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Plethora of Puzzle Caches leading to Micros


Barnie's Band of Gold

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Hey everyone just want to get the "pulse" of the geocaching community. Lately I have seen a large number of puzzle caches (mostly put out by newbies). These puzzles usually require a great deal of computer time to solve. Once solved the co-ordinates are provided for a micro in an area that would EASILY accommodate a regular size cache.

 

My issues with this are:

 

1. I'm into caching to explore the great outdoors not to become an obscure subject researcher

2. I'm into quality time with the family in the afore mentioned great outdoors and these puzzles cut into that

3. These puzzles are often times rife with mistakes and miscalculations. Certainly everyone makes mistakes from time to time but with the increased complexity comes an increased responsibility to "get it right"

4. I'm denied an opportunity to trade, move a bug or share an experience other that my computer prowess.

 

Am I the only one here craving for a field experience that ends with a peanut butter jar wrapped in camo tape?

 

Happy caching,

Barnie

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Barnie -

 

I'm with you on that one. The worst is when that puzzle cache that took you a few hours to solve ends up in the middle of a forest and it's a micro...

 

I do enjoy the hunt, but looking for a micro in the middle of the forest with spotty reception due to trees after spending a couple hrs on your computer already, just isn't my cup of tee...

 

Again, an old peanutbutter jar you can pick out of someone's recycling if you need to, it doesn't cost a thing.

 

Maybe the people putting out the micros don't have the time or money to buy swag for the container. Though, I would rather see an empty large container than a micro...

 

Just my 2cents...

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I've never been a great fan of micros of any ilk (Yes, yes, I know I've placed one but the situation demanded it :D ). I'm with BBoG in that I, and especially moop jr., like to find treasure at the end of a hunt. And if that hunt involves or ends in interesting places, the more the enjoyment. I've found micros in alleys and parking lots that left me thinking "Why?". You may ask why I bother looking for them. Simply put, those little white gaps on my GSAK table bug me. :D

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For example, one guy drilled out a dead tree, stuck the film canister in the hole and inserted a life like branch. Clever.

:D

 

Dead tree or not, this should not be encouraged, it is defacement of property.

Really C-T ??? Aside from the fact that I'd NEVER find such a cache...I'm astounded to learn that it's against the rules??? How is it "defacement of property"? How is this different from pulling rotting wood out of a stump, placing the container inside (a REAL cache container too..none of this micro garbage!) and then covering it up with bits of forest flotsam?

 

Did I miss a tongue-in-cheek smiley somewhere? Wouldn't be the first time!

:D

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Barnie, my sentiments exactly. I already have to spend more time then I like at the computer managing my GSAK/Cachemate databases and planning my excursions. The last thing I want to do is sit there figuring out some puzzle.

 

But I don't worry about it too much. Some people like puzzle caches, I mostly ignore them. Once I click that button, I don't even know they exist.

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For example, one guy drilled out a dead tree, stuck the film canister in the hole and inserted a life like branch. Clever.

:D

 

Dead tree or not, this should not be encouraged, it is defacement of property.

Really C-T ??? Aside from the fact that I'd NEVER find such a cache...I'm astounded to learn that it's against the rules??? How is it "defacement of property"? How is this different from pulling rotting wood out of a stump, placing the container inside (a REAL cache container too..none of this micro garbage!) and then covering it up with bits of forest flotsam?

 

Did I miss a tongue-in-cheek smiley somewhere? Wouldn't be the first time!

:D

This would be along the same lines of digging a hole with a shovel or just moving aside some forest flotsam. If you are in the woods with power tools drilling holes, how would that look to anyone viewing this? What also stops the next cacher thinking this is a great idea and drilling a live tree, its been done.

 

# Caches that are buried. If a shovel, trowel or other “pointy” object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate.

# Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method.

 

A drill bit is a "pointy" object digging into a tree.

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Leave it to Tequila to hijack my thread and take this in a different direction. The issue here folks is heavy computer time to solve a puzzle leading to a micro vs. quality time out enjoying the walk in the woods, etc.

 

Short of hitting "ignore" listing, what can be done about these caches that seem more about astounding us with more useless information then exercise and the pursuit in the field?

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For example, one guy drilled out a dead tree, stuck the film canister in the hole and inserted a life like branch. Clever.

:(

 

Dead tree or not, this should not be encouraged, it is defacement of property.

Really C-T ??? Aside from the fact that I'd NEVER find such a cache...I'm astounded to learn that it's against the rules??? How is it "defacement of property"? How is this different from pulling rotting wood out of a stump, placing the container inside (a REAL cache container too..none of this micro garbage!) and then covering it up with bits of forest flotsam?

 

Did I miss a tongue-in-cheek smiley somewhere? Wouldn't be the first time!

:(

This would be along the same lines of digging a hole with a shovel or just moving aside some forest flotsam. If you are in the woods with power tools drilling holes, how would that look to anyone viewing this? What also stops the next cacher thinking this is a great idea and drilling a live tree, its been done.

