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Should I / Would you .... try for this one?


frex3wv

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Heading out of town on a 2 day "day trip" to hike geocache, benchmark hunt etc.

 

Found this mark - and was wondering...should I / would you try for this one?

 

1/1/1935 by CGS (MONUMENTED)

DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1935 7.1 MI NW FROM GRAFTON. IN MARION COUNTY, 7.1 MILES NORTHWEST ALONG THE BALTIMORE AND OHIO RAILROAD FROM THE STATION AT GRAFTON, TAYLOR COUNTY, 45 FEET NORTH OF POLE 287+05, IN THE TOP OF THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE NORTH CONCRETE WALL OF A CULVERT, 9 FEET NORTH OF THE CENTERLINE OF THE NORTH TRACK, AND 1 FOOT LOWER THAN THE TRACK. A STANDARD DISK, STAMPED Q 33 1935.

 

1/1/1983 by NGS (MARK NOT FOUND)

RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1983 NOT RECOVERED, THE MARK IS INACCESSIBLE TO NEW LEVEL LINE AND WAS NOT SEARCHED FOR IN 1983.

 

What does "inaccessible to new level line" mean and was "mark not found" really a good report when it wasn't looked for?

 

and what about this one?

 

1/1/1935 by CGS (MONUMENTED)

DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1935 5.6 MI NW FROM GRAFTON. 5.6 MILES NORTHWEST ALONG THE BALTIMORE AND OHIO RAILROAD FROM THE STATION AT GRAFTON, TAYLOR COUNTY, 74 FEET WEST OF POLE 285+25, 163 FEET EAST OF A ONE-STORY FARMHOUSE, 24 FEET SOUTH OF THE CENTERLINE OF THE SOUTH TRACK, 2-1/2 FEET HIGHER THAN THE TRACK, AND IN THE TOP OF A LARGE BOULDER. A STANDARD DISK, STAMPED R 33 1935.

 

1/1/1983 by NGS (MARK NOT FOUND)

RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1983 NOT RECOVERED, DESCRIPTION NOW INADEQUATE, NO SIGNS OF THE MARK COULD BE FOUND.

 

Added question: what am I looking for when it mentions the mark as a steel rod? is it obvious or what? anyone have any pics? should I go for "steel rod" marks?

 

Thanks in advance y'all.

Edited by frex3wv
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frex3wv,

 

Just a few stray comments. One, is this still an active RR? If so, please exercise caution both for obvious safety reasons and to avoid unpleasant encounters with RR police.

 

It's always a good idea when asking about a particular mark to include the PID.

 

On the first one, could "new level line" suggest that they leveled along a different route that bypassed this particular mark? I'm just guessing, but if NGS says they didn't search for it, I'd say it would be worth going after.

 

On the second, it indeed may be gone, but in my experience disks set in boulders rarely disappear unless there is major reconstruction in an area, and I would imagine this is a rural area where there has been little activity that might disturb the mark. The pole may no longer be there, but the farmhouse probably is (or evidence of where was). I would probably go for it.

 

I'm guessing these are both scaled marks, and there's probably a good chance they are marked on a topo map, even if only with an X. That should help you decide whether to look for them and help in your search if you decide to go ahead with it.

 

Hope this helps some.

 

-ArtMan-

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Thanks for the reply artman.

 

Here are the PIDS -

 

for the first mark - JX0170

 

for the second mark - JX0169.

 

They are both scaled - which doesn't make it the easiest search, of course, but certainly they would be fun ones!

 

As for the RR - not sure - but will use caution. As for the RR Police - no real worries there - because unlike other places - there are very few - if any ( I have yet to see a one!). Thats rural america for ya I guess.

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If I were in your position, I'd do nothing more than a cursory glance for them. Because of their age, and the maintenance done on railbeds (not to mention slight grade changes, any accidents, dragging equipment, washouts, upgrades, etc) more than likely they are destroyed, or covered by ten feet of ballast.

