Hiding Caches without a GPS

[kingedwin]

Is it possible to, and if so how do I hide a cache without a GPS device?

Can you use Google Maps or a cellphone or something?

Are you allowed to hide a cache without putting the exact co-ordinates somewhere on the site?

Please answer.

[+Miragee]

Welcome to the Forums!

 

Although it is possible to find caches without a GPSr, it really isn't possible to hide one, and provide accurate coordinates, without taking coordinates at the exact location. I suppose you could hide a Letterbox/Hybrid and give "directions" in the description to the container, but you still have to provide coordinates as a starting point.

[+Markwell]

Find a friend with one?

[+TrailGators]

Is it possible to, and if so how do I hide a cache without a GPS device?

Can you use Google Maps or a cellphone or something?

Are you allowed to hide a cache without putting the exact co-ordinates somewhere on the site?

Please answer.

Google Maps is not accurate enough to hide one. It is a real pain to find a cache when the coords are off so you should always use a GPS with fresh batteries and be sure to let the GPS settle for several minutes to get an accurate reading.

[+cache_test_dummies]

Is it possible to, and if so how do I hide a cache without a GPS device?

It is possible, but not allowed.

 

From the Listing Guidelines:

 

You as the owner of the cache must visit the site and obtain the coordinates with a GPS. GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

[+Team Cotati]

Is it possible to, and if so how do I hide a cache without a GPS device?

Can you use Google Maps or a cellphone or something?

Are you allowed to hide a cache without putting the exact co-ordinates somewhere on the site?

Please answer.

 

You didn't say exactly, do you own a GPSr device?

[+Team Cotati]

Is it possible to, and if so how do I hide a cache without a GPS device?

It is possible, but not allowed.

 

From the Listing Guidelines:

 

You as the owner of the cache must visit the site and obtain the coordinates with a GPS. GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

 

I'd like to know, if you provide accurate coordinates, what's the problem and further, how would such a deviation from the guidelines be detected?

[+cache_test_dummies]

Is it possible to, and if so how do I hide a cache without a GPS device?

It is possible, but not allowed.

 

From the Listing Guidelines:

 

You as the owner of the cache must visit the site and obtain the coordinates with a GPS. GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

 

I'd like to know, if you provide accurate coordinates, what's the problem and further, how would such a deviation from the guidelines be detected?

Since you quoted my post, I'll respond by saying that I think your questions are off topic. Perhaps you might get the answers you are looking for if you started a new thread.

[+edscott]

Welcome to the Forums!

 

Although it is possible to find caches without a GPSr, it really isn't possible to hide one, and provide accurate coordinates, without taking coordinates at the exact location. .............

 

This is not true. It is against the rules of geocaching.com, but far from impossible. Maps and aerial photos are produced from many more bits of data than the few readings taken by most hiders and thus are usually much more, and never less, accurate than a GPS to those that can read them.

[kingedwin]

Thanks guys.

I'll have to find a way to get my cache posted.

Maybe I can find someone else with a GPS.

I wasn't expecting such a fast reply, this is quite useful.

Thanks again.

[+edscott]

I'd like to know, if you provide accurate coordinates, what's the problem and further, how would such a deviation from the guidelines be detected?

 

Maybe if you told the reviewer? Otherwise how is 40 45.125 x -75 42.789 different from 40 45.125 x -75 42.789?

[+Team Cotati]

I'd like to know, if you provide accurate coordinates, what's the problem and further, how would such a deviation from the guidelines be detected?

 

Maybe if you told the reviewer? Otherwise how is 40 45.125 x -75 42.789 different from 40 45.125 x -75 42.789?

 

Yes, I tink that it is.

[+UncleJimbo]

Thanks guys.

I'll have to find a way to get my cache posted.

Maybe I can find someone else with a GPS.

I wasn't expecting such a fast reply, this is quite useful.

Thanks again.

 

Why would you want to hide a cache without a GPSr?

If you don't have a GPSr, and have not found any caches (presumably), why would you want to hide one?

[kingedwin]

Thanks guys.

I'll have to find a way to get my cache posted.

Maybe I can find someone else with a GPS.

I wasn't expecting such a fast reply, this is quite useful.

Thanks again.

 

Why would you want to hide a cache without a GPSr?

