Letterbox Hybrid

[+ThirstyMick]

I built a letterbox hybrid cache based off of the Feburary update to the guidelines (and past discussions here on the matter)

Letterbox Hybrid Caches

 

The guideline for this cache type has been clarified. A letterbox hybrid does not *have* to be located at the posted coordinates, like a traditional cache. It can be in the nature of a multicache or puzzle, so long as the letterbox hybrid meets the guidelines for the applicable cache type. GPS use is an integral part of the cache hunt -- a cache cannot be listed if it relies only on letterbox-style clues.

 

Prior to creating my letterboxing & atlasquest accts i'd accidentally found just many boxes near geocaches as i have since intentionally found.

 

I designed the cache after seeing too many (of the accidentally found) letterbox logs signed "Took nothing, left travel bug. Thanks for the cache" intending it to be educational for both geocachers and letterboxers on the nature (not to mention existance) of each others respective games. I was hoping to have a letterbox-y style to the geocache listing.

 

The listed coordinates are a park entrance (parking coords are listed separately) and the hunter is directed to go to a separate set of coordinates within the park (listed as a waypoint). There is a monument at the second waypoint and the hunter makes a decision based upon it. From there, letterboxing style instructions follow.

 

My reviewer does not agree that a GPS is integral to the hunt and that if there are additional waypoints it is a multi not a hybrid (which the above quote seems to indicate is acceptable for a Hybrid)

 

If I made a puzzle out of the info on the monument and said "or you can follow the below instructions to the same spot" would that be acceptable or would that have to be listed as an unknown cache?

 

I'd rather not change my "Final" waypoint to "viewable by everyone" if that is at all possible. Is that my only option for getting the cache published?

 

I'd much rather make my reviewer happy than appeal the decision to Groundspeak; but I'm completely lost on how to go about doing that. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Guyute1210]

I don't know what to tell you, other than my Letterbox that was approved after the guidelines change.

 

I had parking listed, but the starting coords were ~1 hike into the woods to the start of a trail that branched off another. From there, I had the letterbox instructions. From what I can tell, there is no difference from my cache (the letterbox) to a Mystery other than it has the Letterbox stamp in it.

[+ThirstyMick]

I don't know what to tell you, other than my Letterbox that was approved after the guidelines change.

 

I had parking listed, but the starting coords were ~1 hike into the woods to the start of a trail that branched off another. From there, I had the letterbox instructions. From what I can tell, there is no difference from my cache (the letterbox) to a Mystery other than it has the Letterbox stamp in it.

 

Thanks. Mine looks pretty similar to yours (only much less of a hike, it's in a city park) Maybe I should make the starting coordinates the point inside of the park rather than the entrance to the park.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Had mine published with no problems. Coords for a starting point. Letterboxing-type hints to get to the final. Only one person has stamped the log so far, but I'll bring along my stamp when I hunt for yours!

[+palmetto]

I just took a look at your cache. If the coordinates that you have offered as a "question to answer" were at the top of the page (your start cache coords), instead of the park entrance, that might help.

 

It's tough to tell that a gpsr is useful for this cache from your writeup. That's the thing that needs clarifying.

 

If you want to work with your reviewer, that's what you should try and do.

 

Or use appeals@geocaching.com. That's really not being sent to the woodshed, you'll work with some very nice folks. Sometimes when there's been a communications breakdown between cacher and reviewer, it's just time to start over with someone else.

 

But if the notes on the page are all the communication that there has been, I think you might want to continue a bit.

 

If you have a geo buddy, let them read the page. you may know exactly what you mean and how it works, but I'd say the need for a GPS isn't really clear. It reads like you could put that description on the letterboxing site as is.

[+J-Way]

The official rules haven't changed since February, but TPTB made a unilateral decision about how to interpret the rules sometime this summer. These are direct quotes from the "Ask the reviewer" forum on our local cache site.

 

From around the time of the rule change:

You cannot make the posted coordinates for parking because you can find that on a map don't need a GPS'r but the posted coordinates should be on the trail like at the first clue

 

Then last summer:

Latest Up Date on Letter Box Hybrids, this change came from Groundspeak

 

Coordinates to the actual container need to be listed somewhere on the page. Some people choose to do this at the very top of the page, and geocachers have a choice of using the GPS and/or the fun clues.

