Jump to content

Sour grapes from a TB owner


drat19

Recommended Posts

Once the TB reaches it's goal, the owner can then decide on whether to submit a new goal for the bug, or allow it to roam freely. It's the TB owner's call.

Once a TB is turned out into the wild there is no owner. There is a person who released it but there is no ownership. Ownership denotes control over an object. The one who releases it no longer has any control.

 

Actually I have quite a bit of control over my bug even out in the field, but yes I do have to rely on the good will of others when I ask them to follow the goal I have set down.

 

This 'there is no owner' excuse still doesn't give people permission to do whatever with my bug.

Link to comment

Actually I have quite a bit of control over my bug even out in the field, but yes I do have to rely on the good will of others when I ask them to follow the goal I have set down.

 

This 'there is no owner' excuse still doesn't give people permission to do whatever with my bug.

You do? Like what kind of control do you think you have? Someone takes it out of a cache then what control do you have?

Edited by Wadcutter
Link to comment

Well, for starters I could change the name to "Wadcutter Stole this bug!" :D

 

I'll go into detail about the rights and recourses of a bug owner when I have the time and inclination to type it all up.

 

I'm sure you're thinking that there is no immediate control over how a bug is handled, but the particular point I am making is that this no immediate control by the owner is not an acceptable reason for ignoring the goal.

 

But it seems an acceptable reason to you.

 

 

edit: different word.

Edited by BlueDeuce
Link to comment

Well, for starters I could change the name to "Wadcutter Stole this bug!" :D

 

I'll go into detail about the rights and recourses of a bug owner when I have the time and inclination to type it all up.

 

I'm sure you're thinking that there is no immediate control over how a bug is handled, but the particular point I am making is that this no immediate control by the owner is not an acceptable reason for ignoring the goal.

 

But it seems an acceptable reason to you.

 

edit: different word.

What I'm saying is once the TB is released into the wild you don't have any control over it. You seem to think so but so far you haven't provided anything other than you say so.

Rights? What rights?

Recourse? What recourse?

Simple question - what control do you have over a TB? Doesn't take a dissertation or filing a legal brief to answer. If you want it to go to NYC and someone takes it to LA your TB ends up in LA, ergo, you have no control over it. You can pout and whine that you didn't want your TB in LA but pouting and whining isn't control, it's just annoying.

Stealing at TB left in a cache? HARHARHAR!!! Go back to law school Perry Mason.

Edited by Wadcutter
Link to comment

You're still missing the point. I'm discussing appropriate handling and how people, such as you, base your reasons for what is appropriate, at this time I'm not interested in a separate topic of what is owner control

 

I'll be happy to discuss what is owner control at another time.

 

So until we start having the same conversation it is pointless to continue responding to each other.

Link to comment

You're still missing the point. I'm discussing appropriate handling and how people, such as you, base your reasons for what is appropriate, at this time I'm not interested in a separate topic of what is owner control

I'll be happy to discuss what is owner control at another time.

So until we start having the same conversation it is pointless to continue responding to each other.

There is no "people, such as you, base your reasons for what is appropriate,". Follow along. Reading is fundamental. Reread my posts. I've never said any such thing. What I've said all along is once a TB is released there is no control. Don't try misinterpreting anything I've wrote. You're saying things I never said. However, control of TB is exactly the topic of this thread. Re-read the very first post.

Sorry, but you made the statement you had control over TBs but now when questioned you're trying to weasle out of it by "this isn't the topic". Read the original post. That's exactly what this thread is about.

Since the OP started this thread discussing controlling where a TB goes, and you said "I have quite a bit of control over my bug even out in the field", tell us all how you particularly have control over exactly where the TB goes?

Link to comment

Once the TB reaches it's goal, the owner can then decide on whether to submit a new goal for the bug, or allow it to roam freely. It's the TB owner's call.

Once a TB is turned out into the wild there is no owner. There is a person who released it but there is no ownership. Ownership denotes control over an object. The one who releases it no longer has any control.

 

I disagree. By that logic, whoever picks up the bug becomes the owner, because they are the one in control of it. I own the bugs I have released. I rely on the thoughtfulness of others as I track it's movements. Control has nothing to do with it. Part of the enjoyment of bugs is knowing that others are sharing the game.

 

Imagine playing a game of soccer. It's fun as long as everyone plays the game with the same understanding that people will pass the ball occasionally, and work together with the idea of scoring a goal. The fun ends when a person who is supposed to be on your team decides to run the other way with the ball. Especially when that person does so repeatedly, then gets in a snit when his or her other teammates get fustrated with their version of the game. :)

 

Someone who purposely moves a bug against it's goal, just doesn't "get" the game.

Link to comment
Someone who purposely moves a bug against it's goal, just doesn't "get" the game.