If you don't have a GPSr, and have not found any caches (presumably), why would you want to hide one?

 

I think you'll find it is actually possible to find a cache without a GPS.

Anyway, thanks to a friend of mine I now have my first cache. Thanks everybody who gave me advice.

[+Puppyman]

I found my first 3 caches without a gps by using topo maps, clues provided by cache page and finders comments.

Topo maps will get you into the ball park area, but the red cross is off by 50-70 feet. A fact that I didn't know at the time.

[gallet]

Hiding a cache without checking accurate coordinates with a gps is fraudulent.

[+UncleJimbo]

Thanks guys.

I'll have to find a way to get my cache posted.

Maybe I can find someone else with a GPS.

I wasn't expecting such a fast reply, this is quite useful.

Thanks again.

 

Why would you want to hide a cache without a GPSr?

If you don't have a GPSr, and have not found any caches (presumably), why would you want to hide one?

 

I think you'll find it is actually possible to find a cache without a GPS.

Anyway, thanks to a friend of mine I now have my first cache. Thanks everybody who gave me advice.

 

There are some caches that can be found without a GPSr (I have found one myself without using my GPSr), but this game/activity/sport is meant to be done with a GPSr. That is the way it was developed.

 

If you want to do something like this without a GPSr, then perhaps you should consider something like letterboxing.

[+edscott]

I found my first 3 caches without a gps by using topo maps, clues provided by cache page and finders comments.

Topo maps will get you into the ball park area, but the red cross is off by 50-70 feet. A fact that I didn't know at the time.

 

I assume the "red Cross" means you are using Topozone. I don't find them to be off at all, but I do use the aerial photos once I get near Ground Zero for pinpointing the exact tree it is beside.

[+edscott]

There are some caches that can be found without a GPSr (I have found one myself without using my GPSr), but this game/activity/sport is meant to be done with a GPSr. That is the way it was developed.

 

If you want to do something like this without a GPSr, then perhaps you should consider something like letterboxing.

 

Are you inviting me to quit geocaching?

Edited October 3, 2007 by edscott

[+edscott]

Hiding a cache without checking accurate coordinates with a gps is fraudulent.

 

Your post implies that coordinates obtained by any method except a GPS are inaccurate. This isn't true. Not using a GPS to obtain the coordinates is against the rules, but it is always just as accurate and often more so. It's just a different skill. If you don't have it, then go ahead and use the GPS. The map readers will not complain.

[+edscott]

Thanks guys.

I'll have to find a way to get my cache posted.

Maybe I can find someone else with a GPS.

I wasn't expecting such a fast reply, this is quite useful.

Thanks again.

 

Why would you want to hide a cache without a GPSr?

If you don't have a GPSr, and have not found any caches (presumably), why would you want to hide one?

 

Do any research ??? He's 11... Perhaps a GPS is a bit out of his price range right now. But he only has to find 1 more cache to catch up with you. Wait until he gets one!!

[+UncleJimbo]

There are some caches that can be found without a GPSr (I have found one myself without using my GPSr), but this game/activity/sport is meant to be done with a GPSr. That is the way it was developed.

 

If you want to do something like this without a GPSr, then perhaps you should consider something like letterboxing.

 

Are you inviting me to quit geocaching?

 

I was not replying to you, as is clear from the quote in my post, and from the nesting in "outline" forum view.

[gallet]

 

Your post implies that coordinates obtained by any method except a GPS are inaccurate.

 

Yes that's generally true. How are you going to set coordinates with 5 metre accuracy with a map? Especially in the places where caches are usually hidden. When I have checked my position using topographic maps I find that it is only accurate to about 20-50 metres using UTM codordinates. Trying to read the lat longs with any precision off topo maps is a losing proposition.

 

The thing is that even if you were able to set accurate (to within 5 metres) coordinates with a map then you are abrogating your responsibility by not checking the accuracy against a gps.

 

EDIT: Unless of course you are using Steven Wright's maps.

Wright: I've got a map of the USA...pause...life size.

Edited October 3, 2007 by gallet

[+edscott]

There are some caches that can be found without a GPSr (I have found one myself without using my GPSr), but this game/activity/sport is meant to be done with a GPSr. That is the way it was developed.

 

If you want to do something like this without a GPSr, then perhaps you should consider something like letterboxing.