 

# Caches that are buried. If a shovel, trowel or other “pointy” object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate.

# Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method.

 

A drill bit is a "pointy" object digging into a tree.

 

Like CT said and the guidelines quoted

 

# Caches that are buried. If a shovel, trowel or other “pointy” object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate.

# Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method.

 

This means you cannot use any fastener to attach a geocache to anything, or drill holes or cut or other tool like actions. While the above is a generic way of expressing the idea the full version in my eyes is more like this:

 

You may not use any tools to create a hiding place at the listing coordinates or any stages of a geocache. You can only use your hands to place a geocache. You may create a container for your geocache at home like a birdhouse that you will hang in a tree from a loop around a branch. At the geocache site it must be all done by hand, no tools of any kind. Use of tools is defacement of public or private property.

 

Of course there are some exceptions like using wire cutters to trim the loop you make or needle nose pliers to make nice twists in the wire. Neither of these would damage any natural or man-made objects.

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Thanks for the clarification CacheDrone, can we get back to the original subject now?

 

I apologize for even placing an entry in this thread. I can't believe anyone would take such an simple comment, which was meant as a compliment, and go off on a tangent like has happened. This is twice now that a geocaching volunteer has taken my comments and gone off on a totally incorrect tangent. I guess it is time to no longer post comments.

 

PLEASE STAY ON BBOG's TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, but I did want to point out that a cache was not to be hidden as such, questions were asked and answered, if anyone has anything to add, please start a new thread on the subject of the hide technique in question.

 

On topic, some cachers do enjoy a good puzzle, if you don't , then don't solve and find them. As far as ending with a micro, this is usually indicated on the cache page and if you don't like micro's, then don't spend your time solving the puzzle as some cachers feel it is solving the puzzle that is the accomplishment second to finding the cache and signing the log. I also don't see how you arrived at a consensus with 4 replies, the best way to have caches that you like to find, is to hide them. Most cachers don't visit the forums and most cachers hide what they find and like. I enjoy all caches, I have also found a number of caches that just make me ask "why here?", but I still go and find them so I can't really complain about them. If I have time to get out and find caches, I go, if I can't get out, I review or I solve some of the great puzzle caches that are in my area (or plan on visiting). I don't spend time that I could be out, in solving a puzzle, that is my choice, but I do like having an array of caches to find, something for everyone, but not all caches are for everyone, I like having the choice.

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Please don't take this the wrong way Cache-tech but I'm not really interested in the opinions of the moderators. I'm looking for the opinions of those that "play" the game rather than "run" it (yes I know moderators can play too).

 

These puzzle caches are great for those under house arrest with limited time to get outdoors - but for the rest of us??

So should I have posted my opinion with my player account to have my opinion count? Since it is mostly known who I am, I don't take the time to switch anymore. My opinion is my opinion, I cache therefore I have an opinion, it should not matter if I am a moderator or not, thanks.

 

If you don't like puzzles, don't do them, you don't have to, it is your choice.

Edited by Cache-tech
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Hey everyone just want to get the "pulse" of the geocaching community. Lately I have seen a large number of puzzle caches (mostly put out by newbies). These puzzles usually require a great deal of computer time to solve. Once solved the co-ordinates are provided for a micro in an area that would EASILY accommodate a regular size cache.

 

My issues with this are:

 

1. I'm into caching to explore the great outdoors not to become an obscure subject researcher

2. I'm into quality time with the family in the afore mentioned great outdoors and these puzzles cut into that

3. These puzzles are often times rife with mistakes and miscalculations. Certainly everyone makes mistakes from time to time but with the increased complexity comes an increased responsibility to "get it right"

4. I'm denied an opportunity to trade, move a bug or share an experience other that my computer prowess.

 

Am I the only one here craving for a field experience that ends with a peanut butter jar wrapped in camo tape?

 

Happy caching,

Barnie

We really like a puzzle if it's geo-related, a cool new way to use your gps, a projection or something like that. We also like ones where there is a hidden message or something that you click to make it all appear, those are cool. Mathematical ones tweak our interest too. We love it if we get to work with other cachers to trade parts of the coordinates across the world.

 

Yup, there are a lot of puzzles popping up where folks want you to research their favourite pasttime in great depths. We're not into becoming ' obscure subject researchers' or telling the kids that we can't go for a walk in the woods because first Mom/Dad has to spend hours trying to solve this silly puzzle about how many variety of oranges exist and why they have different dimples, skin thicknesses, etc before we can go on a treasure hunt. That's not caching - the dog wants a walk NOW!

