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Grave difficulty


drsolly

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Today, I visited two graves.

 

While I was there, I felt I was intruding on someone who was laying flowers on another grave, and also when I saw the grave of a young child, Iit was a downer. Even the inscription "Safe in the arms of Jesus" was a downer. The child isn't safe, the child is dead.

 

And I'm wondering - why do cache setters want us to wander around a graveyard looking for some obscure grave?

 

I can understand it if it's someone famous, that otherwise you wouldn't know was buried here. Or if the inscription is unusual, or interesting. But as far as I can see, the only point, in 99% of cases, is to collect a number from a place that isn't likely to change.

 

If the idea is to get me to see the church, then maybe some feature of the church itself would be better?

Edited by drsolly
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I guess its just a case of us all being individuals, and as such we all have different acceptabilities and sense of conscience.

 

Like you I am quite apprehensive on such data gathering.

 

I was going to say that I hate the final cache being placed in the church grounds but having done 2 recently one I hated the placement and commented as such in my logs, the other I thought reasonably acceptable.

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It's a matter of personal conscience. Many people don't feel comfortable playing a game in a cemetery. Others, myself among them, find cemeteries quiet, peaceful places where there are opportunities for reflection. Providing it's done in an appropriate manner I don't have any problem with obtaining clues from graves. One of our caches does just that, and you seemed to enjoy it ;).

 

Let's face it, many of our cemeteries receive few enough visitors as it is. In fact, this was reported on the BBC only the other day:

Graveyards are not being used enough for their potential lesiure [sic] benefit, a government advisory body has said.
The report was also on TV, and at least one council is to install a cafe and other leisure facilities in their cemeteries.

 

The usual rule applies: if you don't feel comfortable seeking a cache, don't do it. There are plenty more ;).

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I love wandering around graveyards, they are so full of history and I find them interesting. It is possible to look around and maintain respect while you do so.

 

I have used a headstone for a clue to my first cache but it is right next to a public footpath that runs through the graveyard so walkers are going to look as they go past anyway. If there are mourners placing flowers they are likely to be so wrapped up in their thoughts and emotions that they are unlikely to notice anybody else there, if you feel uncomfortable it wouldn't take long to wait for them to move on.

 

As for the child's grave, children die and if their parents feel that they are safer wherever they have gone then it's their right to say so on a headstone and surely not for you to judge?

Edited by Team Skully
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And I'm wondering - why do cache setters want us to wander around a graveyard looking for some obscure grave?

I don't think that cache setters can exclude this type of task just because you don't enjoy it. I would guess that most people find such places quite interesting. If we visit a church, we'll often have a stroll around the graveyard too, looking at the headstones and getting a feel for the local names and the people of the past. Along with the peaceful atmosphere, it's a relaxing way to spend a few minutes and I see no problem with being given a particular grave to spot.

 

It's obvious from the cache description that a graveyard visit is part of the tour: that really begs the question of why did you select this cache if you don't like such places? It looks a bit unreasonable to complain that "I've never really understood the point of a graveyard search. It's not interesting, and sometimes it can be a bit depressing,". It's not interesting TO YOU, so why did you decide to go ahead with the cache and then complain that it took you to where it said it was going to take you?

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The general English (anglo-saxon) attittude to death and burial is strangely at odds with much of the rest of the UK and certainly with the rest of Europe - which is generally a rather 'matter of fact' attitude. So the English generally treat all burial sites with an extraordinairy mystical reverence. Moving / removing or re-using a UK burial site is invariably a 'no-no', and it is rare to come across grave stones which are merely the subject of casual secular interest: The Putney Stone Garden cache is one such site.

 

I have done one cache in Berkshire which was placed near an open unused and dug grave inside some rhodo bushes in a public park - a little bizarre.

 

I have no problem whatsoever in visiting burial sites, grave yards and gardens of remembrance. I now know where Tony Hancock's ashes ended up - and I was a trifle surprised. Near Hever Castle, I now know where Caron Keating of Blue Peter fame finally rests: she'd be turning in her grave at the recent antics on that programme.

 

Some cachers deliberately bring you to graves and memorial benches which are personal to them: no problem with that. Indeed some TBs do that such as 'Remembrance' which I currently hold. No problem there either.