OK, I started this thread, I moved a TB or two "against goal" (out of literally hundreds of TBs moved thousands of miles (as a professional traveling consultant)), let me tell you how much I don't "get" the game:

 

(1) When I started playing over 5 years ago, this game was about finding not-micro-sized containers in the woods, where the primary focus was getting out to locations you wouldn't have otherwise discovered. Cache hides may or may not have been challenging, but the goal was to ultimately ACTUALLY FIND the container, and more often than not without having to fear detection by non-cachers. And one could count on a majority of containers being large enough to actually hold a travel bug (let alone any other trinkets). It's true that one can still play the game that way, but it is also clear that the majority of this game is no longer played this way.

 

(2) When I started playing over 5 years ago, the Travel Bug part of this game was straightforward. You bought TB tags from Groundspeak, and you knew that if you released a TB out to the Geocaching community at large, you did so at your own risk, with no further controi. All you could reasonably hope for was that cachers would log the movements properly, and since our game was more of a subculture and less mass-market than it is now, you had a better chance that most cachers had a "clue" and could learn the basics of correct TB logging without their brains exploding. It's true that one can still play this part of the game that way, but it's also clear that a signficant part of it is no longer played this way.

 

(3) When I started playing over 5 years ago, TB stats were generally legit. You either moved TBs, or logged notes when you "saw" TBs, and that's how your stats were gathered. Soon, competition for these stats overtook the original purpose of TB movement, and "Discovered it" was born. Then, competition for "Icons" became a focus, and the GeoCoin business exploded. Now, instead of GeoEvents being about the oringal intent of cachers socializing and sharing stories and caching experiences and tips, they're primarily about coin sales and the exchanging of lists of Tracking Numbers so that attendees can artificially inflate their stats and icons.

 

You're right. I don't "get" the game anymore. I work to find caches that take me to interesting locations, and I move and correctly log TBs. I just don't get it.

Link to comment

Once a TB is turned out into the wild there is no owner. There is a person who released it but there is no ownership. Ownership denotes control over an object. The one who releases it no longer has any control.

 

That's ridiculous. Of course there is still an owner, and it is the person who created/released the TB. The owner also retains some control over the TB until it is lost or stolen (for example, the owner can change the goal or request that the TB be returned).

Link to comment

Well, for starters I could change the name to "Wadcutter Stole this bug!" :)

 

I'll go into detail about the rights and recourses of a bug owner when I have the time and inclination to type it all up.

 

I'm sure you're thinking that there is no immediate control over how a bug is handled, but the particular point I am making is that this no immediate control by the owner is not an acceptable reason for ignoring the goal.

 

But it seems an acceptable reason to you.

 

edit: different word.

What I'm saying is once the TB is released into the wild you don't have any control over it. You seem to think so but so far you haven't provided anything other than you say so.

Rights? What rights?

Recourse? What recourse?

Simple question - what control do you have over a TB? Doesn't take a dissertation or filing a legal brief to answer. If you want it to go to NYC and someone takes it to LA your TB ends up in LA, ergo, you have no control over it. You can pout and whine that you didn't want your TB in LA but pouting and whining isn't control, it's just annoying.

Stealing at TB left in a cache? HARHARHAR!!! Go back to law school Perry Mason.

 

Every time you park your car outside, you have no "control over it." Does that mean you are no longer the owner?

Link to comment

 

Every time you park your car outside, you have no "control over it." Does that mean you are no longer the owner?

Oh please! If you're going to try to discuss something then at least find a reasonable analogy. Yours isn't even close. Try again.

Once again, please explain to all of us just how much control you actually have over a TB once it's released. If someone doesn't want to take it to where you want it to go what's your recourse? You can pout and whine all you want that you didn't like the direction your TB went but all you are doing is whining anc pouting. Whining and pouting doesn't change anything, it just annoys people.

drat19 is 100% right on target. Good post drat.

Edited by Wadcutter
Link to comment

 

Every time you park your car outside, you have no "control over it." Does that mean you are no longer the owner?

Oh please! If you're going to try to discuss something then at least find a reasonable analogy. Yours isn't even close. Try again.

Once again, please explain to all of us just how much control you actually have over a TB once it's released. If someone doesn't want to take it to where you want it to go what's your recourse? You can pout and whine all you want that you didn't like the direction your TB went but all you are doing is whining anc pouting. Whining and pouting doesn't change anything, it just annoys people.

drat19 is 100% right on target. Good post drat.

 

You are very confused. You seem to equate ownership with "control". They are two totally different things.

Link to comment

You are very confused. You seem to equate ownership with "control". They are two totally different things.

I'm confused? Obviously you're confused because you aren't following the OP's thread. Go back and reread. I'll type slow so you can follow along. "Ownership" in this entire thread has been about the person who places the TB and has made the request that the TB goes to a certain destination. "Control" that is being discussed is when the subsequent TB finders aren't placing the TB where the one who started the TB has asked the TB to go.

Simple enough?

