The vacation rule

[+GeoCRAt]

Hi from Dubai,

 

I would like to suggest the option of an "unmaintained cache", particularly in countries where caches are few and far between. While I understand the reason behind the vacation rule, i.e. that you cannot place a cache outside of your general caching area to allow you to properly maintain the cache, I feel this may need to be reconsidered.

 

For example, I was fortunate to travel to Morocco, Phuket (an island, part of Thailand), Jordan and Bahrain this year, each of which has around 10 caches (across the WHOLE country). I really would have liked to find more caches, and even hide a cache or two of my own. We found so many lovely places, to which a cache in the location would have attracted more cachers.

 

Granted, there may be situations where the cache is found, muggled, and the contents left lying about, but hopefully those occurrences should be few. In such a case the owner could just disable the cache from his home country. YES, I know, what about the remains of the cache? Something that will remain a problem.

 

I would be interested to know others' comments on this issue. Hopefully I can place a cache or two the next time I am in Bahrain.

 

Cheers from sunny Dubai,

 

GeoCRAt.

(hoping that I have chosen the correct forum for this comment)

[+briansnat]

I think we should leave the hiding to the locals.

[+ZSandmann]

Problem is that most vacation caches start their life as a shampoo bottle or something even less water tight and end their life as a shampoo bottle lying on a beach, or in a park, etc. If you would really like to hide a cache in the areas you mentioned look up the names of the people that hid the caches you found there and ask if they would maintain the cache for you between your visits. Unmaintained caches can, have, and will give geocachers a black eye when someone in the area finds them and complains.

[magellan315]

I used to live a city that relied heavily on tourism and until the no vacation cache rule went into effect caches placed by tourists were a problem. Containers were not very waterproof, were placed on private property, and quickly became litter.

Edited November 1, 2007 by magellan315

[+Quiggle]

Here are two recent threads you might find helpful:

• Planting Caches while traveling, Yea or Nay?
  
• What is so wrong with vacation caches
  

[+Renegade Knight]

It's how this activity got started, the idea still has some merit.

 

However I think it would need to be combined with another cache type. The new cache type would be a CRM cache. A CRM cache is a Cache Rescume Mission. Any cache that has been destroyed, abandoned, unadopted, or who's final disposition is not ascertained would upon archival create a CRM Cache. A one time cache that would have cachers go collect the cache remains. Once collected the CRM cache is archived.

 

The probem with a vacation cache isn't so much the low maintanence as it is the ultimate litter. Solve the problem via another method like a CRM cache and people can go back to placing caches in cache poor areas.

 

Where there is an active local community who place a lot of caches there is no need for seed caches.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[+Too Tall John]

It's how this activity got started, the idea still has some merit.

 

However I think it would need to be combined with another cache type. The new cache type would be a CRM cache. A CRM cache is a Cache Rescume Mission. Any cache that has been destroyed, abandoned, unadopted, or who's final disposition is not ascertained would upon archival create a CRM Cache. A one time cache that would have cachers go collect the cache remains. Once collected the CRM cache is archived.

 

The probem with a vacation cache isn't so much the low maintanence as it is the ultimate litter. Solve the problem via another method like a CRM cache and people can go back to placing caches in cache poor areas.

 

Where there is an active local community who place a lot of caches there is no need for seed caches.

Ooh... I like this idea...

 

Vacation caches would do tend to generate CRM's, except there's no such thing officially.

 

Imagine, in addition to FTF hounds, we'd have CRM hounds! Geolitter wouldn't stand a chance!

[+Team Crime Scene]

 

Phuket (an island, part of Thailand)

 

I think I've been there....

[+Kealia]

It's how this activity got started, the idea still has some merit.

 

However I think it would need to be combined with another cache type. The new cache type would be a CRM cache. A CRM cache is a Cache Rescume Mission. Any cache that has been destroyed, abandoned, unadopted, or who's final disposition is not ascertained would upon archival create a CRM Cache. A one time cache that would have cachers go collect the cache remains. Once collected the CRM cache is archived.

 

The probem with a vacation cache isn't so much the low maintanence as it is the ultimate litter. Solve the problem via another method like a CRM cache and people can go back to placing caches in cache poor areas.

 

Where there is an active local community who place a lot of caches there is no need for seed caches.

 

That's actually one of the better ideas I've seen come out of these forums in quite a while.