 

I work for a railroad (not that one) and yeah, be very careful. Do NOT walk along the right-of-way. Aside from getting run over, you CAN get hurt, and you more than likely will get the attention of the first train rolling through, which will then contact anyone they feel necessary (depending on how threatening you look) about you trespassing. (Oh, and all railbeds ARE private property..). Trains CAN be really quiet, depending on rail conditions and whether the engine's under load or not, and they CAN sneak up on you... :sad:

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Added question: what am I looking for when it mentions the mark as a steel rod? is it obvious or what? anyone have any pics? should I go for "steel rod" marks?

 

Here in lower Michigan, there were apparently about a zillion of these placed starting in the 1980's: steel rod about 1/2" diameter, driven 10+ feet deep ("to resistance" is often noted on the NGS datasheets), then surrounded at the surface with a sheath 5" or so in diameter. Access to the rod is via a hinged cover (labeled "ACCESS COVER" to avoid any confusion!) The designation & date are stamped on the cover mount. See AH7939: 601765eb-819e-4b3b-ae47-68b3f5ea33ef.jpg

 

Although they are apparently real stable surveying-wise, I find them rather unappealing as targets - rather like rivets - unless they're needed for poker fun runs, in which case they're really cool. They may also be a ploy by creationists to prove that with evolution things don't necessarily get better.

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JX0170 (Q 33) is marked on the Fairmont East topo map. Using the geoPDF version downloaded from store.usgs.gov I came up with coordinates 39.38723, -80.07216 (or 39-23-14.028, -80-04-19.776), which may be slightly more accurate than the published scaled coordinates.

 

JX0169 (R 33) doesn't appear to be marked, but there are several buildings marked on the map near the scaled coordinates that could represent the farmhouse mentioned in the 1935 description.

 

With all respect to foxtrot_xray, who probably knows 16 times more about railroads than I do, I doubt that a boulder that is 20 feet from the track and 4.5 feet above track level has been covered by ballast. Covered with vegetation, certainly.

 

-ArtMan-

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In this area and probably yours, the USGS in mid 1900's was fond of driving a plain or copper plated steel rod with no disk nor sleeve. These are almost all buried and very difficult to find unless you have a metal detector or a good item to measure from. Since the coordinates are 2nd or 3rd order adjusted, you can get pretty close with your handheld GPS, and may get lucky with a treasure hunter type metal detector, but a magnetic locator type of detector is almost needed if they are buried deeply because they present so little surface area.

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ahhhh - so a metal rod isn't above ground / grade, is that right?

 

if that is the case - until I get a detector - and that isn't on the list - I need a surveyor tape etc etc etc much more - then I may not go after more than 1. If I find one in a sheath - that may be a cool find!

 

And thanks for the reminder Fox: I WILL be VERY careful. As for the trespassing - I hear ya - and don't disagree - but around here - the engineers will be more apt to simply smile and give a friendly wave. If they were to radio in - based on our ruralness (is that a word?) I would be long gone if/when they arrived. Now up in NY - they would be there in a minute or 2 - I know - cause as a teen i would hang near tracks and bridges with friends - and after a train would go by - a few minutes would pass an BAM - RR Police!

Edited by frex3wv
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Sometimes, they will put disks on the steel rod:

386f63c1-7e77-4565-90aa-6b68523bc6ac.jpg

Most of the newer steel rods, I have not had much problem finding (cross my fins).

Railroads. Hmmm... It can depend on the maintenance and renovations. A disk in a boulder 24 feet south might well still be there. In fact, I found one last weekend. Railroad is freight only and has not done a log of updating. (And doesn't seem to operate on Sundays...)