Link to comment

OP thread starter here. I'm not going to get in the middle of y'all's semantic disagreement of "ownership" vs. "control", but I would like to sum up with this:

 

Do we all agree that in the situation where a TB has been taken "farther from goal", but it HAS BEEN PROPERLY LOGGED into the cache where it has been dropped, the TB owner (i.e., the person who purchased the TB tag/tracking # and released it into the Geocaching community at his/her own risk) has the following privileges:

 

(1) May choose to complain that the carrier of the TB carried it "farther from goal" than preferred

 

(2) May choose to publicly defame the carrier of the TB who did so with a forum thread or with unflattering log entries either on the TB page or the cache page where the TB was properly logged

 

(3) May choose to travel to the new location of the TB to retrieve the TB for re-release or re-acquisition because it is of that much personal importance to him/her

 

(4) May choose to accept the fact that "thems the breaks" when a TB is released into the Geocaching community, and should otherwise be thankful that at least the TB was PROPERLY LOGGED as to its movements, and thus is still in legitimate circulation with a CHANCE that it may yet reach its goals

 

What other privileges does the TB owner have?

Link to comment

Sorry Dave, but this Mississippi cacher will have to pitch his tent in the opposing camp. I try to make sure that I move TBs towards their goal - or at least not very far in the opposite direction from their goal. Especially in the case of bugs that have their goal attached to them it is very easy to be a contentious game player and leave it in the cache if you can't help it toward its goal or if you would actually HURT its chances of achieving its goal.

 

I've been bitten by careless or inconsiderate cachers before with my travel bugs. I'm not upset about it, just disappointed, but I would have preferred that the bugs hadn't been moved away from their goal. I've wanted to send a bug to my old house in Texas where I lived when I was in the fifth grade. I asked for pictures of my old house to be posted. I sent one bug out with that goal. It disappeared from the second cache it was placed in and never got out of Mississippi.

 

So I bought another travel bug tag and made another TB with the same goal. This one made it to Louisianna (almost to Texas) when it was picked up and taken to Washington state by a cacher who said the goal wasn't interesting enough. It traveled to Utah before it went missing.

 

So I made a third bug with that goal. Oops! It was taken to Florida (wrong way again), then taken to West Virginia. It's still traveling, so there's still hope it may one day achieve its goal. In the meantime I think I'll send out a couple more. I really would like to see pictures of my old house and refresh my memory.

 

So far, in my experience, this disregard for a travel bug's or geocoin's goal seems to be fairly widespread. Same thing for logging bugs and coins. I wish it wasn't that way, but what can you do about it other than encourage competent cachers (who know the game well enough to be able to determine if they are hurting a bug's chances of reaching its goal) to please treat others' travel bugs with care and respect?

 

That's all I've got to say about that.

Blue skies and happy caching!

Model Citizen - Zero Discipline

Link to comment

Sorry Dave, but this Mississippi cacher will have to pitch his tent in the opposing camp. I try to make sure that I move TBs towards their goal - or at least not very far in the opposite direction from their goal. Especially in the case of bugs that have their goal attached to them it is very easy to be a contentious game player and leave it in the cache if you can't help it toward its goal or if you would actually HURT its chances of achieving its goal.

 

I've been bitten by careless or inconsiderate cachers before with my travel bugs. I'm not upset about it, just disappointed, but I would have preferred that the bugs hadn't been moved away from their goal. I've wanted to send a bug to my old house in Texas where I lived when I was in the fifth grade. I asked for pictures of my old house to be posted. I sent one bug out with that goal. It disappeared from the second cache it was placed in and never got out of Mississippi.

 

So I bought another travel bug tag and made another TB with the same goal. This one made it to Louisianna (almost to Texas) when it was picked up and taken to Washington state by a cacher who said the goal wasn't interesting enough. It traveled to Utah before it went missing.

 

So I made a third bug with that goal. Oops! It was taken to Florida (wrong way again), then taken to West Virginia. It's still traveling, so there's still hope it may one day achieve its goal. In the meantime I think I'll send out a couple more. I really would like to see pictures of my old house and refresh my memory.

 

So far, in my experience, this disregard for a travel bug's or geocoin's goal seems to be fairly widespread. Same thing for logging bugs and coins. I wish it wasn't that way, but what can you do about it other than encourage competent cachers (who know the game well enough to be able to determine if they are hurting a bug's chances of reaching its goal) to please treat others' travel bugs with care and respect?

 

That's all I've got to say about that.

Blue skies and happy caching!

Model Citizen - Zero Discipline

Your points are all well taken even though I don't necessarily agree with all of them, obviously. Where we DO agree, I hope, is that the fact that your bugs went missing has NOT ONE THING to do with the fact that they were carried farther away from Goal. They went missing because of clueless cachers who didn't take the time/effort to learn the basics of TB logging. This could have happened whether your bugs were closer or farther from Goal. I have a 5+ year history of carrying TBs thousands of miles, and every now and then they go against Goal, but they are ALWAYS properly logged. ALWAYS. As I've continued to say, that's all any TB owner can and should expect and hope for once his/her TB is released into the Geocaching community.