 

If they are going to use an additional waypoint, it needs to be NOT hidden, so that others can indeed use their GPS if they want to.

 

At a glance, with additional waypoints seekers will know that there is more to this than your traditional cache.

 

Questions, hope I can answer

 

xxx

 

by the way there are only like 800 Letter Box Hybrids listed on the site for the world

According to these quotes, the coordinates:

- cannot be for parking or any other obvious place like at a trail head

- cannot be hidden (like in a hint or in a puzzle-like fashion)

- CAN be for the first "clue" location

 

Every reviewer is different, but it looks like if you changed your listed coordinates to the first clue location, and listed the final location as a waypoint or in plain text (numbers), you should be good.

[+ThirstyMick]

I just took a look at your cache. If the coordinates that you have offered as a "question to answer" were at the top of the page (your start cache coords), instead of the park entrance, that might help.

 

It's tough to tell that a gpsr is useful for this cache from your writeup. That's the thing that needs clarifying.

 

If you want to work with your reviewer, that's what you should try and do.

 

Or use appeals@geocaching.com. That's really not being sent to the woodshed, you'll work with some very nice folks. Sometimes when there's been a communications breakdown between cacher and reviewer, it's just time to start over with someone else.

 

But if the notes on the page are all the communication that there has been, I think you might want to continue a bit.

 

If you have a geo buddy, let them read the page. you may know exactly what you mean and how it works, but I'd say the need for a GPS isn't really clear. It reads like you could put that description on the letterboxing site as is.

 

Thank you for looking at it Palmetto. I'll clarify that and change the starting position, and spend some more time on the wording before attempting further discussion..

 

I really wasn't sure what to do because I had thought that I'd asked what I could do to make it work and if it was okay to not list the final coordinates; and the answer I got seemed to be that it's not open for discussion unless I go to Groundspeak. But re-reading the email I sent earlier; I didn't ask as many questions as I thought I had, at least not very clearly. I may just have given myself the same answer...

 

thanks for giving me a place to start in making it work; another opinion is definitely a good idea.

 

 

Harry, I'll definitely add another stamp to your logbook the next time I get myself into manhattan!

[CoyoteRed]

I designed the cache after seeing too many (of the accidentally found) letterbox logs signed "Took nothing, left travel bug. Thanks for the cache" intending it to be educational for both geocachers and letterboxers on the nature (not to mention existance) of each others respective games. I was hoping to have a letterbox-y style to the geocache listing.

I'm not so sure the issues you see are caused by folks not knowing just what is a letterbox. If I'm correct then the route you are taking will not have much of an impact.

 

Don't get me wrong, we've got our share of stories of folks not knowing and they trade out the stamp.

 

I think what you're seeing is more a problem of folks not paying attention to the object they find. Geocaching.com has many more hunts listed than any other similar hobby site--quite possibly combined. The chances that folks will accidentally run into another container listed on another site is slim, but as you've seen, not impossible. Given this notion, participants are not always accustomed to looking to see which container they find. They're used to there only being one container within 528', something few other sites even mention much less try to enforce. They are also used to containers and logbooks not being marked. With so many not marked, folks stop looking for it if they ever did. They never realize what they've found is not what they were looking for.

 

So, while putting out a hybrid will help educate the geocaching public on the subject of letterboxes, placing one does little to nothing in solving the issue you mention. Well, not unless you educate them directly.

 

We've converted our hybrids that were closer to true letterboxes to pure letterboxes and archived the listings here. Personally, I think it's better to educate those who are interested in letterboxing to send them to an actual letterboxing site so they can learn the real way to do a letterbox.

 

With all that said, good luck on your hybrid.

[+Quiggle]

Backing up Palmetto -- you have to remember that geocaching is a GPS-based sport. Include some sort of GPS usage in your LBH and you're good to go. Making the posted coords for the monument is a good way to start. Good luck with your LBH once it's up and running!

[+ThirstyMick]

I designed the cache after seeing too many (of the accidentally found) letterbox logs signed "Took nothing, left travel bug. Thanks for the cache" intending it to be educational for both geocachers and letterboxers on the nature (not to mention existance) of each others respective games. I was hoping to have a letterbox-y style to the geocache listing.