 

Are you inviting me to quit geocaching?

 

I was not replying to you, as is clear from the quote in my post, and from the nesting in "outline" forum view.

 

No, but you were making a statement that someone that wants to geocache without a GPS might consider letterboxing instead. Since I cache without a GPS, I assumed your feelings toward me would be the same.

[+edscott]

 

Your post implies that coordinates obtained by any method except a GPS are inaccurate.

 

Yes that's generally true. How are you going to set coordinates with 5 metre accuracy with a map? Especially in the places where caches are usually hidden. When I have checked my position using topographic maps I find that it is only accurate to about 20-50 metres using UTM codordinates. Trying to read the lat longs with any precision off topo maps is a losing proposition.

 

The thing is that even if you were able to set accurate (to within 5 metres) coordinates with a map then you are abrogating your responsibility by not checking the accuracy against a gps.

 

EDIT: Unless of course you are using Steven Wright's maps.

Wright: I've got a map of the USA...pause...life size.

 

But you immediately confine your alternative method to topographic (and I assume USGS) maps. If you are hand plotting your positions from the margins of the map you are lucky to be within your 20 to 50 meters... but there are other maps and other methods. Again a blanket statement that implies that a GPS is the most accurate method of securing coordinate data is generally false. (there are places where the maps I use are not current in regard to vegetation and recent "improvements", so I don't hide anything there.) I do get my caches checked by a GPS, but only to introduce the necessary error to give them that realistic fuzzy feeling.

[+UncleJimbo]

There are some caches that can be found without a GPSr (I have found one myself without using my GPSr), but this game/activity/sport is meant to be done with a GPSr. That is the way it was developed.

 

If you want to do something like this without a GPSr, then perhaps you should consider something like letterboxing.

 

Are you inviting me to quit geocaching?

 

I was not replying to you, as is clear from the quote in my post, and from the nesting in "outline" forum view.

 

No, but you were making a statement that someone that wants to geocache without a GPS might consider letterboxing instead. Since I cache without a GPS, I assumed your feelings toward me would be the same.

 

Whatever makes you happy.

 

But if someone told you that they did all their Orienteering without a compass, would you still call it Orienteering?

 

Cheers

[+Renegade Knight]

Is it possible to, and if so how do I hide a cache without a GPS device?

Can you use Google Maps or a cellphone or something?

Are you allowed to hide a cache without putting the exact co-ordinates somewhere on the site?

Please answer.

This is one of those questions that if you had the skills to do it (and it can be done) you would not need to ask how. Short version, you need to be able to locate the cache postion within 20' using any of varouse survey methods that you can draw from. There are quite a few methods that you could employ...but it gets back to if you have to ask the question, you don't yet have the skills.

 

If you don't have a GPS and can't afford much, buy a cheap one, or co hide a cache with someone who has a GPS. You will find your local geocaching community has a bunch of folks who can help you with a hide. At least once you know them.

Edited October 3, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[+Renegade Knight]

...But if someone told you that they did all their Orienteering without a compass, would you still call it Orienteering?

...

 

If someone built a house without a hammer would it change that the house got built?

 

Yes, it's orienteering, geocaching, and letterboxing even if you don't have the tool everone assumes you need. You can cache without a GPS, a GPS is nothing more than a tool. A handy tool as it happens for geocaching, but nothing fatal if you don't have one.

[+UncleJimbo]

...But if someone told you that they did all their Orienteering without a compass, would you still call it Orienteering?

...

 

If someone built a house without a hammer would it change that the house got built?

 

Yes, it's orienteering, geocaching, and letterboxing even if you don't have the tool everone assumes you need. You can cache without a GPS, a GPS is nothing more than a tool. A handy tool as it happens for geocaching, but nothing fatal if you don't have one.

 

I am not arguing that you can't do it. Obviously people do find geocaches without a GPSr. The question is a semantic one. If someone played tennis without a tennis racquet, would it be called "tennis"?

 

My understanding, from reading the history on this website and other websites, is that the sport of "geocaching" was invented specifically to utilize GPS receivers. Other "treasure hunting" types of sports or activities (e.g., letterboxing, orienteering, etc.) certainly predated "geocaching". That was my only point, really.

[+Renegade Knight]

...I am not arguing that you can't do it. Obviously people do find geocaches without a GPSr. The question is a semantic one. If someone played tennis without a tennis racquet, would it be called "tennis"?