 

I have discovered much from visiting places of burial and (almost) without exception they have been interesting. I for instance know more about the Titanic as a result of geo-caching, and more particularly why 'X Marks the Spot'!

 

I have set a cache on IONA which deliberately takes you to three unmarked and recent graves: no hints here - but there is a good reason for it. (The folk on IONA are far more 'matter-of-fact')

 

I fully understand that some persons have sensibilities different from mine - and more in accordiance with the English norm. That's part of life's rich tapestry.

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I've just got to work following a visit to a local graveyard to take some photos. They can be strangely interesting & peaceful places.

I also recently placed a cache that involves visiting a grave, however that is someone of interest that not many people realise had been buired there. This makes it interesting and the ladies tidying the church and graveyard seems happy that people were looking around their graveyard.

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We have done a few that made us feel uncomfortable but many more where it felt OK.

 

One was in a memorial garden with perfectly tended lawns and all the stones were obviously in use the cache was hidden at the back of the garden we certainly felt like we should not be there

the other we walked down the path but could not see the name after a large search we eventually found it but there was no way to get there without walking over graves again an uncomfortable experience that coulod of been avoided by them choosing as stated above a path side grave stone.

 

and yes we did mention it in the log

 

I would say that we have done about 20 or 30 others which were fine, churches are usually masterpieces of design and a few moments quiet reflection on just how long you are dead compared to how long you are alive never does anyone harm.

 

Lynn is researching her family tree an activity that includes a lot more wandering arround graveyards than geo caching does and one that i believe is a bit more mainstream.

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Gravestones are there to be read and remember the deceased.... otherwise why bother errect them? Because of this I have no problems when it comes to wandering around graveyards.

 

We all just need to use a bit of common sense when visiting. If you turn up and you feel uncomfortable because there are relatives about, then leave it for another day. If there are real issues with the hide, report it to one of the mods.

 

There are some really well thought out caches which use graveyards, and each has to be taken on it's own merits. I have yet to visit one I felt was poorly set out.

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It seems you were upset by the quote of "safe in the arms of jesus" this means a lot to those of the Christian faith, the belief is that there is a life after death and that we will meet our loved ones there. Death is not the end but the beginning. Now if you choose to believe that then thats fine, if you dont then thats fine as well.

As for the grave being of a child and being a downer well that has to be your own personal feelings on it. The death of a child is sad, but at least this child had someone who loved them and wanted a place they can/could go to remember them. 100s of children die without this type of love and its those you should feel sad for thats the real downer.

How do you know that the person who placed the cache wasnt a family member and wanted the childs grave to be visited.

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Today, I visited two graves....

 

Why? You clearly didn't have any fun, didn't feel any peace, and don't enjoy this.

 

Yesterday, I also put my foot on something that looked solid, but then I sank in up to my knee, and I climbed a hill smothered in pricklebushes, and spent the next hour or so enduring the occasional prickle that had worked its way into my clothes.

 

And that was just yesterday. On other days, I've been stung by angry wasps in two separate occasions, and fallen bareskinned onto a clump of nettles.

 

There's aspects of this game that, surely, no-one enjoys. But we do it anyway, because overall the plusses outweigh the minuses. I do the graveyard visits because even though there's the occasional downer, I don't usually feel that I'm intruding - as someone pointed out, the inscriptions are put there for people to read.

 

My question was, what is the point of getting me to hunt through a churchyard full of graves, for one particular grave that isn't of any intrinsic interest?

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My question was, what is the point of getting me to hunt through a churchyard full of graves, for one particular grave that isn't of any intrinsic interest?

Well - and please don't take this the wrong way - what's the point of the virtual clues on Chartridge Charabanc tour? What intrinsic interest do they have?

 

Many caches use graves, information boards, postbox and lamppost numbers etc etc. Some of them are very interesting, some of them are not. But the point of all of them is to derive some numbers to enable you to complete the cache.

 

I guess that that particular grave was chosen principally because the service number alone can be used to complete the coords, thus meaning you had to find only one grave.

 

And since it's a war death then the likelihood is that it's a CWGC standard memorial so should be very easy to find. In fact, the information is listed on the CWGC website, including where the memorial is in the churchayrd ;).

