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new public cache not allowed due to premium


hoosierdoc

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We placed a new cache and the "Reviewer" denied it because it's 100 yards from a "premium" cache. I think this is ridiculous. It takes a modest amount of effort to place a cache and then to be told it's not allowed because it's close to something that you can't see... .that's just stupid.

 

I see premium and standard geocaching as separate. This is not class envy, it's just common sense. Who cares how close ones are to each other. It's the content and the hunt, not the distance!

 

GC16TZ1 is my cache name. Someone named Mountain Climber is putting the nix on it. Puh-thetic.

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We placed a new cache and the "Reviewer" denied it because it's 100 yards from a "premium" cache. I think this is ridiculous. It takes a modest amount of effort to place a cache and then to be told it's not allowed because it's close to something that you can't see... .that's just stupid.

 

I see premium and standard geocaching as separate. This is not class envy, it's just common sense. Who cares how close ones are to each other. It's the content and the hunt, not the distance!

 

GC16TZ1 is my cache name. Someone named Mountain Climber is putting the nix on it. Puh-thetic.

Sorry for you loss.

 

Can you move it a couple hundred feet?

 

BTW, I'm curious about your comment that your cache wasn't allowed "because it's too close to something that you can't see". Aren't you a premium member? Why couldn't you 'see' the MOC?

Edited by sbell111
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can we move it? Of course. Do we want to? No. The concept of disallowing public caches because a premium cache is too close is ridiculous. We would not over-saturate which is why we picked this place (none within a mile) and then we're told there are about 7 in the same park.

 

We are now premium members so crap like this doesn't happen again.

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If there was a puzzle cache final 100 yds away, you wouldn't "see" that one either, but the cache saturation rules would still be in place.

 

When I search for caches, I never notice what's a member's only and what's a normal cache, so for me, the 2 caches would be way too close together.

 

As sbell said, just move your cache a bit. I know it's a little frustrating to go back out and move it, but those are the guidelines.

 

I once placed a cache in a great spot after I spent an hour wandering around the trails to find just the right placement. I got home, submitted the page and then realized it was 500' from an existing cache (forgot to load that one)....so, I had to trek back out there and move it to another spot. No biggie...I got to take another walk in the woods.

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Even as a non-member, you can search against your coordinates here, and it would tell you if there was a PM cache that was too close.

 

At 100 ft, it's very possible (in most cases) that someone would find the wrong cache. It's a reasonable restriction.

Edited by Dinoprophet
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Hey,

 

Sorry to hear your first hide experience didn't go as planned. I too have had similar experiences on different cache hides...(too close to stage(s) of a multi, puzzle...etc). Just work with your reviewer and get the whole thing straightened out. Don't blame Mountain Climber...he is just a volunteer and trying to do the job by following the guidlines set forth by Groundspeak. The reviewer in Minnesota (SurferJoe) worked with me in getting a cache published that at first was too close to a multi in a small park...at least in my experince, reviewers want to work with cachers.

 

Just remember that reviewers are volunteers and they are just trying to do their job. Don't take it personal.

 

I will admit, one of the main reasons I first became a Premium Member was in order to see Member Only Caches (mainly because one was in a park in my area that I wanted to hide a cache in...so I needed to know where the cache was). Now, I have continued to remain a Premium Member because of the bonus stuff (like PQs and Bookmarks and what not).

 

Yes, placing a cache can take alot of work and it is upsetting to be told it can't go where you want it...just work with your reviewer and move the cache as needed. Sometimes secondary locations turn out to be better then what one may have wanted in the first place.

 

Later,

ArcherDragoon

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We placed a new cache and the "Reviewer" denied it because it's 100 yards from a "premium" cache. I think this is ridiculous. It takes a modest amount of effort to place a cache and then to be told it's not allowed because it's close to something that you can't see... .that's just stupid.

 

I see premium and standard geocaching as separate. This is not class envy, it's just common sense. Who cares how close ones are to each other. It's the content and the hunt, not the distance!

 

GC16TZ1 is my cache name. Someone named Mountain Climber is putting the nix on it. Puh-thetic.