My initial reaction is always the same as the group who sees vacation caches as an issue, but this could have some merit.

 

The one thing it doesn't fix though is initial permission issues. Usually the locals know the rules better than those on vacation.

Edited November 1, 2007 by kealia

[+wimseyguy]

Why should we limit the relaxation of the guidelines to far off lands with minimal geocaching activity? I'm sure lots of people travel from far off to NC to visit our mountains and beaches. Why not let them hide some more caches for the locals to find?

 

1. They won't be able to maintain them.

2. They probably aren't aware of any local policies or guidelines.

3. They probably don't care what happens locally long term.

 

Nah, bad idea. Leave the guideline the way it is.

 

We all started out with cache sparse areas, and the more people start caching, the more caches will get placed, the more people will start caching and around it goes.....

[+Scare Force One]

If you cant be there to change the log book or restock the cache it will simply fall into disrepair and no one want to spend 3 hours looking for a peice of crap.

 

~.~ Scare Force One

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Why not contact a local cacher in the area where you want to place a cache and see if they will be the official owner of the cache after you place the physical container?

 

You get your wish of not having to have any further responsibility and the community gets a cache that's actually maintained in accordance with the guidelines.

[+Renegade Knight]

Why not contact a local cacher in the area where you want to place a cache and see if they will be the official owner of the cache after you place the physical container? ...

 

If local cachers were actually placing caches they would probably have been happy to spend their time finding caches.

 

In areas where caching has not caught on, there is nobody at all to maintain caches.

[+Seasoned Warrior]

I thought that Virtual Caches were the solution to that problem. With Virtuals you could make it fun to find things about a a very specific area and then have reporting guidlines to claim the cache.

[+sTeamTraen]

It's true that there can appear to be a chicken-and-egg "problem" in some places, but this is only really a problem for tourists who don't have enough caches to find while on vacation. If there are no local cachers, they don't have a problem.

[+eigengott]

For example, I was fortunate to travel to Morocco, Phuket (an island, part of Thailand), Jordan and Bahrain this year, each of which has around 10 caches (across the WHOLE country). I really would have liked to find more caches

 

Maybe you should choose your travel destinations a bit wiser and pick countries which have a higher cache density?

[+StarBrand]

I don't think any changes are needed.

 

There are many problems with vacation caches. Maintenance, removal, changing permission, construction, broken containers, muggles, camo coverings, new logs, remove bad items, geo-trails, environmental changes, seasonal issues etc.....

 

If you are in no position to take care of it then we all get a black eye.

[+tozainamboku]

I thought that Virtual Caches were the solution to that problem. With Virtuals you could make it fun to find things about a a very specific area and then have reporting guidlines to claim the cache.

I don't see virtuals as a solution for placing caches while on vacation. While virtuals could originally be placed while on vacation, it didn't take long for TPTB to extend the no vacation cache rule to virtuals. First of all, most virtuals did need a local owner who could check out problems with the virtual (e.g., a sign missing or the site temporarily off-limits). In addition, at the time, a virtual placement prevented a physical cache from being placed within .1 miles. It was unfair for a visitor to come and place a virtual that prevented a local from placing a physical cache later on. The real reason why virtuals were a poor choice for a vacation cache is that people placed virtuals for something you'd probably go see as a tourist anyway. A good virtual would take you someplace you wouldn't have gone to otherwise or at least would point out a feature or fact that you wouldn't know without visiting. I suspect that many vacation virtuals were just to take your picture in front of some famous landmark that you may very well have visited and had your picture taken anyhow. A local might take you to a best kept secret or at least to a spot near some otherwise famous landmark that had some information that was not widely known.

[+Planet]

Virtuals don't get approved anymore. They're grandfathered. For a long time.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I thought that Virtual Caches were the solution to that problem. With Virtuals you could make it fun to find things about a a very specific area and then have reporting guidlines to claim the cache.

 

Ummm... I visit and cache a popular tourist area. Several virtuals by out-of-towners.

But: The flags you are supposed to count have been gone for a few years. Doesn't stop anyone from logging it. (And the owner doesn't really care what you e-mail her.) Likewise: Count the Faces. They were hidden by maintenance curtains for six months. Didn't stop any one. Or: Sorry, but that sign has been missing for two years. Still active.

The vacation caches there did not last nearly as long.

When my brother went to Thailand, there were sixty active caches in the county. Many had not been maintained in a couple fo years (hid by local cachers.) The red ant nest in the cache was not pleasant.

