC

[+TrailGators]

This is a cheesy practice... etc.

Who is "us"?

 

These people will be the downfall of:

Geocachers?

People that care about other people's numbers?

Overly dramatic forum posters?

 

"Us" would be society as a whole.

 

It's not a problem specific to geocaching. It's just interesting to see it manifest itself here in something so simple. It really is a much larger and more complex societal issue.

 

And to all engaged in this discussion, my comments weren't aimed at anyone in specific. It just bothers me to see the head-in-the-sand mentality used. It's like saying "if I pretend it doesn't exist, it will go away". Has that ever worked?

 

DCC

There's a difference between a practice existing, and it being a problem.

 

We agree that people are logging caches they helped place as a Find. The practice exists. It's a problem to you, it's not a problem to me. Are either one of us pretending something doesn't exist?

 

And there's still no evidence that this will be the downfall of anyone.

 

Again, run a google search on Apathy. You will not find anything positive that ever came of it. In fact, the results of apathy are usually very negative. I was speaking in terms of a philosophical concept. I don't think that apathy in terms of geocaching will bring about the end of the world. It just makes me wonder about folk who think that way in general.

 

DCC

People that are apathetic won't care about apathy...

[+sbell111]

Personally, I don't care to run a Google search on apathy.

[+Driver Carries Cache]

People that are apathetic won't care about apathy...

 

Personally, I don't care to run a Google search on apathy.

 

No apathy on my part when it comes to clever humor... I love it

 

Thanks!

 

DCC

[+ArcherDragoon]

So...if the apathetic did actually google apathy...

 

Oh, I did google apathy just for fun...yeah, I said fun

 

Positive (???): There is a rapper that goes by the name Apathy...

[Mushtang]

This is a cheesy practice... etc.

Who is "us"?

 

These people will be the downfall of:

Geocachers?

People that care about other people's numbers?

Overly dramatic forum posters?

 

"Us" would be society as a whole.

 

It's not a problem specific to geocaching. It's just interesting to see it manifest itself here in something so simple. It really is a much larger and more complex societal issue.

 

And to all engaged in this discussion, my comments weren't aimed at anyone in specific. It just bothers me to see the head-in-the-sand mentality used. It's like saying "if I pretend it doesn't exist, it will go away". Has that ever worked?

 

DCC

There's a difference between a practice existing, and it being a problem.

 

We agree that people are logging caches they helped place as a Find. The practice exists. It's a problem to you, it's not a problem to me. Are either one of us pretending something doesn't exist?

 

And there's still no evidence that this will be the downfall of anyone.

 

Again, run a google search on Apathy. You will not find anything positive that ever came of it. In fact, the results of apathy are usually very negative. I was speaking in terms of a philosophical concept. I don't think that apathy in terms of geocaching will bring about the end of the world. It just makes me wonder about folk who think that way in general.

 

DCC

I did a Google search and found that there is a group of people that enjoy counting how many frosted flakes are in a box. I also found that a geocacher by the name of Driver Carries Cache doesn't care if this group counts the cereal or not. Apparently you're apathetic about it, and therefore apathy is manifesting itself in something even more simple than geocaching.

 

Tell me again, how is it a bad thing that you don't care about something like cereal being counted? Can I assume you're apathetic in general?

 

How is it a bad thing that I don't care about Finds being claimed on a cache that the person watched being hidden?

 

Just because Googling "apathy" doesn't turn up anything positive doesn't mean that apathy towards something minor will have bad results.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Mushtang

[me_chris]

It's not about the numbers. Who cares if they want to count it as a find?

 

Now, if we all got paid by Groundspeak based on how many caches we have found, then I would care... []

[+Driver Carries Cache]

How is it a bad thing that I don't care about Finds being claimed on a cache that the person watched being hidden?

 

Obviously you do care, as you continue posting.

 

Alas, I've no time to explain it further... thanks for playing.

 

DCC

[+tozainamboku]

This is a cheesy practice... etc.

Who is "us"?

 

These people will be the downfall of:

Geocachers?

People that care about other people's numbers?

Overly dramatic forum posters?

 

"Us" would be society as a whole.