The guidelines you read (you checked the box that said you read them when you submitted the cache) don't give any priority to Premium vs non-Premium member caches. Cachers can turn that on or off, so the guidelines must be enforced in a uniform manner or else we'd have to keep track of which ones were PM and which ones aren't after they're already published.

 

Thank you for placing a cache. Even though it's archived, if you choose to move it to a new spot that meets the guidelines, send an email to Mountain Climber and they'll take care of it for you from there. I'm sure those in your area will be eager to find it once it's up and running!

 

:)

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We would not over-saturate which is why we picked this place (none within a mile) and then we're told there are about 7 in the same park.

Wow. If there are that many other premium member caches in just that park alone, then it's probably good that you became a premium member in any case. :) Perhaps that's the source of your frustrations, and not the guidelines.

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We placed a new cache and the "Reviewer" denied it because it's 100 yards from a "premium" cache. I think this is ridiculous. It takes a modest amount of effort to place a cache and then to be told it's not allowed because it's close to something that you can't see... .that's just stupid.

 

I see premium and standard geocaching as separate. This is not class envy, it's just common sense. Who cares how close ones are to each other. It's the content and the hunt, not the distance!

 

GC16TZ1 is my cache name. Someone named Mountain Climber is putting the nix on it. Puh-thetic.

 

Let me get this straight. You placed a cache that violates the guidelines, then you come here to complain and call the reviewer names because he enforced the guideline like he is supposed to? :)

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can we move it? Of course. Do we want to? No. The concept of disallowing public caches because a premium cache is too close is ridiculous. We would not over-saturate which is why we picked this place (none within a mile) and then we're told there are about 7 in the same park.

 

We are now premium members so crap like this doesn't happen again.

 

Sounds like problem solved. Glad to see you were able to get a quick resolution.

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You are trying to draw a comaprison that has no valid support. Premium member only caches (PMO)are hidden for PMs but have to follow the same set of guideines. Too close is too close - no matter the cache type. The guidelines are clear about this.

 

You will not find 2 sets of guidelines, 1 for PMO and 1 for other. They are one in the same. Don't come in here looking for support of guidelines that do not exist.

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We placed a new cache and the "Reviewer" denied it because it's 100 yards from a "premium" cache. I think this is ridiculous. It takes a modest amount of effort to place a cache and then to be told it's not allowed because it's close to something that you can't see... .that's just stupid.

 

I see premium and standard geocaching as separate. This is not class envy, it's just common sense. Who cares how close ones are to each other. It's the content and the hunt, not the distance!

 

GC16TZ1 is my cache name. Someone named Mountain Climber is putting the nix on it. Puh-thetic.

 

Seems to me that you ARE a Premium Member, unless you placed the cache using a different account. But that still invalidates your assertion that YOU can't see that MO cache 100 yards away.

 

And even if you are not a Premium Member you can see that a MO cache exists somewhere near a ground zero of your choosing at a distance comparable to your site and in the same direction so you should think that you might not be able to place a cache where you want to..

 

I'm more amazed that you know of ALL puzzle solutions and ALL stages of ALL Multi caches that are near where you wanted to place that cache.

 

It will be a sad day when the whole Earth has a cache every 528 feet. Well it's quite a way to 5 billion.

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Sorry no sympathy nor love for your cause here either. As has already been pointed out, there are other nasty invisible things that go thunk in the woods besides PMO caches. Like intermediate and final stages of multi caches and puzzles too.

 

Let's flip this one around. You spent hours planning and executing a most excellent four stage multi cache that gets great logs and reviews. Someone else comes around and drops their first hide only 300' from the final stage of your great and challenging creation. Would you want "Some Puh-thetic volunteer named Mountain Climber" to publish that one? <_<

 

Nah, I didn't think so. Me neither.

 

Welcome to geocaching, get back out in the woods and have fun, and while you are out there, find another great place to hide yours a few hundred feet away from your first choice. :) And enjoy the free chocolate that comes with the Premium Membership. :antenna:

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The problem is with you!

 

You are one of the people that thinks all of this is magic and free...

 

not thinking about the great amount of money it takes to keep this site up!

 

I personally think everyone should have to pay for membership after a brief free trial period.

 

And that no one should be aloud to hide a cache unless they are a paid member!