Link to comment

I respectfully disagree with drat, wadcutter, et al. I believe that if a TB is properly tagged with a goal via a mission note or tag that is legible, you should respect the TB "purchaser" (I won't even say owner, that is another topic). I do not move every bug I come across. I will move bugs if I can help them toward their goal or if they have no tag or note. If I am able to access internet I will find their goal and try and help them, I have even added notes on many occasions. However, if a bug or coin has no note then there should be no complaint if the item is carried off course. We do not all carry portable wi-fi hubs and palms or laptops with us in the woods. Even if the purchaser has no direct control over the bug any longer we should all be good stewards of our hobby. I am sure that people are most grateful for the miles you put on their bugs drat, but the mission line is there for a reason. Otherwise all bugs might as well just float around randomly accumulating miles, nothing wrong with that, it is a common goal in and of itself.

 

I have two roaming TBs currently, one has a nebulous goal (take pictures of it with cats and let it travel). One is very specific, it wants to visit National Park Units and get passport stamps. This implies that it does not leave the USA, I would be upset if it were to go to Europe for example as it would have no purpose there.

Link to comment

You are very confused. You seem to equate ownership with "control". They are two totally different things.

I'm confused? Obviously you're confused because you aren't following the OP's thread. Go back and reread. I'll type slow so you can follow along. "Ownership" in this entire thread has been about the person who places the TB and has made the request that the TB goes to a certain destination. "Control" that is being discussed is when the subsequent TB finders aren't placing the TB where the one who started the TB has asked the TB to go.

Simple enough?

 

I actually agree that TB owners have little "control" over where their TBs go. I also would not mind if one of my TBs moved "against its goal." So, in this regard, I sympathize with the OP.

 

What I took issue with was your attitude that "TBs have no owner." The logical consequence of such an attitude is that you can steal or destroy any TB that you wish, since "there is no owner." Such an attitude is completely contrary to the "rules" and spirit of geocaching.

 

Understand now?

TBs do have owners. These owners have limited control over the travels of their TB.

Edited by UncleJimbo
Link to comment
Someone who purposely moves a bug against it's goal, just doesn't "get" the game.

OK, I started this thread, I moved a TB or two "against goal" (out of literally hundreds of TBs moved thousands of miles (as a professional traveling consultant)), let me tell you how much I don't "get" the game:

 

(1) When I started playing over 5 years ago, this game was about finding not-micro-sized containers in the woods, where the primary focus was getting out to locations you wouldn't have otherwise discovered. Cache hides may or may not have been challenging, but the goal was to ultimately ACTUALLY FIND the container, and more often than not without having to fear detection by non-cachers. And one could count on a majority of containers being large enough to actually hold a travel bug (let alone any other trinkets). It's true that one can still play the game that way, but it is also clear that the majority of this game is no longer played this way.

 

(2) When I started playing over 5 years ago, the Travel Bug part of this game was straightforward. You bought TB tags from Groundspeak, and you knew that if you released a TB out to the Geocaching community at large, you did so at your own risk, with no further controi. All you could reasonably hope for was that cachers would log the movements properly, and since our game was more of a subculture and less mass-market than it is now, you had a better chance that most cachers had a "clue" and could learn the basics of correct TB logging without their brains exploding. It's true that one can still play this part of the game that way, but it's also clear that a signficant part of it is no longer played this way.

 

(3) When I started playing over 5 years ago, TB stats were generally legit. You either moved TBs, or logged notes when you "saw" TBs, and that's how your stats were gathered. Soon, competition for these stats overtook the original purpose of TB movement, and "Discovered it" was born. Then, competition for "Icons" became a focus, and the GeoCoin business exploded. Now, instead of GeoEvents being about the oringal intent of cachers socializing and sharing stories and caching experiences and tips, they're primarily about coin sales and the exchanging of lists of Tracking Numbers so that attendees can artificially inflate their stats and icons.

 

You're right. I don't "get" the game anymore. I work to find caches that take me to interesting locations, and I move and correctly log TBs. I just don't get it.

 

You do get it! Totally. Remember the good old days? It was kind of nostalgic reading your post.

Link to comment

 

Every time you park your car outside, you have no "control over it." Does that mean you are no longer the owner?

Oh please! If you're going to try to discuss something then at least find a reasonable analogy. Yours isn't even close. Try again.

Once again, please explain to all of us just how much control you actually have over a TB once it's released. If someone doesn't want to take it to where you want it to go what's your recourse? You can pout and whine all you want that you didn't like the direction your TB went but all you are doing is whining anc pouting. Whining and pouting doesn't change anything, it just annoys people.

drat19 is 100% right on target. Good post drat.

 

Actually, the analogy is right on.