 

I guess why anyone would have the chutzpah to want to hide a cache and have a local maintain it for him/her? If I wanted to maintain a cache there, I would have hidden one myself!

Nope. This is taking entitlement too far. The world does not owe you a cache wherever you go.

And, if you cannot maintain it, you have no business hiding it.

[+simpjkee]

IMO. If you can't maintain a cache within two weeks then don't place it period. Let those people in those lands place their own caches. You place caches in your area.

[+Too Tall John]

If you can't maintain a cache within two weeks then don't place it period.

2 weeks? Cache permanence guidelines state something like 3 months. Just came back from a trip, flew to LA, drove to Utah & back. It was about a 2 week trip. If I had dropped a cache in LA & stated that I'd be back in 2 weeks to maintain it, it should have been approved?

 

Edit:Uhh... I see what you're saying now.

 

If a cache is reported as needing maintenance, you need to be in a location where said maintenance can be preformed within 2 weeks, right?

 

I agree with that. I'll let the rest of my post stand in case someone else reads it the way I did initially.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Too Tall John

[+Quiggle]

If a cache is reported as needing maintenance, you need to be in a location where said maintenance can be preformed within 2 weeks, right?

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#maint

 

As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time – normally a few weeks – in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive or transfer the listing.

 

Your cache won't be archived because it sat unmaintained for 2 weeks but you should be able to attend to it quickly. Some situations vary so those few weeks can be flexible.

[majormajor42]

Waymarking?

[+egami]

I agree with leaving it...if you are that intrigued with a place maybe it'd be more advantageous to try and promote geocaching in the region.

 

Also, you have to consider that not all cultures are like the US. There are places that you may want to be putting tupperware with GPS coordinates with your name on it as a foreigner.

[+drat19]

Nope. This is taking entitlement too far. The world does not owe you a cache wherever you go.

One of the most eloquent statements I've seen in any on-line forum in quite some time...well said.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I thought that Virtual Caches were the solution to that problem. With Virtuals you could make it fun to find things about a a very specific area and then have reporting guidlines to claim the cache.

Waymarks are the virtual virtual.

 

Good luck with that.

[petalene]

My sister placed a vacation cache after contacting a local to maintain it. She will probably never be up that way again, but she found a perfect place and really wanted to do it. Had she not been able to find a maintenance person, she would not have. I am very new to this, but I can already see the need to have someone check up on these once in a while-we already found one with water issues which my husband cleaned up and dried out. No one wants to find a moldy, smelly cache.

[+Too Tall John]

Someone came out my way and placed some vacation caches. They didn't look for a local maintainer until after they went home. I am the local they approached. I said yes, mostly because I didn't want the caches to become geo-litter if left unpublished. Here are some of the potential problems that either occurred to me while contemplating this, or that I actually encountered.

• What if a cache is reported missing before the local has had the chance to find it? One of the caches hidden was a "needle in a haystack" style hide. There were several DNFs before I was able to make the hike out to it. I got lucky in finding it. The person maintaining the cache really needs to know exactly where the cache is, and in this case, no amount of descriptive instructions or photos or whatever would have helped me find this any faster, or verify that it was gone. Luckily, I found it and know how to find it again now.
  
• Permission and Familiarity with Local Rules has already been mentioned in this thread, but here it is again. One of the caches was hidden on property where there already is a cache. The landowner allows caches, but only after prior approval, which was not received. It has been smoothed out since. By me, thanks.
  
• Who is responsible for replacing the containers? Fortunately for me, this occured to the cache hider. One of the caches, one of those magnetic button nanos, took a trip into the river below it's hiding place. I don't have any of those lying around the house. One was sent to me. I fixed it, although it was a bit of a drive to the location, which brings me to:
  
• How much of a commitment are you asking the local maintainer to make? At the time I was approached about this, I owned 10 caches. I didn't ask how many caches I was going to be watching, just that it was more than 2. Suddenly, there are 6 more. That's a 60% increase in the number of caches I was maintaining! It isn't that huge of a deal, really, but...
  