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My question was, what is the point of getting me to hunt through a churchyard full of graves, for one particular grave that isn't of any intrinsic interest?

Sounds like it was a nice enough place to spend some time: perhaps you could have had a look around the church after picking up the clue. Maybe it would have added a little to the cache had the grave been of someone more notable: but it's good that we are made to take an interest in the less spectacular. Earlier logs seem to suggest that the cache is quite a good one.

 

It boils down to that you (unusually) don't really enjoy this type of hunt. Fair enough, although I still wonder why you chose to take on this cache which clearly warns that you'll be visiting a graveyard.

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It boils down to that you (unusually) don't really enjoy this type of hunt. Fair enough, although I still wonder why you chose to take on this cache which clearly warns that you'll be visiting a graveyard.

 

Quite! There's no rule that says you must do every cache that pops up on your route! I certainly don't, does it bother me ... nope!

 

Some prefer not to do particular types of cache, and concentrate their efforts elsewhere.

 

This is a diverse game, room for everyone ... put it down to experience and move along to the next one!

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My first cache hide was a church/graveyard cache. The Vicar was very keen for me to hide the cache under a tomb cover where there was a gap ;) I pointed out as it was a game many children participate in, it might be a little creepy for the youngsters (although I suspected it'd be the adults who are most creeped out)

 

Reading the headstones is an act of remembrance and some of them show remarkable skill in their carving and design. I've no problem with cemetery caches. The dead "rarely" bother the living.

 

The caches we do are all about personal choice as has been pointed out again and again. If you don't like the location, don't do it. However, be tolerant of others who do not share the same phobias or social conditioning.

 

Cust.

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I have set caches using info gathered from graves, but since the death of my father, I'd think twice about this. I get the feeling people are happier with memorials rather than graves, so would try to use these instead.

 

I thought a grave marker/stone was a memorial to the person buried so see no difference.

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While I was there, I felt I was intruding on someone who was laying flowers on another grave, and also when I saw the grave of a young child, Iit was a downer. Even the inscription "Safe in the arms of Jesus" was a downer. The child isn't safe, the child is dead.

 

 

Seems to me you got spooked by the inscription you read. I mean if you look at death as being the end rather than the beginning, then yes death is depressing.

There iss a fantastic place near me I was thinking of using as part of a multi, but chickenpooooo said I was sick and that if I used the location then people would get very very very upset and cry about it. I never did use the location, but I might if it's gonna cause such controversy ;)

 

erm, where's my mighty stead Binky ;)

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We're digressing slightly, but anyway...

 

The presence of a monument in a churchyard/cemetery isn't always an indication that there's a body beneath. Many are simply memorials - the person died elsewhere, or it otherwise wasn't possible to bury them there. This is particularly true of the type of memorial mentioned in this cache.

 

Conversely, the absence of a memorial doesn't mean that there isn't a burial. The provision of what are better termed headstones is a relatively recent thing. Even less than a hundred years ago the cost of a headstone - and the subsequent maintenance - would be beyond what most people could afford. So any patch of grass you walk over in a churchyard/cemetery to get to a particular memorial is likely to have burials beneath.

 

As always, you make your own choices...

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... and I climbed a hill smothered in pricklebushes, and spent the next hour or so enduring the occasional prickle that had worked its way into my clothes.

 

Oh really? shame! What sort of evil people would set a cache like that? ;)

 

I love visiting graveyards. Perhaps I am just weird, or perhaps it's my archaeological training, but I have always liked to explore graveyards from way back before they ever thought of inventing caching. I don't have a problem with clues derived from graveyards or even caches hidden in graveyards (but would draw the line at caches hidden on or in graves!). I would also be inclined to keep away from the more modern parts of graveyards where your treasure hunting may offend somebody else's mourning.

 

Playing devil's avocado for a while, I took drsolly to be saying why take somebody into a graveyard to look at an arbitary tombstone of no particular note? If it's abribary, then why the need to intrude into a graveyard? I think that's probably a fair point, if you believe that a graveyard is a special place worthy of particular respect. It may not especially bother me, but I think I can see where he's coming from.

 

... but hey, on the other hand... everybody loves a lynching... I'll just fetch my rope ;)

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My question was, what is the point of getting me to hunt through a churchyard full of graves, for one particular grave that isn't of any intrinsic interest?