 

The issue I see with your argument is that you are talking about what can be done (recourse, etc.) versus what should be done (following rules and generally accepted practices).

 

Can you see the difference? The notion of ownership has been discussed MANY times both here and in the Geocoin Forums and it always seems to come back to the difference of CAN versus SHOULD.

 

I'm in the camp that thinks the only way this game and community works is if we all (ok, most) accept the same standards for what should/shouldn't be done.

Edited by kealia
Link to comment

What I took issue with was your attitude that "TBs have no owner." The logical consequence of such an attitude is that you can steal or destroy any TB that you wish, since "there is no owner." Such an attitude is completely contrary to the "rules" and spirit of geocaching.

Where did this come from? No one in this entire thread has said nor implied nor even hinted any such thing.

Thank you for proving my prior comment.

 

The issue I see with your argument is that you are talking about what can be done (recourse, etc.) versus what should be done (following rules and generally accepted practices).

Can you see the difference? The notion of ownership has been discussed MANY times both here and in the Geocoin Forums and it always seems to come back to the difference of CAN versus SHOULD.

I well know the difference but that has never been any part of this discussion. My point all along has been what "can be done" is out of the person's control. What "should" be done was never the discussion. A prior post said they did have control when someone didn't do what should be done. I simply asked what kind of control that person thought they had over the holder when the holder didn't do what "should" be done. In actuality the truth is nothin. When someone doesn't do what "should be done" then what "can be done" is not an option.

Never anywhere in this thread has anyone said anything differently, contrary to whatever UncleJimbo may have read into some comment somewhere. Some people are getting way too emotional and either intentionally misrepresenting what was said or are reading things into posts that simply are not there and not true, such as "attitude is that you can steal or destroy any TB that you wish". -_-

Link to comment

What I took issue with was your attitude that "TBs have no owner." The logical consequence of such an attitude is that you can steal or destroy any TB that you wish, since "there is no owner." Such an attitude is completely contrary to the "rules" and spirit of geocaching.

Where did this come from? No one in this entire thread has said nor implied nor even hinted any such thing.

 

You said it yourself in post #50 in this thread here.

 

Once a TB is turned out into the wild there is no owner. There is a person who released it but there is no ownership.

Link to comment

What I took issue with was your attitude that "TBs have no owner." The logical consequence of such an attitude is that you can steal or destroy any TB that you wish, since "there is no owner." Such an attitude is completely contrary to the "rules" and spirit of geocaching.

Where did this come from? No one in this entire thread has said nor implied nor even hinted any such thing.

 

You said it yourself in post #50 in this thread here.

 

Once a TB is turned out into the wild there is no owner. There is a person who released it but there is no ownership.

And you think that comment says "steal or destroy any TB that you wish"? Wow! And by your profile you claim to be a scientist? Wow again! And in your profession you deal with putting together facts!?!?

You really are having a hard time comprehending what was written. You have just confirmed my statement of " Some people are getting way too emotional and either intentionally misrepresenting what was said or are reading things into posts that simply are not there and not true, such as "attitude is that you can steal or destroy any TB that you wish". "

 

I'm thru with this thread. Somewhere along the line you've gotten way out there by misinterpreting, either intentionally or thru inability, common written word. No where has anyone said anything like what you seem to think. I'd soon stick with rational conversation.

Edited by Wadcutter
Link to comment

What I took issue with was your attitude that "TBs have no owner." The logical consequence of such an attitude is that you can steal or destroy any TB that you wish, since "there is no owner." Such an attitude is completely contrary to the "rules" and spirit of geocaching.

Where did this come from? No one in this entire thread has said nor implied nor even hinted any such thing.

 

You said it yourself in post #50 in this thread here.

 

Once a TB is turned out into the wild there is no owner. There is a person who released it but there is no ownership.

And you think that comment says "steal or destroy any TB that you wish"? Wow! And by your profile you claim to be a scientist? Wow again! And in your profession you deal with putting together facts!?!?

You really are having a hard time comprehending what was written. You have just confirmed my statement of " Some people are getting way too emotional and either intentionally misrepresenting what was said or are reading things into posts that simply are not there and not true, such as "attitude is that you can steal or destroy any TB that you wish". "

 

I'm thru with this thread. Somewhere along the line you've gotten way out there by misinterpreting, either intentionally or thru inability, common written word. No where has anyone said anything like what you seem to think. I'd soon stick with rational conversation.

 

You are the only one I see getting emotional (and somewhat irrational). If you cannot follow simple logic, then there is no point trying to discuss this with you.

 

I thought I was "thru with this thread" a while ago, but then you reappeared and continued with your posting.

Link to comment

I've picked up TBs without a goal sheet, checked online once home and thought...I wish I didn't take it! In that case, I drop it somewhere nearby or at my next stop.