• What size cache are you willing to carry around with you on vacation? The two cases that I can think of locally where someone on vacation hid caches & got locals to watch them, every cache was a micro. In the case of the ones I'm watching, they are all quality containers, but in the other case, they are leaky film cans. In both cases, half the hiding spots would easily have supported a bigger container. Let's keep in mind that this is a family game, and that most kids like to find some swag. Your match container/film can/nano is going to be taking up space where a local who isn't trying to figure out how to fit as much stuff as they can into their luggage could hide a nicely stocked ammo box. "But John," you say, "there's plenty of space out there where you can put an ammo box still!" If you're dropping micros at every overlook you come across, there might be other spots, but not as many quality spots.
  

[+Glenn]

GeoCRAt, I suggest contacting your local cache reviewer and work something out with him. It sounds like you have special situation in your location.

 

When Geocaching began vacation caches were allowed but as Geocaching got popular throughout the world vacation cache became very impractical. Your area of the world seems to be a lot like Geocaching in U.S. was in it's first few years. You may be able to work something out with a cache reviewer but I doubt that Groundspeak will lift the vacation rule worldwide.

[+DezertMedic]

I am glad to see several productive, helpful post. Similar topics have garnered some ugly /heated replies in the past. At times I am saddened to see so many people quickly post negative (sounding) comment, especially when they missed the heart of the initial post.

 

The OP is asking for forum members (fellow cachers who love the hunt) to offer ways to HELP. As a fellow world traveler I understand where he is coming from. One of the appeals of this game is that it IS world wide and before heading to a new vacation area I am looking at caches there.

 

Virtual caches: bring them back - I think there is need of clear concise guidelines /requirements for a submission - eg. if you include an item to be counted in your cache then ensure that it is a near-permanent item ie stairs, columns ...

 

And some one pointed out they are nearly always in tourist spots ... well WE (traveling geocachers ARE tourists) - and we don't see everything there is in a country regardless. Some times it is nice to know if I am going somewhere to see what fellow cachers thought was an exception site/ view. This is exactly the case for my trip to Italy. Had it not been for the caches there, I would have missed several great sites/sights.

 

As for Vacation caches/ un-maintained caches: I think they are doable with some common sense guidelines.

1. Specify container requirements - e.g. waterproof, labeling, size allowable

2. Set a time limit on visits - although i have seen 'regular' caches not maintained or visited for years

3. Ensure that the placing party has permission (written/signed permission form or verified that it is on public (allowable) land)

4. This one is bound to cause some folks to react ---- Start your own Geocache site --- start a site where you list coordinates to Vacation / un maintained/ tourist caches --- that is how any thing gets started ... if you feel you have the will power and time to dedicate to a site then you can build up a complimentary site/ caching splinter organization (like way marking/ Survey markers) - Reading through some other topics, I see that this has been suggested before

 

Geocaching started by doing exactly GeoCRat wants to do. Find a way to place caches to spread the idea of geocaching to places where it doesn't or barely exists. To this extent, it seems highly unlikely geocaching would have ever caught on, if during its inception it followed all the rules it has now. And before some one says it .. yes I know the rules are there to further promote the game in a positive manner and have evolved. So as things evolve mayhaps a solution to this can be figure out to keep in the spirit, rules and expansion of the game.

[+joranda]

I am glad to see several productive, helpful post. Similar topics have garnered some ugly /heated replies in the past. At times I am saddened to see so many people quickly post negative (sounding) comment, especially when they missed the heart of the initial post.

 

The OP is asking for forum members (fellow cachers who love the hunt) to offer ways to HELP. As a fellow world traveler I understand where he is coming from. One of the appeals of this game is that it IS world wide and before heading to a new vacation area I am looking at caches there.

 

Virtual caches: bring them back - I think there is need of clear concise guidelines /requirements for a submission - eg. if you include an item to be counted in your cache then ensure that it is a near-permanent item ie stairs, columns ...

 

And some one pointed out they are nearly always in tourist spots ... well WE (traveling geocachers ARE tourists) - and we don't see everything there is in a country regardless. Some times it is nice to know if I am going somewhere to see what fellow cachers thought was an exception site/ view. This is exactly the case for my trip to Italy. Had it not been for the caches there, I would have missed several great sites/sights.

 

As for Vacation caches/ un-maintained caches: I think they are doable with some common sense guidelines.