 

It's not a problem specific to geocaching. It's just interesting to see it manifest itself here in something so simple. It really is a much larger and more complex societal issue.

 

And to all engaged in this discussion, my comments weren't aimed at anyone in specific. It just bothers me to see the head-in-the-sand mentality used. It's like saying "if I pretend it doesn't exist, it will go away". Has that ever worked?

 

DCC

There's a difference between a practice existing, and it being a problem.

 

We agree that people are logging caches they helped place as a Find. The practice exists. It's a problem to you, it's not a problem to me. Are either one of us pretending something doesn't exist?

 

And there's still no evidence that this will be the downfall of anyone.

 

Again, run a google search on Apathy. You will not find anything positive that ever came of it. In fact, the results of apathy are usually very negative. I was speaking in terms of a philosophical concept. I don't think that apathy in terms of geocaching will bring about the end of the world. It just makes me wonder about folk who think that way in general.

 

DCC

I did a Google search and found that there is a group of people that enjoy counting how many frosted flakes are in a box. I also found that a geocacher by the name of Driver Carries Cache doesn't care if this group counts the cereal or not. Apparently you're apathetic about it, and therefore apathy is manifesting itself in something even more simple than geocaching.

 

Tell me again, how is it a bad thing that you don't care about something like cereal being counted? Can I assume you're apathetic in general?

 

How is it a bad thing that I don't care about Finds being claimed on a cache that the person watched being hidden?

 

Just because Googling "apathy" doesn't turn up anything positive doesn't mean that apathy towards something minor will have bad results.

It obviously matters to some people that others aren't using the 'found it' log in what the first group sees as the obviously correct way. It is similar to the way some groups in 16th and 17th England felt that the Church of England was apathetic about the decay of morality that they perceived at that time. This group cared quite a bit about what other people were doing even though it didn't affect them. TPTB (in England) discriminated against these good people by ignoring their demand for reform of the Church. Some emigrated to New England where they established a colony in Massachusetts. They later accused some people of practicing witchcraft and a number of innocent people were executed. I don't believe that anyone will be executed for logging a find at a cache that helped hide - but I am not apathetic that some people are sounding a bit like puritans.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Same old argument, different reason.

[Mushtang]

How is it a bad thing that I don't care about Finds being claimed on a cache that the person watched being hidden?

 

Obviously you do care, as you continue posting.

 

Alas, I've no time to explain it further... thanks for playing.

 

DCC

Yup, you've right. I keep posting, therefore I care that someone logged a find on a cache they saw being placed. I can't get anything past you.

 

Okay, I guess you're done then?

[+simpjkee]

I would question the cache owner more than the finders. Personally, I have some good friends through geocaching I don't dare give them hints. I even placed a cache and the chatted on the phone with friends about caching and purposely not brought it up that I placed one. To log a find while the owner is placing it doesn't seem right to me as the owner or the finder. But hey, people all do what the want so who cares.

I bet that many of the owners in question feel exactly the same as you.

 

That being said, consider this scenario. You are visiting from out of town. I tell you that I found a great spot for a cache and invite you to tag along. We hike out to a location that really is perfect for a cache. I ask you to sit tight for a few minutes while I wander off. A few minutes later, I return and give you a set of coords. You take off and find where I hid the cache.

 

Later that day, I submit the cache to GC.com and it's listed. Should you log your find online?

 

I would ask to be co owner. Like this cache placed by sbell111 and simpjkee. If you weren't cool with that, then I'm not sure if I would log it or not. If I did, I certainly voluntarily remove myself from the running for FTF. No way I'dd call that a FTF by me.

[+TrailGators]

I would question the cache owner more than the finders. Personally, I have some good friends through geocaching I don't dare give them hints. I even placed a cache and the chatted on the phone with friends about caching and purposely not brought it up that I placed one. To log a find while the owner is placing it doesn't seem right to me as the owner or the finder. But hey, people all do what the want so who cares.

I bet that many of the owners in question feel exactly the same as you.