 

I think the woods is no place for a micro, but not all agree and that's fine. I love to hide/find a devious micro downtown or in a mall where it's really hard to hide much more. I recall one hike up a mountain where we found a cache that was a film canister micro tucked behind a clump of moss with bad coordinates! Our destination was a 'regular' cache at the top and to hide another 'regular' on a different part of the hillside, but we decided to look for the micro on our way back down. About 20m away was a spot big enough for an ammo can!

 

When we see that people are having to e-mail back and forth with the obscure puzzle creator to be able to solve it, or mistakes are being corrected repeatedly then we put it on our ignore list. Unfortunately, this year our ignore list has grown by leaps and bounds.

 

You are not the only one here craving for a field experience that ends with a peanut butter jar wrapped in camo tape. Not a solution, but perhaps spend more time finding caches hidden 2005 and earlier - those ones seemed to be more classic than the hides nowadays. That won't solve the problem though.

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Hey Landsharkz you covered my thoughts exactly. I like your idea of visiting caches hidden in 2005 and earlier but have already done those (within a reasonable distance). I only have 20 or so caches to visit within a 40km radius of my home co-ordinates - so each cache outing has me spending too much time in the car.

 

Of course this recent puzzle to micro scourge is so close to home I can walk to some of them. Makes it tough to ignore.... computer time vs. car time.

 

Maybe quitting time.

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Please keep to the forums guidelines, be it fellow posters or a moderator/volunteer reviewer.

 

Forum Guidelines

 

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

 

Thank you.

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My issues with this are:

 

1. I'm into caching to explore the great outdoors not to become an obscure subject researcher

2. I'm into quality time with the family in the afore mentioned great outdoors and these puzzles cut into that

3. These puzzles are often times rife with mistakes and miscalculations. Certainly everyone makes mistakes from time to time but with the increased complexity comes an increased responsibility to "get it right"

4. I'm denied an opportunity to trade, move a bug or share an experience other that my computer prowess.

 

Personally I don't like micros in the woods. Some PLCs are very well done, and I admire those. I also like to find ammo cans, and other regular sized caches. I also like the feeling of accomplishment after finishing a particularly hard puzzle. I usually do this in my spare time.

 

I dislike puzzles with errors, but sometimes that's what you get.

 

But if you don't like puzzles don't do them! If you don't like micros, don't find them! It's your choice, you don't have to find every cache.

 

GT

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Hey Landsharkz you covered my thoughts exactly. I like your idea of visiting caches hidden in 2005 and earlier but have already done those (within a reasonable distance). I only have 20 or so caches to visit within a 40km radius of my home co-ordinates - so each cache outing has me spending too much time in the car.

 

Of course this recent puzzle to micro scourge is so close to home I can walk to some of them. Makes it tough to ignore.... computer time vs. car time.

 

Maybe quitting time.

Far-be-it-from me to psychoanalize your relationship with geocaching :)...

 

A new cache just popped up here in town and it was a really good puzzle ending with a decent size container so off I went in pursuit :) .

 

On the drive home, (after a well earned 2TF), I got to thinking that maybe instead of pondering quitting you could find another way to have fun with geocaching. What about hiding a cache or a series of puzzle caches called BBoG Mary Poppins Caches (between you and me they'd be Practically Perfect in Every Way :D ). Make ones like the ones you dream like to find.

 

What about only doing the caches in your community that are worth your time and being a 'holiday cacher'? When you get to a new town, city, campground, or park, you could satisfy your hunger for your idea of high quality caches because you'd be in an area full of unfound peanut butter jars, a veritable smorgasboard of choices such that you could OD on great hikes and ammo cans!

 

Now excuse me... another regular just got approved... gotta fit it in while Jr. LS is at music lessons I guess :)

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BBoG,

 

If you read nothing else of my post, this is the basic thought "Hide caches you would enjoy finding" which I learned from SBell11 years ago. Filter out those caches that would not interest you.

 

For what it's worth I understand, mostly, where you are coming from. Back when we (you and I) started there was a different mindset and I'm not judging which is better or not.

 

We liked to take people on hikes into the woods to a nice spot where our cache was 'covered' to prevent the casual passerby from seeing it. That was all there was, and it was also what we were looking for in a hobby. Hike in the woods.

 

Several factors came along that shifted the way Geocaching works. As Virtuals were phased out there was a push towards other options, and my opinion is that this moment was the change to the micro hide. Personally I prefer the Multi way of using Virtuals. Take me to a spot, use some basic calculation and redirect me to the cache. But others saw this as a chance to change the game to a 'can I trick people into not being able to find it'. That is enjoyable to some others, not me but that's okay.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like to challenge people too, just saying that I prefer to hike in the woods when Geocaching.

 

Then the Puzzlers came along and now they wanted to challenge people mentally. I don't mind this so much but I'd rather walk in the woods to a traditional that is regular sized. Still, again it seems to be about making people work hard to earn the smilie.

 

It didn't take long for the Micro People and the Puzzle People to mesh into one. Now they can challenge people mentally and make them search really hard for a teeny weenie container. Then it moved into the common places too, almost with a belief of "I'm placing a cache here because I can" instead of because it is a good spot.