I'm not so sure the issues you see are caused by folks not knowing just what is a letterbox. If I'm correct then the route you are taking will not have much of an impact.

 

Don't get me wrong, we've got our share of stories of folks not knowing and they trade out the stamp.

 

I think what you're seeing is more a problem of folks not paying attention to the object they find. Geocaching.com has many more hunts listed than any other similar hobby site--quite possibly combined. The chances that folks will accidentally run into another container listed on another site is slim, but as you've seen, not impossible. Given this notion, participants are not always accustomed to looking to see which container they find. They're used to there only being one container within 528', something few other sites even mention much less try to enforce. They are also used to containers and logbooks not being marked. With so many not marked, folks stop looking for it if they ever did. They never realize what they've found is not what they were looking for.

 

So, while putting out a hybrid will help educate the geocaching public on the subject of letterboxes, placing one does little to nothing in solving the issue you mention. Well, not unless you educate them directly.

 

We've converted our hybrids that were closer to true letterboxes to pure letterboxes and archived the listings here. Personally, I think it's better to educate those who are interested in letterboxing to send them to an actual letterboxing site so they can learn the real way to do a letterbox.

 

With all that said, good luck on your hybrid.

 

The last Letterbox I found with a TB in it actually said what it was in bold letters on the outside. I guess somebody wasn't paying attention. Or figured "letterbox" was a weird nickname for cache? Either way, I tried to give an explanation of both on their respective sites and said things like not keeping TBs, etc.. At the very least, I guess it's something different!

 

 

But not too different I reworked it a bit, and will continue to until it's good. Thanks for helping out with a place to start I appreciate it a lot!

[+Rattlebars]

This one by us is a "hybrid" letterbox kinda sorta. It works as a mystrery cache tho as we have no means to collect stamps. The kids love this one and find it more often than the parents. Some of the logs are quite hilarious!

 

This one was hard to get approved, but keystone was generous. This cache has been fun for many.

 

Captian Thirteen's Lost Doubloons

 

[+briansnat]

This one by us is a "hybrid" letterbox kinda sorta. It works as a mystrery cache tho as we have no means to collect stamps.

 

Your cache has a logbook, right? That's all you need to "collect" stamps.

[+ThirstyMick]

This one by us is a "hybrid" letterbox kinda sorta. It works as a mystrery cache tho as we have no means to collect stamps. The kids love this one and find it more often than the parents. Some of the logs are quite hilarious!

 

this one looks like a fun adventure! like brian said, any logbook will do for stamping!

 

I went to about 10 different stores though, looking for an unlined logbook before finally just making a cover for one of those little unlined scratch note pads!

[+ODragon]

I would suggest just writing to appeals@Groundspeak.com, explaining the situation and seeing what they have to say. They may agree with you and/or give you more help on what to do to make it publishable.

[+briansnat]

This one by us is a "hybrid" letterbox kinda sorta. It works as a mystrery cache tho as we have no means to collect stamps. The kids love this one and find it more often than the parents. Some of the logs are quite hilarious!

 

this one looks like a fun adventure! like brian said, any logbook will do for stamping!

 

I went to about 10 different stores though, looking for an unlined logbook before finally just making a cover for one of those little unlined scratch note pads!

 

Now how are geocachers going to sign a book without lines?

[+ThirstyMick]

haha true, my writing is bad enough with the lines!

 

there were two books until i realized there was too much stuff! (and the history should probably be shared)

[+Renegade Knight]

I built a letterbox hybrid cache based off of the Feburary update to the guidelines (and past discussions here

 

Unfortunatly the Letterbox Hybrid is a meaningless cache type under the current guidelines.

Edited October 26, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[+CacheDrone]

I built a letterbox hybrid cache based off of the Feburary update to the guidelines (and past discussions here

 

Unfortunatly the Letterbox Hybrid is a meaningless cache type under the current guidelines.

 

This is simply not true. LBH is different from the other three types of physical hides but often players either miss the GPS usage aspect or create the offsets in ways that makes it more of a multi or unknown class for listing.

 

My guess is that a proper LBH is one of the hardest cache types to either get listed or understand the subtle differences from the other types of listings. When they are done right though they can be very enjoyable.