 

I sent a TB out with a sheet. It specifically said that it was to roam around our area visiting historical sites, etc. since we have so much here. The second person to move it took it to...FRANCE!!!!!! -_- Do they NOT read? :anicute: Then it went to the islands somewhere after it had been in ENGLAND. I had changed the goal to stop somewhere in England. Never managed to get there. I'm happy someone there said they could take it to an island many Americans visit and it might head back. He was kind enough to repair my TB when it was damaged, and he was kind enough to add a...headed to the USA...paper with it. From the islands it at least got back on the right continent in Canada. Then it was getting closer to home...WV. Yahoo! Went to MD, then the next person took it to NC. Ugh. Couldn't make one stop in VA to be in the correct state? I find it frustrating. I'm still waiting. This person has had this bug a couple months now because I don't want it dropped off in NC. Sheesh. I think my days of sending out TBs are over. I have gotten one back so far. Still waiting for this.

 

I have gone out of my way to get two bugs to people that were headed to their destinations. Once meeting up with someone to take it to FL. Another time left one in a cache where someone would pick it up and take out west with them.

Edited by VirginiaGator
Link to comment

You are very confused. You seem to equate ownership with "control". They are two totally different things.

I'm confused? Obviously you're confused because you aren't following the OP's thread. Go back and reread. I'll type slow so you can follow along. "Ownership" in this entire thread has been about the person who places the TB and has made the request that the TB goes to a certain destination. "Control" that is being discussed is when the subsequent TB finders aren't placing the TB where the one who started the TB has asked the TB to go.

Simple enough?

 

I actually agree that TB owners have little "control" over where their TBs go. I also would not mind if one of my TBs moved "against its goal." So, in this regard, I sympathize with the OP.

 

What I took issue with was your attitude that "TBs have no owner." The logical consequence of such an attitude is that you can steal or destroy any TB that you wish, since "there is no owner." Such an attitude is completely contrary to the "rules" and spirit of geocaching.

 

Understand now?

TBs do have owners. These owners have limited control over the travels of their TB.

I have to agree that TBs do have owners. Why else would we have the other part of the tag? -_-

 

Something else I didn't care for was being out caching with people who were headed to Geowoodstock 5. Pick up every TB along the way and take them there? PLEASE don't take any of my TBs there! :anicute: Especially if it's close to where it should be!

Link to comment

At the risk of having my newbie head bitten off, I just wanted to chime in here with a couple of thoughts:

 

1) Maybe it's because I'm in a relatively rural area of Japan, but I don't see Geocaching done as only a means to increase stats here. In fact, my husband and I enjoy doing it specifically because it takes us to places we haven't seen -- and places we probably never would have seen had we not had this incentive to go look. On the other hand, my interaction with other geocachers is pretty much limited to this Forum. I have seen people boast about having found x caches in y time, but I don't pay it much mind. I personally would rather have a reputation as a person who leaves interesting caches in interesting places than as a person who had found over, say, 1000 caches in her first three months of caching. Maybe that's just me.

 

2) TBs have owners. The TB page on geocaching.com says "Owner", not "Releaser". I do agree that one's control over a TB is extremely limited once it's been released. On the other hand, I personally will not pick up a TB unless I can help it with its goal (assuming I know what its goal is). I have passed up three TBs so far because of this (and I was just happy enough to see them. They're neat). I do agree that if the TB has no goal, anything goes; I also agree that if the owner has not printed out a goal sheet to accompany the bug, it's much harder for him or her to expect that a person picking up the bug will follow the goal. But I think that it's important, as a player, that if the TB's goal is stated and I know about it, that I do my best to honor that goal. Otherwise, what's the point of giving it a goal in the first place? I don't understand why it's unreasonable to expect people who find (and take) your bugs to advance them towards their goal and log them properly while doing so.

 

Edited to add: on the other hand, I just found this great quote in a post by Snoogans in his TB Longevity Clinic thread which I am just now reading:

 

Great wisdom from a master TB finder:

 

"It's a web of life, in my opinion, and absolutely any movement is the next step in reaching it's goal. That weird side trip to Florida, may be the next step to Canada. And a side trip may have saved it from going MIA by pilferage in Pennsylvania."

 

bthomas on the subject of TB movement 10/27/2003

Edited by Jackalgirl
Link to comment

Folks, here's a reminder from our forum guidelines:

 

Some things to keep in mind when posting:

 

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

 

Memorize them, there will be a test.

 

And Jackalgirl, I think, for a newbie, you've got the idea. -_-

Link to comment

Jackalgirl does get it, seriously, but I don't completely agree with the quote.

 

Yes, any movement assists the bug towards it's goal, but I don't believe that any drop location does. When you know the goal, taking it and leaving are both valid options when it comes to helping bug. A side trip may help the bug but complete off course is not much of an excuse when you know you aren't following the mission.

Link to comment

As you can see, on March 9 I picked up this TB in Mississippi, and on March 24 I dropped it off in Wisconsin...lots of nice mileage. I properly logged it. ....