 

So, often you get a meager location that was a challenge to figure out and locate the container at. The satisfaction is in the eventual find in that you know you solved the puzzle and found what was really hard to locate. In escense you have defeated the hider of the cache.

 

That's not generally how I play. I'm much happier to receive Found It logs that say "Great walk, cool location and thanks for showing me this". Ever read the logs on the micros? ZZzzzzzz. Ever see comments about it being a really great puzzle? Not often.

 

I've said it dozens of times and I will still say it many more times: I cache to get outside and see interesting places. If I have to ask "Why here?" then all it is then is just a number to my find count and forgettable. It passes time but is not really what I want.

 

:) The Blue Quasar

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I like the variety - traditionals being my favourite because I can easily use the PDA/pocket query method of finding them. My least favourite being caches that are hidden without much care or thought. But I like variety and I especially like creativity in all forms.

 

One of our all time favourite caches was a micro cache by Barnies Band of Gold. We found it back on Aug 7 2002. The cache was 'I Spy' and if we found it today I think we would still think it was a great cache and an excellent example of what micros should strive to be. The only difference is we'd find it in a couple of seconds now because everyone has since copied the hiding method. It took us about 5 minutes to locate and it was sooooo spy-like for us. The location was historical and had a definite Austin Powers cool factor. It was also located next to the lake, so there was a nice view to top things off.

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Thanks for the kind words J.A.R.S. Regarding "I Spy" we were proud of that one because it told a story, was located at a historic spot, had a great view and used a unique (for the time) hiding method. I should add that trees didn't obscure the GPS reception.

 

There has been such an explosion of caches since 2002 that sadly we don't get out to your area to do some of your caches anymore. In those days you didn't think twice about a long drive to visit a few caches. Quality was always there with your caches, those from Olar, Res2100, TrimblesTrek and 1701eh (RIP Tony). Different story now.

 

You know there was a time when I could recall every detail of a cache I had visited. Cachers would call for help on one I may have visited two years prior. I astounded with my memory - can't do that now. Too many unmemmorable caches. (good thing Tequila has given up on this thread otherwise he would make some joke about age or retirement!)

 

Glad to see you are still in the game J.A.R.S.

Edited by Barnie's Band of Gold
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Okay, at BBoG's request, I'll chuck in my $30 worth.

 

First off, here's what I consider to be the inalienable rights of every geocacher:

 

1) Within the posted Geocaching.com guidelines, hide what you will, where you will.

2) Feel free to wrap a mind-numbingly difficult puzzle around a cache.

3) Construct a 30 stage multi that spans two provinces, if you like. :)

4) Like or dislike any cache, for any reason.

 

Now to answer Barnie's question, no, you're not the only one yearning for "a peanut butter jar wrapped in camo tape". That's my ideal end to a geocaching adventure as well, but, I do like puzzles. I've solved thousands of them since I was a kid, and I continue to enjoy solving them now. I don't mind learning a little about an obscure topic, or an interest that someone else has, but I don't want to have to become an expert in the field in order to solve a puzzle to find a cache. A puzzle should add something to the entire experience, such as teaching you something about Braille, or force you to finally learn how to project a waypoint with your GPS. It shouldn't be put there JUST to make finding the cache more difficult or time consuming.

 

As for micros, I would prefer that folks not use them as the final container for puzzle caches. If you have to use a micro because of the location, then pick another spot. And as far as locations are concerned, I agree with BQ 100%. When you're looking for a place to hide a cache, please ask yourself "Why here?", and if you can't come up with a decent reason, that's not the spot. And if the spot has considerable tree cover and poor satellite reception, that's not the spot for a micro either. Consider a small cache with a clever hiding spot or some super-effective camo. I don't believe in increasing the difficulty by decreasing the container size, especially in the woods.

 

Just remember, these are only my preferences. It doesn't mean that I won't try and solve your puzzle or find your cache if it isn't my dream cache. You should be able to tell by my log entry whether it's thumbs up or thumbs down ... for ME. :)

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Oh yeah, I forgot one thing. Use your Ignore List.

 

If you find a cache popping up in your pocket queries that you would never find because:

 

1) it has a puzzle you'll never solve or don't want to solve

2) it's too physically demanding

3) it offends you in some way

4) you don't find it worthy of your effort

5) you don't like the cache owner

6) whatever else ...

 

put it on your ignore list. It's not a bad thing, it's what it's there for. Use it! :)

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As for micros, I would prefer that folks not use them as the final container for puzzle caches.

 

I don't understand why the combination of puzzle plus micro is any more objectionable than a micro without a puzzle.