 

My understanding, from reading the history on this website and other websites, is that the sport of "geocaching" was invented specifically to utilize GPS receivers. Other "treasure hunting" types of sports or activities (e.g., letterboxing, orienteering, etc.) certainly predated "geocaching". That was my only point, really.

 

What evolved into geocaching was when a cache was placed and the location marked with a GPS when selective availability was turned off so that someone else could actually use a GPS to find that location.

 

What's not written is why it grew into geocaching. My opinion isn't that it was the GPS, rather it was that the hunt was enjoyable (just like letterboxing) and success was posted online (unlike letterboxing), first in the newsgroups and later on caching websites. This site has chosen to focus on the GPS but the larger truth is the fun that was always there when combined with the online community is what created geocaching. This site's focus on the GPS...is their own choice and limits some of their ability to grow.

 

However in the end because we are talking on this site about a cache for listing on this site...you are right. The GPS is like a tennis racket is to tennis.

[+QuesterMark]

I hope the OP continues to engage in geocaching and isn't totally turned off by this thread.

[+edscott]

There are some caches that can be found without a GPSr (I have found one myself without using my GPSr), but this game/activity/sport is meant to be done with a GPSr. That is the way it was developed.

 

If you want to do something like this without a GPSr, then perhaps you should consider something like letterboxing.

 

Are you inviting me to quit geocaching?

 

I was not replying to you, as is clear from the quote in my post, and from the nesting in "outline" forum view.

 

No, but you were making a statement that someone that wants to geocache without a GPS might consider letterboxing instead. Since I cache without a GPS, I assumed your feelings toward me would be the same.

 

Whatever makes you happy.

 

But if someone told you that they did all their Orienteering without a compass, would you still call it Orienteering?

 

Cheers

 

Of course.. that's the skill level all good orienteers are striving for. The object is to find all the controls is as little time as possible. Good orienteers may go for several miles without even glancing at their compass. It's all about reading the map. I do geocaching the same way. The compass is a first aid kit if I screw up.

[+UncleJimbo]

But if someone told you that they did all their Orienteering without a compass, would you still call it Orienteering?

 

Of course.. that's the skill level all good orienteers are striving for. The object is to find all the controls is as little time as possible. Good orienteers may go for several miles without even glancing at their compass. It's all about reading the map. I do geocaching the same way. The compass is a first aid kit if I screw up.

 

I don't mean going "several miles without glancing at their compass". I mean not using a compass AT ALL. From what I understand about Orienteering, it is all about using a compass and maps. So, maybe I should have asked, would you call it "Orienteering" if someone said they did it using no compass and no maps at all?

[+edscott]

But if someone told you that they did all their Orienteering without a compass, would you still call it Orienteering?

 

Of course.. that's the skill level all good orienteers are striving for. The object is to find all the controls is as little time as possible. Good orienteers may go for several miles without even glancing at their compass. It's all about reading the map. I do geocaching the same way. The compass is a first aid kit if I screw up.

 

I don't mean going "several miles without glancing at their compass". I mean not using a compass AT ALL. From what I understand about Orienteering, it is all about using a compass and maps. So, maybe I should have asked, would you call it "Orienteering" if someone said they did it using no compass and no maps at all?

 

First .. many people go orienteering without a compass so yes that is fine. Going without a map would be like geocaching without knowing the coordinates of the cache. Maybe you should try that and get back to me in a few years.

Edited October 3, 2007 by edscott

[+UncleJimbo]

But if someone told you that they did all their Orienteering without a compass, would you still call it Orienteering?

 

Of course.. that's the skill level all good orienteers are striving for. The object is to find all the controls is as little time as possible. Good orienteers may go for several miles without even glancing at their compass. It's all about reading the map. I do geocaching the same way. The compass is a first aid kit if I screw up.

 

I don't mean going "several miles without glancing at their compass". I mean not using a compass AT ALL. From what I understand about Orienteering, it is all about using a compass and maps. So, maybe I should have asked, would you call it "Orienteering" if someone said they did it using no compass and no maps at all?

 

First .. many people go orienteering without a compass so yes that is fine. Going without a map would be like geocaching without knowing the coordinates of the cache. Maybe you should try that and get back to me in a few years.