Well, apparently several moves (and proper logs by other TB carriers) later, the TB has gone missing. Also apparently, it's ALL MY FAULT...if it hadn't gone to Wisconsin, it surely would not have gone missing. HUH??

 

Dave,

 

I realize it's been awhile since you moved to the northern cultural wasteland. A few things have changed here since you moved, and one of the most significant changes has been the increase in the antibiotic resistant strain of spuriousotic travelbugodoious, which causes travel bugs to breakdown to their component elements.

 

The public health authorities here in the Magnolia State have been spraying for this virus, but to little avail.

 

This infectious condition has no effect here in the South, but infected travel bugs, when moved to an environment of lower oxygen levels, such as Wisconsin, may find themselves with a raging case of spuriousotic travelbugodoious.

 

Unfortunately, by the time the condition has fully manifested itself, there is nothing that can be done. The poor TB is dead, and services should be planned right away. For really advanced cases, such as what has evidently occurred here, only a memorial service should be planned, since the infected TB literally 'evaporates' and seems to disappear.

 

So, as you can see, the disappearance of the TB most likely has nothing to do with you, but is probably related to a full blown case of spuriousotic travelbugodoious. This is not a thing you could foresee.

 

FWIW, there is a home test kit for this that should be on the market soon. For the TB in question here, we'll all just have to live with the fact that it'as just too late to do anything about it.

Link to comment

Jackalgirl does get it, seriously, but I don't completely agree with the quote.

 

Yes, any movement assists the bug towards it's goal, but I don't believe that any drop location does. When you know the goal, taking it and leaving are both valid options when it comes to helping bug. A side trip may help the bug but complete off course is not much of an excuse when you know you aren't following the mission.

 

I so totally agree...I had a TB that was ALMOST at the main completion of it's goal, at least, the Chicago part of it, when it was "taken to TX for Thanksgiving". ;) I couldn't believe it...all it had to do was complete it's goal in Chicago and make its way back to me in MN. But now it's in TEXAS, so very far from it's goal, and in a puzzle cache (limiting the chances of getting back on the trail to Chicago again to those that solve the puzzle) no less ;) .

 

Thus illustrating the very lack of control over a TB...there's really not much to be done but hope that the upcoming travels have pictures posted so I can enjoy its journey. ;)

 

*sigh*

BUT WHY DID THEY HAVE TO MOVE IT TO TEXAS????? ;)

Link to comment
Someone who purposely moves a bug against it's goal, just doesn't "get" the game.

OK, I started this thread, I moved a TB or two "against goal" (out of literally hundreds of TBs moved thousands of miles (as a professional traveling consultant)), let me tell you how much I don't "get" the game:

 

(1) When I started playing over 5 years ago, this game was about finding not-micro-sized containers in the woods, where the primary focus was getting out to locations you wouldn't have otherwise discovered. Cache hides may or may not have been challenging, but the goal was to ultimately ACTUALLY FIND the container, and more often than not without having to fear detection by non-cachers. And one could count on a majority of containers being large enough to actually hold a travel bug (let alone any other trinkets). It's true that one can still play the game that way, but it is also clear that the majority of this game is no longer played this way.

 

(2) When I started playing over 5 years ago, the Travel Bug part of this game was straightforward. You bought TB tags from Groundspeak, and you knew that if you released a TB out to the Geocaching community at large, you did so at your own risk, with no further controi. All you could reasonably hope for was that cachers would log the movements properly, and since our game was more of a subculture and less mass-market than it is now, you had a better chance that most cachers had a "clue" and could learn the basics of correct TB logging without their brains exploding. It's true that one can still play this part of the game that way, but it's also clear that a signficant part of it is no longer played this way.

 

(3) When I started playing over 5 years ago, TB stats were generally legit. You either moved TBs, or logged notes when you "saw" TBs, and that's how your stats were gathered. Soon, competition for these stats overtook the original purpose of TB movement, and "Discovered it" was born. Then, competition for "Icons" became a focus, and the GeoCoin business exploded. Now, instead of GeoEvents being about the oringal intent of cachers socializing and sharing stories and caching experiences and tips, they're primarily about coin sales and the exchanging of lists of Tracking Numbers so that attendees can artificially inflate their stats and icons.

 

You're right. I don't "get" the game anymore. I work to find caches that take me to interesting locations, and I move and correctly log TBs. I just don't get it.

 

You do get it! Totally. Remember the good old days? It was kind of nostalgic reading your post.

 

Yes for a moment I had a great flashback.

 

Those were the GOOD OLE DAY's

 

I am not going to go any farther than saying,I think we can all do better.

Link to comment

Just for the record, if you find any of our almost 600 TB's out in the world, I don't care where they go, even if a goal is stated.........

 

as long as they move.

 

I don't get to travel around the world, but my TB's have gone to amazing places and have met amazing people that have become life long cyber friends.