 

For me, the main point of a puzzle cache is the sense of accomplishment that I get when I solve it. As long as the cache itself has a logbook to sign, I don't care if it's big or small. In fact, for really difficult puzzles caches which don't get found very often, I think that micros are better, since that way people won't be tempted to drop off travel bugs that will sit in the cache for months. For that reason, most of my puzzle caches are micros that are fairly easy to find once you have the coordinates.

 

I also enjoy finding caches that have difficult puzzles and are hard to get to and/or cleverly hidden; that just increases the sense of accomplishment. If I lived somewhere with a large population of cachers, I'd hide some like that, but in my area it doesn't seem worthwhile.

 

Nylimb

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For me there are several factors in play for me.

 

1) The puzzle. There are some puzzles I like and some I don't. To me a good puzzle is one that challenges you enough that you have to think a bit before you "get" it. Once you "get" it, you should find yourself wondering what took you so long. Anyone can make a really simple puzzle and anyone can make a puzzle that is just "stupid hard", the great puzzle hiders strike a balance.

 

2) The cache size. Even though I rarely trade or even look at the swag, I enjoy finding a Regular size container. I don't know why, but my level of satisfaction is almost always higher with an ammo can than it is with a micro. That's not to say there are no lame micros, of course.

 

3) My mood. The other week I was on a highway where every roadside turnout had a micro stuck under the garbage can. In fact, it is hard to go anywhere in our province now without a bison tube or keyholder stuck under a roadside garbage can. Point is, the day I was driving I was in the mood to purely run up my numbers so I didn't mind. When I am in the mood for a good caching experience I'll avoid the lame micros, especially those in urban areas.

 

So, assuming I am in the mood to solve a puzzle my outcome will be one of the following:

 

Good puzzle + good hide = great caching experience

Good puzzle + lame hide = OK caching experience

Crappy puzzle + good hide = OK caching experience

Crappy puzzle + lame hide = Why did I bother?

 

I also lament the spread of micros, because most of them exist "just because there was no other cache within 161m". When I hide a cache I try to put thought into my locations and make them exist for a reason. If I find a spot and I don't have swag I'll use the old mayonaisse jar wrapped in camo tape with nothing more than a stash note and a logbook/pencil. I'll note that on the cache page so people who are in it for the trades can skip my cache.

 

Sorry, I veered a little off topic. Carry on!

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Putting in my .02 worth...I like puzzle caches...they add to the who geocaching experience...however I do not want to do them exclusively....I save them for those days when I can't get out and then when I can I have a whole pile more just to see if I got them right!!

As for puzzle caches that lead to micros or micro caches in the woods...makes no difference to me...a hide is a hide..

Just because a larger cache could have been placed doesn't mean one should have...to me the whole experience is getting there with the bonus of being right!!!

Another thing is maybe the landscape/enviroment area does not require someone thrashing about and possibly destroying an area looking for a cache...that has happened here in my area... I personally own a multi cache set in a provincial park that is Park Friendly...in order to do that in this situation required that it be a micro.....the point was not in the swag at the end but in the learning experience along the way.....

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BBOG,

 

1. become a premium member :D

2. make a pocket query eliminating all micros, and puzzles - have it emailed to your address every day

3. use that pocket query, and only that pocket query - Ignore everything else. :mad:

 

seems the problem is solved easily enough, but the cure seems to leave a bitter taste no?

 

You could also try logging the caches you don't like with one letter found-logs like I do. If you have ever got a found log from me like "y?" then your cache sucks IMHO

 

edit - added IMHO

Edited by Juicepig
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I particularly don't like micros, period. Especially when the cacher fails to mark it as a micro on the website, and one hikes sometimes a great distance in the wilderness only to eventually find a micro. But even that is acceptable as long as the site is something to behold, but when you hike a mile or two only to come up to a fallen tree with a micro in it, with nothing around but woods, that's pretty lame in my opinion.

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The worst part about a lot of those god-forsaken 'obscure trivia' type puzzles is that a lot of them have a lot of questions covering a wide variety of idiotic subjects. It wouldn't be quite AS bad if they stuck to one subject for you to go poke around at, but when I need to spend god knows how long online for each question, starting the search over for every one... that's just tedious.

 

And yeah... when they use incorrect math or counting in some form or another... that really doesn't help either.

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Either I am missing the issue or there are more than a few folks here missing the point. I can't speak for other cachers but I have the choice of what caches to hunt. Puzzle, micro, event, lame, difficult, etc. I think the criticism of the size of the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow being to small is selfish. All of the caches I hunt clearly state the size of the container. I put out both traditional caches and nasty difficult puzzle caches. I use a variety of container sizes and I use the 10% rule for hides to finds. It has been said thousands of times that if you don't like the quality of caches in your area then put out better ones and reward the cache hiders who's work you appreciate with a decent log entry.

 

You say you don't like a micro in the woods as the final for a puzzle cache. I hate even more a cache that took weeks of planning and design to get a log entry TNLNSL. It can be a slap in the face on both sides.

 

Don't like it, don't hunt it.