 

I must admit that I have set at least ONE cache where a seeker has to find "one particular grave that isn't of any intrinsic interest".

 

Why? Simply because it's not an easy one to find and that's part of the cache make-up!

 

Otherwise, a bit OT, I have no problems with parts of caches being in graveyards but I do appreciate that it's not everyones cup of tea!

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I don't have a problem with cemeteries being used as a place where cache setters direct their cache finders to see a particularly interesting monument of someone famous or which marks an historical event, in order to collect information from the inscription thereon.

Indeed, the Government and Local Government are actively seeking to improve graveyards to encourage the public to visit these places as they are seen as green open spaces to be used for the purpose of recreation.

That is not to say that they intend us to go along with a football or a frisbee.

Improving our cemeteries is long overdue and we look forward to being able to visit them without having to battle through overgrown vegetation caused by of years of neglect.

I do however think that the placing of physical cache containers in or near any grave or monument is going too far and we should not consider this type of location suitable for Geocaching.

We do not allow cache placement in dry stone walls because we are well aware that the walls can become damaged and weakened by overeager cache finders, to the point of collapse.

Many cemeteries contain gravestones and monuments which are not particularly sound and any disturbance is likely to cause damage.

It is no argument to say you would like visitors to visit your grave, unless it was for a reason of interest. Clocking up another find for a cacher isn't what I would wish to be remembered for.

Let us place final / physical caches outside graveyards.

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...My question was, what is the point of getting me to hunt through a churchyard full of graves, for one particular grave that isn't of any intrinsic interest?

Fair enough.

 

Think backwards. Maybe you are dead right and it's not about the one grave. It just happens to make a puzzle work or to have a cache at all, that was the general location that worked best. The larger picture may be just to draw attention to the cemetary to begin with. Any one grave in that light doesn't matter. It was the larger surroundings.

 

Just a guess. I have never been looking for a cache where I felt intrusive and if I did, I'd probably leave.

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I enjoy wandering round church yards and grave yards for a number of reasons, usually a good time for quiet reflection and often historically interesting.

 

I must admit I find the idea of graveyard hides just for the sake of it to be quite intrusive, but then as I've visited a number of cemetary caches, my very first cache included, it would be hypocritical of me to say I think they should be banned. Particularly as they've taken me to some lovely peaceful or historic spots.

 

I think therefore its back to the old argument, each to his own and if you are looking for a cache which you feel is too intrusive or don't feel its sensitively placed, just walk away, Renee...

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a good time for quiet reflection and often historically interesting.

Graveyards and cemeterys are of great value in helping us to gain a better understanding of ourselves, our history, and what we can learn from it. A couple of years ago we took the kids to the (Cannock Chase Military Cemetery), not because we know anyone buried there, or because we were geocaching, but simply to reflect, and to teach the kids more than they probably learn in a month of schooling. Death is part of life's experience, and we need to embrace that.

 

And, we did a cache last week that involved a local graveyard visit. It was not an active graveyard (latest death seemed to be in the 1800s) and we were 'happy' to wander around reading the headstones for almost an hour. But as other people have said, if you feel uncomfortable in graveyards, don't visit them...

 

;):):):):);) And let's all cheer up - this thread is getting a bit :)

Edited by pollys.lot
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I have done caches in and using graveyards and have no problem with them. I find graveyards very interesting and as said peacfull places. It makes me feel awkward walking over someone so I do my best to walk around and respect the place.

I found Slaves grave in Bristol facinating(although I couldn't finish it that day} and the cemetry at High rock, Bridgnorth is beutiful.

Alan

Edited by Gruntyv8
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I wonder if any dearly departed cachers have left co-ordinates inscribed into their own grave stones as part of the ultimate multi-cache?

It won't be long........

Can see it now... a cache by Ed Stone :blink:

 

J

 

Wow...that would be the puzzle cache to end all puzzle caches....for a geocacher to work out what's the true FINAL location!

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I wonder if any dearly departed cachers have left co-ordinates inscribed into their own grave stones as part of the ultimate multi-cache?

Maintenance might be a problem though :unsure:

Athough there are a surprising number of people in this world who think that that sort of thing is possible. (:ph34r: too)

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