1. Specify container requirements - e.g. waterproof, labeling, size allowable

2. Set a time limit on visits - although i have seen 'regular' caches not maintained or visited for years

3. Ensure that the placing party has permission (written/signed permission form or verified that it is on public (allowable) land)

4. This one is bound to cause some folks to react ---- Start your own Geocache site --- start a site where you list coordinates to Vacation / un maintained/ tourist caches --- that is how any thing gets started ... if you feel you have the will power and time to dedicate to a site then you can build up a complimentary site/ caching splinter organization (like way marking/ Survey markers) - Reading through some other topics, I see that this has been suggested before

 

Geocaching started by doing exactly GeoCRat wants to do. Find a way to place caches to spread the idea of geocaching to places where it doesn't or barely exists. To this extent, it seems highly unlikely geocaching would have ever caught on, if during its inception it followed all the rules it has now. And before some one says it .. yes I know the rules are there to further promote the game in a positive manner and have evolved. So as things evolve mayhaps a solution to this can be figure out to keep in the spirit, rules and expansion of the game.

 

Well said, It would be great to place caches in areas like that as long as very thing is planned right, down to the container it self.

[+Too Tall John]

I am glad to see several productive, helpful post. Similar topics have garnered some ugly /heated replies in the past. At times I am saddened to see so many people quickly post negative (sounding) comment, especially when they missed the heart of the initial post.

 

The OP is asking for forum members (fellow cachers who love the hunt) to offer ways to HELP...

Actually, the OP said:

I would be interested to know others' comments on this issue.

Are you suggesting that they meant that only comments from those who agreed with them would be helpful?

Virtual caches: bring them back - I think there is need of clear concise guidelines /requirements for a submission - eg. if you include an item to be counted in your cache then ensure that it is a near-permanent item ie stairs, columns ...

Virtual caches can require just as much maintenance as a physical cache. What happens if the sign you needed to gather info from is missing, or the info changes. What if construction restricts access to the site? It would be better for a virtual cache owner to be physically near the cache. Not to mention, if the reason for bringing back virts is so vacationers can have a cache away from home, I think the reasons for ending them far outweigh that reason.

And some one pointed out they are nearly always in tourist spots ... well WE (traveling geocachers ARE tourists) - and we don't see everything there is in a country regardless. Some times it is nice to know if I am going somewhere to see what fellow cachers thought was an exception site/ view. This is exactly the case for my trip to Italy. Had it not been for the caches there, I would have missed several great sites/sights.

I agree totally that caches are a great way to see things you wouldn't while on vacation, but I don't want to find caches that someone who's knowledge of the area is no better than mine, I want to find a cache placed where the locals think is a good spot.

As for Vacation caches/ un-maintained caches: I think they are doable with some common sense guidelines.

1. Specify container requirements - e.g. waterproof, labeling, size allowable

2. Set a time limit on visits - although i have seen 'regular' caches not maintained or visited for years

3. Ensure that the placing party has permission (written/signed permission form or verified that it is on public (allowable) land)

4. This one is bound to cause some folks to react ---- Start your own Geocache site --- start a site where you list coordinates to Vacation / un maintained/ tourist caches --- that is how any thing gets started ... if you feel you have the will power and time to dedicate to a site then you can build up a complimentary site/ caching splinter organization (like way marking/ Survey markers) - Reading through some other topics, I see that this has been suggested before

1. Unenforceable. We're already as close to having such a rule as we ever will be, and people still use plastic baggies as cache containers.

2. There already is a time limit built into the guidelines, and it is already a problem. Why make it worse?

3. Also already in the guidelines. Also hard to enforce.

4. There ya go! There's already a number of sites that allow for unrestricted placement of location-based game pieces. There are several geocaching sites, a few letterboxing sites, and a number of other games out there. You, of course, mentioned Waymarking, as well.

Geocaching started by doing exactly GeoCRat wants to do. Find a way to place caches to spread the idea of geocaching to places where it doesn't or barely exists. To this extent, it seems highly unlikely geocaching would have ever caught on, if during its inception it followed all the rules it has now. And before some one says it .. yes I know the rules are there to further promote the game in a positive manner and have evolved. So as things evolve mayhaps a solution to this can be figure out to keep in the spirit, rules and expansion of the game.

...and until that time arrives when we have that solution, vacation caches shall remain a no-no. Mayhaps we shall discover that the solution that keeps "in the spirit, rules and expansion of the game" is to continue to not allow you to place a cache where it cannot be maintained by you.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

Go ahead and hide them, just don't list them here. The eventual problems that may arise from these could give the website a bad name.

[+CSpenceFLY]

There are already plenty crappy un-maintained caches out there.