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I did say I'm not a fan of micros but when I really think about it some of my favourite caches have been micros. Many of these had interesting cammo or some type of twist. Since there are lots of families caching I think it is great when there is a cache container, when possible, that keeps kids interested. I don't recall too many caches, that I've done that had a micro when there was room for something larger.

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{snip}

It has been said thousands of times that if you don't like the quality of caches in your area then put out better ones and reward the cache hiders who's work you appreciate with a decent log entry.

 

You say you don't like a micro in the woods as the final for a puzzle cache. I hate even more a cache that took weeks of planning and design to get a log entry TNLNSL. It can be a slap in the face on both sides.

 

Don't like it, don't hunt it.

 

This thread was on my mind last night when I was out caching and what you said was along the same lines as my experience. I found several regular sized containers with standard sized note pads for log books. Taking the time to write a decent log entry both in the log book and when it is logged on line is rewarding for both the finder and the placer.

 

When you the finder do it, you are creating a journal that you can read years later and remember the cache better and the times when you enjoyed it or didn't. Also the owner or placer will likely appreciate it and in turn be inspired to place more caches for you to enjoy or if there was room for improvement then they might work to make it more rewarding.

 

But I find that the effort I put into creating a good log entry in the field and online is directly proportional to how I enjoyed the cache and how much effort I feel they put into hiding it. I don't go out of my way to be negative about a less-that-desirable hide, but they ain't getting a flowery falling over myself log either.

 

:) The Blue Quasar

 

edit: missing word

Edited by The Blue Quasar
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I think I'm lucky. I pretty much enjoy all caches. I enjoy solving puzzles, I enjoy hikes and I enjoy searching for micros!!

 

The only caches I avoid are in "bad" areas of a city or too near a school / playground for me to feel comfortable. I'll only do those if I have my kids with me.

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Wow. One thing I'm finding a lot of these days is talk that I really should have discovered Geocaching three years earlier than I did. I'm one of those cachers that started AFTER all the gold plated ammo cans located along majestic trails with beautiful wide reaching vistas.

 

When I came along, it took me a while before I could place my first hide. I ended up selecting a spot, after much thought, that had previously (and unknown to me) held two previous geocaches in it. So much for bringing cachers to a unique spot they've never been to before.

 

Nowadays you see a proliferation of micros around urban areas and many of these are placed because cachers want to contribute to the game, but are unable to find an area with a breathtaking view and no caches within 160 metres. I look at the Bruce Trail as an example - the trail is practically mapped with geocaches.... and I'm not talking about the Bruce Trail project caches here.

 

I've enjoyed almost every cache I've visited. Yes, there have been times that I've asked myself "why have you brought me here". A Wal*Mart parking lot is not generally a scenic vista. A cache was placed "just because they could". So what? You left the house and went to find the cache, it got you outside. Most of us are using mapping GPS units, we know well before we've arrived at the cache that it's probably not along a scenic gorge if it's showing in the middle of a megamall complex.

 

If you REALLY dislike micros in the woods, GSAK has wonderful features to help you filter these out. The rest of us can continue to enjoy our fun hunts. I've seen some bloody clever micros out there that are crafty as anyone could possibly imagine. If you're only interested in ammo boxes with a significant hike, try using a pocket query with size=regular or large and attribute="significant hike" or "takes longer than one hour". You'll find both caches that are within driving distance of home that way.

 

The thing I like about a hobby that attracts 200,000 people is that there are 200,000 ways to dream up a cache hide. When I hear talk about pre 2005 caches only or that things were better when the charter members were the only members, the only thing I can think is that you didn't want people like me to sign up for the game.

 

Please, someone tell me that I'm wrong about that attitude. I'd like to think we welcome new people, and new ideas to the game. Even if that idea is a micro, or a puzzle.

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I for one really like puzzle caches, especially where math or numbers are involved.

 

For those that continue to say that they don’t like the micros in the woods or the quick driveby micros…Your adventure doesn’t have to stop there. Find the micro and why not continue down the trail and explore further. Also, what difference does it make if it’s a micro or an ammo can? Sure one might be harder to find over the other, but both bring you to the same location.

 

Also, there are so many caches in Ontario now, one no longer has to find all of the caches in a given area\town. I remember the days many years ago when one would visit a neighbouring town and clean out\find all of the caches in that town, but now that is next to impossible or requires several trips to do that. I remember many years ago I would have no unfound caches in Mississauga, Oakville, Burlington, and now there are between 150+ caches that remain on my unfound list…I just can’t keep up anymore.

 

As for the off topic stuff about defacing public property…does that mean that we can no longer hang a cache in a tree? I.e., it defaces the tree!!! But of course it is ok for a cache description to encourage people to bring a hammer and NAIL a shoe to a tree, and also ok to HANG several objects in one tree. And as for using wire or cable ties or whatever, eventually the tree grows and the ties will constrict on the tree and damage the tree, yet it is ok. And why is it ok for certain people to go off topic on certain threads and not others. But this is off topic and unrelated to the OP, so back to being on topic.