 

However comma that is just my opinion,

 

Have fun and happy caching!

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Welcome to geocaching, get back out in the woods and have fun, and while you are out there, find another great place to hide yours a few hundred feet away from your first choice. :antenna: And enjoy the free chocolate that comes with the Premium Membership. :)

Mmmm...chocolate. B) My Platinum Membership gift this month was grapes, hand fed to me by mtn-man. <_<

 

:)

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The saturation/proximity guideline is unlike any of the other guidelines. Prior to hiding a cache one can find a location that doesn't prohibit caches; get permission when required; hide it in a way that doesn't require digging with a shovel, trowel, or other pointy object; doesn't deface public or private property; isn't near active railroad tracks, military installation, or potential terrorist target; isn't commercial; and doesn't solicit. But you can't tell if its too close to the final of a puzzle you haven't solved, a stage of a multi you haven't found, or exactly how far it may be from a PMO cache if you're not a a premium member. The only other guideline that might be similar is if you placed your cache in a sensitive area where the land manager didn't make this information public for the very reason that the area would be sensitive to the extra traffic caused just by people knowing it is there.

 

So it is understandable that someone who tried to follow all the guidelines would get upset when their cache is rejected because it is too close to one that they can't see. You are asking for people to follow a guideline that is impossible to follow a priori. You have to go place a cache and let the reviewer reject it.

 

The suggestion has been made to allow user to enter potential coordinates before going out to place their cache to determine if the location is available. However this idea is always shot down as providing a backdoor for finding puzzle caches without solving the puzzle or finding PMO caches without becoming Premium Members (especially if you know the secret to logging them online). Various methods to return a fuzzy answer that would make using the capability less useful as a backdoor have also been turned down as too hard to implement or as being too restrictive by discouraging caches that might still meet the guidelines.

 

Another issue with the proximity guidelines is that it is one that gives the reviewer some discretion. Some reviewers will allow a cache at only 500 ft. instead of 528 ft. And reviewers can allow caches closer if there is some natural or man-made barrier that separates the two locations. This flexibility is another obstacle in implementing a automated system for checking if your location is OK. But the flexibility may also help in cases like the OPs. Perhaps the reviewers could look at caches that are close to puzzles, multis, or PMO caches and decide that in some instances the cache would not cause a problem either with it being so close that the wrong cache might be found or with the land manager perceiving that there is a saturation issue of too many caches in an area and approve the cache if the hider followed all the other guidelines. Clearly there would still have to be limits and some people would still get their cache was turned down, but at least the reviewers would be able to sound more sympathetic by indicating that used laxer guidelines for this cache recognizing the difficulty in complying with this guideline.

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The suggestion has been made to allow user to enter potential coordinates before going out to place their cache to determine if the location is available. However this idea is always shot down as providing a backdoor for finding puzzle caches without solving the puzzle or finding PMO caches without becoming Premium Members (especially if you know the secret to logging them online). Various methods to return a fuzzy answer that would make using the capability less useful as a backdoor have also been turned down as too hard to implement or as being too restrictive by discouraging caches that might still meet the guidelines.

 

As I said above, this can already be done for MO caches (traditionals). Do a search using coordinates, and it will tell you how far away any cache is, including MO caches. This doesn't help for puzzles or multis, of course.

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I think what he meant about this not happening again is that when he does a query he will see all the caches in the area so will be able to pick a spot that meets guidelines, although his statement "so this crap doesn't happen again" doesn't seem to indicate he is accepting that all the blame is his.

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can we move it? Of course. Do we want to? No. The concept of disallowing public caches because a premium cache is too close is ridiculous. We would not over-saturate which is why we picked this place (none within a mile) and then we're told there are about 7 in the same park.

 

We are now premium members so crap like this doesn't happen again.

I'm concerned. And curious. How could you not know there are seven caches in the same park? How did you know there are "none within a mile"?

 

The only way that is possible to not know about 7 caches in one park is if they are all the final stages of multis and/or mystery caches. And even then, if there are seven multis or mysteries within 2 or 3 miles of a place you want to place a cache, you need to try to find them before you try to put out a cache. Or at least check your coords with a reviewer before proceeding. A bit of experience will teach you that, though.