 

Often players create multi-caches and submit them as unknown/puzzle/mystery caches. That doesn't mean that multi-caches are also meaningless. It means we need to show the differences to avoid players using the wrong type. Sometimes that is by reviewers pointing out how a listing needs to be updated to meet the requirements for a certain type.

[+Renegade Knight]

I built a letterbox hybrid cache based off of the Feburary update to the guidelines (and past discussions here

 

Unfortunatly the Letterbox Hybrid is a meaningless cache type under the current guidelines.

 

This is simply not true. LBH is different from the other three types of physical hides but often players either miss the GPS usage aspect or create the offsets in ways that makes it more of a multi or unknown class for listing....

 

It's a matter of perspective. A LB has a certain type of hunt that has become traditional. It's more than just the stamp. In my view the LBH should match that expereince as closely as possible. Thus the LBH coordiant would be for the starting point. At that point the LBH and LB would then be the same kind of hunt.

 

That's simple.

 

This site doesnt' care about that for listing. Instead they want the GPS to be integral and the perfect LBH would be a LB with coords posted for the Box. In other words a regular cache that just happens to have a stamp in it. Nothing special and something better handled via a Letterbox attribute on a regular cache than having the LBH to begin with.

 

When you create a multi cache, puzzle etc. They are still just caches and the box just has a stamp it it making it a LBH. The way this site treats all LBH's they are not different than the regular cache catagories, except for the cross listing (or cross use since not all LB's are listed online).

[+Quiggle]

It's a matter of perspective. A LB has a certain type of hunt that has become traditional. It's more than just the stamp. In my view the LBH should match that expereince as closely as possible. Thus the LBH coordiant would be for the starting point. At that point the LBH and LB would then be the same kind of hunt.

 

That's simple.

If one of those appears in my review queue, I list it because the guidelines tell me I can.

 

Guidelines before February 21, 2007:

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for traditional caches and therefore must contain a logbook.

 

Guidelines as of February 21, 2007:

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt.

 

Note the subtle difference (underscore added). You still need GPS (this is a geocaching website) but it doesn't have to be for the box. There was quite a bit of discussion about this a while back and the guidelines were clarified to open up more possibilities for the LBH type.

 

This site doesnt' care about that for listing. Instead they want the GPS to be integral and the perfect LBH would be a LB with coords posted for the Box.

See above. It's up to the hider whether they want it to be a simple "here are the posted coords" type clue or a more elaborate story. I've published both, and will continue to do so as long as the guidelines allow me to or until my boss tells me not to.

[+briansnat]

It's a matter of perspective. A LB has a certain type of hunt that has become traditional. It's more than just the stamp. In my view the LBH should match that expereince as closely as possible. Thus the LBH coordiant would be for the starting point. At that point the LBH and LB would then be the same kind of hunt.

 

This is a common misunderstanding of the point of a LB hybrid. There is (nor was there ever) no requirement that a LB hybrid should give you a letterbox type experience. It simply means that it is a geocache AND a letterbox, not necessarily a geocache that is LIKE a letterbox.

 

The point of LB hybrids is so geocachers can hide geocaches and make them available to letterboxers and letterboxers can hide letterboxes and make them available to geocachers.

 

Actually (as Quiggle pointed out) the guidelines have been loosened somewhat to allow for an offset cache using letterbox-like clues as long as GPS use is involved somewhere. Before that, according to the guidelines the cache had to be directly referenced by coordinates, even though in practice that wasn't always the case.

Edited October 29, 2007 by briansnat

[CoyoteRed]

Unfortunatly the Letterbox Hybrid is a meaningless cache type under the current guidelines.

This is simply not true. LBH is different from the other three types of physical hides but often players either miss the GPS usage aspect or create the offsets in ways that makes it more of a multi or unknown class for listing.

Not to put words in RK's mouth, but I think he's talking about the aspect some reviewers use that require the listed coordinates to be that of the final container thus completely skipping the letterbox-style clues. I don't think that is what the guidelines mean even though it used to say something to the effect of "...and they must conform to the guidelines for traditional geocaches and...". This passage was rewritten to the present "...and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and..." to avoid any confusion. The word "traditional" in the original passage meant that the hybrid had to conform to all the standard of any other cache and not the cache-type of "traditional." Many folks, including reviewers were confused.

 

With the present reading of the guidelines there should no longer be any reviewer requiring the listing coordinates to be that of the final container.