 

One thing I learned ever since I started caching 5+ years ago is that cachers will do what they see others do. So to that all I can say is, if people like ammo boxes and hikes, hide more of those types of cache and others will follow. There's millions of places to hide a cache.

 

What I like about caching is that I never know what interesting place I will see or what awesome experience I will have while finding a cache…The fact it’s a micro, puzzle, regular, hiking, driveby or whatever really has no bearing on the value I get out of the cache.

 

Most of all on any given day, I like variety. I don’t pick and choose the caches, I just put a list together before we head out of all the caches in any given area, and then we just go find the next one on the list, regardless of what type of cache it is. In a perfect world this would usually include some drivebys, some medium hikes (300-500m) and one nice long hike. It’s the not knowing what we will see next or what to expect next or the chance of stumbling across something neat that keeps me going. Sure the extremely memorable may be few and far between, but when we do have a wow experience, it will stay with us forever.

 

As an example, a cache called Carlisle (GCX0GR), micro, almost a driveby (maybe 100m hike), most probably just do the quick in and out, but we chose to spend about an hour here having fun and playing. Our choice was to have fun here (well the fun just came naturally). This cache was more rewarding and memorable for us than 1000 ammo boxes hidden 500m in the woods.

 

I don’t need an ammo box 1km in the woods in order for me to get out for a hike.

 

I feel each cache has their place on any given day. There are days when we go out caching and just try to find anything and everything regardless as stated earlier. Other days we will pick the quick ones if we are pressed for time and other times we will pick one cache as we did 2 weeks ago and choose to hike 8km round trip (passing within 50m and skipping another cache we hadn’t yet found) instead of taking the easy 500 round trip hike.

 

Also there was a point earlier this year where I had a lot of pain for 3 months in my knee (my own fault for hiking 52km), so during that time I really found a new appreciation for the quick drivebys. Now that my knee is fine again, it’s back to finding anything and everything.

 

And despite what people keep saying, I will strongly disagree that people prefer the hike and ammo boxes. I have done some scientific tests that prove that given the choice, most people like the quick drive by micros…

 

See my It’s Your Choice (GC12XMP) cache…people chose the driveby micro 91% or 72% or 64% of the time, depending on how you analyze the results…either way, with 66 finds I think it clearly shows that anywhere from about 2/3 to 9/10 of the geocachers prefer quick driveby micros over a 1km hike along a nice trail with nice view to a regular size container with trade items.

 

Another example…all 3 caches on the same trail:

--Light At The End of the Tunnel (GC10002) – about 500-600m hike, ammo box, neat hide - 26 finds

--Cache 'spyü 00001 - It All Starts With One (GCZZYC) – Driveby micro – 44 finds

--Crazy Halloween Letterbox (GC167YG) – about 300m hike between the above 2 caches. Very well hidden Tupperware - 29 finds

 

And one last and very excellent example:

(both caches in the same general location, hidden within a few days of each other and less than 1 month ago.)

--GC1701A: Virtual Beginnings and Memories in Hilton – A disappointing 6 finds. Nice 3km minimum round trip hike is an amazing spot that brings you to\past 2 awesome unique sights, with a neat hide at the end and a lock and lock container containing quality trade items and lots of TBs\geocoins.

--Bolted In – 43 finds - Driveby.

 

I think the numbers speak for themselves as to what most people prefer even if most people don’t admit it.

 

In the end I think it comes down to choice, and we all have choices. My preference is to do caches regardless of the type it is, so essentially have the ability to do all caches that are available to me. On any given day my choices will vary and some days I may choose to find different types of caches than other days. And most importantly, have fun!

 

And by the way, I miss your hides Barnie. My family and I have many fond memories, including my first ever DNF, which was your Millenium Boardwalk cache and the first ever Lamp post micro I tried which I thought was a genious hide once I actually returned and found it.

Edited by res2100
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I have not had time to read all of the replies (I will later) but went as far as those that Cache-Tech got flamed for (that was a little more heated than it needed to be BBoG, in my opinion...he is a solid cacher and it shouldn't matter what title he postst under, its still jsut an opinion...no one has to take the opinion if they don't want to).

 

Let me just say one thing (OK, a couple things):

 

1. While I hate micros in evergreens the most, if it takes me to a nice place in the process, then to me, the mission of geocaching has been fulfilled. Whenever I am telling someone about geocaching, my key line is that its a hobby that takes you to places you would not know to go to otherwise. While I am currently on a numbers mission and look for ways to hit my number 2000 by the end of Jan, the ones that are the most fun are the ones that take me way out there. I don't care what's at the end of the line, its the journey I like...