 

Great, we finally agree, and you proved my point. Now I can be done with this thread.

 

Cheers

[gallet]

I do get my caches checked by a GPS, but only to introduce the necessary error to give them that realistic fuzzy feeling.

 

But the 'fuzziness' is already there in the searcher's GPSr is it not.

 

Can you please post a sample of a map that you claim to use that is more accurate than a GPSr for setting a cache. I'd need to see it to believe it.

[+edscott]

I do get my caches checked by a GPS, but only to introduce the necessary error to give them that realistic fuzzy feeling.

 

But the 'fuzziness' is already there in the searcher's GPSr is it not.

 

Can you please post a sample of a map that you claim to use that is more accurate than a GPSr for setting a cache. I'd need to see it to believe it.

 

I'm not sure of the meaning of the first line. The hider's GPS has a margin of error but the searcher's does not??

 

I can send a pdf file (212K) of one close by my house to anyone that wants to see it. I can't link this directly to the site where I get the maps since it requires a fee to enter the area to access the features I need for the required accuracy.

[gallet]

I'm not sure of the meaning of the first line. The hider's GPS has a margin of error but the searcher's does not??

 

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting that using the particular maps you were using were more accurate than a standard GPSr and that you used a GPSr to place it less accurately?

 

Anyway, I have sent a PM for you to send me the file for further perusal.

[+edscott]

I'm not sure of the meaning of the first line. The hider's GPS has a margin of error but the searcher's does not??

 

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting that using the particular maps you were using were more accurate than a standard GPSr and that you used a GPSr to place it less accurately?

 

Anyway, I have sent a PM for you to send me the file for further perusal.

 

well sort of... I place the cache with an aerial photo and other geocaching friends find them and verify the coordinates. Sometimes they report a 6 or 12 ft difference. (.001 - .002) I change it to make it GPS accurate, but know it is the GPS's error not the map's error.

[+Cardinal Red]

I do get my caches checked by a GPS, but only to introduce the necessary error to give them that realistic fuzzy feeling.

But the 'fuzziness' is already there in the searcher's GPSr is it not.

 

Can you please post a sample of a map that you claim to use that is more accurate than a GPSr for setting a cache. I'd need to see it to believe it.

 

I've been reading this exchange with some interest. I know Ed. I've found 16 of his hides and I've cached with him. He is not blowing smoke. This works for him. I need a GPS!

 

One time (very early in my Geocaching "career") I thought he was WAY OFF. Turned out I was in the wrong Datum. Duh. It seems we still agree to disagree on another one that I still say is 40' off. That's it. One cache, 40 feet. Tell me you have not had more and bigger issues with GPS user hiders.

 

We also have a nearby Blue Mountain (popular name apparently). Come photograph them and find Ed's caches to check the coordinates yourself.

[+trainlove]

I would quote a recent remark that fits this topic but I can't find it.

 

Geocaching as a sport requires a GPS.

It's not orienteering or letterboxing.

A cache has to have coordinates.

But some Virtuals and Earth's can be located by reading the writeup (but they still have coords) and all Events can be attended without taking your GPS but where's the fun with that. Most events I go to have a nearby cache or 2 that I have not yet found.

 

A cache finder can do whatever he wants to find the cache and I personally know someone who has over 1500 finds without using a GPS.

 

Using National Geographic Topo! I was able, at the highest scale (or lowest?) and highest magnification to get accurate coords for a multi town line intersection. It was only off by 2 feet, but I guess my GPS at that time was having the best EPE I had ever seen.

Edited October 4, 2007 by trainlove

[+Harry Dolphin]

In case no one has quoted the guidelines:

You as the owner of the cache must visit the site and obtain the coordinates with a GPS. GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

[+edscott]

In case no one has quoted the guidelines:

You as the owner of the cache must visit the site and obtain the coordinates with a GPS. GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

 

Yes, I don't think anyone is really discussing rules here. The rules are clearly written. But they are questioning the possibility of establishing accurate coordinates by methods other than by using a GPS. They forget that if a satelite can tell you exactly where you are with numbers, it's not too much of a stretch for it to also send a photo and show you where you are.. or where you want to be. Now if I was using a sextant and a magnet floating in a cup of water I could see the skepticism.....