 

That being said, consider this scenario. You are visiting from out of town. I tell you that I found a great spot for a cache and invite you to tag along. We hike out to a location that really is perfect for a cache. I ask you to sit tight for a few minutes while I wander off. A few minutes later, I return and give you a set of coords. You take off and find where I hid the cache.

 

Later that day, I submit the cache to GC.com and it's listed. Should you log your find online?

 

I would ask to be co owner. Like this cache placed by sbell111 and simpjkee. If you weren't cool with that, then I'm not sure if I would log it or not. If I did, I certainly voluntarily remove myself from the running for FTF. No way I'dd call that a FTF by me.

It's been stated several times in this thread that beta-testers never claim FTF. They also wait to log the cache until after the FTF has logged the cache.

[+Team GeoBlast]

Personally, I don't care to run a Google search on apathy.

 

Now, that was pretty funny.

[+Driver Carries Cache]

How is it a bad thing that I don't care about Finds being claimed on a cache that the person watched being hidden?

 

Obviously you do care, as you continue posting.

 

Alas, I've no time to explain it further... thanks for playing.

 

DCC

Yup, you've right. I keep posting, therefore I care that someone logged a find on a cache they saw being placed. I can't get anything past you.

 

Okay, I guess you're done then?

 

No, just thought it was funny that in post #4 you told us "Its just not that important to me", and now you're telling us you care. Have we changed your mind?

 

Am I done? No need to get snippy... I thought folks were having a discussion?

 

DCC

[+TrailGators]

Am I done? No need to get snippy... I thought folks were having a discussion?

DCC, people are having a discussion. He is trying to provoke you into an argument rather than a friendly discussion. Ignore it!

 

The point I was making is we could analyze everyone's finds and I bet everyone had looged a cache that they haven't found. The point is the fun and adventure and getting out to see cool spots and then logging your adventure. I think a lot of people miss the point.

Edited November 6, 2007 by TrailGators

[4wheelin_fool]

so what if they logged it as a find? Edited November 7, 2007 by 4wheelin_fool

[Tup]

ok quick question, what's the difference of being there when it's hidden and logging it , or going out searching for 5 mins and making a call to the owner for help so you can log it? I don't really see a difference at all...(time not withstanding, maybe you should have gone along for the hide in the first place). So, to me it doesn't matter at all. I cache my way you cache yours and quite honestly it doesn't matter to me if ya like it or not....lol. Example... I was out looking for a place to hide a cache when I stumbled upon a cache already hidden. I signed the log went home and found out it was a 6 part cache, perhaps I should take that off my found list, but I can't find the "blindly stumbled into it " choice. Maybe, we should all just agree to disagree and let it at that....ahhhhh but there's the rub....can we

Edited November 7, 2007 by Tup

[Mushtang]

How is it a bad thing that I don't care about Finds being claimed on a cache that the person watched being hidden?

 

Obviously you do care, as you continue posting.

 

Alas, I've no time to explain it further... thanks for playing.

 

DCC

Yup, you've right. I keep posting, therefore I care that someone logged a find on a cache they saw being placed. I can't get anything past you.

 

Okay, I guess you're done then?

 

No, just thought it was funny that in post #4 you told us "Its just not that important to me"

Yup, in that post I said that other peoples numbers aren't important enough to me to let it bother me how they logged their finds.

 

, and now you're telling us you care.

I did? Where? I think it was you that told me that I cared because I was posting, and then I tried to follow the logic, as though continuing to post somehow meant that I've changed my mind. I couldn't make that connection.

 

Have we changed your mind?

I've been very consistent in what I've been saying this entire thread. Unlike some.

 

Am I done? No need to get snippy... I thought folks were having a discussion?

You dismissed me with a "thanks for playing" so I was trying to find out if you were done with the discussion. No snippiness intended.

[Mushtang]

Am I done? No need to get snippy... I thought folks were having a discussion?

DCC, people are having a discussion. He is trying to provoke you into an argument rather than a friendly discussion. Ignore it!

Calm down trailblazers. Nobody is trying to provoke anybody. I was only trying to figure out DCC's position and follow the logic. It was a friendly discussion as far as I was concerned. No need to try and start something.

 

No need to report posts again either. So far I haven't seen anything that violates any guidelines.