 

My guess is that a proper LBH is one of the hardest cache types to either get listed or understand the subtle differences from the other types of listings. When they are done right though they can be very enjoyable.

Actually, I don't think it's that hard at all if you just remember that locating something, anything, by grid coordinates (not unnecessarily via a GPS as many folks still cache sans GPS) and that something by not easily describable. This is were most folks get tripped up. While a night cache certainly does allow a parking lot be the anchor of the hunt and then simply follow glints the rest of the way, you can't do that with a hybrid. The grid coordinates has to describe something not easily locatable like a parking lot, library, court house, named fountain or statuary, etc. It can be a certain tree, bend in the trail, etc.

 

From there the clues can be anything just like a regular box. Heck, I've been wanting to put out a hunt that took you to a location where you had to listen for wind chimes--"... and then follow the sound of the wind."

[+ODragon]

While a night cache certainly does allow a parking lot be the anchor of the hunt and then simply follow glints the rest of the way, you can't do that with a hybrid.

 

For what it's worth, a parking lot isn't enough for a night cache. The posted coords should be for the first tack (or a place to see it from), a ways from the actual parking lot.

[+Quiggle]

While a night cache certainly does allow a parking lot be the anchor of the hunt and then simply follow glints the rest of the way, you can't do that with a hybrid.

For what it's worth, a parking lot isn't enough for a night cache. The posted coords should be for the first tack (or a place to see it from), a ways from the actual parking lot.

Right.

 

But let's be careful not to veer this topic onto night caches.

[+Renegade Knight]

It's a matter of perspective. A LB has a certain type of hunt that has become traditional. It's more than just the stamp. In my view the LBH should match that expereince as closely as possible. Thus the LBH coordiant would be for the starting point. At that point the LBH and LB would then be the same kind of hunt.

 

This is a common misunderstanding of the point of a LB hybrid. There is (nor was there ever) no requirement that a LB hybrid should give you a letterbox type experience. It simply means that it is a geocache AND a letterbox, not necessarily a geocache that is LIKE a letterbox. ...

 

I understand the difference. That's why I put "In my view" to express that the LBH should conform as closely as possible. The present guidelines would allow Quiggle to publish the one I would do (provided my start point met some other criteria for some other kind of cache) which would match the LB experience. But would also allow someone else to just publish a cache that happens to have a stamp that has nothing whatsoever to do with the LB style. Two completley different cache expereinces with one listing. Because of the reality that you pointed out, LBH has no consistancy and it is therefore meaningless as a tool to filter cache hunts for those who like the LB style but also like this site.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Not to put words in RK's mouth, but I think he's talking about the aspect some reviewers use that require the listed coordinates to be that of the final container thus completely skipping the letterbox-style clues. I don't think that is what the guidelines mean...

 

That sums it up. I forgot that some reviewers do allow for the flexability to do a LBH right while others are much less flexable in that they require that the LB part be stripped out as part of making them match this sites spin on caching.

[+riviouveur]

A letterbox is:

- a box with a stamp

- typically found with "treasure-hunt" clues

 

A letterbox hybrid geocache must have a stamp, but must be otherwise listable as a geocache. You could make a good case for the LH icon being just an attribute ("has a stamp, bring your letterboxing book"), which would then allow the cache type to be shown (Trad, Multi, Mystery). But apart from working out which type of cache it is - which the reviewer will gladly do - the "letterbox" aspect which interests us is the presence of the stamp, not the treasure hunt, at least in its pure (solvable with 19th century technology) form.

 

What often happens is that an existing letterbox gets cross-listed at geocaching.com, treasure hunt and all. That's fine in principle, but you can't simply copy/paste the treasure hunt. You have to modify at least one clue to make GPSr usage mandatory (within reason, it come down to "if I didn't have a GPSr, would I be able to find the cache?").

 

There are dozens and dozens of grandfathered exceptions to this, and doubtless a few more will get through. Reviewers are human, busy, unpaid, and don't get military-style briefings on every detail of operational policy every morning at 0600. Everyone's mileage *will* vary.

[CoyoteRed]

While a night cache certainly does allow a parking lot be the anchor of the hunt and then simply follow glints the rest of the way, you can't do that with a hybrid.