 

Mountain Climber is your reviewer (mine, too). It pays to get off on the right foot with your reviewer. He is an awesome person, and works with us cachers to try to get caches out there. You will like working with him.

 

We've probably all tried to place a cache too near another one. It happens. You get home, you plug in your coords to check them, and "uh oh, another cache shows up 400 feet away. Dang, gotta go back and move it." (Yes, a premium member cache will show up when you do that. You won't get the coords if you aren't a PM, but it will show up in the list of nearest caches, with the distance to the cache listed).

 

Say, I'd like to know what that park is....I do some caching up your way (judging from the caches you have done recently) when I am in town for conferences. I would love to visit a park with 7 caches in one spot.

Edited by Neos2
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can we move it? Of course. Do we want to? No. The concept of disallowing public caches because a premium cache is too close is ridiculous. We would not over-saturate which is why we picked this place (none within a mile) and then we're told there are about 7 in the same park.

 

We are now premium members so crap like this doesn't happen again.

I'm concerned. And curious. How could you not know there are seven caches in the same park? How did you know there are "none within a mile"?

 

The only way that is possible to not know about 7 caches in one park is if they are all the final stages of multis and/or mystery caches. And even then, if there are seven multis or mysteries within 2 or 3 miles of a place you want to place a cache, you need to try to find them before you try to put out a cache. Or at least check your coords with a reviewer before proceeding. A bit of experience will teach you that, though.

 

Mountain Climber is your reviewer (mine, too). It pays to get off on the right foot with your reviewer. He is an awesome person, and works with us cachers to try to get caches out there. You will like working with him.

 

We've probably all tried to place a cache too near another one. It happens. You get home, you plug in your coords to check them, and "uh oh, another cache shows up 400 feet away. Dang, gotta go back and move it." (Yes, a premium member cache will show up when you do that. You won't get the coords if you aren't a PM, but it will show up in the list of nearest caches, with the distance to the cache listed).

 

Say, I'd like to know what that park is....I do some caching up your way (judging from the caches you have done recently) when I am in town for conferences. I would love to visit a park with 7 caches in one spot.

I think that he was inferring that the other caches are Premium Member caches. But like you said, all that needs to be done is to check nearest caches to those coords and he would have seen that there were quite a few, unlike the "none within a mile" that he said.

 

Unfortunately, it's just a case of someone not quite researching everything properly, then because of frustration, blaming the reviewer. The reviewer is just doing what he's supposed to do, and that's the exact opposite of pathetic. It would be pathetic if the the reviewer were to allow anything, just because the cache placer said they put a lot of effort into a cache and that it was unfair that they needed to follow the guidelines. If that happened every time, this game would get waaaay out of hand. I'm glad that we have a bunch of dedicated volunteers that spend the time making sure that we all can have an organized, fun sport to enjoy. :huh:

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We were premium members when we placed out first cache. We waited until we had found 100 caches before hiding our first. We read all the guidelines. We hunted and found the perfect spot for our first cache. It took twice to submit our cache listing (I took too long to fill in all the blanks and I timed out). Then our cache was denied. WHY you say? Because it was too close to another cache (495 yards) DOH!

 

We trudged back to our cache.. walked another 600 yards... and found a new hiding spot. Done.. it was that easy!

 

Now we have 25 hides. We ALWAYS load all the geocaches in our area into our GPS BEFORE we go looking for a new location for a new cache. Since the first one we have never had any problems with hiding a new cache close to an existing one.

 

Our reviewer was very pleasant and helped us to hide our first cache following the guidelines He/she has remained a wonderful point of contact for information regarding guidelines. If we ever have a chance to meet him/her we will buy a beer/coffee/ soda for him/her.

 

Work with your reviewer and stop getting your underwear in a knot because YOU made a mistake in placing your first cache.

 

It does not matter whether you are a PM or a regular member or even a Platinum member on how the guidelines are followed. We all follow the same guidelines. Mmmm.. now where is my chocolate? :huh:

Edited by Team FIREBOY
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ok... apparently my point isn't getting across. Maybe it's just that the site isn't very good. When we were public members, we searched for caches (probably 10 times) in the area where we put them. These never showed up. When I was told there are two close to it, I was pissed. Now that we're premium members, I see the other caches.