Our NJ Transit lines, on the other fin, were completely redone about ten years ago. Re-electrified, completely new tracks sitting on four feet of ballast. Nope. I'm not about to look for the copper bolt between the tracks in Mount Tabor. Anything within fifteen feet of those tracks is buried. And! These trains are quiet! No more clickety clack. Sometimes all you hear is the singing in the wires before the commuter train come rushing by. (I do miss the catenaries! Now, they have a level wire hanging off the catenaries. Better for the pantographs, I guess...) Oh, well.

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With all respect to foxtrot_xray, who probably knows 16 times more about railroads than I do, I doubt that a boulder that is 20 feet from the track and 4.5 feet above track level has been covered by ballast. Covered with vegetation, certainly.

Very true! ...Unless they added a main line. :sad:

 

Railroads are like the one thing I get on my soap-box about. (Only because, as a train crewmember, I've had the distinct displeasure of hitting both a pedestrian and a semi while on the crew. It ain't pretty..)

 

It's fair to say that there are two 'types' - Class I (One) and Class III (Three). If the line you're going to hunt these marks on doesn't run on weekends, and doesn't connect with two major hubs, chances are it's a Class III. I can't say you're allowed to hunt there, but you are probably safer. Less speeds, less frequency. If the trains run non-stop into the night, and weekends, and go relatively fast, chances are it's a Class I. Be more wary around Class I's in terms of RR Police and getting flattened. Class III 's are (usually) a lot more friendly. (You can also find out easily by going to a crossing, and finding out who owns the line. A name should be printed on a signal or the signal box. Look it up online, and that'll give you a clue.)

 

Again, having said that, I'm not giving you permission to do anything. :D

 

And, having said *THAT*, I have had several amazing discoveries on my line. One was EE0061. The original line owners from 1931 state that's when the square was put in (actually, that's when "permission" was given). When this one came up for me to find, I was CERTAIN I wasn't going to find it. But as I got there, it was plain as day. Also, EE0068 was another great discovery.

 

I've had much more luck on Class IIIs than Class Is, mostly because of the maintenance and frequency of trains. :lol:

 

Good luck! ;)

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Should you go and look for those marks? You can't find something if you don't physically go and look where it should be.

 

We have found enough marks (about 35) that have been "Not found" to make it worth the effort to at least visit the area and look for ourselves.

 

As to looking for those along RRs, well that is up to the individual and how comfortable they are when around trains. If there is a safe access to the area, we would probably check the area to see if it looks like there would be a high chance of recovery. We would then consider the risks against the gains and make a final decision. Only an actual visit to the site can give the needed information to make an informed decision on the recovery of a specific benchmark.

 

We would at least go the area and see if there are any "No Trespassing" signs posted. From that point on it is up the individual to decide on the risk factors.

 

It's amazing the number of benchmarks that are still there against all the odds, so don't just write them off without at least a cursory visit to the site.

 

Disclaimer : We have in the past recovered benchmarks along active railways and most likely will do so again in the future. This does not give you our permission to do the same thing. (Even if you had our permission, you would be entirely on your own!)

 

Good Hunting,

 

John

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I have hunted and found many marks along rail lines.

Here in AZ, it's the 'wide open spaces', so you can usually see the train coming..IF you are paying attention.

Obviously, 'paying attention' is VERY important!

There have been many instances when I was most certainly see on the right-of-way by the crews, but I have yet to have a negative experience while hunting in such a situation.

Come to think of it, (with the exception of not finding the mark), I can't recall ANY truly negative experience I've had while Benchmarking...just lucky I guess...

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As for the RR Police - no real worries there - because unlike other places - there are very few - if any ( I have yet to see a one!).

 

If you'd been with me two weeks ago, you could have had a very close look at the rail police. I was playing host to a retired CTX employee and his brother, from out of state. They were photographing railroad structures, and I was the driver/navigator (since we were on my home turf.)

 

We were confronted by an armed officer at the AMTRACK station in Raleigh. Fortunately, having a retired railroad employee in the party was sufficient explanation for the lawman. :sad:

 

It sure got my attention, however. We never saw him until he was right in our face.....

 

-Paul-

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