 

So if you find one from q22q17, I don't care if you move it over 1000 miles in the wrong direction, post a photo of it, and I'll laugh, and thank you for helping it to move!

 

Is it time for turkey yet?

Link to comment

I think dropping a TB in a cache that is very rarely visited is a much bigger sin than taking a TB with no attached instructions to the "wrong" place.

There is nothing wrong with dropping travel bugs in caches that are in remote locations and/or are more challenging to visit. These caches are usually far better in quality than most urban and easily accessible caches. Travel bugs placed in more challenging and less frequently visited caches are less likely to get lost. Travel bugs frequently become lost when dropped in easy caches, because such caches are likely to be muggled or the caches are visited by inexperienced or unreliable caches who take the travel bugs but don't log them.

 

Avid geocachers should encourage the placement of more physically challenging caches and caches located in regions where there are fewer caches. This would include the placement of travel bugs in such caches whenever they are visited.

Link to comment

The only thing bad about caching miles away from your home is picking up TB's that don't have there goal stated on them, so when you get home and log it you find out you went in the wrong direction. I'm guilty of it, but what do you do. Hey, it's happened to my TB's too. Like most of you say, at least they are moving and are not a hostage in a TB hotel. :anibad:

Link to comment

As a cacher who has released about 20 or so coins (coins, about 8 bucks a pop, not travel bugs) into the wild, I thought about these issues before. I decided that once I drop the coin, I may as well be prepared to count it as lost. Then when it does move and go onto a mission, it's like a bonus.

 

I mean, how many of us have started a trip somewhere only to end up somewhere else and in the end, we're glad we took the different way? TB and coins can be the same way.

 

I count on the consideration of other cachers to honor the coin's mission, so what I do is keep the coin in it's sleeve and include a laminated card containing my email and the coin's mission, all packed in a smallish ziplock bag. Joranda has probably seen my coins before, as we cache in the same lands. I have only one coin go missing, and it was because the cache it was in was destroyed.

Link to comment
For instance in our case, our bug was clearly marked where it's goal was to end up. Which happens to be Key West for a family wedding which we will be attending the week of Halloween.

 

Hopefully, the wedding was not called off because of the devastating news of the lost TB!!

 

But seriously, a location goal with the added caveat of a strict time window? The space shuttle has more room for error! Let's all try to limit our expectations from scraps of metal chained to Dollar Store items.

 

Just remember, TB's are not going to cure cancer.......however, they seem to be working on diabetes. :)

Link to comment

Here're the pages for my two TB's.

This one missing after the first move:

http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=51500

 

This one apparently stolen after a very few moves, one to a small town on the east coast (note it's destination)

http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=1075298

 

I'm not going to put a lot of hope in future TB's, that's for sure. LOL

 

But you place a TB, you take your chances.

Personally I only pick them up once in a while.

Link to comment

After five years of caching + moving TB's + reading these posts, I still don't understand how I am supposed to know where the next cacher is headed. Say that two cachers arrive at a cache in Kansas. One is visiting from New York, the other is visiting from California. They see a TB that wants to go to Europe. Should the eastern cacher take it since he is going in the physical direction of the goal? How do they know that the next cacher to spot the TB on the west coast is not planning on going to Europe soon?

 

In my limited experience, most (not all) TB owners rather see their bugs moving than have them languish in a remote cache for several months.

Link to comment

There is nothing wrong with dropping travel bugs in caches that are in remote locations and/or are more challenging to visit. These caches are usually far better in quality than most urban and easily accessible caches. Travel bugs placed in more challenging and less frequently visited caches are less likely to get lost. Travel bugs frequently become lost when dropped in easy caches, because such caches are likely to be muggled or the caches are visited by inexperienced or unreliable caches who take the travel bugs but don't log them.

 

Avid geocachers should encourage the placement of more physically challenging caches and caches located in regions where there are fewer caches. This would include the placement of travel bugs in such caches whenever they are visited.

I disagree. I don't want my TB sitting in a remote cache that only gets hit every 6 months. What's the point? Knowing it's sitting in a remote cache isn't much better than being lost IMO. I agree with the comment below -

 

In my limited experience, most (not all) TB owners rather see their bugs moving than have them languish in a remote cache for several months.

 

In the end, moving towards it's goal is best.

Then there is moving in general.

Then there is sitting in a remote cache/TB prison.

There there is lost.

Link to comment

But you place a TB, you take your chances.

 

and

 

After five years of caching + moving TB's + reading these posts, I still don't understand how I am supposed to know where the next cacher is headed. Say that two cachers arrive at a cache in Kansas. One is visiting from New York, the other is visiting from California. They see a TB that wants to go to Europe. Should the eastern cacher take it since he is going in the physical direction of the goal? How do they know that the next cacher to spot the TB on the west coast is not planning on going to Europe soon?

 

 

Better watch what you say when you post something like that or someone on here will accuse you of advocating that it's OK to steal TBs. ;)

Edited by Wadcutter
Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...