 

How are public members supposed to know where NOT to place a cache if the premium ones aren't shown? I say... make it separate. 500' from each public cache, and 500' from each premium cache. Separate tiers. If you find the wrong cache, who cares. That's why you put the ID on the box and log.

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Let's flip this one around. You spent hours planning and executing a most excellent four stage multi cache that gets great logs and reviews. Someone else comes around and drops their first hide only 300' from the final stage of your great and challenging creation. Would you want "Some Puh-thetic volunteer named Mountain Climber" to publish that one? :huh:

 

 

I couldn't care less. In order to log the final entry, you should have to log each individual stage. It's the same as in order to win a marathon you have to cross each checkpoint. I think it's ridiculous that there is no secret code in each cache that you have to enter online in order to record the find.

 

I dunno... this just seems like a good concept that was piecemealed together quickly and needs a MAJOR overhaul of rules

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I think what he meant about this not happening again is that when he does a query he will see all the caches in the area so will be able to pick a spot that meets guidelines, although his statement "so this crap doesn't happen again" doesn't seem to indicate he is accepting that all the blame is his.

 

will someone please explain how I am supposed to know where something is that I can't see? I still can't get past this. Is it my fault that it didn't tell me a cache was there? Again... this is part of the problem. A lot of you people simply go along blindly with whatever the rules are and don't give a single thought as to whether they make any sense or are reasonable. You're the types of people who go through 1000' feet of roping at an amuesment park when there's no one in line.

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What was a good concept that was "piecemealed together" very quickly? I'm not sure I follow.

 

Also, if there is a "major" overhaul of rules, isn't it then a different game? Sounds like a niche that could be filled by someone passionate about it....

 

*Edited to add question mark.*

Edited by paulandstacey
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One could argue the exact same about both puzzle and multi caches. You cannot see where the final is, and there's the very distinct possibility that when you place a cache that the final to one is too close to yours.

 

I go with the theory of 'Oh well, let's try round two somewhere else'. Might I suggest you take that path instead of insulting the site, reviewers, and guidelines.

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ok... apparently my point isn't getting across. Maybe it's just that the site isn't very good. When we were public members, we searched for caches (probably 10 times) in the area where we put them. These never showed up. When I was told there are two close to it, I was pissed. Now that we're premium members, I see the other caches.

 

How are public members supposed to know where NOT to place a cache if the premium ones aren't shown? I say... make it separate. 500' from each public cache, and 500' from each premium cache. Separate tiers. If you find the wrong cache, who cares. That's why you put the ID on the box and log.

I don't know how you searched, but as I've said (twice), if you search on your desired coordinates, it will tell you the distance to all cache starting points, no matter if you or the cache is Premium. This will not work for multis or puzzles, but neither will what you're proposing.

 

As for who cares about finding the wrong cache, the person who set up the other cache cares, especially if it's a multi. Just as much as you care that your cache was rejected.

 

Also, if there were two tiers, I believe we would quickly see non-MO caches appearing practically on top of MO caches. There are people who dislike MO caches enough to do that.

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And for the record... I read the rules prior to placing the cache. It said don't place one close to another. My map search did not show any close to there within approx mile based on the scale shown. Under "saturation" it specifically did NOT say "find some coordinate search and make sure there is nothing arond there". It was my assumption that google maps shows the same caches as a coordinate search would. Seems reasonable that you can't search coordinates that you haven't been to yet, doesn't it?

 

Again...this whole thing could be solved by having "premium" caches show up in generalities on google maps. This site should go out of its way to cater towards standard members in order to convince them to become premium members. The way it's setup now... you're an outcast until you cough up $30. How about free premium membership for 30 days and then you default to standard after 30 days unless you re-up.

 

I'm clearly not going to convince anyone, and you're not going to convince me. I did kill the messenger about the caching coordinates, but I think a reviewer should realize that a standard member is running into issues with premium caches and point that out. Saying "fix the distance problem" isn't very helpful. Future hides will be fine since I can now see all the hidden stuff out there.