[+Harry Dolphin]

[Yes, I don't think anyone is really discussing rules here. The rules are clearly written. But they are questioning the possibility of establishing accurate coordinates by methods other than by using a GPS. They forget that if a satelite can tell you exactly where you are with numbers, it's not too much of a stretch for it to also send a photo and show you where you are.. or where you want to be. Now if I was using a sextant and a magnet floating in a cup of water I could see the skepticism.....

 

Okay. I looked at Topozone. Very useful resource. But it's only accurate to 1 second. That's only good for 60' of accuracy. Anyone who uses it with the DD MM.MMM format is confusing precision and accuracy. (And I use Topozone a lot for benchmarking, with that realization.) That being said, I do not know what the accuracy is for Google Maps. But I doubt that it's much better.

[gallet]

That being said, I do not know what the accuracy is for Google Maps.

 

Googlemaps are pretty good when I've checked it against my GPSr it appears to have the same level of accuracy.

 

Here's a photo form topozone (published for review purposes) It doesn't look to me that a cache could be placed with 5 meter accuracy on a regular basis. Maybe a cache could be placed that was accurate enough to find but remember every doubling of the 'ground zero' radius requires a 4 fold increase in the search area. So even if the accuracy dropped from 5 metres to 10 metres then that would take four times as long to find.

 

[+edscott]

[Yes, I don't think anyone is really discussing rules here. The rules are clearly written. But they are questioning the possibility of establishing accurate coordinates by methods other than by using a GPS. They forget that if a satelite can tell you exactly where you are with numbers, it's not too much of a stretch for it to also send a photo and show you where you are.. or where you want to be. Now if I was using a sextant and a magnet floating in a cup of water I could see the skepticism.....

 

Okay. I looked at Topozone. Very useful resource. But it's only accurate to 1 second. That's only good for 60' of accuracy. Anyone who uses it with the DD MM.MMM format is confusing precision and accuracy. (And I use Topozone a lot for benchmarking, with that realization.) That being said, I do not know what the accuracy is for Google Maps. But I doubt that it's much better.

 

Actually the heading is rounded off to 1 but the data is really at .1 so the accuracy is at 40 degree latitude is about a 5 x 6 square. If you play around with your entries you can see the marker adjust.

Edited October 6, 2007 by edscott

[+edscott]

That being said, I do not know what the accuracy is for Google Maps.

 

Googlemaps are pretty good when I've checked it against my GPSr it appears to have the same level of accuracy.

 

Here's a photo form topozone (published for review purposes) It doesn't look to me that a cache could be placed with 5 meter accuracy on a regular basis. Maybe a cache could be placed that was accurate enough to find but remember every doubling of the 'ground zero' radius requires a 4 fold increase in the search area. So even if the accuracy dropped from 5 metres to 10 metres then that would take four times as long to find.

 

 

Ok.. thanks for printing the map I sent you. I am adding the text I sent with it so others get the total picture.

 

<Hi Gallet.. This photo is not a difficult one to interpret, but I chose it

for that reason. The cache is one of my hides and has been well received.

When you open geocaching.com one of the featured photos in the home page

rotation was taken there.

 

The first key here is the lake and the other is the mix of evergreen and

deciduous forest. The evergreens are the darkest grey around the lake. The

route to the cache is very simple using the photo. Go to the east end of

the lake and find the finger of evergreens extending east. The finger

bends south at the very end and points to a small stream that is barely visible

through the trees in the aerial. Go to that southern point of the

evergreens and find the cache. This photo was taken near mid day so no

correction for shadows is needed. An early morning or late afternoon photo

does require a bit of geometry to zero in for hiding purposes, but for

finding a cache I do it by instinct.

 

If you zoom in so the red X is about .5 inches across.. Or maybe your eyes

are better than mine and that's not necessary... there are loads of other

details that can be gleaned from this photo. The trails and stream network

show up .. Not completely, but in short bursts that can be connected

together to form a pattern. The lighter greys beyond the evergreen trees

are patches of mountain laurel, while the lightest grey areas are normal

woodland. A couple clearings are also visible and here and there a boulder

shows through the trees. Some photos have less to work with and some have

more.

 

If I am searching for a cache less detail is not much of a problem since I

am used to navigating several hundred meters maintaining a perfectly

straight line through my years of orienteering. If I am hiding a cache I

only use a spot that I am totally certain will be totally correct with map

and GPS.>

 

I certainly understand if someone is unable to read the map well enough to find or place a cache, but dont blame the map.