For what it's worth, a parking lot isn't enough for a night cache. The posted coords should be for the first tack (or a place to see it from), a ways from the actual parking lot.

Right.

 

But let's be careful not to veer this topic onto night caches.

I don't think it was getting steered away so much as being contrasted with.

 

It's good to know that loophole was closed with night caches as well. Something which folks won't get confused as to "well, night caches can do it."

 

The primary point is the hunt has to have GPS (grids coordinates) use that describes a not-readily-describable location.

[+spotter/g]

Hey I saw you were looking for an unlined log-book, but had to use a scratch pad. If you are still intrested in a more long lasting log-book, I would sugest looking for an art supply store for a small sketch book. It would be niclely spiral bound so it will last. It will also have nice thick paper. Hope you get it listed, I love looking for letterbox hybreds.

[+ThirstyMick]

Ended up going to appeals; now I'm trying to decide whether to change the coordinates or just archive it :\

 

I guess they're going to change the guidelines back? I don't know. Anyhow, thanks for all your advice.

 

"I am sorry but your understanding of the current guidelines is

incorrect the posted coordinates of the cache must be the location of

the cache. Letterbox hybrids are not meant to be puzzle caches. They

are a combination of a traditional and a letterbox. The posted

coordinates must be the location of the container."

[CoyoteRed]

Ended up going to appeals; now I'm trying to decide whether to change the coordinates or just archive it :\

 

I guess they're going to change the guidelines back? I don't know. Anyhow, thanks for all your advice.

 

"I am sorry but your understanding of the current guidelines is

incorrect the posted coordinates of the cache must be the location of

the cache. Letterbox hybrids are not meant to be puzzle caches. They

are a combination of a traditional and a letterbox. The posted

coordinates must be the location of the container."

 

Could still be your reviewer doesn't understand the subtle differences as indicated in Quiggle's post above. Now, depending on the personally of your reviewer you might win the battle and loss the war. In other words, don't tick off your reviewer. Let it go as a hybrid with the listed coords directly to the final is pretty darn useless as a cache-type, if you ask me.

[+ThirstyMick]

Ended up going to appeals; now I'm trying to decide whether to change the coordinates or just archive it :\

 

I guess they're going to change the guidelines back? I don't know. Anyhow, thanks for all your advice.

 

"I am sorry but your understanding of the current guidelines is

incorrect the posted coordinates of the cache must be the location of

the cache. Letterbox hybrids are not meant to be puzzle caches. They

are a combination of a traditional and a letterbox. The posted

coordinates must be the location of the container."

 

Could still be your reviewer doesn't understand the subtle differences as indicated in Quiggle's post above. Now, depending on the personally of your reviewer you might win the battle and loss the war. In other words, don't tick off your reviewer. Let it go as a hybrid with the listed coords directly to the final is pretty darn useless as a cache-type, if you ask me.

 

I agree that it's pretty useless as a cache-type... But unfortunately that's the response I got from appeals

I'm still thinking about what to do...

[+ThirstyMick]

..double post

Edited November 9, 2007 by ThirstyMick

[J.A.R.S.]

Here are the guidelines for mystery of puzzle caches:

 

For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 kilometres) away from the true cache location.

Note that the coordinates can take the player to a parking lot. Why treat letterboxes differently?

 

In February the guidelines were changed to make it clearer:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...t&p=2727360

"The reviewers talked about this and asked Groundspeak to clarify what they meant. The new guidelines say that a letterbox hybrid doesn't have to be a traditional cache located at the posted coordinates. We're happy to have better guidance, and this gives more flexibility for creative caches."

But apparently the guidelines are still as clear as mud.

[+ThirstyMick]

Here are the guidelines for mystery of puzzle caches:

 

For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 kilometres) away from the true cache location.

Note that the coordinates can take the player to a parking lot. Why treat letterboxes differently?

 

In February the guidelines were changed to make it clearer:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...t&p=2727360

"The reviewers talked about this and asked Groundspeak to clarify what they meant. The new guidelines say that a letterbox hybrid doesn't have to be a traditional cache located at the posted coordinates. We're happy to have better guidance, and this gives more flexibility for creative caches."

But apparently the guidelines are still as clear as mud.

 

Yeah I don't know; but I'm going to stop fighting it. I don't want to tick anyone off. Not worth getting on my reviewers bad side