 

...picture someone leaving on a train ride from Halifax to Vancouver...at the end of the trip is a new job, a girlfriend, lottery winnings, whatever..."man, when I ge there, my life will be set...I can't wait for Vancouver"...the problem with this story is that he is so focused on what lays at the end of the journey that he misses the beauty of the trip...he misses the St Lawrence, the rugged beauty of the Canadian Shield, the vastness of the Praries, the Rockies, etc...society worries too much about the destination and not enough about the journey.

 

2. While I certainly prefer regulars, if the micro is hidden uniquely or for a reason (like not impacting the immediate environment as much) then I am all for it.

 

3. Puzzles leading to micros...again, I'd prefer it to be a regular as well but as my numbers clilmb, I care less and less about what's in the container or what size it is. For me, I really enjoy the puzzles as I can work on them on my own time and get out for the find when I have the chance. I just like the mental challenge as well as the hikes.

 

4. Lastly, I just wanted to point out that sometimes we make comments looking for opinions but we don't really want others opinions, we want to vent our opinions and change everyone else's to match our own with the hope of "changing the world". I'd ask that we all remember that its a small world (after all...) and we all have to exist in the same space. Posting messages on a forum is safe because we will likely never meet a lot of the people we talk to on forums and therefore we feel we can throw out the rules for civilized conversation because of that. Lets try to treat fellow cachers a little better when their opinion differs. Its just that, an opinion.

 

Cheers all!

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Thanks for the kind words regarding a couple of our cache hides res2100 - glad you enjoyed them.

 

I agree that given the choice most people are going to select the easy "score" and may avoid those with multiple points of failure. For exampe:

 

1. Dizzyingly obscure puzzle (first failure point)

2. Poor GPSr coverage area (second failure point)

3. Choice of location, i.e., not winter friendly (third failure point)

4. Micro placement in conditions 2 and 3 above (fourth failure point)

 

Someone had posted that a puzzle leading to a cache provides two opportunities to "beat" the cache placer. While I didn't think the object was to "beat" someone, perhaps these types of caches should be "worth" more. Similar to FTF in the minds of some.

 

Is it time to stop pretending that it isn't just about the numbers?

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I agree that given the choice most people are going to select the easy "score" and may avoid those with multiple points of failure. For exampe:

 

Is it time to stop pretending that it isn't just about the numbers?

 

Really depends upon what your caching day is about:

 

Sometimes it's an opportunity grab as you are en route to another destination. How many times have I pulled off the highway to find a cache that's 15M from the road. I really appreciate those breaks from the drive to Chatham, for example. This is why I have caches placed in carpool lots along the 401. I usually don't have time to visit Silver Peak when I'm heading to Sudbury. I'll be back for that cache someday.

 

Sometimes it's an opportunity for a memorable hike. I'm really looking forward to the Hilton Falls Loop, which I may visit for an upcoming milestone of mine.

 

Sometimes it IS about the numbers - who doesn't like to be able to say they've found xxx number of caches, whether that be 50 or 5,000? I know I've gone to urban micro rich areas when I'm close to a milestone and an upcoming event cache.

 

Sometimes it is about being less selfish. I normally cache in a group - if one of the group members is less mobile, then the quick smash'n'grabs can be good for that person. What about the wheelchair bound cacher? Surely the puzzle that leads to a micro along a paved urban path provides some fun for that cacher?

 

I enjoy a good hike as much as the next person. I've even signed up for Res2100's next big hike this coming weekend. Pretty sure my knees are going to dislike me for that choice.

 

Sure, I can sympathize with the 'I did 150 hours of googling and studying some rare hobby/scientific facts that I'll probably never use again only to find a half chewed on film canister under a spruce in 100,000 acres of spruce' idea, but if the puzzle page indicates this information you have nothing to be upset about.

 

You'd be amazed how many people completely ignore the cache listing altogether - I have countless examples in my email box where someone has flamed me over something that was listed right there on the cache listing. Comments like "I hate rock hides", or, my favourite was the gentleman that bushwhacked 1km through bogs to get to a cache that had the word "trails" in the title, and a posted trailhead.

 

I agree with Res2100 - I love to get out there and see what people have come up with. My typical caching day involves loading a bunch of caches in the GPS and hitting "find nearest" repeatedly until I'm done for the day. I'm quite thankful that we have thousands upon thousands of hides within a day's drive of home. It means I can go caching every weekend, with friends.

 

One of my favourite hiders is based in Erie, PA. He goes by the name of GoldSnoop and has some diabolical micros. Do I get pleasure out of "beating him". Not necessarily.... but I'm continually amazed at how he can hide something in plain sight and I'll ignore it because I'm expecting a more 'typical' cache container.

 

Another point that bears mentioning is that there are a lot of people placing bad hides with ammo cans. Please, please, please people - remove the military markings! Nothing freaks out a muggle quite as much as spotting someone putting a big box labelled "GRENADES" beside a scenic lookout.

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