Edited October 6, 2007 by edscott

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

[Yes, I don't think anyone is really discussing rules here. The rules are clearly written. But they are questioning the possibility of establishing accurate coordinates by methods other than by using a GPS. They forget that if a satelite can tell you exactly where you are with numbers, it's not too much of a stretch for it to also send a photo and show you where you are.. or where you want to be. Now if I was using a sextant and a magnet floating in a cup of water I could see the skepticism.....

 

Okay. I looked at Topozone. Very useful resource. But it's only accurate to 1 second. That's only good for 60' of accuracy. Anyone who uses it with the DD MM.MMM format is confusing precision and accuracy. (And I use Topozone a lot for benchmarking, with that realization.) That being said, I do not know what the accuracy is for Google Maps. But I doubt that it's much better.

 

Well, for starters, I used to think Google Maps/Earth was awesome with accuracy (just because it's Google and it's satellite pictures but no real good reason that makes sense) but now I think it stinks. My brother-in-law had a recent hide where he had GPS bounce/coords issues and since every finder gave him coords that were 50-100 ft. different from each other, he decided to use Google Earth to set the matter straight. When we went to go look for it, we would've never found it if it weren't for the very obvious hint (and the fact that it's a fairly easy cache in a somewhat open area). At the find itself our GPS said we were 117 ft. from the cache! (Harry D, since you live just over the river from here if you're curious to check it out, it's the "Marksun Magical Micro Tour 3" cache just north of the Bronx on the Bronxville/Mt. Vernon border).

 

Edscott, as someone who has been a "map geek" since childhood and used to do some occasional orienteering, I have always greatly admired your ability to use maps instead of GPS and I do believe that even with the 60' accuracy issues that Harry Dolphin notes that a good USGS map would probably be as good as a novice hider with a GPS to give coords (and obviously you have had no issue with your hides ) but I don't think the average GPS user is that good or knowledgable with maps to do it correctly. I'm not saying that people couldn't learn to do it (in fact, on some old locationless finds and the occasional waymark I have used maps to confirm my GPS readings before posting), but I think for most people playing this game they will have an easier and more accurate time using a GPS and that's why the rule. You are unusually skilled and have proven you can do otherwise, but for most there's a reason it's there.

Edited October 6, 2007 by HaLiJuSaPa

[+edscott]

Well, for starters, I used to think Google Maps/Earth was awesome with accuracy (just because it's Google and it's satellite pictures but no real good reason that makes sense) but now I think it stinks. My brother-in-law had a recent hide where he had GPS bounce/coords issues and since every finder gave him coords that were 50-100 ft. different from each other, he decided to use Google Earth to set the matter straight. When we went to go look for it, we would've never found it if it weren't for the very obvious hint (and the fact that it's a fairly easy cache in a somewhat open area). At the find itself our GPS said we were 117 ft. from the cache! (Harry D, since you live just over the river from here if you're curious to check it out, it's the "Marksun Magical Micro Tour 3" cache just north of the Bronx on the Bronxville/Mt. Vernon border).

 

Edscott, as someone who has been a "map geek" since childhood and used to do some occasional orienteering, I have always greatly admired your ability to use maps instead of GPS and I do believe that even with the 60' accuracy issues that Harry Dolphin notes that a good USGS map would probably be as good as a novice hider with a GPS to give coords (and obviously you have had no issue with your hides ) but I don't think the average GPS user is that good or knowledgable with maps to do it correctly. I'm not saying that people couldn't learn to do it (in fact, on some old locationless finds and the occasional waymark I have used maps to confirm my GPS readings before posting), but I think for most people playing this game they will have an easier and more accurate time using a GPS and that's why the rule. You are unusually skilled and have proven you can do otherwise, but for most there's a reason it's there.

 

Can't comment on Google photos, but there are plenty of errors on their normal street maps so I have been hesitant to use their photos. I do agree that the GPS rule for hiders needs to be in place. I want the caches I search for to have the best coordinates that the hider can provide. It just really bugs me when people with little or no experience with maps and aerial photos say the only to get accurate coordinates is with a GPS

Edited October 8, 2007 by edscott