 

A word to the geocache admins.... read the above suggestions and make it more appealing to initial users. Fortunately I'm stubborn and will stay, but my experience would be enough to turn others away for good.

 

So... let's consider this topic closed. EOF.

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I don't think an overhaul of the rules is needed here.

This has been going on for several years and tens of thousands of geocaches placed.

I beleive each of us has to step up to the plate and accept that it is OUR responsibility to follow and understand the guidelines for hiding caches if we intend to hide one.

Having to move a cache is not convenient, but it's part of placing a hide that sometimes happens.

If you had wanted to be sure of the spot before placing the cache and going to all that trouble first, a quick email to your reviewer asking for a yes/no answer if your coordinates were OK first would have saved you some trouble.

There have been many threads in the forums about this particular topic and how to avoid the exact situation you placed yourself in.

I spent about 2 months researching everything I could and reading everything I could find on the site before placing my first cache. Knowledge is power. And saves a lot of time and inconvenience.

Don't blame the reviewers who are just doing their jobs.

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To use your analogy... a marathon and having to cross each checkpoint.

 

For multi's you have to FIND each stage before going on to another. Have you done any multis? I think not.

 

Does a marathon require each participant to "find" and checkpoint or to "Stop" and get a secret code?

 

By doing a multi you are getting a coordinate to the next stage.. if you find the final then you have been to each stage because most of the time you can't find a final without the info from the stages. There are ALR caches out there that require a "secret code" to be able to claim credit for finding the cache. You would know that if you have been caching long enough. It's experience that is the best teacher. Guidelines don't need to be changed because you are not aware of all the unique characteristics of Geocaching.

 

I get your point about being a "public" member means you don't have access to coordinates for MOC caches. If you had WORKED with your reviewer in placing your cache instead of raising your hackles you could have been helped in placing your new cache enough away from the existing one without becoming a PM.

 

In short..... WORK with your reviewer. They know the guidelines and can help you follow them.

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I dunno... this just seems like a good concept that was piecemealed together quickly and needs a MAJOR overhaul of rules

You may be taking this all too seriously. This is just supposed to be a fun game. There is not supposed a lots of rules that you have to jump through to play the game. The guidelines for placing caches are there for a purpose. I do agree the site could do a better job explaining the rationale behind the guidelines. The saturation/proximity guidelines has at least two reasons. One is to eliminate the possibility of someone finding the "wrong" cache when searching. This is probably the least important. What is more important is to not concentrate too many caches in one area. Some land managers may be concerned that increase traffic in on area cause by a large number of caches could cause problems. The guidelines are enforce by volunteer reviewers who look at the location of your cache to determine if it meets the guidelines. If it doesn't they will tell you why so you can move your cache to correct the problem. The reviewers want to help you get your cache approved.

 

Members Only Caches also have a reason. Premium Memberships are a significant source of revenue for Groundspeak and help run this site. The MOCs were requested by premium members as a way to put out caches to reward those that support the site. Some people also believe that making their caches MOCs helps protect them from "cache maggots" - readers of WIRED magazine and others who thinks its fun to look up a geocache location and either move or steal the geocache. If you really have a park that is so saturated with MOCs that you can find a place to hide a regular cache, then I would agree that rules may need a overhaul. Perhaps MOCs should be restricted by stricter proximity rules so that non-premium members could hide a cache in some places that doesn't have many regular caches.

 

Are you using the maps to find the caches you are looking for? It is true that MOCs do not show up on the maps if you are not a premium member. However if you search for caches using the search for nearest cache link on any page or from the Hide and Seek a Cache page, MOCs do show up and even show the distance from the center point of your search. Before hiding a cache you should use this kind of search to see if there are any MOCs in the area to avoid the problem you had.

 

You have not made a very strong case for changing the guidelines. You may have made a case for a better tutorial for new cache hiders as to how to best attempt to avoid areas where you may come up against the guidelines. But I suspect you might be one of the those people who doesn't read tutorials and just blindly does what he wants and then complains when he can't get it to work. :huh:

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I once placed a multi, took my time finding a great place for each stage, got home and plugged in the coordinates. Whoops, too near another cache so it wasn't approved. But the other cache turned out to be one of my own..D'oh. Who do I get angry at for that one..... :huh:

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